Should Mind Flayers be able to eat non-humanoid brains?

[No brains]

I found it peculiar that Extract Brain specifically affects Humanoids. While I understand that Flayers would go after sapient brains, there are creatures of other types that could probably count for brain extraction. Would 'humanoid' fey count? How about Apes and other potentially sapient Beasts? Giants? How about those variants of Dwarves and Elves from the DMG that are Celestials?

They aren't exactly new anymore, but with non-humanoid PCs, like Fey and Monstrosities, it becomes an important technicality to consider. It's especially weird when Warforged count as Humanoids, and therefore have edible brains. It could turn a Mind Flayer fight into a weird case where Satyr bard becomes the tank and magically skull-parries a 10d10 shot that could kill a barbarian.

How would you run it?

[Skrum]

I would run it by common sense - if they have a brain, and are of roughly human sized, than a mind flayer can latch on and use extract. 5e has put very little thought into creature types and wouldn't hang myself because of silly oversights like this.

[Keltest]

Im not sure what creatures there are of human size that have brains that arent explicitly magical/supernatural creatures and/or nonsapient TBH.

[OldTrees1]

I would rule that Illithids are able to
1) Eat any brain they want, and some they don't.
2) Use Extract Brain on any brain housed in a skull. The lore is, the Illithid tentacles corrode their way into the skull and then they extract the brain. So I might not allow this to work on a Brain in a Jar monster, but I could see an Illithid doing to anything with a skull bigger than the cross section of a tentacle. (although a strength check might be required to lift heavy brains).

Notably this means I would rule that a warforged wizard with a bat familiar would not fear extraction. They are able to focus on the other dangers instead. The Illithid could eat the bat's brain, but doing so would be tricky in combat and generally unappealing. The warforged might make a good thrall.

[Unoriginal]

I found it peculiar that Extract Brain specifically affects Humanoids. While I understand that Flayers would go after sapient brains, there are creatures of other types that could probably count for brain extraction. Would 'humanoid' fey count? How about Apes and other potentially sapient Beasts? Giants? How about those variants of Dwarves and Elves from the DMG that are Celestials?

They aren't exactly new anymore, but with non-humanoid PCs, like Fey and Monstrosities, it becomes an important technicality to consider. It's especially weird when Warforged count as Humanoids, and therefore have edible brains. It could turn a Mind Flayer fight into a weird case where Satyr bard becomes the tank and magically skull-parries a 10d10 shot that could kill a barbarian.

How would you run it?

Mind Flayers can only eat Humanoids' brains and get something out of it. Eating a fey's brain would be like an human eating dirt. Trying to eat a Celestial's brain would be like a human trying to eat thoughts about moral behavior.

I would consider that Warforged don't have edible brains either.

So regardless of if the Mind Flayer can reduce the target to 0 HP or not, my ruling is that the brain is eaten only if the target is an humanoid with an organic brain.

[Bohandas]

Mind Flayers can only eat Humanoids' brains and get something out of it. Eating a fey's brain would be like an human eating dirt. Trying to eat a Celestial's brain would be like a human trying to eat thoughts about moral behavior.

I would consider that Warforged don't have edible brains either.

Definitely not. That would be like eating a typewriter.

[Unoriginal]

Definitely not. That would be like eating a typewriter.

Or an hard drive.

[Derges]

Im not sure what creatures there are of human size that have brains that arent explicitly magical/supernatural creatures and/or nonsapient TBH.

Centuars, Satyrs, Changlings and Thri-kreen are playable non-humanoids that I can imagine a Mind Flayer wanting to snack on.

[Keravath]

Centuars, Satyrs, Changlings and Thri-kreen are playable non-humanoids that I can imagine a Mind Flayer wanting to snack on.

There are also Fairies (Fey), Autognome (Construct), Plasmoid (Ooze) as playable races besides those mentioned above. Whether these would have a brain a mindflayer could consume is up to the DM. :)

[Muad'dib]

Mind Flayers can only eat Humanoids' brains and get something out of it. Eating a fey's brain would be like an human eating dirt. Trying to eat a Celestial's brain would be like a human trying to eat thoughts about moral behavior.

