Help with Barbarian/warlock build

[Jacco]

Hello folks !!

for my next adventure I would have in mind a character based on the idea of ​​a dark immortal barbarian devoted to his patron for whom he fights and, in the most difficult moments, exploits his anger and the powers granted to him to launch powerful blows or resist the most dangerous damage.

Mechanically I would like to exploit the barbarian's rage and spells without concentrations that help him resist and deliver more powerful blows (spells that should be cast before the fight or immediately after it starts). The spells i thought of : AoA, false life, death ward.

I would start with barbarian 1, then 5 levels of warlock, 2-3 levels barb and the rest of warlock. As for the subclass, zealot for barbarian, which should represent the concept of devotion, and for warlock a would say fiend, undead or undying.

Any advice on how to optimize my concept? :smile:

[Seekergeek]

I played a similar character at the outset of 5e when all that was out there was the phb - I used fiend patron with the blade pact and treated rage as essentially another invocation. Getting extra attack a level late hurt a bit but it was fun and didn’t feel too laggy. Now I’d probably consider celestial as a patron since their first level ability isn’t a spell and could be usable in a rage for you without trouble. Combined with zealot it could be thematic as well. Your stats may be spread a bit thin, but depending on how you generate I still feel like this is a perfectly fun combo and with 5e being what it is, it’s a long way from unplayable.

[Psyren]

You're in luck, Colby from d4 Deep Dive literally just made a video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmiNKz9TXvw) on this combination last week.

The short version is that it uses Loxodon to grapple an enemy with your trunk and keep your hands free for a big 2-hander and Reckless Attack. Combine that with Cloak of Flies for passive damage and Armor of Agathys for retributive damage, both concentration-free, and you end up with a decent amount of added DPR from Warlock. Later you'll pick up Fire Shield as well. Reckless Attack not only boosts your active damage, it allows enemy hits to land more easily, triggering the retributive damage as well. And because neither FS nor AoA need concentration, you can keep them both active while raging.

If you don't want to to do this with Loxodon, you can omit the grapple element, but that does make it harder for enemies to focus on you and trigger your reflective damage. Alternatively, you can use a 1H weapon instead or even go unarmed, but you'll do much less damage without GWM.

[Jacco]

I played a similar character at the outset of 5e when all that was out there was the phb - I used fiend patron with the blade pact and treated rage as essentially another invocation. Getting extra attack a level late hurt a bit but it was fun and didn’t feel too laggy. Now I’d probably consider celestial as a patron since their first level ability isn’t a spell and could be usable in a rage for you without trouble. Combined with zealot it could be thematic as well. Your stats may be spread a bit thin, but depending on how you generate I still feel like this is a perfectly fun combo and with 5e being what it is, it’s a long way from unplayable.

Any suggestions about :


best race to stay true to the concept but not lose in terms of optimization
more options (invocations, spells, class features etc..) to gain temporary HP so i can maximize the effect of rage
feats must have

[Dr.Samurai]

Hello folks !!

for my next adventure I would have in mind a character based on the idea of ​​a dark immortal barbarian devoted to his patron for whom he fights and, in the most difficult moments, exploits his anger and the powers granted to him to launch powerful blows or resist the most dangerous damage.

Mechanically I would like to exploit the barbarian's rage and spells without concentrations that help him resist and deliver more powerful blows (spells that should be cast before the fight or immediately after it starts). The spells i thought of : AoA, false life, death ward.

I would start with barbarian 1, then 5 levels of warlock, 2-3 levels barb and the rest of warlock. As for the subclass, zealot for barbarian, which should represent the concept of devotion, and for warlock a would say fiend, undead or undying.

Any advice on how to optimize my concept? :smile:
Are you planning on going Pact of the Blade?

[Jacco]

You're in luck, Colnby from d4 Deep Dive literally just made a video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmiNKz9TXvw) on this combination last week.

The short version is that it uses Loxodon to grapple an enemy with your trunk and keep your hands free for a big 2-hander and Reckless Attack. Combine that with Cloak of Flies for passive damage and Armor of Agathys for retributive damage, both concentration-free, and you end up with a decent amount of added DPR from Warlock. Later you'll pick up Fire Shield as well. Reckless Attack not only boosts your active damage, it allows enemy hits to land more easily, triggering the retributive damage as well. And because neither FS nor AoA need concentration, you can keep them both active while raging.

sadly i can't use Loxodon. I like the genie subclass but I don't see what advantages it can give me compared to others like undead or undying.



Are you planning on going Pact of the Blade?

yes i am. I don't plan to take more then 4 level on barb so i need Thirsting Blade. But if you think that more levels on barb could be needed for a better character i'm all ears :smallsmile:

[Hiro Quester]

I like the genie subclass but I don't see what advantages it can give me compared to others like undead or undying.


I came here to mention that D4 deep dive video too. The reason for Genie is that only a Efreet patron gets you access to Fire Shield.

personally, I’m not sure Cloak of Flies is a great use of an invocation, when your charisma bonus won’t be that high. Colby is after great passive damage. Being able to burn a spell slot for Eldritch Smite, when you need a big burst of damage might be a good option to have, instead. Pick your favorites.

[OptimizedAC]

First off, great choice. I've played a character doing basically what you're intending to, and it's some off the most fun I've gotten out of a build.

There's very little that takes away from the feel of being a barbarian recklessly swinging one's weapon around, but you become adaptable wildly beyond a regular barbarian. In combat, you get more tools than a hammer for handling all those nails. On long encounter days, you get much more resources from your short rests. For short days, you get additional burst by burning both classes' features. Outside combat, spells let your contribute where a strength-check does nothing. You have the charisma to contribute in social situations, although not as a dedicated party face. Since you're primarily swinging your weapon, you can arguably even be a bit more indulgent in the spells you pick.

