Paladin as Fighter Archetype

[paladinn]

Hola all,

Everyone here knows I love paladins (duh). And most of y'all know that I prefer a spell-less paladin, in order to differentiate from clerics. I believe paladins are warriors-with-benefits, or should be.

With that in mind, I've been playing with the idea of having a paladin option as a fighter subclass. As with most subclasses, it would share the core features with all other fighters. For subclass features, I have the following:

L3: Divine Sense, Divine Health, Lay On Hands, Divine Smite
L7: Aura of Protection
L10: Aura of Courage
L15: Improved Smite
L18: Improved Auras

For the LoH featured, I'd start the "paladin level" at L3. A paladin can heal a total of 5x the paladin level per long rest.

For the smiting, again I would start the feature at L3. Same basic rules as BtB 5e, but converting spells to "smite points":

L3 2 pts
L4-5 3 pts
L6 -7 8 pts
L8-9 10 pts
L10-11 16 pts
L12-13 19 pts
L14-15 23 pts
L16-17 27 pts
L18-19 36 pts
L20 41 pts

Smites would work BtB: one point adds 2d8 damage; each additional point adds 1d8, to a max of 5d8. L15+ adds 1d8 more.

I'm not adding paladin-subclass features because this already adds a lot. But I don't think it's any more OP than the eldritch knight subclass; and this doesn't have spells.

Any thoughts, or improvements?

[PhoenixPhyre]

Hola all,

Everyone here knows I love paladins (duh). And most of y'all know that I prefer a spell-less paladin, in order to differentiate from clerics. I believe paladins are warriors-with-benefits, or should be.

With that in mind, I've been playing with the idea of having a paladin option as a fighter subclass. As with most subclasses, it would share the core features with all other fighters. For subclass features, I have the following:

L3: Divine Sense, Divine Health, Lay On Hands, Divine Smite
L7: Aura of Protection
L10: Aura of Courage
L15: Improved Smite
L18: Improved Auras

For the LoH featured, I'd start the "paladin level" at L3. A paladin can heal a total of 5x the paladin level per long rest.

For the smiting, again I would start the feature at L3. Same basic rules as BtB 5e, but converting spells to "smite points":

L3 2 pts
L4-5 3 pts
L6 -7 8 pts
L8-9 10 pts
L10-11 16 pts
L12-13 19 pts
L14-15 23 pts
L16-17 27 pts
L18-19 36 pts
L20 41 pts

Smites would work BtB: one point adds 2d8 damage; each additional point adds 1d8, to a max of 5d8. L15+ adds 1d8 more.

I'm not adding paladin-subclass features because this already adds a lot. But I don't think it's any more OP than the eldritch knight subclass; and this doesn't have spells.

Any thoughts, or improvements?

One big issue is that you lose the ability to differentiate on Oaths. Which is the entire thematic reason-for-existence of a paladin. Way more than smiting or auras. A paladin is their Oath. So you lose massive thematic resonance, and end up with something that has way too many features for a fighter subclass (seriously, 4 significant features at level 3, plus one at each other level? That's...a bit much for a fighter subclass) but no thematic resonance.

I'd rather make clerics less warrior-like to differentiate them. Keep them closer to the "white mage" (ok, but not purely healing) idea.

[Hytheter]

You give up the versatility of spells, but in terms of damage this is grossly overpowered, far stronger than the base paladin in both sustained damage and nova power. You get a lot more bang for your buck by spending only one point at a time, which combines very well with the Fighter's action surge and multiple attacks. It also has way better nova power than other Fighters, especially at higher levels; combined with Lay on Hands and Aura I'd say it's blatantly stronger than any other sub.

If you want to play a Spell-less paladin, just play a paladin and... don't use spells! Spend all your slots on smites and smite spells. Paladin is a great class, and you'll be plenty viable with this approach.

[paladinn]

One big issue is that you lose the ability to differentiate on Oaths. Which is the entire thematic reason-for-existence of a paladin. Way more than smiting or auras. A paladin is their Oath. So you lose massive thematic resonance, and end up with something that has way too many features for a fighter subclass (seriously, 4 significant features at level 3, plus one at each other level? That's...a bit much for a fighter subclass) but no thematic resonance.

I'd rather make clerics less warrior-like to differentiate them. Keep them closer to the "white mage" (ok, but not purely healing) idea.

The whole Oath concept was new in 5e (except for a minor mention in Pathfinder). And that was because Every class had to have subclasses. Until 5e it wasn't a thing.

Likewise in 0e-2e, paladins were always labeled a "fighter subclass," which IMO is a good thing.

I know the 4 L3 features are a bit front-loaded. But of the 4, only Smite is really combat-oriented. If it's too much, what should be removed or moved to a later level? There are other sub/classes that get as much on a given level. Battlemasters get 3 maneuvers at L3. EK's get 3 cantrips and 2 spells and Weapon Bond.

And the Aura's for the rest of the subclass levels are also defensive, obviously. I was really curious about the smite progression and available points. Is it too much for a mostly-fighter? Again, compare with the EK.

[JNAProductions]

It’s blatantly overpowered. You’re stapling the majority of a Paladin to the Fighter.

[Bobthewizard]

Fighter and paladin both get most of their power from their base class. Adding most of the paladin's base class to the fighter is way too much. Most fighter subclasses have some ribbon only levels, while yours is all power. I would suggest something more like this.

L3: Lay On Hands (up to level/LR, not level x5 since they already get second wind), Divine Smite add 2d8 2x/SR
L7: Divine Sense
L10: Divine Health, Divine Smite to 2d10
L15: Aura of Courage, Divine Smite 3/SR
L18: Cleansing Touch, Divine Smite to 2d12

I wouldn't include Aura of Protection at all. And I would limit Divine Smite to about the same amount of damage as a Battlemaster's Superiority Dice. This gives you the feel of a paladin while keeping the power level in line with a battlemaster.

Comparing to the EK is not the right fighter subclass to use. EK's can't convert spell levels to smites, so almost all of their spells are either defensive reactions or in place of their attacks. Battlemaster is a better comparison for a smiting fighter.

[paladinn]

Fighter and paladin both get most of their power from their base class. Adding most of the paladin's base class to the fighter is way too much. Most fighter subclasses have some ribbon only levels, while yours is all power. I would suggest something more like this.

L3: Lay On Hands (up to level/LR, not level x5 since they already get second wind), Divine Smite add 2d8 2x/SR
L7: Divine Sense
L10: Divine Health, Divine Smite to 2d10
L15: Aura of Courage, Divine Smite 3/SR
L18: Cleansing Touch, Divine Smite to 2d12

I wouldn't include Aura of Protection at all. And I would limit Divine Smite to about the same amount of damage as a Battlemaster's Superiority Dice. This gives you the feel of a paladin while keeping the power level in line with a battlemaster.

