The Complete Psionic - What's wrong with it?

[Swooper]

I'm right now paging through the Complete Psionic. I have heard a lot of baaaaad things about this book, but I must say all three base classes it presents look interesting, playable, and fairly balanced as classes go (I haven't gotten very far, so I won't comment on the other chapters right now). I know the 'illithid heritage' feats are weeeeeird stuff (they imply your great-great grandfather was a mindflayer, and that doesn't fit with the Illithid reproductive cycle), and that the Astral Construct nerf isn't really popular (because it wasn't needed), but what is is about this book that people don't like? Also, what parts are good (because it can't be so awful there's not a single useful thing in it)?

(There may have been threads like this before, but my first search didn't come up with anything relevant and there's the annoying 5 minute delay on searches, so I just posted this. Throw me a link to a similar thread if you know one.)

[Mr. Friendly]

I'm right now paging through the Complete Psionic. I have heard a lot of baaaaad things about this book, but I must say all three base classes it presents look interesting, playable, and fairly balanced as classes go (I haven't gotten very far, so I won't comment on the other chapters right now). I know the 'illithid heritage' feats are weeeeeird stuff (they imply your great-great grandfather was a mindflayer, and that doesn't fit with the Illithid reproductive cycle), and that the Astral Construct nerf isn't really popular (because it wasn't needed), but what is is about this book that people don't like? Also, what parts are good (because it can't be so awful there's not a single useful thing in it)?

(There may have been threads like this before, but my first search didn't come up with anything relevant and there's the annoying 5 minute delay on searches, so I just posted this. Throw me a link to a similar thread if you know one.)

I like it - it's a good book. Lurks are spiffy IMO.

On Mind Flayers: Illithid Heritage feat....

Warning: Theory ahead!

The basic premise of this theory is that once the 'tadpole' is implanted in the host, it bonds on a genetic level with said host. (a la Alien Resurrection) At that point, all that is needed is for some rare (but common from an adventuring standpoint) event to occur, where a male party member is captured by illithids, implanted, then subsequently rescued by the party very quickly. One of the party members is his wife/girlfriend... bada-boom, bada-bing.... 9 months later she has a kid that looks perfectly normal, but on a genetic level has illithid DNA. And that genetic coding remains from generation to generation, so it really only had to happen once, ever, and that DNA is hidden away for the right PC to take the feats to activate it...

[Armads]

Look at the Illithid Blast feat. Read it again. And then try to figure out how to use it.

[Karsh]

My personal beef with it is the massive amount of fluff that goes completely against the grain of what psionics are supposed to be about. The Divine Mind is obviously the worst offender, as at that point you're not even a psionic character any more... you're a divine caster who casts using spell points instead of the Vancian system.

I also am a huge fan of Constructors/Shapers and was greatly irked by the Astral Construct nerf.

And, nearly all of the Prestige Classes are useless. I think it's a consensus that the Lurk was one of the few good things to come out of the book.

[Armads]

Another funny thing is that it's easier to enter Anarchic Initiate as a Psion than a wilder.

[NEO|Phyte]

On Mind Flayers: Illithid Heritage feat....

Warning: Theory ahead!

The basic premise of this theory is that once the 'tadpole' is implanted in the host, it bonds on a genetic level with said host. (a la Alien Resurrection) At that point, all that is needed is for some rare (but common from an adventuring standpoint) event to occur, where a male party member is captured by illithids, implanted, then subsequently rescued by the party very quickly. One of the party members is his wife/girlfriend... bada-boom, bada-bing.... 9 months later she has a kid that looks perfectly normal, but on a genetic level has illithid DNA. And that genetic coding remains from generation to generation, so it really only had to happen once, ever, and that DNA is hidden away for the right PC to take the feats to activate it...
A simpler theory is that since illithids are from the future, people with the Illithid Heritage feats are their ancestors.

[Swooper]

Look at the Illithid Blast feat. Read it again. And then try to figure out how to use it.
If we ignore the 'you can channel power points' part, it's very well defined. I think it's likely they were at first gonna make it cost PP to use, but changed it to psi-focus in development and forgot to change the wording. So, it goes like this:

Use standard action, drop psi-focus. Anyone in a 15ft cone must take a will save (DC = 10 + 1/2 HD + ChaMod) or be stunned for 1d4 rounds. And it's psi-like ability, useable once per day.

