Planescape, opinions?

[Brookshw]

Now that Planescape has officially released, I'm curious about the opinions of those who have a copy. Does anyone have thoughts to share, in general, about how it compares to the original, whatever you feel like talking about. Any input is welcome.

[DammitVictor]

It is much, much better than I expected it to be: it presents Sigil in a way that I feel is true to previous materials, and presents enough information about Sigil, the Outlands, and the Outer Planes to allow a DM to actually run a full Planescape campaign without needing to resort to the 2e materials. (I kinda hate that's where the bar is.) The rules material (on first glance) looks consistent and reasonable and very, very playable.

I'm frankly baffled by the decision not to include any new player races in the setting that was most iconic for its weird player options... but almost everything I would have expected them to include has already been published in other supplements, and needing other 5e books to play Planescape is still a lot better than needing to use the old campaign setting and convert everything.

I'd recommend it for fans of the original setting, or for new 5e fans looking to take the game in weird new directions.

[Brookshw]

snip

Thank you! Would you mind elaborating on the rules it offers a bit? I know they were baking factions into backgrounds, and generally covering Sigil and the gate towns, did they offer anything solid about travel or other features of different planes, traveling between planes through non-spell means (world tree, infinite staircase etc)?

I ask as Spelljammers 6 pages of setting rules left me very disappointed, wondering how much meat is on the bone for this book.

[Psyren]

I love the art so far!

And I appreciate that it can be bought piecemeal - if all you want are the feats, those are available for only $7, and the magic items for $4. I have friends I've been sharing that option with.

[DammitVictor]

Thank you! Would you mind elaborating on the rules it offers a bit? I know they were baking factions into backgrounds, and generally covering Sigil and the gate towns, did they offer anything solid about travel or other features of different planes, traveling between planes through non-spell means (world tree, infinite staircase etc)?

There are two Backgrounds (maybe three) and they both grant a feat. One is for planeswalkers, basically, that gives you a feat that attunes you to one of the Outer Planes. The other's a Faction thing, and I remember there's a list of skills associated (1:1) with the major Factions. I don't remember anything about the World Tree or the River Styx or the Infinite Staircase, but I mostly just skimmed through the books and I didn't look at the adventure book at all yet.

I am decidedly unimpressed with the quantity of player options and player-facing content, but what exists is of good quality.

What I saw was also exclusively about Sigil and the Outer Planes, with no content at all covering the Inner Planes or the Astral and the Ethereal or positing any theories about how to fit the Feywild, Shadowdark, and Far Realms into the Great Wheel cosmology.

[Telok]

Question: do they give solid advice or examples of how to move "planar" adventuring away from the now traditional "npc talks-go portal-fight through a theme dungeon/level-kill boss or get mcguffin-return portal-get head pats"?

[DammitVictor]

Question: do they give solid advice or examples of how to move "planar" adventuring away from the now traditional "npc talks-go portal-fight through a theme dungeon/level-kill boss or get mcguffin-return portal-get head pats"?

If so, that would be in the adventure book... let me get back to you.

The gazetteer book is chock full of thematic, bizarre plot hooks-- like a d8 or d20 for every Ward and every Gate town and so, and they're juicy.

[Brookshw]

Question: do they give solid advice or examples of how to move "planar" adventuring away from the now traditional "npc talks-go portal-fight through a theme dungeon/level-kill boss or get mcguffin-return portal-get head pats"?

Hey, wait a second....


npc talks-go portal-fight through a theme dungeon/level-kill boss or get mcguffin-return portal-get head pats"?

That's just called playing D&D!

[Psyren]

Hey, wait a second....



That's just called playing D&D!

Yeah, I'm not sure why sticking "portal" in there suddenly makes the standard gameplay loop bad.

[Brookshw]

Yeah, I'm not sure why sticking "portal" in there suddenly makes the standard gameplay loop bad.

I was mostly being tongue in cheek in my earlier reply, but to offer a better interpretation, I'm guessing that Telok's referring to how the 2e setting was aimed at a more philosophical bent, and it may have been their experience that groups would lean on D&D standards when running it rather than embracing what made the setting distinct. Speculation on my part, but if that's what they were getting at, okay, I get the question, though seems like it's more of a table level matter where people just stuck to defaults. A number of published PS adventures - at least those which weren't one shots - made decent attempts to match the setting's design goals (imo, Faction Wars continues to be one of the most interesting D&D adventures).