Comparing to the EK is not the right fighter subclass to use. EK's can't convert spell levels to smites, so almost all of their spells are either defensive reactions or in place of their attacks. Battlemaster is a better comparison for a smiting fighter.

So you think smites should only advance with the subclass levels? Smites in this case take the place of spells. You state that EK's aren't a good comparison. I disagree. I've seen takes on the paladin that are identical to the EK except for using cleric spells. If EKs get spell/slots every level, paladins should get smite slots.

I'm open to adjusting. Divine Sense, Divine Health and Lay on Hands have always been intro paladin abilities. But L7 seems late to be getting smites.

[Arkhios]

I love paladins too, and even I think this is a bit too much, or more specifically, this is too front-loaded for an archetype.

Also, getting the number of attacks of a fighter AND full progress of Divine Smites is too much. Instead, I would copy the Arcane Shot concept from Arcane Archer and the idea for OneD&D smites:

You get a few options of smites (in the form of the Smite Spells) that you get to add once per turn when you hit with an attack. Not only do you get a boost to damage but also have to make a meaningful choice of a rider effect. As a trade-off to the fighter's capability of making at the very least twice as many attacks in a turn compared to others with Extra Attack feature, your smite damage doesn't grow much, if at all.

Since Fighters get Second Wind, I would tie Lay on Hands to that feature. Normally, a fighter can use Second Wind only on themselves and only a few times per day. I would let the Paladin Archetype use Second Wind on their allies as well, possibly granting the paladin a few more Second Wind uses per day, as opposed to standard Fighter. After all, Lay on Hands has always been a feature for Paladin that stands out from the norm. This could seen as another way to further differentiate the Paladin archetype from other fighter archetypes.

Divine Sense is a ribbon, and it having a long rest uses is weird. I'd make it usable maybe once or twice per short rest instead. Sending it up to a higher level is maybe a bit odd, but since it actually does grant you the ability to detect potential enemies a lot before anyone else, I'd say it's fine.

[Mastikator]

Can't you just play a normal paladin and only ever use spell slots for smites?

[Amnestic]

Paladins are a class-feature heavy class (which is why they're good!). To turn them into a fighter subclass, you'd have to remove or nerf a decent number of those features to maintain parity with the other fighter subclasses, and at that point it stops feeling so good.

The quick and easy solution is - as others have suggested - just play a paladin and never cast a spell, just burn them all on smites.
A slightly more effort-y version would be finding small subclass buffs to trade for getting rid of their Oath spells and adjusting any subclass features that reference casting spells, eg. Ancients paladin capstone.

A smite-only paladin is still pretty good (arguably still top tier), but it must be noted that some of their power does come from their unique spells eg. Destructive Wave, Find (Greater) Steed, and the Smite Spells. If you wanted to keep them 'as good' as before then it wouldn't be unreasonable to give them a few more buffs here and there in exchange.

[Bobthewizard]

So you think smites should only advance with the subclass levels? Smites in this case take the place of spells. You state that EK's aren't a good comparison. I disagree. I've seen takes on the paladin that are identical to the EK except for using cleric spells. If EKs get spell/slots every level, paladins should get smite slots.

I'm open to adjusting. Divine Sense, Divine Health and Lay on Hands have always been intro paladin abilities. But L7 seems late to be getting smites.

I'd be fine switching EK's spell to cleric and calling them a paladin. EK's can't smite with their spells. It's tacking smite onto a fighter's extra attacks and extra feats that's the problem. It's way too overpowered to let a fighter smite with their spell slots. It needs to be more limited, especially at higher levels when fighters get 3 and 4 attacks.

I gave them smite at level 3.

Every martial class gets some way to increase damage as they level up. Fighters get extra attacks and extra feats, and paladins get smite and improved smite. You can't combine the two and expect it to be balanced.

[Skrum]

Ok before I even comment on this specific idea, what is actually wrong with making a fighter subclass that's better than the other fighter subclasses? Fighter is a pretty middle of the road class, and middle of the road in 5e means "quite a bit weaker than several of the classes."

I really don't understand how we can have so many threads that eventually reach "martials are inferior to casters, especially in the latter half of levels," but then any time someone proposes something that's better than existing martial options everyone is like "whoa, that's way too strong." Maybe that's the point!

I think this looks pretty cool, and as someone who'd like there to be less classes, it's interesting to see how neatly paladin maps into fighter. My only comment would be the nova potential - natively combining fighter's multiple attacks AND action surge with divine smite... That probably warrants a 1/turn use of divine smite. Being able to dump literally an entire day's worth of resources in a single turn, I don't think that's a particularly desirable outcome. Paladin's ability to nova already has an effect on the meta, and this would be quite a bit more impactful.

[Hurrashane]

I'd at least nix the smite points and give them a dice pool like the psi warrior and battlemaster. Make them D8s, they can be used to add radiant damage to attacks. At higher levels you can use multiples to emulate smite spells but I think they'd still only add 1d8 damage just with added riders. Heck, you could even use the same pool for lay on hands, call them oath dice. Could turn the auras into reactions that use one or more oath dice, as a reaction you can use an oath dice to add +1d8 to a save against fear on each creature (maybe cha mod creatures) within 10ft of the paladin.

Maybe give them improved divine smite later that lets them choose to convert all their damage into radiant when they use a smite. Or improved divine smite would be the smite spell riders.

[Theodoxus]

Not a fan of the idea personally, but I think a couple changes would make it work.

Smites: I'm ok with paladinn's progression, if and only if, the smite attack is a one and done. A bit like using a SCAGtrip. If you smite, you can't make any more attacks that turn. If you attack, you can't smite on a subsequent hit. This actually encourages using more smite points on a single hit instead of making up to four attacks with 1 point spent on each attack.

Auras: Use the Hunter Ranger concept and allow a choice when the Aura of 'Oath' becomes available. This would help differentiate different Paladins without going fully down the 'Oath Path'. Alternatively, you could encourage Oaths, granting differentiation in the smite damage type, Auras, even LoH and Divine Senses, accordingly.

I would however, prefer to see Clerics become more Priestly rather than Paladin-esque... but Twilight, with it's Heavy Armor, martial weapons, and amazing frontline capabilities proves the WotC doesn't agree... even Peace, which should be the most Priestly domain, is far too martially capable... and I don't really see D&Done going away from it either.

[Skrum]

Not a fan of the idea personally, but I think a couple changes would make it work.