About the Anarchic Initiate... Yeah, I noticed that too, it's pretty weird. It's a very nice and flavourful PrC though. Perhaps a bit too good, but not so much next to some of the wizard PrCs.

[Indon]

I haven't encountered anything bad about psionics in 3.x D&D.

That said, I probably still retain some small amount of bias (which I try to ignore) that Psionics is nothing more than munchkin-fodder, from my experiences with the system in AD&D.

[Starbuck_II]

I haven't encountered anything bad about psionics in 3.x D&D.

That said, I probably still retain some small amount of bias (which I try to ignore) that Psionics is nothing more than munchkin-fodder, from my experiences with the system in AD&D.

Um, I don't understand what this was in reference to.

Complete Psionics is a Complete Book,

Psionics is in the Expanded Psionics Handbook or XPH.

[martyboy74]

Complete Psionic has psionic stuff. :smallwink:

Complete Psionic is usually derided for it's poor flavor (Illithid Heiritage and Divine Mind), unneeded nerfs (Astral Construct), it's lack of needed nerfs, poor PrCs, and the fact that much of it's content came from stuff already on the internet. Also, it was trying to step into the Complete line, somewhere that it had no buisness being.

[Armads]

The Stormlord doesn't have any psionic-related fluff in it.

[namo]

First : what's been said (AC nerf ! :smallmad:).
I really like the Ardent. Clerics should be more like that IMHO.

The nerf of powers scaling by 1 PP = +1 DC (Energy Missile, Energy Stun) is not a bad idea... but they introduce a new power that scales like that ! The editing is really poor. The Link Power feat is nice but hard to adjudicate - neither RAW nor RAI is clear. The Practiced Manifester feat is controversial - I personally like it.

Neither the Planar nor the Stygian powers, nor the "Psionic X" ones are very interesting. It's anecdotal, but Synchronicity is the source of many loopholes. The Erudite seems like a good idea too (psion variant at the end of the book), but I've never played one.

I'm not a stickler for the "great history of mind flayers", so the Heritage feats don't irk me too much, but I usually end up reflavoring them anyway. In an Underdark game where I was playing a psion of the Oblodra line, they became "Oblodra Heritage" : done.

[ghost_warlock]

A complaint that I haven't seen touched on yet is that many of the racial feats (use X-PLA 3/day rather than 1/day) are a needless waste of space and could have been just as easily collapsed into one feat. :smallmad:

The divine mind is a terrible idea. It essentially turns a psionic character into a tool in service of some god. Don't we already have paladins, clerics, favored souls, ad nauseum to do that? :smallconfused: Plus, you can net yourself a cheesy +12 bonus to initiative checks and grant your entire party a +8.

The ardent is, essentially, a cleric that uses power points. See what I said about the divine mind, above.

The illithid heritage stuff didn't bug me as much as some other people. It could have been improved if WotC bothered to proofread, though.

Yeah, the PrCs pretty much sucked.

Some of the powers stray from traditional psionic themes in that they channel divine entities, which shouldn't be surprising given that two of the classes introduced in the book do the same. Furthermore, they wasted still more space by re-printing the entire power list. Some of the powers are nice, though, especially if you want to run a total psionics setting and need someone who can heal semi-efficiently. :smallbiggrin:

I'm not a fan of the erudite. But, then, I wasn't when it was originally printed in DRAGON magazine, either.

I have to say, though, that the synad is an interesting PC race. :smallsmile:

It's not one of my favorite books, but it can be a handy resource.

[Artanis]

Just to add more fuel to the fire...

The Soulbow, one of the better PrCs in the book, starts off looking really cool. That is, until you realize that for no reason whatsoever, its levels don't stack with Soulknife levels for improving either class's built-in weapon. So the "ranged soulknife" actually benefits more from Ranger (or Druid, or whatever) levels than from what should be the blatantly obvious complement.

[Lord Tataraus]

I personally like CP. I can easily ignore the Astral Construct nerf and I ignore most flavor (except Illithid Heritage). With that stuff gone its a great book. I've always liked psionics and I think it really adds to the game especially if you want an all psionic party/campaign.

[kamikasei]

Also, it was trying to step into the Complete line, somewhere that it had no buisness being.

Somehow I don't think "because it's Psionics infecting the hitherto pure and unsullied Complete books, we must burn out the infestation" is the reason the WOTC Psionics forums seemed to dislike the book so much.