I would consider that Warforged don't have edible brains either.

So regardless of if the Mind Flayer can reduce the target to 0 HP or not, my ruling is that the brain is eaten only if the target is an humanoid with an organic brain.

It's kind of ridiculous that, RAW, warforged are a valid target. Wizards really didn't even bother thinking creature types through at all this edition.

[Mastikator]

Personally I would prefer it if the description was a bit more vague, like "sapient creature with a brain". So it depends, a lemure is not valid but an imp is. And a human with feeblemind cast on them probably shouldn't be valid either IMO.

[NontheistCleric]

It's kind of ridiculous that, RAW, warforged are a valid target. Wizards really didn't even bother thinking creature types through at all this edition.

To be fair, the mind flayer would probably be able to crack apart a warforged's head as easily as any other humanoid's skull, so it's not unreasonable to let them be similarly damaged. There would be no brain inside to eat (at least in the case of a typical warforged), so the mind flayer would be rather disappointed.

[KorvinStarmast]

Mind Flayers can only eat Humanoids' brains and get something out of it. Eating a fey's brain would be like an human eating dirt. Trying to eat a Celestial's brain would be like a human trying to eat thoughts about moral behavior. Nice mental picture.
I would consider that Warforged don't have edible brains either. Hadn't thought of that, but I think that makes sense.

Definitely not. That would be like eating a typewriter. Without salsa.

There are also Fairies (Fey), Autognome (Construct), Plasmoid (Ooze) as playable races besides those mentioned above. Whether these would have a brain a mindflayer could consume is up to the DM. :) The Plasmoid would probably be, for a mind flayer, like eating strawberry jam, but as I don't allow plasmoid PCs in my games I don't have to think of that.

It's kind of ridiculous that, RAW, warforged are a valid target. Wizards really didn't even bother thinking creature types through at all this edition. Maybe their brain isn't a machine, though, but an organic plug in app to a machine. IIRC, warforged are the result of something like scientific experimentation. They seem to be a hybrid, given their humanoid classification.

To be fair, the mind flayer would probably be able to crack apart a warforged's head as easily as any other humanoid's skull, so it's not unreasonable to let them be similarly damaged. There would be no brain inside to eat (at least in the case of a typical warforged), so the mind flayer would be rather disappointed. See above, but it may also have too many wires imbedded into it to be appetizing. Sort of like trying to eat a fish head with the hooks still in it.

[Derges]

There are also Fairies (Fey), Autognome (Construct), Plasmoid (Ooze) as playable races besides those mentioned above. Whether these would have a brain a mindflayer could consume is up to the DM. :)

Yeah, I didn't list those as Plasmids and Autognomes are a tough sell.

Fairy brains would at best be an appetiser, I'm not sure whether they'd be more like peanuts or bruschetta.

[NontheistCleric]

Maybe their brain isn't a machine, though, but an organic plug in app to a machine. IIRC, warforged are the result of something like scientific experimentation. They seem to be a hybrid, given their humanoid classification...

...it may also have too many wires imbedded into it to be appetizing. Sort of like trying to eat a fish head with the hooks still in it.

I'm not sure having a brain is necessarily essential to being a humanoid. It's not clear that warforged have good analogues to any other internal organs, so I don't think we should assume they have something that can strictly be called a brain, although they obviously have something that fulfils equivalent cognitive functions.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm not sure having a brain is necessarily essential to being a humanoid. It's not clear that warforged have good analogues to any other internal organs, so I don't think we should assume they have something that can strictly be called a brain, although they obviously have something that fulfils equivalent cognitive functions. Creature type = humanoid, not Creature type = Construct.
Edition under discussion is 5e.

[NontheistCleric]

Creature type = humanoid, not Creature type = Construct.
Edition under discussion is 5e.

I never said construct, so I don't know what this is supposed to mean.