Smites: I'm ok with paladinn's progression, if and only if, the smite attack is a one and done. A bit like using a SCAGtrip. If you smite, you can't make any more attacks that turn. If you attack, you can't smite on a subsequent hit. This actually encourages using more smite points on a single hit instead of making up to four attacks with 1 point spent on each attack.



So a level 11 fightadin smites on his first attack, adding 2d8 damage. They now can't use their other two attacks...? Why would they ever use smite?

Yes, this would encourage larger smites rather than several lessor. But in effect it would mean "if I crit on my first attack, I dump every point I can into that hit. Otherwise, I don't think about smite at all." I don't think this is a good dynamic.

[paladinn]

Thanks for all the input!

I can understand the impression that one can "just use spells for smites." Only one problem: Oaths. A lot of the power of the oaths is their oath spells. I don't know if/how that could/should be addressed. If I dump spells, I dump oaths. I know I'm doing that anyway; but if I were to go that route, I still would hear "Well oaths are the whole point of a paladin!" Again, I disagree. Game-wise there were paladins way before there were oaths.

So back to my subclass..

DivineSense is indeed a ribbon. I see that as always-on. DivineHealth I see pretty much the same; but I could see bumping that to L7 if need be. That leaves LoH and Smite for L3.

For LoH, I can see typing that to the 2ndWind feature. Maybe give the paladin an extra use, and allow giving to someone else. Not sure if/how that might affect diseases tho. Pondering.

For smites, I want to keep the general structure since that really is the paladin's "thing." But if I use the EK spell/point progression instead of the btb paladin's, we get this:

L3 2pts ttl
4-6 3
7-9 8
10-12 10
13-15 16
16-18 19
19-20 23

Then maybe limit the number of d8's that can be used in a given smite? Instead of 2-5d8 (6 with improved smite) it becomes 1-4/5? Or should it be limited more? Again, this is the paladin's "thing." I'm also ok with only allowing one smite/turn.

Yes, it can be tempting to just save all smites for crits. That's resource management.

I'm also thinking that certain fighter core features (like ActionSurge) may be better as subclass features for a "basic" fighter (i.e. a champion-revision). Working on that too.

Any thoughts on all this?

[Psyren]

Can't you just play a normal paladin and only ever use spell slots for smites?

I second this question. If spellcasting is the problem, then a variant that can only use their slots for vanilla smites seems like the solution. You can even swap them over to spell points and not need to create a "smite points" framework at all. Thanks to the Tasha Ranger we have an official framework/language for what a variant class, or at least variant features, should look like.

Bolting Smite onto a Fighter is too swingy/bursty - you can end up with 7 smites per round! Sure, using all of them would probably deplete your resources that day, but that's still a massive amount of burst even if you don't crit.

[paladinn]

I second this question. If spellcasting is the problem, then a variant that can only use their slots for vanilla smites seems like the solution. You can even swap them over to spell points and not need to create a "smite points" framework at all. Thanks to the Tasha Ranger we have an official framework/language for what a variant class, or at least variant features, should look like.

Wouldn't this require substantial reworking of the "oaths"? Much of an oath's power comes from its spells.

And FWIW, I actually am changing the slots to spell points. That's where i get the smite points.

[DarknessEternal]

Still outrageously overpowered. Most fighter subs don’t get as much damage ever as yours does at level 7.

[JNAProductions]

A Paladin is strong enough that they can ignore their Oath Spells and STILL be top notch.

[Amechra]

Ok before I even comment on this specific idea, what is actually wrong with making a fighter subclass that's better than the other fighter subclasses?

Because then you don't have a Fighter class with a bunch of subclasses, you just have a Paladin class that doesn't have a subclass. Which is just kinda weird in the context of 5e.

Also, the issue here isn't that this would make the Fighter better, it's that it makes the Fighter better at something they were already good at, and does nothing to boost them in the areas where they have problems. So you'd be reducing the diversity of optimal Fighter builds even further without actually improving the overall spellcaster vs. non-spellcaster situation.

[JNAProductions]

Because then you don't have a Fighter class with a bunch of subclasses, you just have a Paladin class that doesn't have a subclass. Which is just kinda weird in the context of 5e.

Also, the issue here isn't that this would make the Fighter better, it's that it makes the Fighter better at something they were already good at, and does nothing to boost them in the areas where they have problems. So you'd be reducing the diversity of optimal Fighter builds even further without actually improving the overall spellcaster vs. non-spellcaster situation.

Also a matter of degree.
Better than Champion? Sure, yes, that is good.
Massively better than Rune Knight? Too much.

[paladinn]

Still outrageously overpowered. Most fighter subs don’t get as much damage ever as yours does at level 7.

Really? At L7, this paladin would have a total pool of 8 smite points, but would be limited to 4, so a smite bonus of 32 points if all the d8's rolled 8's. Is that really outrageous? And if s/he did that, it would shoot their supply for the "long rest."

At L13, an EK could be popping-out fireballs of 8d6 (possible 48 points) and more if upcast.

[Skrum]

Also, the issue here isn't that this would make the Fighter better, it's that it makes the Fighter better at something they were already good at, and does nothing to boost them in the areas where they have problems. So you'd be reducing the diversity of optimal Fighter builds even further without actually improving the overall spellcaster vs. non-spellcaster situation.

I don't think this is true. Giving fighters a reason to boost Cha gives them social skills, the auras give them non-AC defense AND party support, and lay on hands gives more healing. There's a reason paladin is considered better than fighter, and it's mostly because of those things (paladin spells are not very good).

On top of that, in t3 and t4, part of the martial problem is that they can't even excel at their core strengths. Get by, sure, if they're given good magical items. Excel at, beat the casual summon that the caster just throws out, not so much. They need to be better *at fighting,* among other things.

[JNAProductions]

Really? At L7, this paladin would have a total pool of 8 smite points, but would be limited to 4, so a smite bonus of 32 points if all the d8's rolled 8's. Is that really outrageous? And if s/he did that, it would shoot their supply for the "long rest."

At L13, an EK could be popping-out fireballs of 8d6 (possible 48 points) and more if upcast.

At level 13, your Paladin Fighter adds an extra d8 of radiant damage to every single attack, and the EK cannot upcast a 3rd level spell. They cannot until level 19.

Sure, the EK can clear a room of lesser creatures in one action. But the Wizard's been doing that for 8 levels by now. An EK is best off supplementing their martial nature with choice spells-Fireball isn't a bad choice to allow for AoEs, but compare an 8d6 Fireball (average of 28) to a 6d6+15 Greatsword (average of 36). Add on 13.5 from Improved Divine Smite, and you're nearing double the damage against a single target.