The sentiment there seems to be that they waited a long time for a follow-up to the XPH and CP didn't come close to living up. The violation of psionics' distinct flavor counted for a lot of that, I think.

[The_Snark]

Just to add more fuel to the fire...

The Soulbow, one of the better PrCs in the book, starts off looking really cool. That is, until you realize that for no reason whatsoever, its levels don't stack with Soulknife levels for improving either class's built-in weapon. So the "ranged soulknife" actually benefits more from Ranger (or Druid, or whatever) levels than from what should be the blatantly obvious complement.

Eh? It specifically states: "These enhancement bonuses stack with previous enhancement bonuses gained earlir for your soulknife class levels." In fact, it goes on to specify that the bonuses from both classes affect both mind arrows and mind blades.

In addition, you're getting Wis to damage and can get Wis to attack with one feat, along with a bonus feat every 2 levels. Much better than ranger levels.

On the whole: I can see why people disliked it. I agree with a lot of it. Elemental psionics and psionically calling angels and demons sort of went against the flavor of something different. It was as if WotC wanted to make it feel more like magic. Most of the people who liked psionics liked how it felt different.

Additional points...
-The prestige classes were mediocre. The anarchic initiate is okay except for the problem with its prerequisites, the soulbow is good, and the zerth cenobite at least had an interesting idea; most of the others weren't interesting in flavor or mechanics.

-Illithid Heritage feats. I never really got the problem with these. So these people are descended from the subjects of mind flayer experiments... where is the difficulty with that? The one place where it describes an illithid ancestor can and should be ignored.

-Classes. The Ardent was okay, I thought. Some people also liked the Lurk, but I can't see how it's better than the psychic rogue presented in the Mind's Eye, at all. Divine Mind wasn't very good, and both it and the Erudite are suspicuously like psionic versions of the paladin and wizard.

-Powers. Some of these are good. Some aren't, and reprinting the whole list means it's hard to browse through for new powers. There were a lot of powers that were just the psionic version of a spell. There was also errata, which was good in the case of Energy Missile and bad in the case of, say, Astral Construct.

[fendrin]

oh no, divine influence on psionics. boo hoo...
Not like the deities haven't meddled in everything else. I mean come on, divine warlocks! Two different PrCs! How many PrCs meld arcane and divine magic? Divine magic and incarnum? &etc. If it exists, there is a divine-influenced version.

The big problem is that it didn't get the same level of attention and respect at WotC as the other Complete books, and it shows. Bad editing and a lot of filler mar some really good content. For one thing, some of the mindblade feats can really help make a quasi-effective soulknife. The Ardent is awesome, and makes a great psi-gish.

[Theodoxus]

Just to add more fuel to the fire...

The Soulbow, one of the better PrCs in the book, starts off looking really cool. That is, until you realize that for no reason whatsoever, its levels don't stack with Soulknife levels for improving either class's built-in weapon. So the "ranged soulknife" actually benefits more from Ranger (or Druid, or whatever) levels than from what should be the blatantly obvious complement.

I have no idea what you mean...

pg 36 CPsi: "Powers or spells that upgrade your weapon can be used on a mind blade. Any feats previously requiring specific weapon choice (such as Weapon Specialization) for your mind blade also apply to your mind arrow."

Also on the same page: "your mind arrows improve... These enhancement bonuses stack with previous enhancement bonuses gained earlier for your soulknife levels..."

It goes on, and is pretty blatantly specific about how everything you do for either your mind blade or your mind arrows affects each other.

The +1 -> +5 enhancement stacks with each other, and the +1 -> +4 enhancement bonus stacks with each other.

I've just made a level progression for a soulknife/bow for my next character, and without adding additional classes or PrCs, I've come to the conclusion that SK 6/SB 3/SK 1/SB 1/SK 9 is statistically the best progression to go with, provided two caveats (houserules, ftw, obviously).

1) You can swap out Psychic Strike for bonus feats (I forget if there is a sanctioned alternate out there - but if not, anyone allowing the rogue/fighter alt should allow this)
2) You take the ruling on Soulbow enhancement bonus to affect their attack bonus pg 36 CPsi: "Likewise, these enhancement bonuses also improve your soulknife base attack bonus."

I was actually going to post my character here, with the two caveats noted, to see if it was an OOTS viable build.

I know the last time it came up (I searched the board for mind blade love (not a lot)) Person Man in particular was fine with increasing the soulknife/bow BAB by +1 for each enhancement bonus applied. Basically, it created an interesting progression, with a 3/4 BAB with hiccups.