[Oramac]

Personally I would prefer it if the description was a bit more vague, like "sapient creature with a brain". So it depends, a lemure is not valid but an imp is. And a human with feeblemind cast on them probably shouldn't be valid either IMO.

I've basically always played it this way, RAW be damned. I figure if the creature's intelligence is high enough for the Illithid to consider it a threat, and it could reasonably have a brain, then it's a potential target.

Hell, technically a zombie still has a human brain in its skull (so long as it hasn't decomposed yet). It would taste like ass, but in theory an Illithid could eat a zombie brain too.

[Muad'dib]

I'm not sure having a brain is necessarily essential to being a humanoid. It's not clear that warforged have good analogues to any other internal organs, so I don't think we should assume they have something that can strictly be called a brain, although they obviously have something that fulfils equivalent cognitive functions.
If you ignore warforged, every other humanoid I can think of has a brain. Warforged are only considered humanoids this edition because someone at wizards thought having the construct creature types would somehow be overpowered. But now autognomes are a thing soi just treat warforged as construction now too.

[Muad'dib]

Maybe their brain isn't a machine, though, but an organic plug in app to a machine. IIRC, warforged are the result of something like scientific experimentation. They seem to be a hybrid, given their humanoid classification.

Warforged aren't machines. They're constructs bright to life via magic. They have muscles made if wood (seemingly) and little else that seems organic. They have not been noted to have organs of any kind. If they have a brain, it could just as easily be a rock covered in runes. And their humanoid type is a weird anomaly new to this edition with no basis in lore. They were constructs in previous editions.

[Psyren]

It is a bit odd that even the Ettin Ceremorph (giant mindflayer from Bigbys) only eats humanoid brains too; you'd think if any mindflayer could eat a giant it would be that one.

[NontheistCleric]

If you ignore warforged, every other humanoid I can think of has a brain. Warforged are only considered humanoids this edition because someone at wizards thought having the construct creature types would somehow be overpowered. But now autognomes are a thing soi just treat warforged as construction now too.

Yet at no point is it actually said that having a brain is a requirement of being a humanoid. So there is no inherent problem with warforged being humanoid, brainless, or both at the same time.

[Muad'dib]

Yet at no point is it actually said that having a brain is a requirement of being a humanoid. So there is no inherent problem with warforged being humanoid, brainless, or both at the same time.
There are a lot of things not said about humanoid anatomy that we just take for granted because the game isn't actually concerned with portraying accurate anatomy. And again, the only reason warforged are currently humanoid is a weak balance issue provide by the devs that had since been ignored for autognomes. Warforged being humanoid is an anomaly they we have the receipts for and should not be used as any kind of justification for what should or shouldn't be a humanoid or what the definition of humanoid in the game should imply.

[NontheistCleric]

I'm not saying it implies anything, but the fact is that warforged are, by RAW, humanoids. I don't think this necessarily means they have brains, but it does have mechanical repercussions, like a mind flayer's extraction attack working on them, and leaving aside that there would be no brain for the flayer to get to after cracking the warforged's head open, I don't see anything inherently wrong with that.

[Mastikator]

According to lore, mindflayers eat intellect devourers. It's not a healthy meal to them, more like burger or pizza, but they can live off it for a while.

[Cikomyr2]

I'm not saying it implies anything, but the fact is that warforged are, by RAW, humanoids. I don't think this necessarily means they have brains, but it does have mechanical repercussions, like a mind flayer's extraction attack working on them, and leaving aside that there would be no brain for the flayer to get to after cracking the warforged's head open, I don't see anything inherently wrong with that.

I feel they were classified as humanoid solely for balance issue so they wouldn't be immune to spells targeting individuals. So insisting on RAW would he misleading. RAW is sometimes sill

[Psyren]

I'm not saying it implies anything, but the fact is that warforged are, by RAW, humanoids. I don't think this necessarily means they have brains, but it does have mechanical repercussions, like a mind flayer's extraction attack working on them, and leaving aside that there would be no brain for the flayer to get to after cracking the warforged's head open, I don't see anything inherently wrong with that.