[Psyren]

Wouldn't this require substantial reworking of the "oaths"? Much of an oath's power comes from its spells.

...Huh? I just looked through the Paladin Oaths and even in 2014, none of them rely on your spellcasting at all. They're all either tied to the Paladin's Channel Divinity, Aura, or they are entirely unique add-on powers.

Ex: Devotion can enchant their weapon, turn fiends/undead, charm immunity, constant pro evil
Ex: Ancients can snare foes, turn fey/fiends, spell resistance, orc-y endurance
etc.


If what you meant is that a paladin with smite + spells will be stronger than one with smite alone - I mean sure, that's obvious, but the discrepancy between those two is not nearly great enough to justify bolting on the entire fighter class instead.

[Bobthewizard]

Ok before I even comment on this specific idea, what is actually wrong with making a fighter subclass that's better than the other fighter subclasses? Fighter is a pretty middle of the road class, and middle of the road in 5e means "quite a bit weaker than several of the classes."

While fighters might be a middle of the road class, they are very good at single target damage. So are paladins. Combining those two aspects would be a mistake.

If I were to improve martial classes, it wouldn't be by giving them more single target damage, it would be by giving them more options to do other things.


Again, I disagree. Game-wise there were paladins way before there were oaths.

There were paladins before there were smites too. So those aren't essential either.


Then maybe limit the number of d8's that can be used in a given smite? Instead of 2-5d8 (6 with improved smite) it becomes 1-4/5? Or should it be limited more? Again, this is the paladin's "thing." I'm also ok with only allowing one smite/turn.

I would limit to 2d8 a limited number of times per rest and once per turn. I would not even consider adding improved divine smite's 1d8 to every attack.

EK's might be able to cast fireball at level 13, but that is not their core role in a party. Their core role is single target damage, and your proposed subclass is better at that than any other fighter subclass, and any other paladin. You should lean more into flavor, and less into increasing DPR.

[Amnestic]

I don't think there's a good way to make Smitedice work on a fighter chassis, due to their number of attacks both as standard and with action surge.

Think the suggestion to turn smite spells into something similar to arcane archer shots would work better, I think, less worry about alpha strike novas going on. Riders they offer are always going to be more interesting than just raw damage too.

[paladinn]

...Huh? I just looked through the Paladin Oaths and even in 2014, none of them rely on your spellcasting at all. They're all either tied to the Paladin's Channel Divinity, Aura, or they are entirely unique add-on powers.

Ex: Devotion can enchant their weapon, turn fiends/undead, charm immunity, constant pro evil
Ex: Ancients can snare foes, turn fey/fiends, spell resistance, orc-y endurance
etc.


If what you meant is that a paladin with smite + spells will be stronger than one with smite alone - I mean sure, that's obvious, but the discrepancy between those two is not nearly great enough to justify bolting on the entire fighter class instead.

Every oath has oath spells in addition to their features. Some of those spells are very defining: Vengeance with Hunter's Mark, for example. All that is good and fine for btb paladins. For what I'm doing, just having paladin as a fighter subclass doesn't leave much room for the paladin oaths. And I'm fine with that. Like I said, paladin was a fighter subclass up till 3e, and no oaths.

And no, I'm not "bolting on the entire fighter class." Exactly the opposite. I want to develop a subclass for fighter that captures the essence of what a paladin is. Other than spells, that's mainly smiting, healing and protection.

[JNAProductions]

Every oath has oath spells in addition to their features. Some of those spells are very defining: Vengeance with Hunter's Mark, for example. All that is good and fine for btb paladins. For what I'm doing, just having paladin as a fighter subclass doesn't leave much room for the paladin oaths. And I'm fine with that. Like I said, paladin was a fighter subclass up till 3e, and no oaths.

And no, I'm not "bolting on the entire fighter class." Exactly the opposite. I want to develop a subclass for fighter that captures the essence of what a paladin is. Other than spells, that's mainly smiting, healing and protection.

And what you did was take the majority of a Paladin's combat and tacked it onto the Fighter.

[paladinn]

There were paladins before there were smites too. So those aren't essential either.


No, the original 0e paladin had a "Dispel Evil" ability that was totally broken. A juiced-up Dispel Magic+Turn Undead+Banishment that was way OP. But no spells either. I think adapting the Smite ability is a good compromise.



I would limit to 2d8 a limited number of times per rest and once per turn. I would not even consider adding improved divine smite's 1d8 to every attack.


A 2d8 limit really eliminates the paladin's ability to bring the smackdown when really needed. I want to maintain the "smite point pool" idea as a resource to be managed. Maybe changing improved smite to Only apply to smites, not "every attack."



EK's might be able to cast fireball at level 13, but that is not their core role in a party.

According to ?

[paladinn]

And what you did was take the majority of a Paladin's combat and tacked it onto the Fighter.

The one combat feature is smites, which I'm in the process of nerfing. But this paladin also doesn't get some combat features of other subclasses, or the spellcasting of an EK.

[JNAProductions]

A 2d8 limit really eliminates the paladin's ability to bring the smackdown when really needed. I want to maintain the "smite point pool" idea as a resource to be managed. Maybe changing improved smite to Only apply to smites, not "every attack."

With your original proposal, that'd be worth 69d8 damage over the course of 23 hits. 310.5, ignoring crits.
With the slower progression, that's still 48d8 over the course of 16 hits. 216 average damage, ignoring crits.

Compare to a Battlemaster, who at level 15 has 6d10 Superiority Dice per short rest, for 33 damage. Relentless can give a handful of extras.
To match the damage of the slower progression, you'd need about five Short Rests and a handful of Relentless triggers.

Maneuvers are slightly better than Smites in most cases (rider effects) but, considering that's basically all the Battlemaster has, while your proposal gets Lay On Hands and Auras while putting out six or more times the bonus damage, it's not even close to parity. Even if you think the Fighter should see some improvements (which I agree with, but not a ton in combat) it's far too much.


The one combat feature is smites, which I'm in the process of nerfing. But this paladin also doesn't get some combat features of other subclasses, or the spellcasting of an EK.

And Auras, which are a MASSIVE defensive benefit.
And Lay On Hands, which is a large pool of healing.

[paladinn]

With your original proposal, that'd be worth 69d8 damage over the course of 23 hits. 310.5, ignoring crits.
With the slower progression, that's still 48d8 over the course of 16 hits. 216 average damage, ignoring crits.

Compare to a Battlemaster, who at level 15 has 6d10 Superiority Dice per short rest, for 33 damage. Relentless can give a handful of extras.
To match the damage of the slower progression, you'd need about five Short Rests and a handful of Relentless triggers.