[Artanis]

*checks*

My mistake, the Enhancement Bonuses do stack. I was thinking of the "special ability" bonuses (i.e. adding Flaming or Axiomatic) that explicitly doesn't stack.

:smallredface:

[Merlin the Tuna]

This is one of the rundowns I've seen of CPsi quite a few times. Seems complete, though I haven't read the book personally.


For one, it's one of the worst-edited books since the advent of 3.0. There are more mistakes and flagrant stupidity than I've come across in any book, ever. Take a good look at the Illithid Blast feat. Can you see what's wrong with it? Build a mockup character and try to use the feat. Can you do it? Nope. And that's just the very beginning.

For two, they wasted huge amounts of space when they could easily have condensed half the feats and several pages in the powers section down to almost nothing (such as the racial and soulknife feats). That they had to cut out a few dozen pages to make room for what's in there means that we got wasted space, in the place of potentially excellent material.

For three, we have very, very little in the way of expanding psionics as it is; instead, we got NEW base classes, and most of the support is for them. What if I want to actually have options for my current characters? What if I LIKE the classes in the XPHB? CPsi does very little for them.

For four, they reprinted a bunch of broken powers and such without editing or clarifying anything (which were definitely needed - check out Synchronicity + Affinity Field, or + Twin Power, or + Link Power, or + Extend Power). And who needs to have the same power printed in CPsi, when it's already in 2 other places?

For five, they nerfed several aspects of psionics (such as powers vs DR and Astral Construct) into near-unusability.

For six, a huge portion of the book is errata that we have to pay for (and it's not even frikken OGL!!!). Why not put it on this website? Nobody else has to pay for their errata.

For seven, most of the errata is stuff that was neither wanted nor needed. What happened to all of the dozens of questions we NEEDED answered, such as "How do you get your psicrystal back after it dies?" and "How the hell does Metaconcert actually work?" and "What kinds of actions can Schism do?" and "Why is the metamind such a sucky class?" and so on and so on. They completely ignored all of the things we've been asking about for years, and instead put up errata for things that nobody thought was broken, to fix problems that didn't exist.

For eight, there are so many parts of CPsi that can so break psionics. Link power has so many potential abuses it's not even funny. Anarchic initiate isn't for wilders (they can't even take the class until after 10th level, which means that they can't finish it out until epic); it's for psions...and it breaks them all to pieces. (See my gripe about Synchronicity above.)

For nine, we've waited several years to get some support for psionics, and all we get is a crappy book that is mostly wasted space, errata we have to pay for, brokenness, and editing errors out the wazoo, all in fewer pages than any of the other Completes. It's a throwaway book to placate the people who love psionics, and it does its job very, very badly.

There are others, but I'm leaving it at that. Heck, some psi-fans got together in their spare time and created a supplement that has better content, better editing, and has a much better approval rating than CPsi. Where CPsi is perhaps a 2/10, Untapped Potential rates much closer to a 9.5.

[Starbuck_II]

-Classes. The Ardent was okay, I thought. Some people also liked the Lurk, but I can't see how it's better than the psychic rogue presented in the Mind's Eye, at all. Divine Mind wasn't very good, and both it and the Erudite are suspicuously like psionic versions of the paladin and wizard.


Lurk is not a rogue. Use the Psionic Rogue if you want a Riogue.
The Lurk is an assassin.

[Swooper]

Right. A lot of what has been mentioned here makes sense now... I had only gone through the first chapter in detail when I posted this topic. Now, let's shift focus: What bits of it are useable and balanced and can be salvaged? Which bits require only minor adjusting to work?

Personally, I think all the base classes are fine, although the Ardent and the Divine Mind are pretty similar in concept and really should have been rolled into one class (preferably with the Ardent's fluff and some of the Divine Mind's mechanics mixed in... A psionic philosopher sounds much cooler than a psionic cleric, to me anyway). Out of the PrCs, the Ebon Saint isn't bad for that psionic assassin niche role. Really just an alternate progression for Lurks, or the occasional Psychic Rogue.

The Anarchic Initiate needs different prerequisites, so that Wilders can enter it sooner than Psions without closing it off from Psions. => Remove Knowledge (The Planes) from the requirements. Any suggestions on what to add instead?

