The etiquette of minding our own businesses

[ciopo]

Greetings all, I shall bring up some old story.

a fellow player in a campaign a couple years ago or thereabouts had a wildfire druid.

They ended up being grappled by a flying monster, which was excedingly clear we could not fight at all. The GM told us straight that monster was going to fly away and so that character chances of living were very low, it was a "no hands held" campaign, being ravenloft based.

The player was unsure about what to do about the situation, at the time it seemed to me we were in the kind of groupthink brainstorm mode that sometimes happen when we have to find some shenanigans to save a character, the other players were chiming in.

I said they could summon their wildfire spirit, and use it's teleport to escape the grapple. I didn't insist on that being a viable solution more than mentioning it ( it was a play by chat, not a voice channel, so that wasn't "lost in the chatter")

In the end no such thing was done, and the character ended up death.

Would you feel I should have insisted/remarked more about the wildfire teleport? My feeling is that it's the player agency deciding what their character do, and trying to be helpful on that is a slippery slope , evne the "brainstorm mode" irks me slightly


thoughts? thanks :)

[NontheistCleric]

It's okay to brainstorm. After all, it's a group game and the group deserves to at least have some input on actions that might affect everyone.

At the end of the day, though, it's up to a player what they do with their character, and they may choose not to take any advice given, or ask everyone to shut up and let them figure it out themselves, which is their right.

[kazaryu]

Greetings all, I shall bring up some old story.

a fellow player in a campaign a couple years ago or thereabouts had a wildfire druid.

They ended up being grappled by a flying monster, which was excedingly clear we could not fight at all. The GM told us straight that monster was going to fly away and so that character chances of living were very low, it was a "no hands held" campaign, being ravenloft based.

The player was unsure about what to do about the situation, at the time it seemed to me we were in the kind of groupthink brainstorm mode that sometimes happen when we have to find some shenanigans to save a character, the other players were chiming in.

I said they could summon their wildfire spirit, and use it's teleport to escape the grapple. I didn't insist on that being a viable solution more than mentioning it ( it was a play by chat, not a voice channel, so that wasn't "lost in the chatter")

In the end no such thing was done, and the character ended up death.

Would you feel I should have insisted/remarked more about the wildfire teleport? My feeling is that it's the player agency deciding what their character do, and trying to be helpful on that is a slippery slope , evne the "brainstorm mode" irks me slightly


thoughts? thanks :)

oh damn, yeah this is a tough question. the number of times i have an idea for what a player can do, but im nervous to suggest it because i don't want to be seen as trying to play their character for them...
personally, in that type of situation, i'd have probably followed up with something like "hey just wanted to make sure this was seen.." because you'd think it would be hard to miss something that is typed, and yet it happens, especially in a relatively quick moving chat.

that said the key things for me are:

1. the suggestion is a reasonable one, its not some crazy hijinks, its explicitly something within the design space of the game
2. based on the story it doesn't seem the suggestion was acknowledged by anyone. obviously if it was acknowledged then dismissed, thats a different story. which, to me, indicates it may have been overlooked.
3. its something that should be relatively apparent to the character even if the player isn't thinking about this. Which, to me, is key. if it were something a little more convoluted then i might be less willing to share the idea, or I might try to suggest a portion of my thought like "is there any way your wildfire spirit could help you?"

[MoiMagnus]

Play-by-post makes it much harder compared to IRL.
Since IRL, you have social cues that informs you on whether the player is actually interested in having some help through brainstorming.
(Though some players can be quite oblivious to those social cues and assume that everyone is interested)

[Unoriginal]

My feeling is that it's the player agency deciding what their character do, and trying to be helpful on that is a slippery slope

A slippery slope to what? People having fun and enjoying Dungeons & Dragons with friends?


D&D is a game with a lot of things to keep track off. Unless the player in question requests otherwise, there is nothing wrong with reminding them of something, be it a rule, an ability of their character, an ability of your character, or just something that happened in the lore or in a previous session.

Reminding people and making suggestion isn't insisting, dictating or demanding they do something.

Obviously if the player doesn't want it, don't do it, but otherwise there is nothing wrong.

In fact, agency requires knowing all the options available.

[Sigreid]

My opinion is what you did was good. You had an idea and through out a suggestion before leaving it to the player to do or not. A fine example of being helpful but not bossy.