Maneuvers are slightly better than Smites in most cases (rider effects) but, considering that's basically all the Battlemaster has, while your proposal gets Lay On Hands and Auras while putting out six or more times the bonus damage, it's not even close to parity. Even if you think the Fighter should see some improvements (which I agree with, but not a ton in combat) it's far too much.



And Auras, which are a MASSIVE defensive benefit.
And Lay On Hands, which is a large pool of healing.

LoH has been modified to give another creature a 2nd Wind use. The auras may need some work.

For the smites, would it help to limit to a number of times/ long rest equal to proficiency bonus? Still limited smite pool. Resource management.

[Intregus182]

Hola all,

Everyone here knows I love paladins (duh). And most of y'all know that I prefer a spell-less paladin, in order to differentiate from clerics. I believe paladins are warriors-with-benefits, or should be.

With that in mind, I've been playing with the idea of having a paladin option as a fighter subclass. As with most subclasses, it would share the core features with all other fighters. For subclass features, I have the following:

L3: Divine Sense, Divine Health, Lay On Hands, Divine Smite
L7: Aura of Protection
L10: Aura of Courage
L15: Improved Smite
L18: Improved Auras

For the LoH featured, I'd start the "paladin level" at L3. A paladin can heal a total of 5x the paladin level per long rest.

For the smiting, again I would start the feature at L3. Same basic rules as BtB 5e, but converting spells to "smite points":

L3 2 pts
L4-5 3 pts
L6 -7 8 pts
L8-9 10 pts
L10-11 16 pts
L12-13 19 pts
L14-15 23 pts
L16-17 27 pts
L18-19 36 pts
L20 41 pts

Smites would work BtB: one point adds 2d8 damage; each additional point adds 1d8, to a max of 5d8. L15+ adds 1d8 more.

I'm not adding paladin-subclass features because this already adds a lot. But I don't think it's any more OP than the eldritch knight subclass; and this doesn't have spells.

Any thoughts, or improvements?

Basing this of the EK is great however looking at what your giving your subclass vs an EK.....the paladin as a subclass is getting a lot more.

EK at level 3 is getting cantrips and spell spell slots. I'd say the equivalent in your class is smites. Smiting, id say, is that good since you get to guarantee smite whenever you hit.

The other level 3 EK ability is bonded weapon which isn't amazing isn't bad and I'd say is the equivalent to either lay on hands (with you making that an additional use of your second wind that you can use on another) OR divine sense and divine health.

But not both. If I were you divine sense and divine health aren't necessary to make you feel like a paladin. You can also grant them at later levels.

I think giving them the auras when you do is fine. Same with improved auras.

The only remaining issue I see is improved smites.

The paladins improved smites ability is to keep their damage up as the game progresses into higher levels the same is true for the fighters extra attack at level 11 as well as the clerics level 8 features etc. Giving the fighter improved smites is double dipping and unnecessary. As well as isn't core to being a paladin or feeling like a paladin. To keep this balanced remove improved smites.

Not sure what you'd do instead or if you'd push all the auras down and at level 7 give them divine health divine sense and maybe the ability to cast find steed?

[Atranen]

I like this idea. I agree that the Paladin has...at least changed substantially by becoming 'the oath guy' instead of 'LG holy warrior'. True, it has enabled some things...a martial divine half caster can fill a lot of niches, better than a Cleric can. But, OOTS books 2 & 3 would not work as well in context of the 5e Paladin. I don't often see people talk about Paladins falling anymore. In many cases, the oath is kind of an afterthought...

But I digress. It is a good idea. The key thing is to not make it too strong.

Lay on Hands = your paladin level seems right to me; a bit of extra healing. I like the way it works as a pool of hp. You could have it swap for second wind when you get to 3rd level.

Smites: I don't like the smite points idea, and it is the source of the 'overpowered' concerns. Might I suggest something like the 3.5 Smite Evil ability? Useable only against evil targets, add your CHA to hit and level to damage. Make it useable, say 2 or 3/day when you pick it up. A bonus to hit that stacks with bless may open up too many GWM shenanigans...maybe make it so you have to declare prior to hitting. Then 3/day seems fine to me. You can pick up additional uses at higher levels.

[ArmyOfOptimists]

One option for Improved Smite is to change it out with a feature that allows the Fighter to change their weapon attacks to Radiant damage. As others have pointed out, the Fighter already has Improved Extra Attack to push their damage at higher levels. Stacking Improved Smite on top of that is an compounding increase, extra damage that also gets multiplied by the extra attacks.

Giving the option to turn your base Longsword damage from 1d8 Slashing to 1d8 Radiant lowers it to more of a ribbon feature, with the bonus of helping get around pesky physical resistances or hit specific vulnerabilities. It also feels pretty Paladin-y to me and keeps the theme of the original feature. You get so powerful that even your normal strikes count as holy attacks.

Lay on Hands becoming an Improved Second Wind that you can use on others feels right. Second Wind always feels neglected as a Fighter feature. It'd be nice to see a subclass do something with it.

As far as Smite "points" go. I think it'd work better if you just used the existing Battlemaster or Bard mechanic of having Smite Dice. You start with a handful of D8s and get them upgraded to D10s or D12s as you level. They'd be weaker than Battlemaster maneuvers, but the Battlemaster is only his maneuvers. Your Paladin gets Auras and healing on top of that. On the plus side, they'd probably refresh on a Short Rest which makes the subclass jive with the Fighter chassis more.

[paladinn]

As others have pointed out, the Fighter already has Improved Extra Attack to push their damage at higher levels. Stacking Improved Smite on top of that is an compounding increase, extra damage that also gets multiplied by the extra attacks.

At this point I'm wondering if and how many features of the core class need to be moved to a "basic" fighter subclass.. a Champion on steroids, if that's not repetitious.

[Psyren]

Every oath has oath spells in addition to their features. Some of those spells are very defining: Vengeance with Hunter's Mark, for example. All that is good and fine for btb paladins. For what I'm doing, just having paladin as a fighter subclass doesn't leave much room for the paladin oaths. And I'm fine with that. Like I said, paladin was a fighter subclass up till 3e, and no oaths.

All the Oaths are feature-complete subclasses even if they granted no bonus spells at all. People would still take Ancients without Misty Step for example. With that said, you're ditching them anyway (which I suppose means also ditching Channel Divinity?) so it's moot.


And no, I'm not "bolting on the entire fighter class." Exactly the opposite. I want to develop a subclass for fighter that captures the essence of what a paladin is. Other than spells, that's mainly smiting, healing and protection.

As others have said though, Fighter Attacks + Smite is too much burst. Your best bet is to limit smite to 1/round, X/SR, and cap the scaling.