But...like, at the end of the day, it's not going to entirely stop being D&D, right?

[Millstone85]

positing any theories about how to fit the Feywild, Shadowdark, and Far Realms into the Great Wheel cosmology.The Shadowfell, unless you are talking about its underdark which in 4e was indeed called the Shadowdark. :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, here is what is known of the place of the Feywild and the Shadowfell in the 5e Great Wheel:

PHB p300. They are called material echoes, echo planes or mirror planes, being brighter/darker versions of the Material.
DMG p48-49. They possess borders with the Ethereal, meaning that casting the etherealness spell on those planes works.
MotM p194. The lore of the nightwalker implies that the Negative is most easily reached through the Shadowfell. By symmetry, one would expect the Feywild to have a special connection with the Positive.

Things got complicated with 5e Spelljammer, which kind of reinvented the Material as a collection of bubbles floating in the Astral. My headcanon from there is that the Feywild is likewise made of bubbles floating in the Positive, while the Shadowfell is made of bubbles floating in the Negative. I have made a map (https://i.imgur.com/MGdYZDZ.png) that goes further into homebrew territory. I am still planning to make a proper thread about it.

As for the Far Realm, singular, I think the general idea is that it is whatever background you draw the Great Wheel on.

[Unoriginal]

The Shadowfell, unless you are talking about its underdark which in 4e was indeed called the Shadowdark. :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, here is what is known of the place of the Feywild and the Shadowfell in the 5e Great Wheel:

PHB p300. They are called material echoes, echo planes or mirror planes, being brighter/darker versions of the Material.
DMG p48-49. They possess borders with the Ethereal, meaning that casting the etherealness spell on those planes works.
MotM p194. The lore of the nightwalker implies that the Negative is most easily reached through the Shadowfell. By symmetry, one would expect the Feywild to have a special connection with the Positive.

Things got complicated with 5e Spelljammer, which kind of reinvented the Material as a collection of bubbles floating in the Astral. My headcanon from there is that the Feywild is likewise made of bubbles floating in the Positive, while the Shadowfell is made of bubbles floating in the Negative. I have made a map (https://i.imgur.com/MGdYZDZ.png) that goes further into homebrew territory. I am still planning to make a proper thread about it.

As for the Far Realm, singular, I think the general idea is that it is whatever background you draw the Great Wheel on.

Indeed, the Feywild, Material and Shadowfell are overlaying planes, and intermediary steps between the Positive and Negative Energy Planes. The three overlaying planes share a border with the Etheral Plane, through which they are connected to the Inner Planes, and the Astral Plane, through which they are connecred to the Outer Planes.

The Far Real is everything outside of the Great Wheel, so your description is accurate too.

[Millstone85]

Indeed, the Feywild, Material and Shadowfell are overlaying planes, and intermediary steps between the Positive and Negative Energy Planes. The three overlaying planes share a border with the Etheral Plane, through which they are connected to the Inner Planes, and the Astral Plane, through which they are connecred to the Outer Planes.Interestingly, there are no astral color pools to the Feywild or the Shadowfell (DMG p47). This is part of the reason why I am interpreting the Material itself as being the Feywild and Shadowfell's border with the Astral.

[Sparky McDibben]

Yeah, I'm not sure why sticking "portal" in there suddenly makes the standard gameplay loop bad.

It's not bad, it's just boring by now. It's something we've seen continuously from WotC, and it feels lazy as hell.

[Brookshw]

Interestingly, there are no astral color pools to the Feywild or the Shadowfell (DMG p47). This is part of the reason why I am interpreting the Material itself as being the Feywild and Shadowfell's border with the Astral.

If I'm understanding you correctly, sure, makes sense and is consistent with prior edition canon, the astral should be a conduit from the material to the outer. Kinda weird they stuck ethereal portals to the astral, doesn't make much sense to me, should need to hop onto the connector on the material to reach the ethereal. #navigationisntaskill

[Telok]

It's not bad, it's just boring by now. It's something we've seen continuously from WotC, and it feels lazy as hell.

Thirty years ago I was in a campaign where we were taking a boat trip through all the planes on some great river that went through all of them. I think that was partly from a Dragon Mag article, part quasi-Planascape, and part DMG stuff. Visited Gamma World (compatable systems ftw), dealt with some enchanted road (pretty sure that one was homebrew thoughl, etc. But the last 20 years has all been wank little "portal to a theme dungeon for 5 to 15 battlemap size kill-em-all style encounters then return" and the post TSR era DMs don't seem to do anything else.