Side note, my wizard was grabbed by that flying creature and was able to use wall of force right in front of it to cause both to fall. He barely survived because the party raced to revive him.

[da newt]

IMO providing suggestions / options is good team play - insisting another Player do the thing you thought of is crappy.

I have played with people who believed that anyone other than the Player that tries to help by offering options / suggestions is 'metagaming' and therefore it's bad behavior, but I disagree.

I do like to RP suggestions / options as my PC shouting out 'maybe run away squishy finger wiggler - you're more helpful in the back!' etc. This tends to help w/ immersion and reinforce that the Player retains full agency to decide what their PC does, others are just throwing out options for them to pick from.

The important bit is to offer help / suggestions w/ kindness and respect the Player's agency - don't be pushy. (of course this is harder via chat as tone is harder to convey - even more so if there is a language difference too)

[RSP]

Tables vary, and the “right” move will vary with how those tables play.

My current table goes back and forth on RP-driven or offering suggestions. And I tend to go back and forth as well.

I generally offer a suggestion if it’s rules-based or something the character would know (like how to use a spell or ability). So I’d agree suggesting they could use an ability they have, as in your Druid example, is fine.

However, I try to stay away from RP or strategic suggestions of how a Player should play a PC.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

IRL our characters would have hours between encounters to discuss their capabilities or worry and plan.

In most games I'm in that is skipped over so your actions seem appropriate to me.

[KorvinStarmast]

A slippery slope to what? People having fun and enjoying Dungeons & Dragons with friends?

D&D is a game with a lot of things to keep track off. Unless the player in question requests otherwise, there is nothing wrong with reminding them of something, be it a rule, an ability of their character, an ability of your character, or just something that happened in the lore or in a previous session.

Reminding people and making suggestion isn't insisting, dictating or demanding they do something. While I tend to agree with this, each player gives a hoot about the entirety of their PC's abilities to a different level. I get annoyed with fellow players, with some frequency, who after some years with the same PC, don't know their PC inside and out. That lack of effort tells me something about their investment in the party.

But I have learned to bite my tongue.

At this point, they are friends, so even when they fireball a group of CR 3 monsters whom I have just webbed to break up the swarm attack (as happened last night, much to our tactical detriment) I roll with it.
Part of my job is to think tactically and to adapt. And I do.

Some of the adaptation is to mitigate blunders that the party makes (including myself, like the I was flying and cast a web to slow down the second wave of berserkers. Fell to the ground, taking 4d6 damage, and then lost concentration on the web when I hosed the concentration (web now) roll. DOH!

I do offer suggestions, sometimes, and then shut up. Why do I offer suggestions sometimes?
It is usually
(a) to help a player try out a feature they have not used
(b) remind player of something that the character would know that they can do that.

One of the nice things about Phoenix Phyre's campaigns -- the last two in particular -- is that some of the players have been trying out some of his homebrew classes. I have too many PHB/Xan's/Tasha's options I want to try out to mess with homebrew. (I did help with a homebrew revision / tweak in campaign 2 before PP went live with the homebrew dragon knight / dragon rider).
For those cases, I offer no suggestions. (Beyond tactical call outs like "don't rush in!" ...) I fall back to 'you do you' and it allows me to focus on my PC, and the situation.
Less mental load.

It helps a lot, for me, that all four players (1) do bother to know and learn their PCs' abilities, and (2) are invested in the world. It's why I keep making excuses to play, even when the wife gives me grief about it.

You had an idea and through out a suggestion before leaving it to the player to do or not. A fine example of being helpful but not bossy. Well said.

[LibraryOgre]

The important bit is to offer help / suggestions w/ kindness and respect the Player's agency - don't be pushy. (of course this is harder via chat as tone is harder to convey - even more so if there is a language difference too)

I'd also note that frequency plays into it.

"We're in a tough spot, everyone is stuck, here's my suggestion" is good.
"Burning hands would be ideal this round.... hey, what about healing Bob... if you go after this guy, you can sneak attack" is obnoxious, because you're doing it all the time.

[Keravath]

It depends on the group and people you are playing with. However, usually I would mention something if it is an idea that should be obvious to the CHARACTER.

In your example, a Wildfire druid would know the capabilities of its Wildfire spirit inside out. The character would never forget that their spirit could teleport them out of a tight situation. On the other hand, it would be very easy for the player to forget.

