Making a Wizard, but you can only choose spells from the school you chose

[CTurbo]

But, you're NOT restricted to only Wizard spells. You can choose anything of from any class as long as it's from the chosen school.

Which school would you choose? What would your build look like?

The first thing I thought of was Wish is Conjuration so that's the only option that would get it, but does that automatically make it the best option? What about levels 1-16?

[RogueJK]

Even aside from Wish, I say Conjurer would be the most well-rounded and strongest overall. Specifically with either a Mountain Dwarf or a race with natural armor and a good DEX. A bit short on defensive spells, but your racial medium/natural armor and ability to summon meat shields help make up for that. Conjuration has a great mix of damage, hazard, control, utility, and summoning spells, and even a little bit of healing.

Enchantment would be a close second, with a good mix of buff, debuff, damage, and control spells.

Transmutation would be a bit more distant third, with a smaller variety of those and a heavier emphasis on utility.


Evocation is a bit too focused on just damage, although they do get nearly all the healing spells, so I guess you could be a blaster-healer kinda like a Light or Tempest Cleric. Abjuration is too focused on defense and buffing, but could make a decent support caster in a larger party. Divination doesn't have enough variety. Illusion is likewise too narrow/limited. And Necromancy just has a small and overly weak spell list.

[Dork_Forge]

Not a rule I'd use personally, but probably evocation with a race to deal with the AC situation. You end up with a surprisingly nice selection of spells.

[Amnestic]

Evocation comes out of this pretty well. For unusual/not typical wizard spells, they pick up a bunch of healing (Cure Wounds, Healing Word, their 'Mass' versions, Heal) - and if you take it all the way, you can make one of those infinite with your wizard class features, guaranteeing your party always starts every encounter with full HP.

They nab Destructive Wave and Holy Weapon too, which are pretty decent pickups, along with a bunch of Smite spells.

They're also the only wizard school that gets the bladetrips (they'd go quite well with Smite spells), and they add Eldritch Blast to their list, in case you want to grab some invocations for it via a feat.

They also keep damage (of course) while still maintaining some additional utility (Tiny Hut, Sending) and crowd control (forcecage).

You miss out on defensive tools, turning you into more of a glass cannon and while your CC/utility isn't as wide as a typical wizard (no detect magic, lol) you're not without out of combat options.

Illusion is suffering pretty hard. It has only a single cantrip (Minor Illusion), its only 9th level spell is Weird, but the stuff in the middle is pretty okay. Zero damage spells at 1st level and their 2nd level damage is mostly limited to Shadow Blade. You do end up with more defensive options and a few nice utility pieces (I will always stan phantom steed) along with a bevy of CC though. They get Simulacrum, for what it's worth, but without Wish they're burning a lot more resources on making them.

[Luccan]

I've considered it with just Wizard spells before. I think I'd go Transmutation, I just like too many of the spells. Definitely a support caster, but you get your share of damaging and other combat spells. Throw on an ancestry with natural armor or armor use to cover early level AC issues, as others have pointed out, otherwise you're fine.

[CTurbo]

When I first made this thread, I was thinking about how cool Enchantment would be getting all those juicy Bard spells, and being able to twin a lot of them, and I thought Abjuration would be really strong too since many of the best Wizard spells IMO are from the Abjuration school, but I hadn't really thought about cantrips, and Abjuration only gets Blade Ward, which is not good at all, and Resistance, which is probably still below average.

After thinking about it, I agree that Conjuration is probably the best with these restrictions. There are no glaring weaknesses that can't easily be managed.

I do think Evocation would be really strong and probably fun to play as well.

Transmutation fairs pretty well under these circumstances, but there's nothing exactly exciting about it that I can think of.

Illusion and Necromancy definitely suffer.

[Kane0]

The big winners are Evokers and Transmuters. Conjurers, Abjurers, Necromancers and Enchanters would suffer a bit from the narrowing but still be largely fine. Diviners and Illusionists suffer notably from combination of both pidgeonholing and lack of spells to choose in the first place.

Warmages, Bladesingers and Scribes just cry quietly in a corner.

[Chaos Jackal]

Outside of number of spells and apparent breadth of different effects, how the spells actually work and how redundant they are with each other is important too. Enchantment takes even more of a dive because of this, for example; while it has a decent amount of spells and the ability to buff and debuff along with some utility tricks, it also comes with a big number of (often single target) Wisdom save effects and an obvious weakness to charm-immune enemies, which aren't exactly a rarity.

Conjuration is once again massive here, on the other hand, because not only does it have a plethora of different effects, it also delivers them in a multitude of ways. Worst case scenario, summon something with the effect and method of application you want and let it do the job for you (or try to, at least). No need to worry that if the enemy has high Wisdom and/or is immune to charm, it'll nullify half the available spells.