[Psyren]

It's not bad, it's just boring by now. It's something we've seen continuously from WotC, and it feels lazy as hell.


Thirty years ago I was in a campaign where we were taking a boat trip through all the planes on some great river that went through all of them. I think that was partly from a Dragon Mag article, part quasi-Planascape, and part DMG stuff. Visited Gamma World (compatable systems ftw), dealt with some enchanted road (pretty sure that one was homebrew thoughl, etc. But the last 20 years has all been wank little "portal to a theme dungeon for 5 to 15 battlemap size kill-em-all style encounters then return" and the post TSR era DMs don't seem to do anything else.

I mean, you said it better than I could - deviating from the standard loop is your DM's job.


Interestingly, there are no astral color pools to the Feywild or the Shadowfell (DMG p47). This is part of the reason why I am interpreting the Material itself as being the Feywild and Shadowfell's border with the Astral.

You can get to the Inner Planes without going to the Material by taking a Color Pool to the Ethereal and then passing through an Ethereal Curtain.

[Millstone85]

Kinda weird they stuck ethereal portals to the astral, doesn't make much sense to me, should need to hop onto the connector on the material to reach the ethereal.
You can get to the Inner Planes without going to the Material by taking a Color Pool to the Ethereal and then passing through an Ethereal Curtain.Yes, that particular pool is quite the anomaly. And somehow doing the journey in the other direction is more difficult, as there is no curtain to the Astral. You would instead have to throw yourself into an ether cyclone and pray for that one-in-twenty chance to be hurled into the Astral.

Unless each type of portal goes both ways. I am not clear on this. There is also the issue that a curtain leads to the ethereal border of a plane, not the plane itself, so a traveller would need some sort of reverse etherealness magic to finish their journey from the Astral to an elemental or echo plane.

[afroakuma]

The monster selection struck me as decent. The relative paucity of material on the Planes themselves, as you can imagine, wasn't quite my cup of tea... but on the other hand I wouldn't have gotten to fix said problem had they attended to it. :smallwink:

[Crusher]

It is much, much better than I expected it to be: it presents Sigil in a way that I feel is true to previous materials, and presents enough information about Sigil, the Outlands, and the Outer Planes to allow a DM to actually run a full Planescape campaign without needing to resort to the 2e materials. (I kinda hate that's where the bar is.) The rules material (on first glance) looks consistent and reasonable and very, very playable.

I'm frankly baffled by the decision not to include any new player races in the setting that was most iconic for its weird player options... but almost everything I would have expected them to include has already been published in other supplements, and needing other 5e books to play Planescape is still a lot better than needing to use the old campaign setting and convert everything.

I'd recommend it for fans of the original setting, or for new 5e fans looking to take the game in weird new directions.

This was the key post, imo, nailing all the big points. The books do a wonderful job of describing and explaining the setting of Sigil (including lots of useful plot hooks, how the power structure works, examples of stuff, etc). The campaign was really good. They did a pretty good job of describing Outland and the various gate towns along with introducing interesting and useful monsters, and finally they had barest of bones addition to player character options. I mean, one version of the adventure book's cover art is described as a "planar adventuring party" including a Modron adventurer with an eyepatch, so I was kind of excited for new races, yet they included absolutely nothing along those lines.

But, disappointment in character options aside, I really enjoyed the overall package and liked it a lot. Planning on running the campaign once current campaign ends (which I'd ballpark as around 6 months).

[Sparky McDibben]

I mean, you said it better than I could - deviating from the standard loop is your DM's job.

So if deviating from the "standard" is the job of the DM, why publish Planescape, a setting so far outside the standard that it famously redefined the entire cosmology? In fact, if we extend that position further, doesn't that mean that WotC should refrain from publishing anything except the core rulebooks? After all, every adventure is at least a little unique. And by your own logic, you've just consigned that to the DM.

[Psyren]

So if deviating from the "standard" is the job of the DM, why publish Planescape, a setting so far outside the standard that it famously redefined the entire cosmology? In fact, if we extend that position further, doesn't that mean that WotC should refrain from publishing anything except the core rulebooks? After all, every adventure is at least a little unique. And by your own logic, you've just consigned that to the DM.