As a role playing thing, I also treat ideas thrown out by the group the same way ..
- is the idea based on something that would be trivially obvious to the character - then I have no qualms about using the suggestion since it is something the character would KNOW even if it is something that I, as the player, happened to forget.

- is the idea something that I think my character might have come up with in the pressure of the moment? In this case, depending on likely consequences, I might use the suggestion and chalk it up to the character having a moment of insight

- is the idea something that the character would have never come up with? Then I'd probably not use the idea at all since the character wouldn't have come up with it (unless the other character are within range to tell my character the idea).

However, in the OP's case, a Wildfire druid, assuming they had any wildshapes left (the OP didn't mention if they were tracking the druids resources or if the druid already had the spirit in play), would have thought of using the spirit even if the player did not. If the idea was put in a typed chat and it wasn't acknowledged then I'd likely politely mention it again to make sure that the player had seen the idea - they can then decide whether to use it or not. In the circumstances described by the OP it was unclear whether the druid player had even noticed the suggestion.

[Keravath]

...

Some of the adaptation is to mitigate blunders that the party makes (including myself, like the I was flying and cast a web to slow down the second wave of berserkers. Fell to the ground, taking 4d6 damage, and then lost concentration on the web when I hosed the concentration (web now) roll. DOH!

...


Just curious what happened :) ... you make it sound like you webbed yourself but that doesn't really make sense if you were 40' in the air (taking 4d6 falling damage) but were casting web on a group of berserkers that don't usually fly.

Ah ... except fly and web are both concentration ... :)

I also often find web a bit more difficult to use at times due to the requirement to have structures to anchor it to. It is a 20' cube when walls/trees are present but only a 5' thick mat when placed on the ground.

P.S. I also wonder if accidentally casting a concentration spell while already concentrating on one is something that a D&D character would ever actually do ... spellcasting characters are probably trained so that any decision to cast a concentration spell when you are already concentrating would be something they would do consciously, never by accident. :) ... but maybe not ... it certainly creates fun moments like the example you mentioned.

[Sigreid]

Just curious what happened :) ... you make it sound like you webbed yourself but that doesn't really make sense if you were 40' in the air (taking 4d6 falling damage) but were casting web on a group of berserkers that don't usually fly.

Ah ... except fly and web are both concentration ... :)

I also often find web a bit more difficult to use at times due to the requirement to have structures to anchor it to. It is a 20' cube when walls/trees are present but only a 5' thick mat when placed on the ground.

P.S. I also wonder if accidentally casting a concentration spell while already concentrating on one is something that a D&D character would ever actually do ... spellcasting characters are probably trained so that any decision to cast a concentration spell when you are already concentrating would be something they would do consciously, never by accident. :) ... but maybe not ... it certainly creates fun moments like the example you mentioned.

Sadly, I've done dumber things in real life when distracted by multiple demands on my attention and I can't even blame it on the stress of combat.

[tKUUNK]

My opinion is what you did was good. You had an idea and through out a suggestion before leaving it to the player to do or not. A fine example of being helpful but not bossy.

Side note, my wizard was grabbed by that flying creature and was able to use wall of force right in front of it to cause both to fall. He barely survived because the party raced to revive him.

Yep. Agree in full. Knowing the flying creature noted here, your story is epic. "I cast....Windshield". For the win.

To the OP: you struck the perfect balance between "unhelpful", "helpful" and "obnoxious". I've had my own character bite the dust in sudden circumstances and I got over it. It's D&D: most of us are sitting on backup character ideas we're dying (literally) to play anyway! ;)

My wife has recently started playing DnD with us, and I try really hard to keep my suggestions to a bare minimum.

Usually the best way you can help a new or seasoned player who seems stuck is by asking, "what would your character do"?

[Sigreid]

Yep. Agree in full. Knowing the flying creature noted here, your story is epic. "I cast....Windshield". For the win.

To the OP: you struck the perfect balance between "unhelpful", "helpful" and "obnoxious". I've had my own character bite the dust in sudden circumstances and I got over it. It's D&D: most of us are sitting on backup character ideas we're dying (literally) to play anyway! ;)

My wife has recently started playing DnD with us, and I try really hard to keep my suggestions to a bare minimum.

Usually the best way you can help a new or seasoned player who seems stuck is by asking, "what would your character do"?

It was honestly the only thing I could think of that even might work. lol