Gestalt Bards, with non-gestalt characters?

[Kantolin]

I suppose before I go any further, I would like to make the following perfectly clear:

- I am aware that this is not how you are expected to use Gestalt Rules
- I in no way think Bards are a weak class - they happen to be one of my favorites

Okay, that out of the way. ^_^ I was considering making a game with six players. 3 would be required to be one of the seafaring races, while the other three could be either from that same seafaring race or any of the other slightly-improved base races.

Now, the seafaring race, relevantly, are Gestalt ____/Bards. The ___ can be selected by the player; essentially, you pick your class as normal, and bard comes along with the package. The other races, now, do not have this significant boost.

I am very much aware that this is quite a power jump of the seafaring race. What I'm curious about, however, is just how unbalancing is this change - I'm aiming for 'gives the seafarers a big edge' rather than 'makes the other races simply unplayable'.

So, just how powerful of a boost is this? If you are playing a non-seafarer in this campaign, would you be completely overshadowed, or would it be more of 'They have an edge, but I'm still very much able to contribute'?

[mabriss lethe]

hrrm... offhand. That's a big jump in power. two additional good save, 6th level armored spellcasting. oodles of skill points, nevermind bardic music and knowledge. I think it's a little too much.

[bugsysservant]

Well, I not that big a fan of gestalt, so I generally don't use it, but lets see: a bard will really only be benefiting a character in gestalt in two ways: skill points, and two good saves. Bardic music is good, and so is bard spellcasting, but both would take up the actions of other, better abilities of specialized characters. My advice would be to avoid monsters with save or lose attacks, and to advise against the non-gestalt players playing skill monkeys.

[KIDS]

Depending on what classes these "others" were playing, they'd still be able to contribute, but giving someone a free bard class on one side is hugely powerful. i.e. a normal bard is slightly underpowered (mostly because of skewed abilities progression and terrible number of spells per day at earyl levels) but not that underpowered.

However, if you think that this

'gives the seafarers a big edge' rather than 'makes the other races simply unplayable'.
you are entirely correct in your assumption. It's not that terrible, but note that it will breed some jealousy so be careful with possible squabbling in the group.

[AstralFire]

So, just how powerful of a boost is this? If you are playing a non-seafarer in this campaign, would you be completely overshadowed, or would it be more of 'They have an edge, but I'm still very much able to contribute'?

It depends on the level of optimization and level of restraint the seafarers have, as well as your combat focus.

Low optimization/high restraint/low combat means it won't offer a significant difference in power, as it'll be paired with other classes for concept.

The inverse gets you "completely overshadowed."

I would simply add 2 extra skill points, the ability to pick any two skills as always class skills, and give them Bardic Music and Lore progressions racially. That's still fairly (over)powerful without having a ridiculous variance in balance depending on who's doing what with it.

I advise against this entire idea, though.

[Nerd-o-rama]

...The Little Mermaid RPG?

[Kizara]

...The Little Mermaid RPG?

Lol.

As for the OP, yea its pretty overpowered/unfair to the others. I know I'd demand to get something if I had to/wanted to play something other then sea bards.

Some ideas:

1) Give the sea bards +2-3 LA. Give them a few small ability boosts (+2 dex, +2 cha), natural attacks (tail? bite?) and movement forms (swim speed) on top of the bard progression.

2) Have the sea bards gain xp at half or 3/4 the normal rate (the 'rest' of the XP powering their 'bard side').

3) Give the other players some kind of LARGE advantage such as:

a) Free LA discount of 2. So, they can play a drow for instance. I might be alright with a LA 0 drow if my fellow PC gets free bard levels. I get free SR and signifigant ability boosts.

b) Much more generous ability score generation method along with free feats. Like, 10-15 more points on a point buy, and 2 feats takable whenever they want. Also, better starting wealth (only relivant if you're starting 6+ really).


Personally, I think 3a is your best option, and will ensure everyone will have fun. I know I'd look more into your campaign if I could play a LA 1 half-dragon for instance, opens up alot of possibilities.

[Snadgeros]

Perhaps you should divide your races into two categories and give players a choice. Make "seafarers" gestalt bards and "landlubbers" gestalt rogues or some other land-based class. That way they're both getting skill points and class abilities (bardic music/sneak attack) and I'd say they come off about even.

EDIT: Another idea is simply to make "seafarers" into lizardfolk or some other water-creature from the MM.

[Kantolin]

Hm.

Interesting responses here, but the general gist seems to be dislike.

I suppose that makes sense, after all. I'll go with my second option, then, and simply make a single-race game - as I wanted it to focus on the seafarers anyway.

Thank you for the responses.