I don't often see people talk about Paladins falling anymore.

I thank all the gods and 5e designers for that. Those were frequently among the most toxic threads on the 3.5e forum.

[paladinn]

So someone suggested abandoning the smite points idea and just going with a model similar to 3.5. So if I did, L3 would allow 1 smite/long rest. L7 would be 2; L10 would be 3; L15 would be 4; L18 would be 5. In 3.5, extra damage was equal to paladin level, which would be 2 less than the fighter level. In PF the damage was doubled against a undead or fiends, but would that be OP?

That would of course eliminate Improved Smite at L15. Maybe add a Aura of Devotion or Resolve or Warding?

[Bobthewizard]

No, the original 0e paladin had a "Dispel Evil" ability that was totally broken. A juiced-up Dispel Magic+Turn Undead+Banishment that was way OP. But no spells either. I think adapting the Smite ability is a good compromise.

I played 1e. They didn't have smites or dispel evil then. They just got cleric spells.

In ODD they were a community created Greyhawk specific supplement, so not sure that should count.

[Amnestic]

Putting my money where my mouth is, I'm presenting the Martial Archetype - Oathbound Warden (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/pZZ96gRYMsxj)

3rd:-
Radiant Touch - Lets you Second Wind another creature. From 5th lets you purge a disease/poison in exchange for 5 points of Healing.
Oathbound Smite - Smite Spells (mostly existing ones, some new ones) turned into pseudo-maneuvers. 1+ChaMod uses, regain 1 on SR, all on LR. Damage scales with class level (1d8->5d8 in line with half-caster spell levels), no spell components or concentration aspects involved. Start with 2 Smites known, end with 7 at 20th level.

7th:-
Divine Health
Divine Sense

unchanged from Paladin, just moved back in the levels.

10th:-
Aura of Warding - Aura of Protection but half-chamod rounded up (min 1) instead of chamod. Doesn't stack with Aura of Protection.

15th:-
Improved Oathbound Smite - regain a Smite use if you've got 1 or 0 remaining when you roll initiative. Also regain a use if the target rolls a 1 on a saving throw (this one is just for fun mostly, it's a 'nice moment' rather than something you're relying on)
Improved Radiant Touch - End a spell effect on the target of your Radiant Touch (i.e. Cleansing Touch from Paladin rolled into Radiant Touch)

18th:-
Improved Aura of Protection - Radius boost to 30ft.

[paladinn]

I played 1e. They didn't have smites or dispel evil then. They just got cleric spells.

In ODD they were community created a Greyhawk specific supplement, so not sure that should count.

I didn't say 1e. I said 0e, i.e. OD&D. And if that doesn't count, we shouldn't have had the thief/rogue, which Also debuted in Greyhawk.

[paladinn]

For LoH, in old-school games the healing pool was 2 points/paladin level, but only usable once/day. Thinking maybe to keep that number of points but make it divisible.

[Bobthewizard]

I didn't say 1e. I said 0e, i.e. OD&D. And if that doesn't count, we shouldn't have had the thief/rogue, which Also debuted in Greyhawk.

I didn't say we shouldn't have paladins or thief rogues, I just wouldn't base the abilities on that supplement.


Putting my money where my mouth is, I'm presenting the Martial Archetype - Oathbound Warden (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/pZZ96gRYMsxj)

Nice job. It gets the flavor without being OP.

[paladinn]

A little off-topic.. Are there any fighter base features that would be better moved to a basic subclass (i.e. Champion or Brute or ?)

[Kane0]

Sounds almost like zealot, but for fighter.

[paladinn]

Sounds almost like zealot, but for fighter.

Not quite. Barbarians, even zealots, are all about the rage, even their "divine" powers.

[Yakk]

A little off-topic.. Are there any fighter base features that would be better moved to a basic subclass (i.e. Champion or Brute or ?)
There is a 5e design problem in that if you move too much power budget to a subclass, you end up with subclasses that don't provide that power budget.

Classes that have base class offensive buffs at level 11 have a solid increase. Paladin +1d8 radiant damage on every hit? Fighter extra attack? Both solid. Artificers get a spell-storing item, which is bonkers.

Full spellcasters get 6th level spells, a solid upgrade. Plus their cantrips get an upgrade (if they still use them).

Monks, Rangers, Rogues? None of them have an offensive base boost around level 11.

Rangers and Monks get a subclass feature at 11, Rogues at 9 and 13. But the best subclass features ... are usually weaker than the base class Paladin/Fighter ones.

So, I'd answer that in theory, it would be nice having more power budget for the subclass, like level 11 extra attack, to let different classes get a power boost that is different. But in practice that just leads to lackluster results.

...

Instead, what I'd suggest is adding "feature swaps" to subclasses.

So a subclass can feature swap a standard class feature. This ensures (design wise) that you won't be offering a lemon feature. If you want to feature swap extra attack(2), you gotta offer something good or it will be ignored.

As an example, Brute:
Powerful Blows
At level 11, you can choose to gain the Powerful Blow feature instead of Extra Attack. Your weapon attacks deal an extra set of weapon damage dice, and the first time you hit a creature on your turn you add your proficiency bonus to your damage.

...

Lets look at a PAM Duelist using a +1 weapon. Base attack is:
(1d10+8)x3 + (1d4+8)x1
for an average of 51 DPR if everything hits.

With Powerful Blows you'd instead get:
4 + (2d10+8)x2 + (2d4+8)
for a total of ... 55 DPR if everything hits.

For a TWF character:
(1d6+5)x4 = 34 DPR
vs
4 + (2d6+5)x3 = 40 DPR

For a GWF with GWM:
(2d6B1+15)*3 = 70 (at -5 to hit)
vs
4+(4d6B1+15)*2 = 67.333 (at -5 to hit)

without GWM:
(2d6B1+5)*3 = 40
4+(4d6B1+5)*2 = 47.333

Ie, this is a reasonable feature swap (a modest upgrade in a few cases, and definitely feels different).

...

With that kind of "feature swap", you'd have room for Paladin smite damage to be non-trivial, especially after level 11.

...

Note that relying on feature swaps is one of the reasons why monk 4e sucks - it gets alternative ways to spend Ki that are no more efficient than base class ways to spend Ki, so ends up being a feature-neutral subclass.

[Kane0]

Level 3: Divine Smite
Once per turn, you can add 2d8 radiant damage to a melee weapon attack that hits, or 3d8 against undead or fiends.
You can do this three times per rest.

Level 3: Lay on Hands
You can use your second wind a second time per short rest, and you can choose to heal another creature you touch instead of yourself.

Level 7: Divine Health
You are immune to disease, and when you use second wind it also cures one disease on the recipient.