And as others have said, evocation's quite useful too.

[NecessaryWeevil]

it also comes with a big number of (often single target) Wisdom save effects and an obvious weakness to charm-immune enemies, which aren't exactly a rarity.


Yes, I was going to say that you'd need to know which campaign you're going to play before you make your choice. Campaigns with a lot of fiends, fey, or undead could all give various schools, especially Enchantment, a hard time. You'd also want to know your DM; thinking of the first time I played 5E, if my Illusionist was limited to just Illusion spells, I would have been better off with a crossbow - or finding a different game.

[Kane0]

If youre in a game with a lot of undead, necromancer is going to be really sad in tiers 1 and 2 then really happy in tiers 3 and 4

[sithlordnergal]

I would choose Evocation. Obviously you get all of the damage and healing spells you could want, but you also get a lot of control spells. Things like Faerie Fire, Darkness, Blinding Smite, the Wall spells, Bigby's Hand, Forcecage, a lot

[The_Ditto]

I've always been a fan of Transmutation .. and reviewing the list of those spells, I'd choose it without hesitation ... too many useful utility spells, a fair amount of offensive and defensive options ... very well rounded in my opinion ..

Just casually cherry picking some of the really nice options from Transmutation:

Control Flames
Druidcraft
Message
Prestidigitation
Shillelagh
Thaumaturgy
Thorn Whip

Catapult
Expeditious Retreat
Goodberry

Alter Self
Heat Metal
Knock
Rope Trick
Spike Growth

Blink
Fly
Gaseous Form
Haste
Slow
Water Breathing

Fabricate
Giant Insect
Polymorph

Animate Objects
Awaken
Reincarnate
Telekinesis

Disintegrate
Flesh to Stone

Draconic Transformation
Etherealness
Reverse Gravity

Control Weather

Shapechange
Time Stop
True Polymorph

[LudicSavant]

Evocation comes out of this pretty well, honestly. It's still got all of the walls and some other good CC (like Rime's Binding Ice), it gets healing including stuff like Aura of Vitality, it gets all of your usual Fireballs and sculpted hazards and such (plus some new ones!) and even has a reaction spell: Hellish Rebuke (which will also benefiy from their level 11 feature).

They even grab some stuff like Potent Empowered Eldritch Blast amd Spiritual Weapon.

[Hawk7915]

Fun thought exercise!
Cantrips:: I think Evocation, Transmutation, and Enchantment are about sixes here, and there's nothing wrong with Conjuration or Necromancy either. I'll call out that Divination, Illusion, and Abjuration get very few Cantrips and no damage-dealing cantrips, putting the Wizard in a really tough spot for at-will, resource-free damage.

1st level spells: Enchantment starts very strong with a 1st level spell list capable of carrying you pretty deep into tier 2 - you've got Bless as one of the best buffs in the game, Silvery Barbs for dice control, Sleep and Hideous Laughter for crowd control, and Dissonant Whispers as a rock-solid blaster spell. That's just the top half of the incredible Enchantment spell list at 1, ya'll - it's a good level. Evocation is probably second, with the best damage spells (Guiding Bolt, Burning Hands, Magic Missile), Healing spells (Cure Wounds, Healing Word), and even a buff in Faerie Fire. I'll call out Illusion as the weakest here - there's only five spells, and only one with any combat applicability in Color Spray. It's bleak for Necromancy, too - four spells, and only three real spells since Ray of Sickness is awful.

2nd Level spells: I feel like Conjuration comes into its own here - you've got Web as one of the best control spells in the game, you've got Summon Beast and Flaming Sphere to get repeatable damage sources down, Find Steed for a pet, and Misty Step + Vortex Warp to bamf around. Transmutation is also quite good here, with a good mix of strong combat spells (Spike Growth, Heat Metal, Earthen Grasp) and strong utility spells (Enhance Ability, Rope Trick, Spiderclimb), or spells that are both (Levitate). But this spell list is deep enough for Wizard that I think if you're starting at level 3, you could make any school except Necromancy work - Necromancy again only has four spells here, including the extremely situational Gentle Repose and the extremely bad Ray of Enfeeblement. Divination has at least and at last picked up a damage spell in Mind Spike and Illusion has picked up a few spells of real combat utility like Nathair's Mischief, Phantasmal Force, and Mirror Image, but Necromancy is going to struggle with a wall of mediocrity even if they can deal damage.

I could do every level, but TL;DR - if you're starting early on and have to play through the first levels, I'd take Evocation or Enchantment to have strong all-rounder characters. If you're starting at 5th+, I'd probably do Transmutation or Conjuration for the longer-term power and potential. Divination, Illusion, and especially Necromancy are probably the weakest overall and are going to make tough to make work unless you start at very high levels.