The Ectopic Adept has it's capstone ability revolving around the much objected AC nerf. Changing that ability to something else would be doable.

Create one new feat that grants two extra uses of racial PLA's per day each time it's taken. Keep the racial feats that don't do exactly that (like Xeph Celerity).


...And so on. Also, if anyone knows of good class guides for any of the psionic classes (from CPsi or XPH), I'd like to see them.

[puppyavenger]

Right. A lot of what has been mentioned here makes sense now... I had only gone through the first chapter in detail when I posted this topic. Now, let's shift focus: What bits of it are useable and balanced and can be salvaged? Which bits require only minor adjusting to work?

Personally, I think all the base classes are fine, although the Ardent and the Divine Mind are pretty similar in concept and really should have been rolled into one class (preferably with the Ardent's fluff and some of the Divine Mind's mechanics mixed in... A psionic philosopher sounds much cooler than a psionic cleric, to me anyway). Out of the PrCs, the Ebon Saint isn't bad for that psionic assassin niche role. Really just an alternate progression for Lurks, or the occasional Psychic Rogue.

The Anarchic Initiate needs different prerequisites, so that Wilders can enter it sooner than Psions without closing it off from Psions. => Remove Knowledge (The Planes) from the requirements. Any suggestions on what to add instead?

The Ectopic Adept has it's capstone ability revolving around the much objected AC nerf. Changing that ability to something else would be doable.

Create one new feat that grants two extra uses of racial PLA's per day each time it's taken. Keep the racial feats that don't do exactly that (like Xeph Celerity).


...And so on. Also, if anyone knows of good class guides for any of the psionic classes (from CPsi or XPH), I'd like to see them.

also remove stygian powers.

[Rachel Lorelei]

For the record, the Divine Mine is horribly weak, right down there with the Soulknife.

[Draz74]

For the record, the Divine Mine is horribly weak, right down there with the Soulknife.

Don't have Complete Psionic myself, but this isn't the impression I've gotten from people on this Forum (people who usually know what they're talking about in terms of balance, such as Fax). I've heard them compared more to the power level of, oh, a Paladin or so.

[martyboy74]

Somehow I don't think "because it's Psionics infecting the hitherto pure and unsullied Complete books, we must burn out the infestation" is the reason the WOTC Psionics forums seemed to dislike the book so much.

The sentiment there seems to be that they waited a long time for a follow-up to the XPH and CP didn't come close to living up. The violation of psionics' distinct flavor counted for a lot of that, I think.

I didn't mean that psionics should n't be in the complete series; XPH was the first 3.5 book I bought. I meant that CPsi had nowhere near the needed quality to belong in the complete series.

[martyboy74]

Somehow I don't think "because it's Psionics infecting the hitherto pure and unsullied Complete books, we must burn out the infestation" is the reason the WOTC Psionics forums seemed to dislike the book so much.

The sentiment there seems to be that they waited a long time for a follow-up to the XPH and CP didn't come close to living up. The violation of psionics' distinct flavor counted for a lot of that, I think.

I didn't mean that psionics shouldn't be in the complete series; XPH was the first 3.5 book I bought. I meant that CPsi had nowhere near the needed quality to belong in the complete series.

[Hague]

Hrm... How about this:


A manifester can have any number of active astral constructs with power point costs totalling no greater than her manifester level. For example: A 15th level Shaper could create and maintain fifteen Level 1 constructs, five level 2 constructs, three level 3 constructs, two level 4 constructs and one level 1 construct, or one level 5 construct, one level 3 construct, and one level 1 construct, and so on. Power point costs from metapsionic feats don't add to this total. If any of these consructs is dismissed or destroyed, it frees up these limits and allows the manifester to create another astral construct. The Ectopic Adept's Double Creation class feature allows the adept to double this limit to his/her manifester level x 2.

I believe this will grant a bit more flexibility under these normal rules. A manifester will still be limited by how quickly he can manifest the powers to summon so many constructs. It might be likely impossible for a ML 20 level 5 Ectopic Adept to create 40 constructs in 20 rounds (but I'm sure someone will try)

Also, Ectopic forms are considered to have their table choices already selected for them unlike a normal construct does. Despite this, when created, an ectopic form astral construct can benefit from the Boost Construct feat and gain additional abilities of the creator's choosing. Given the wording of the Boost Construct feat, this allows Ectopic Form constructs access to extra abilities sooner than they would be available normally. Normal stacking rules apply. Improved movement modes do not stack, use the highest available speed for redundant movement types.