Level 10: Divine Grace
You add your Charisma bonus to all saving throws

Level 15: Aura of Courage
You and any ally within 30 feet of you are immune to being Frightened while you are conscious

Level 18: improved divine smite
All your weapon attacks deal an extra 1d8 radiant damage

[paladinn]

Level 3: Divine Smite
Once per turn, you can add 2d8 radiant damage to a melee weapon attack that hits, or 3d8 against undead or fiends.
You can do this three times per rest.

Level 3: Lay on Hands
You can use your second wind a second time per short rest, and you can choose to heal another creature you touch instead of yourself.

Level 7: Divine Health
You are immune to disease, and when you use second wind it also cures one disease on the recipient.

Level 10: Divine Grace
You add your Charisma bonus to all saving throws

Level 15: Aura of Courage
You and any ally within 30 feet of you are immune to being Frightened while you are conscious

Level 18: improved divine smite
All your weapon attacks deal an extra 1d8 radiant damage

Not bad.. Since the Aura isn't gained till L15, I'm thinking to make it an Aura of Protection and maybe fold in Courage.

Combined with other fighter features, is the damage output anywhere comparable to the paladin-class?

Is DivineSense not worth working into the mix?

[Kane0]

I ran the damage closer to what you might see from a battlemaster or arcane archer, since those are existing fighter subclasses

You could probably squeeze divine sense into level 7?

[Yakk]

I'd make Second Wind apply to yourself and another target.

[Composer99]

I do like the idea of a paladin as a fighter archetype, especially for playing 5e in a more "old-school" style, or even an old-school 5e-like game.

I do think the version in the original post at the time of this writing remains overpowered relative to other fighter subclasses, due to the plentitude of smite points.

I would suggest either one of:

(1) Proficiency bonus number of smites per long rest, with each individual smite doing an amount of radiant damage that scales - albeit very slowly - as the paladin gains levels: 2d8 at 3rd level, 3d8 at 15th, say. (The scaling comes from the increased number of smites.)

(2) Proficiency bonus number of Smite Dice per short or long rest, with the paladin being able to apply these dice to an attack.

Both of these have been discussed upthread, as I recall.

The fighter's primary damage increase is its extra attacks, so paladin-as-fighter-subclass does not need a lot of scaling damage.

I also like the idea of the paladin's Lay on Hands using the mechanics of Second Wind, rather than a fixed pool of hit points, since it relates back to the core fighter features.

[Yakk]

Here is a stab at it.

Lay on Hands
Starting at 3rd level, when you use Second Wind, you can heal 1 creature adjacent to you as well. In addition, you can expend up to half of your HD (round down) in order to increase the amount healed by the Second Wind.

Divine Sense
Starting at 3rd level, you are considered proficient with insight, perception and investigation checks involving undead or fiends. In addition, you add double your proficiency bonus to such checks if you are trained when the subject is undead or fiends.

Divine Smite
Starting at 7th level, when you hit a creature, you can forgo one extra attack and deal 4d8 additional radiant damage. If the creature is undead or a fiend it instead deals 5d8 radiant damage.

Aura of Protection
Starting at 7th level, as a reaction you may grant a creature within 10' of you a bonus to a saving throw equal to your charisma modifier when they fail the saving throw. In addition, you are immune to disease.

Superior Divine Smite
Starting at 10th level, the first time you hit a creature on your turn you deal an extra +1d8 radiant damage, and your Divine Smite deals 5d8 radiant damage, or 6d8 radiant damage on a fiend or undead.

Cleansing Touch
Starting at 15th level, when you heal a creature with Second Wind, you can neutralize one disease, poison, spell or other similar effect on them.

Holy Implements
Starting at 18th level, you can cast Holy Weapon once per long rest. In addition, you can cast Find Greater Steed once per long rest.

---

The trick here is that you sacrifice extra attacks to deal smite damage. An attack deal about 10-20 damage.

Swapping that for 4d8 (18) radiant damage is nice, but not an insane upgrade. The main advantage is it can't miss, and it gets doubled on a crit.

This allows divine smite to have a far larger impact without it being a large power boost.

Aura of Protection is a weaker version of the Paladin Aura.

Holy Implements finally gives 2 iconic Paladin spells.

[paladinn]

Here is a stab at it.

Lay on Hands
Starting at 3rd level, when you use Second Wind, you can heal 1 creature adjacent to you as well. In addition, you can expend up to half of your HD (round down) in order to increase the amount healed by the Second Wind.

Divine Sense
Starting at 3rd level, you are considered proficient with insight, perception and investigation checks involving undead or fiends. In addition, you add double your proficiency bonus to such checks if you are trained when the subject is undead or fiends.

Divine Smite
Starting at 7th level, when you hit a creature, you can forgo one extra attack and deal 4d8 additional radiant damage. If the creature is undead or a fiend it instead deals 5d8 radiant damage.

Aura of Protection
Starting at 7th level, as a reaction you may grant a creature within 10' of you a bonus to a saving throw equal to your charisma modifier when they fail the saving throw. In addition, you are immune to disease.

Superior Divine Smite
Starting at 10th level, the first time you hit a creature on your turn you deal an extra +1d8 radiant damage, and your Divine Smite deals 5d8 radiant damage, or 6d8 radiant damage on a fiend or undead.

Cleansing Touch
Starting at 15th level, when you heal a creature with Second Wind, you can neutralize one disease, poison, spell or other similar effect on them.

Holy Implements
Starting at 18th level, you can cast Holy Weapon once per long rest. In addition, you can cast Find Greater Steed once per long rest.

---

The trick here is that you sacrifice extra attacks to deal smite damage. An attack deal about 10-20 damage.

Swapping that for 4d8 (18) radiant damage is nice, but not an insane upgrade. The main advantage is it can't miss, and it gets doubled on a crit.

This allows divine smite to have a far larger impact without it being a large power boost.

Aura of Protection is a weaker version of the Paladin Aura.

Holy Implements finally gives 2 iconic Paladin spells.

I like quite a bit of this. The idea of sacrificing extra attack to smite is a good way to balance things. And it makes sense that if a paladin is facing the Big Bad, s/he would want to put everything s/he has into the one big smite.

Is this an at-will thing?

[Yakk]

I like quite a bit of this. The idea of sacrificing extra attack to smite is a good way to balance things. And it makes sense that if a paladin is facing the Big Bad, s/he would want to put everything s/he has into the one big smite.

Is this an at-will thing?
Yes, the smite is not limited.

The idea is you make an attack, and if it hits you can choose to smite instead of making your 2nd attack.