[Eldariel]

Silent Image has plenty of combat applicability.

[Akal Saris]

I'm playing a homebrew class right now whose spell list is just 'all necromancy spells', and I can confirm that it is very limiting at lower levels.

[CTurbo]

I think the biggest issue with this exercise is with cantrips. I hadn't thought about that when I made the thread.

Rituals are another thing to consider. Wizard Rituals to me has always been a strong suit for Wizards, but some subclasses like Enchantment and Evocation only get 1 each.

[Bobthewizard]

Yes. I think this might work better if you went with just 1/2 of your preparations need be from your school. It doesn't completely cut out other spells while forcing a little bit of specialization.

[CTurbo]

Or you can only choose between 2 different classes, but in that case, Evocation would be 1 of the 2 nearly 100% of the time.

[OvisCaedo]

Only the most demented of players would go with a divination only wizard... But you'd stop the divination portent feature being best used with other schools' spells!

[Eldariel]

Or you can only choose between 2 different classes, but in that case, Evocation would be 1 of the 2 nearly 100% of the time.

Why? Plenty of great spells outside the school. Sure, Fireball is good but outside that you aren't missing out on that much and a full school easily outpowers one spell.

[RogueJK]

Why? Plenty of great spells outside the school. Sure, Fireball is good but outside that you aren't missing out on that much and a full school easily outpowers one spell.

Yep. Other 3rd level AoE spells like Slow or Hypnotic Pattern can be just as - or even more - effective than Fireball. Removing enemies totally from the fight, or impacting their action economy, is often better than simply dealing damage.

And even if you did want to deal damage, while Evocation contains most of the best ones, there are plenty of other good options for non-Evocation damage spells in other spell schools, namely Conjuration, Transmutation, and Enchantment.


So in the posited situation of choosing only 2 spell schools, Evocation isn't necessary 100% of the time. I'd likely rather have Conjuration and Enchantment.

[LudicSavant]

Necromancer:

Level 1 and 2 spell selections are dismal, but level 3+ you can basically slot all your resources into minionmancy like Animate Dead and Summon Undead. All your cantrips are Necrotic damage, but at least they're otherwise decent (Toll the Dead, Chill Touch, Sapping Sting). You've got a few heals and blasts, but not as good as Evocation's in either category. Inflict Wounds and Contagion and Shadow of Moil and Revivify and other rez spells are perhaps the most notable new things added to your list. Soul Cage, Magic Jar, and Clone are on that list.

Grim Harvest is normally most useful with non-Necromancy spells, so it hurts to lose those. That said, Shadow of Moil and Inflict Wounds will work with it.

Conjuration:
This one comes out of this relatively well. Mostly just lacks for reaction spells.

Create Bonfire, Acid Splash, Poison Spray, Sword Burst, Produce Flame, Mage Hand, and Infestation provide a relatively decent variety of cantrips.

Level 1 has goodies like Find Familiar and Unseen Servant, Fog Cloud, and Entangle.

Level 2 has goodies like Web, Cloud of Daggers, Misty Step, Healing Spirit, and Find Steed.

Level 3 you start getting things like Conjure Animals and Spirit Guardians added from outside the class. Tidal Wave and Sleet Storm are on there too.

At level 4 the tendency to pick up good things from outside the class continues with Find Greater Steed. And you're still getting nice things inside the class like Evard's Black Tentacles and Dimension Door and Summon Greater Demon and (almost) all the Tasha's summons.

At level 5 you get Steel Wind Strike for an AC-targeting, resistance-bypassing AoE.

High level includes things like Heroes' Feast, Teleport, Maze, and Wish.

Divination
Divination is hurt by the narrow spell selection of the school. You don't even have divination spells to learn at every spell level. That's right, WotC still has never printed any 7th or 8th level divinations!

So, what are your options? Well, you've got Guidance and True Strike as your only cantrips, but you can basically use your Matryoshka Doll slots on Mind Spike as an enhanced "cantrip." You can put Gift of Alacrity and Fortune's Favor (including upcast) on the party pretty much constantly, and you can give folks all the information gathering they'd ever want, and... that's about it. Maybe you can find an animal sidekick with Locate Animals / Speak With Animals / Beast Bond? Or try to find some magic wands with other spells with Locate Object? :smalltongue:

[Bobthewizard]

Or you can only choose between 2 different classes, but in that case, Evocation would be 1 of the 2 nearly 100% of the time.

I think I would always take abjuration as one of my schools. Then you could make conjuration, transmutation or evocation work pretty well. If I only had one school, the defensive spells are the ones I'd miss the most.

[Leon]

Abjuartion or transmutation, them being my more favored schools.