I said the standard loop, i.e. leaving town, going to dungeons, killing the enemies there, and returning to town with the loot, then repeating. In very broad strokes, the majority of D&D modules and video games involve that loop. If you want something like a murder mystery or political intrigue or scavenger hunt campaign instead, you'll need your DM to run that.

[Sparky McDibben]

I said the standard loop, i.e. leaving town, going to dungeons, killing the enemies there, and returning to town with the loot, then repeating. In very broad strokes, the majority of D&D modules and video games involve that loop. If you want something like a murder mystery or political intrigue or scavenger hunt campaign instead, you'll need your DM to run that.

Oh, I see. So Wizards has never published any murder mysteries, or heists? Like Dragon Heist? Or Keys From the Golden Vault? Or half the adventures in Journey to the Radiant Citadel? Or 3/4s of Strixhaven?

What a fascinating argument.

[Psyren]

Oh, I see. So Wizards has never published any murder mysteries, or heists? Like Dragon Heist? Or Keys From the Golden Vault? Or half the adventures in Journey to the Radiant Citadel? Or 3/4s of Strixhaven?

What a fascinating argument.

Do you know what the word "majority" means? As in, not all?

[Sparky McDibben]

Do you know what the word "majority" means? As in, not all?

Man, those goal posts moved fast, didn't they?

[OvisCaedo]

Man, those goal posts moved fast, didn't they?

The goal posts for... what, exactly? It sort of looked like you two were agreeing that official adventure content doesn't break the pattern often.

[tokek]

I’ve had a fair while to look through it (long story) and having got past my surprise at the lack of player facing content I’m actually beginning to think it’s better for it. Low player content will hurt sales but makes room for more DM resources which are much needed in 5e

As a DM who always liked Sigil as a setting I really like it. I could quite easily use this to run the core of a campaign based in Sigil and the Outlands. It gives me plenty to work with while never making me feel they are railroading how I build my campaign

Solid stuff. Not amazing but solid

[Sparky McDibben]

The goal posts for... what, exactly? It sort of looked like you two were agreeing that official adventure content doesn't break the pattern often.

The goal posts moved on, "deviating from the normal loop is the DM's job," given how many times WotC has deviated from the standard "kill quest" model. At this point, though, I think I'm derailing the conversation. I'll simply add that I'm glad WotC is learning something from the Spelljammer flop.

[Brookshw]

The goal posts moved on, "deviating from the normal loop is the DM's job," given how many times WotC has deviated from the standard "kill quest" model. At this point, though, I think I'm derailing the conversation. I'll simply add that I'm glad WotC is learning something from the Spelljammer flop.

So let's refocus! Does anyone have input on the guidance it gives DMs for PS adventures? Also, does the sample adventure follow a traditional adventure route of smash-kill-loot, , or does it take a different route (from the reviews, seems like it's a certain video game with the serial # filed off?)?


The monster selection struck me as decent. The relative paucity of material on the Planes themselves, as you can imagine, wasn't quite my cup of tea... but on the other hand I wouldn't have gotten to fix said problem had they attended to it. :smallwink:

Heya Afro, always a pleasure.

[tokek]

So let's refocus! Does anyone have input on the guidance it gives DMs for PS adventures? Also, does the sample adventure follow a traditional adventure route of smash-kill-loot, , or does it take a different route (from the reviews, seems like it's a certain video game with the serial # filed off?)?

.

With the caveat that I have not run it - the adventure structure feels more like a macguffin hunt and works the players into revealing schemes within schemes.

[Brookshw]

With the caveat that I have not run it - the adventure structure feels more like a macguffin hunt and works the players into revealing schemes within schemes.

Sounds typical, how's the travel in it?

[afroakuma]

Heya Afro, always a pleasure.

I mean it's Planescape, you know I have to get involved.

[Brookshw]

I mean it's Planescape, you know I have to get involved.

Heh. That it's PS is the only reason I'm considering the purchase. Still not sure what it offers that 2e material doesn't already cover.

[Psyren]

Heh. That it's PS is the only reason I'm considering the purchase. Still not sure what it offers that 2e material doesn't already cover.

Lacking the 2e material myself (thought I have grognard friends who can dig it up if needed) I'm happy to start here.

For me personally, one of the larger draws was Crawford's statement that the Multiverse info in 2024 core would be closely tied to Planescape. So far I've found hints of that, like the Gith Reunification faction (Sha'sal Khou) headquartered in Xaos and running a front operation in the Lower Ward, or a displaced Krynn death knight who became a general in Rigus.