Edit: Looking at how ectopic forms work, you can instead allow ectopic forms to benefit from Boost Construct in this manner: Level 1-3 ectopic forms gain access one benefit from Astral Construct Menu A. Levels 4-6 gain a benefit from Menus A or B. Constructs with levels 7-9 gain a benefit chosen from menus A, B, or C

[Asbestos]

A simpler theory is that since illithids are from the future, people with the Illithid Heritage feats are their ancestors.

So they are all effectively Illithid Progenitor feats.

[Lycanthromancer]

Hrm... How about this:

I believe this will grant a bit more flexibility under these normal rules. A manifester will still be limited by how quickly he can manifest the powers to summon so many constructs. It might be likely impossible for a ML 20 level 5 Ectopic Adept to create 40 constructs in 20 rounds (but I'm sure someone will try)Why should the psionic version of summoning be nerfed in any capacity? It's already well-balanced in that the power has a long manifesting time (which is very easily disrupted), and doesn't have the broken abilities that Vancian summoning/calling have available to them. (I mean, look at that! A wizard that heals better than a cleric by summoning a celestial unicorn!)

Astral constructs are fine the way they are. It seems that they made that stupid nerf just to showcase the Ectopic Form feats and the PrC to go with them (all of which are terribad personificated).


Also, Ectopic forms are considered to have their table choices already selected for them unlike a normal construct does. Despite this, when created, an ectopic form astral construct can benefit from the Boost Construct feat and gain additional abilities of the creator's choosing. Given the wording of the Boost Construct feat, this allows Ectopic Form constructs access to extra abilities sooner than they would be available normally. Normal stacking rules apply. Improved movement modes do not stack, use the highest available speed for redundant movement types.

Edit: Looking at how ectopic forms work, you can instead allow ectopic forms to benefit from Boost Construct in this manner: Level 1-3 ectopic forms gain access one benefit from Astral Construct Menu A. Levels 4-6 gain a benefit from Menus A or B. Constructs with levels 7-9 gain a benefit chosen from menus A, B, or CThey should have just had one single Ectopic Form feat that added available menu abilities to the list you can choose from, and then added the 3.5 constructor PrC, which is better than the ectopic adept in every conceivable way.

[Serenity]

I actually dont mind the Divine Mind. I don't think of it as the Gods granting him Psionics, so much as, he is a Psionic individual who is deeply devout, and therefore his powers develop in ways to reflect the tenets of his faith.

[Hague]

To make the Anarchic Initiates more accessible to wilders change the requirements to this: Chaotic alignment, 8 ranks Knowledge (psionics), 2 ranks Knowledge (the Planes) and either Wild Surge class feature or the Body Fuel feat (Requires both Overchannel and Talented feats) This makes the wilder eligible for this PrC as early as 5th level. A psion can access this class at the same level, but they must spend 3 feats on acquiring Body Fuel.

[Lycanthromancer]

A psion can access this class at the same level, but they must spend 3 feats on acquiring Body Fuel.And is a horrible, horrible feat, to boot.

It's not something I'd ever take, for any reason other than possibly getting into that class, and even then I'd never use it. Might as well just burn the feat on Toughness and be done with it.

[abandon hope]

Curses and damnation! I could have really done without finding out about the astral construct nerf. In fact, I'm going to forget about it. My DM need never know, I need never buy the Complete Psion, I can live in my happy wilder world of wild surging Astral Construct repeatedly.

[nekomata2]

1) You can swap out Psychic Strike for bonus feats (I forget if there is a sanctioned alternate out there - but if not, anyone allowing the rogue/fighter alt should allow this)


It's official. (http://http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a)

[erikun]

Yeah, it took me awhile to realize what the "Astral Construct nerf" actually was. I'm happy to ignore it.

While I don't mind Complete Psionic, my first impression of the book was "too thin and too clericy." I've become rather partial to the Ardent with time, though, and the Lurk doesn't look terrible. Erudite might be interesting to try, but I will be staying well away from the Divine Mind.