4d8 (18) is a tempting amount of damage to replace a swing with. We can compare it to a GWM (2d6B1+15) which is 23.3 with a decent chance of missing, or a PAM spear-tap (1d6+7 = 10.5).

At level 11 you have 2 chances to land a smite. The last swing on your turn cannot smite.

Double Scimitar, PAM and TWF Palafighters can land 2 smites at level 11 (!) as written. I might want to restrict smite to be an attack from the attack action to prevent this, delaying double-smite until level 20.

So 2nd pass. Important changes are italic. Syntactic cleanup not marked up.

Lay on Hands
Starting at 3rd level, when you use Second Wind, you can heal 1 adjacent creature as well; they are healed the same amount. In addition you can expend up to half of your HD (round down) in order to increase the amount healed by the adjacent creature by the Second Wind.

Divine Sense
Starting at 3rd level, when making a wisdom(insight), wisdom(perception) or intelligence(investigation) check involving undead or fiends, you can add your proficiency bonus to the check if you are not already proficient. If you are already adding your proficient bonus, you are considered to have expertise; ie, you can instead add twice your proficiency bonus to such checks.

Divine Smite
Starting at 7th level, when you hit a creature as part of the attack action with a melee weapon attack, you can forgo one extra attack granted by the attack action and deal 4d8 additional radiant damage. If the creature is undead or a fiend it instead takes 5d8 radiant damage.

Aura of Protection
Starting at 7th level, as a reaction you may grant a creature within 10' of you a bonus to a saving throw equal to your charisma modifier when they fail a saving throw. In addition, you are immune to disease.

Superior Divine Smite
Starting at 10th level, the first time you hit a creature on your turn you deal an extra +1d8 radiant damage. In addition, your Divine Smite ability deals 5d8 radiant damage, or 6d8 radiant damage on a fiend or undead.

Cleansing Touch
Starting at 15th level, creatures healed by your Second Wind are cured of one status condition. They can remove one poison, diseases, spell effect, or similar when they are healed.

Holy Implements
Starting at 18th level, you can cast the spells Holy Weapon and Find Greater Steed without expending a spell slot. You can cast each spell once, and can only do so again once you have completed a long rest. If the Holy Weapon ends due to you becoming unconscious or incapacitated, you can choose to emit the burst of radiance described in the spell.

---

1. I made Lay on Hands HD sacrifice only heal the adjacent creature. While I do like that it healed yourself and another creature (makes it tactically interesting; do you use it when only yourself or only another is injured?), and I also liked being able to make it bigger by using HD, getting double-healing-from-HD was a bit much.

2. I limited Divine Smite to using Attack action attacks, and only melee weapon attacks. This is not intended as a bow-build.

3. I added Holy Weapon bursting when you are KO'd as a fun ribbon. You don't get to do this if you lose concentration from damage, but if you go down while concentrating it is fun.

I think it should give the feel of a smite-paladin. I dislike the lack of channel divinity/oath type stuff however. Not much room for it; this is already chock-full.

I'm wondering if we can add modules to replace the lay on hands maybe?

[glass]

I played 1e. They didn't have smites or dispel evil then. They just got cleric spells. I didn't say 1e. I said 0e, i.e. OD&D.You also said paladins have "always" had smite, and if the 1e Paladin did not then that would not be "always" even if the 0e Paladin did - I assume that was the point of Bobthewizard's comment. FWIW, regardless of whether 0-1e Paladins had smite, 2e Paladin definitely did not (I happen to have my 2e PHB handy).

OTOH, I have no idea what they were talking about when they said this...
In ODD they were a community created Greyhawk specific supplement, so not sure that should count.AFAIK, the OD&D Paladin was in supplement 1, which (despite the name) had basically nothing to do with Greyhawk and definitely wasn't "community created".


The whole Oath concept was new in 5e (except for a minor mention in Pathfinder). And that was because Every class had to have subclasses. Until 5e it wasn't a thing.That's debatable. Pretty much all prior edition paladins had a supernaturally enforced code of conduct. What they did not have was a choice of different oaths (in 5e terms they were all Oath of Devotion Paladins).


Likewise in 0e-2e, paladins were always labeled a "fighter subclass," which IMO is a good thing.This OTOH is not even debatable.

I cannot speak to 0e on this score, but AIUI the 1e Paladin shifted from being a Fighter subclass to a Cavalier subclass when the Cavalier was published, without that shift changing the class in any major way. Which demonstrates two things: 1) The 1e Paladin was not "always" a Fighter subclass, and 2) even if it had been, "subclass" meant something very different back then (so even if it had been true it would not have meant anything about 5e subclasses).

2e did not have subclasses in either the 1e or 5e sense, so the Paladin definitionally could not have been a subclass of anything there.

[Yakk]

"Red Box" (not-A)D&D had Paladin be a kind of optional Prestige class you could get at Fighter 9 (name level) if you where Lawful.

[ArmyOfOptimists]

I like Yakk's design. Feels like it keeps most of the Paladin feel without completely overpowering the subclass.

One thing that strikes me, though I haven't given much thought to how to do it, is the idea of merging Aura of Protection with Indomitable. Letting the Palafighter use Indomitable on nearby allies when they fail saving throws, perhaps? It feels weird to me that the subclass would have two unrelated features for interacting with failed saves. Unfortunately, Indomitable isn't picked up until level 9, leaving that 7th level subclass feature in a bad spot. On the other hand, the redesigned Smite Evil is already really strong for a 7th level feature so bumping Indomitable Aura back to level 9 wouldn't be a big loss.

[Yakk]

I like Yakk's design. Feels like it keeps most of the Paladin feel without completely overpowering the subclass.

One thing that strikes me, though I haven't given much thought to how to do it, is the idea of merging Aura of Protection with Indomitable. Letting the Palafighter use Indomitable on nearby allies when they fail saving throws, perhaps? It feels weird to me that the subclass would have two unrelated features for interacting with failed saves. Unfortunately, Indomitable isn't picked up until level 9, leaving that 7th level subclass feature in a bad spot. On the other hand, the redesigned Smite Evil is already really strong for a 7th level feature so bumping Indomitable Aura back to level 9 wouldn't be a big loss.

Moving to level 10 looks like:

Aura of Protection
Starting at 10th level, when you use Indomitable, you may use it in response to you or a creature within 10' failing a saving throw. When you use it, you and any creature of your choice within 10' may reroll their first failed save against the triggering effect. This reroll is at advantage, and adds your Charisma modifier to the reroll.

It no longer consumes the reaction, but does consume Indomitable. It grants advantage and +Cha to the reroll.

I stripped off disease immunity. We can put it somewhere else honestly as it is a ribbon.