That isn't how 5e works. Rules in 5e use natural language, so if something says "the ceremorph kills the target by extracting and devouring its brain" then you're expected to apply reasoning to that; the "by" clause means "if the monster somehow can't do that, the target doesn't actually get killed."

[Dr.Samurai]

Mind flayers should be able to eat whatever they want! I'm so sick of people trying to control them. It's time we leave visitors from the Far Realm alone, and stop using their tentacles and formidable psychic powers as reasons to oppress and regulate them!

[PhoenixPhyre]

Personally, I'm fine with them eating whatever brains they want. And I like the idea that mind flayer can subsist on non-sapient brains (ie animals), but find it thin and unsatisfying gruel. It explains why they're actually evil (well, in the main)--they don't have to eat living people, but choose to because they like it better.

My setting's variant of them actually goes one step further--mind flayers can eat normal (mushy) food for sustenance, but to reproduce and mature they need intelligent brains. And the evil subset likes (which is part of why they're the evil subset) eating intelligent brains, especially those that have been tortured/manipulated into a state of constant fear. They find those emotions give it a particular flavor they enjoy. The non-evil ones get donations from volunteers. Or some of them work/live in the context of a city-state that gives them access to condemned prisoners as both cerebromorphosis hosts and catalyzing food.

[Unoriginal]

I don't think it's ever been implied Mind Flayers are restricted to eating brains.

In 3.X at least they cooked the rest of the body for later.

[Keltest]

I don't think it's ever been implied Mind Flayers are restricted to eating brains.

In 3.X at least they cooked the rest of the body for later.

BG3 says that even if they can eat other foods, brains are essential to their diet.

[Unoriginal]

BG3 says that even if they can eat other foods, brains are essential to their diet.

That has been part of their lore since the start, yes.

To my knowledge, at least.

[JackPhoenix]

Maybe their brain isn't a machine, though, but an organic plug in app to a machine. IIRC, warforged are the result of something like scientific experimentation. They seem to be a hybrid, given their humanoid classification.

The humanoid classification is there because warforged had the misfortune to be printed before WotC was willing to publish PC races with non-humanoid creature type. They absolutely should've been constructs with autognome's Healing Machine (Living Construct originally) trait.


It is a bit odd that even the Ettin Ceremorph (giant mindflayer from Bigbys) only eats humanoid brains too; you'd think if any mindflayer could eat a giant it would be that one.

WotC being bad at editing their books, amongst other things, news at 6.

[Unoriginal]

It explains why they're actually evil (well, in the main)

I think it's important to go back to that point:

Illithids living in the typical Illithid society are a bunch of ruthlessly imperialistic slavers who torture and mutilate people for pleasure and profit.

Eating people's brains isn't what make them evil (and given that you have plenty of neutral and good beings who eat sapient beings when they don't need to do that to survive, it's safe to say that it isn't enough in itself to get one of the evil alignments).

[NontheistCleric]

That isn't how 5e works. Rules in 5e use natural language, so if something says "the ceremorph kills the target by extracting and devouring its brain" then you're expected to apply reasoning to that; the "by" clause means "if the monster somehow can't do that, the target doesn't actually get killed."

Agreed, but the mind flayer's Extract Brain applies damage to a grappled target first, and only extracts the brain if that damage reduces that target to 0 HP, which is why I argued the damage would apply but not the brain extraction (since there is no brain).

[Anonymouswizard]

Warforged already have anatomy loosely analogous to organic humanoids (IIRC stone bones and wooden muscles at minimum), I don't see why they wouldn't have a thinking unit located in their noggin. It almost certainly wouldn't be edible, but it would be extractable.

I also think the reason why the Illithid eating 'bug' was never picked up is because they only have a significant canon presence in two settings, one of which is probably not getting brought into 5e and the other (and their originator) having it's own strains of psionic nasties. Does Eberron even have illithids? I know I'd probably mostly use them in it as isolated transhumanists who wanted immortality and power but not lichdom or the like. If it does they probably don't work like the standard ones, Eberron seems to reinterpret everything but dwarves.