[afroakuma]

The official book mainly focuses on Sigil and the Outlands, with the gate towns focused. There's a lot of third-party stuff by various Planescape fans going up on DMsGuild, for whatever that's worth. I did like the bestiary and while the rilmani redesigns would not have been the direction I'd have gone with them, I think it's a much better and more distinctive aesthetic than 2E's, to say nothing of the miserable failure of 3E's. :smallannoyed:

[Pixel_Kitsune]

I've written the Campaign to follow up the end of my longer running Fey wild Campaign where they're all high level currently, looking forward to it.

I love Shemeska, bringing her back was brilliant. Love that we have at least a few of the Archons and Guardinals. I'm upset we have no Eladrin, but I also am not sure how they'd fold the Celestial Eladrin together with the newer Feywild idea. Though it's not hard (I do it in homebrew already).

Love that it's largely the old Factions complete with their leaders, None of the Die Vecna Die stuff or the Faction War already happening.

[thoroughlyS]

I am a big fan of the Outer Planes and the outsiders that populate them, and I just found out that this supplement reintroduces archons and guardinals, and I am SO GLAD to get official statblocks! I am sad that they didn't introduce a new CG exemplar to fill the hole made by moving "noble" eladrin to the Feywild, but two out of three ain't bad. Here's hoping we get lillendi and zelekhut back soon.

[Monster Manuel]

I
I'm frankly baffled by the decision not to include any new player races in the setting that was most iconic for its weird player options...

My totally unfounded assumption is that the lack of player-facing material in the boxed set means that we will have a "Morte's Guide to the Great Wheel" book coming up at some point next year, based on player response and general sales.

On the one hand, cash-grab, under-monetized, grumble grumble. On the other hand, we have been wanting them to actually SUPPORT the campaign settings they are putting out adventures for, and more Planescape content would be a welcome addition.

We need a supplement that details the great war between the people that pronounce the name of the city as "Si-jell" and those that pronounce it "Siggle", and the smoking wasteland left in its' wake. At least, I do.

[afroakuma]

I am a big fan of the Outer Planes and the outsiders that populate them, and I just found out that this supplement reintroduces archons and guardinals, and I am SO GLAD to get official statblocks! I am sad that they didn't introduce a new CG exemplar to fill the hole made by moving "noble" eladrin to the Feywild, but two out of three ain't bad. Here's hoping we get lillendi and zelekhut back soon.

Yes, I too was displeased about the whole eladrin kerfuffle, but then I thought, what if I could do something about that? And then I thought, what if I could tell people I did something about that? And then I thought, what did I do to my signature recently?

[Psyren]

We need a supplement that details the great war between the people that pronounce the name of the city as "Si-jell" and those that pronounce it "Siggle", and the smoking wasteland left in its' wake. At least, I do.

FWIW, WotC has apparently landed on "siggle" in their interviews so far.



I'm frankly baffled by the decision not to include any new player races in the setting that was most iconic for its weird player options... but almost everything I would have expected them to include has already been published in other supplements, and needing other 5e books to play Planescape is still a lot better than needing to use the old campaign setting and convert everything.

I'm sad Glitchling didn't make it out of the UA - but on the other hand, if there was any setting that could absorb the entirety of Core + MPMM + Spelljammer and have room to spare it would be this one.

[Brookshw]

FWIW, WotC has apparently landed on "siggle" in their interviews so far.

Hold on, I'll get my pitchfork

[Kane0]

We need a supplement that details the great war between the people that pronounce the name of the city as "Si-jell" and those that pronounce it "Siggle", and the smoking wasteland left in its' wake. At least, I do.

Hold on, I'll get my pitchfork
Given that a core premise of planescape is that belief impacts reality, it actually could be a legit civil war.

And its Sigil like vigil by the way.

[Brookshw]

And its Sigil like vigil by the way.

I like the cut of your jib.

[Sparky McDibben]

I like the cut of your jib.

But is that jib pronounced like gib?

[Vampyre_Lord]

And its Sigil like vigil by the way.

so "Viggle", got it

[Schwann145]

But is that jib pronounced like gib?

Clearly it's jib, pronounced like gif. :smallcool:

[Kane0]

It was a while ago, but this has been discussed before.
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?626597-Do-YOU-pronounce-Sigil-with-a-hard-or-soft-G