Overall though, there was too little material and too little utility. Some stuff looks good, some stuff looks terribly weak (charge psychic strike once per day?!), which other stuff just didn't make sense at all. A lot of things can be "fixed" with minor changes, but given the lack of content, I wonder why so many mistakes were made.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

NOTE: Energy stun is a Save or Suck masquerading as an AoE damage spell. If you fail the (Fort or Reflex) you make a (Will). If you fail the Will, you're stunned for a round.2 saves is more of a nerf than you think. A standard caster with a 24 and using a 6th level spell gets a save at DC 23(same investment as you). Figure a +14 Fort, +9 Will(average values for that level), the Psion forces a 1-round stun 71.25% of the time. The caster forces a fail 65% of the time. Not a huge difference, once you take into account the caster's ability to selectively target saves and the fact that the caster is only looking at a single save.

[Zen Master]

This is really funny.

Complete Psionics is easily the very worst crap I've ever read. I'm not even going to go into why - that's fairly trivial.

The funny part is how most people here seem to like it - or only dislike certain parts of it.

[sonofzeal]

This is really funny.

Complete Psionics is easily the very worst crap I've ever read. I'm not even going to go into why - that's fairly trivial.

The funny part is how most people here seem to like it - or only dislike certain parts of it.
Well, it's not as bad as Complete Champion........

[lord_khaine]

Thats because despite everything else thats bad with it, then its still one of the very few sources for additional powers and feats.

personaly i really like Link power for getting some lowlevel buffs up fast.

[Milskidasith]

Wasn't there one new power in CompPsi that scaled 1 DC per PP augmented?

[The Rose Dragon]

Thread necromancy, two years almost to the day!

I think it says something about the book when people are willing to discuss how bad it is even in a thread resurrected after two years of being dead.

[Proven_Paradox]

The whole book just seems rushed. It lacks polish. It's certainly not the only WotC book with that problem, but arcanists, divine casters, skilled characters, and warriors all have at least two official splatbooks out there to make them better. Psionics only has CPsionic; that being bad makes it hurt more than the lack of quality in CChampion. If you don't like CChamp, you can go to CDiv and be just fine. Beyond the XPH, psionic fans have no where else (among official sources) to turn, and that sucks. So CPsion gets more flak than other books with similar problems see.

[Myrmex]

Doesn't that book have the most best psionic feat ever- practiced manifester?

[Boci]

Doesn't that book have the most best psionic feat ever- practiced manifester?

I don't own the book but I can guess what the feat does. The best parts of the book are available for free online.

[DragoonWraith]

Besides, with Practiced Spellcaster it's not hard to houserule a Psionics version.

[Longcat]

To give CPsi some credits, it did bring us the LEGEN... wait for it... DARY Erudite! And it's AWESOME!

[DragoonWraith]

I do hope you're joking?

[Longcat]

No, I'm completely serious. Do note that the Spell-to-Power feat is not part of the printed book, but content from the web enhancement.

[DragoonWraith]

I realize that, but it's so... the weird Vancian/Psionic system is just bleh, I think.

[Prime32]

I don't own the book but I can guess what the feat does. The best parts of the book are available for free online.RAW it also gives you extra power points.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Thread necromancy, two years almost to the day!

I think it says something about the book when people are willing to discuss how bad it is even in a thread resurrected after two years of being dead.

QFT

Also, the Erudite is not LEGEND...ARY AWESOME. The unique powers per day are messed up and it's decent, at best. Nothing I've seen in any roleplaying book is legendary, and precious few things are awesome. Base classes don't tend to fall into that category.

[Optimystik]

The problem with Complete Psionic is that its PrCs are a pile, and PrCs are generally the main judge of a book's worth. For a useful feat, like Practiced Manifester, all you really need are the prereqs - remembering it is easy at that point, because a feat's name generally tells you what it does.

Complete Psionic added only a handful of good powers (though that handful is VERY good - effectively a psionic Celerity line) but for some inexplicable reason, reprinted a ton of powers from XPH in lieu of innovation. Worse, the book explicitly says to get XPH anyway, so there's not much value being added for your gaming dollar.

The one truly good PrC in the book, Soulbow, is available for free online. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2)

Hyperconscious (http://www.montecook.com/mpress_Hyper.html) is the book Complete Psionic should have been. Powerful and flavorful PrCs, great new mechanics (I love the mindscape battle - psionic muscle flexing!) that further differentiate psionics from traditional magic, and powers that WotC should have been printing from day one. (Really, it shouldn't take a 3rd-party publisher to come up with Psionic Sleep.) I largely consider Hyperconscious to be the REAL CP, and the WotC book a web enhancement for it. :smalltongue:

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Please don't resurrect two-year old threads.