As to the ability, I'd need to pull out my book to check, but I'd probably run it as 'humanoid=human body shape' rather than referring to the creature type.

[NontheistCleric]

Warforged already have anatomy loosely analogous to organic humanoids (IIRC stone bones and wooden muscles at minimum), I don't see why they wouldn't have a thinking unit located in their noggin. It almost certainly wouldn't be edible, but it would be extractable.

The keyword here is 'loosely', though. I wouldn't assume warforged have structures that are appreciably similar to hearts or lungs or even vocal cords, so I'm not sure the default assumption should be that they have something that could be called a brain in their heads.

After all, if you were building an artificial humanoid, there's no reason you couldn't, say, put the thinking equipment in their torso instead, or even have it distributed in a more diffuse fashion about the body. Or maybe it is in their heads, but not in a form discrete enough to be equivalent to a 'brain', and trying to extract it would just inflict structural damage to the head as a whole (and the mind flayer's Extract Brain does deal damage before any extraction or lack thereof takes place).

Of course, some warforged might have brains, or at least something similar enough to count as such, but I wouldn't assume any given warforged does.

[JackPhoenix]

Does Eberron even have illithids? I know I'd probably mostly use them in it as isolated transhumanists who wanted immortality and power but not lichdom or the like. If it does they probably don't work like the standard ones, Eberron seems to reinterpret everything but dwarves.

Yes, they are Daelkyr's servant race, similar to Dolgrim/Dolgaunt, created from Gith (who come from either alternate reality or an unknown world destroyed by Daelkyr). Xor'chylic is a governor of the Droaam city of Graywall, serving the daughters of Sora Kell. It hates Daelkyr. There may be another friendly mind flayer in Stormreach, depending how canon you consider DDO to be (some stuff from the game made it into the splatbook concerning the city), called Fred, because nobody could pronounce its true name.

[Bohandas]

Warforged already have anatomy loosely analogous to organic humanoids (IIRC stone bones and wooden muscles at minimum), I don't see why they wouldn't have a thinking unit located in their noggin. It almost certainly wouldn't be edible, but it would be extractable.


The inside might be as hard as the outside and not be able to be forced through the hole

And that's ignorign the possibility that the head and everything in it might all be made out of materials harder than bone.

[Keltest]

The inside might be as hard as the outside and not be able to be forced through the hole

And that's ignorign the possibility that the head and everything in it might all be made out of materials harder than bone.

Presumably, thats what the attack roll is for. Mind Flayers can get through helmets as well as skulls, if you hold still long enough. I see no reason why an Illithid can't pull out whatever stuff is inside the head of a Warforged, theyre still vulnerable to decapitation so massive brutal trauma to the head would still kill them.

[Unoriginal]

Presumably, thats what the attack roll is for. Mind Flayers can get through helmets as well as skulls, if you hold still long enough.

Indeed, though it's both the attack roll and the damage roll, since the Mind Flayer only get to dig a full hole into the skull and eat the brain if that attack reduces the target to 0 HPs.

Good point for the helmet

[Mastikator]

Craniums are pretty hard, it takes a lot to penetrate. Mind flayers have excellent dental for sure.

[Anonymouswizard]

I think I can summarise my intended point as: instead of complaining that it works come up with a justification that makes sense to you. Or houserule it if you really just can't stand it.

[OldTrees1]

Craniums are pretty hard, it takes a lot to penetrate. Mind flayers have excellent dental for sure.

Illithids use their corrosive tentacles to bore into the skull and extract the brain. Maybe they have excellent dermatology?

[tokek]

Yeah, I didn't list those as Plasmids and Autognomes are a tough sell.

Fairy brains would at best be an appetiser, I'm not sure whether they'd be more like peanuts or bruschetta.

Fairy brains would be like magic mushrooms. But in a really high dose - potentially lethal dose. Nobody would eat that much magic mushroom and be in a good state afterwards

[Psyren]

Changelings are also Fey now. Apparently looking humanoid doesn't change their brains however.