It's great fun.

At least from level 7 onwards, which is the level I played the character at.

Before then, you'll feel the envy of multiclassers towards monoclassers. There's three levels where you'll wish you had Reckless Attack. I doubt you'll feel fully like a barbarian without it. 1 barb/ 5 warlock is probably the better choice, though, cause one level really wishing you had extra attack is much better than two such levels.

Strength is your main stat. You still want high consitution, but can tolerate it being slightly lower than a standard barbarian due to TempHP. Dex as a regular barbarian. Charisma you want enough of to multiclass, but not more at the cost of the above stats. 14 is plenty, as you hould choose warlock features that work independently of a high charisma-bonus.
Grab skill proficiency in athletics and one of the face skills (i.e., intimidation), and probably stealth.
Dumping Wisdom is clearly a bad idea, and arguably perfect flavour for a brutal barbarian who has spent ages of man shedding blood under their master's will.

Multiclassing
Zealot sounds like a perfect fit for your concept. I don't think it makes too much of a difference from the alternatives mechanically - and by the time you actually have to commit, you'll have had plenty of time to get a feel for the character, so might as well keep that as your assumed subclass.

The warlock subclass is more urgent for you to decide on. Undying is a thing. That exists. It has been published as official content. Lets leave it at that. Undead is better designed, more satisfying to play, and seems like it will also be more satisfying to the concept you're approaching.

Fiend has better mechanical harmony with barbarian, however. Both get tempHP, which is great synergy with Rage. However, Undead clogs further your already contested use of bonus action as a presumably raging great weapon master barbarian. Form of Dread won't be particularly dread-inspiring with your charisma, while Dark one's blessing scales with level in addition to weak cha.

If you consider the warlock spell list, you're rather dependent on adding some strong spells with the subclass. Armor of Agathys has synergy with Rage, but anti-synergy with Undead and Fiend. The Tasha summoning spells are cool (and only partially affected by your charisma), but are much better with a 4th level spell slot than 3rd. Hypnotic pattern is amazing, but not when every round offers the risk of your lower charisma prematurely ending the spell. Hex is somewhat nice, until the first combat where you should be raging instead.

The main reason I played a fiend warlock, therefore, is that Fiend warlocks get fireball. Which, yes, is a spell with a save. But also specifically a save for half damage. So the difference between your charisma and a dedicated charisma-caster matter half as much when you cast fireball. Opening the combat with a fireball and then raging is a powerful tool in one's arsenal, and lets you handle crowds better than any other barbarian at the point you get it.

How many levels you will invest in warlock is therefore an important decision, especially when it comes to subclass-decisions. I agree with five. After that, there's diminishing return on upgrading your spell-slots, as the power-jump is vast from 2nd to 3rd level spells, but less so afterwards. If you choose the right spells. If you choose fireball.

(If you were to go up to 7th level, Undead Warlocks get access to Death Ward and Greater Invisibility, which are both great options that justifies the investment. And note that fire genies also bestow fireball-casting, while having neat features for this build.)

Spell-selection and invocations

Your invocations are rather free. Obviously you need pact of the blade and Thirsting blade. Anything else is optional. Eldritch smite is easy burst while raging, but eats into alternative (and arguably better) uses of your spell-slots. Alternatively, Tomb of Levistus lets you tank insane amounts of damage in a round when combined with rage, and should really help you feel immortal if it becomes worth using. Your lower-level invocation can basically be anything that doesn't interact with eldritch blast - feel free to annoy your party with Darkness and Devil's sight.

You should choose spells for:
Out of combat utility
Opening round of combat before raging
Concentration spells for when you don't have to be raging

While concentration won't jive with rage, you'll sadly be unable to rage all the time. You'll only be able to rage twice for a long while, and only thrice for a further while. It's worth having some concentration-spells on hand for when you'd rather use just a short-rest resource than a long-rest one.

If you were to go with something like Genie, it's worth considering AoA or False Life (by invocation). However, if you go undead or fiend, only Tomb of Levistus offers enough TempHP to justify not stacking with your subclass-feature, imo.

[Psyren]

Fiendlock does get Fire Shield too; I think he picked Efreetlock for that + Genie's Wrath.

[RogueJK]

Sounds like you definitely want Undead Warlock.

Form of Dread gets you a great Fear effect that triggers on your attacks, as well as eventually the ability to turn your damage into necrotic and add another damage dice each turn. Neither of which interfere with Rage, other than that it's also a Bonus Action to activate. And its daily uses scale off Proficiency Bonus, not Warlock level.

You also get access to Death Ward, which normally isn't a Warlock spell, as well as a subclass ability at Level 10 that works similar to Death Ward for extra safety net in tough fights. Combine with the Half Orc race for a third similar ability, and potentially Tomelock's Gift of the Ever-Living Ones invocation, and you're nearly immortal, having to drop to 0 HP a whopping five times being you ever actually go down.


You could do it one of two ways:

Barbarian 1 -> Undead Bladelock 6 or 7 -> Zealot Barbarian 3 or 4 -> Warlock X

or

Barbarian 1 -> Undead Warlock 1 -> Zealot Barbarian 5 or 6 -> Warlock X


Either way, you're getting Extra Attack at Character Level 6. The former gets your Undead abilities online sooner and has more Warlock spellcasting options, at the cost of fewer Rages per day. The latter gets your Barbarian subclass abilities online sooner and have more Rages per day, plus isn't locked into Blade Pact, at the cost of your Warlock abilities and spellcasting being delayed.

Especially with the first option, I'd recommend doing a Half Orc with a Greataxe. With Savage Attacks and Grave Touched, you can be rolling 5d12+STR+Rage (plus possibly 2x Eldritch Smite) on a crit starting at Level 7. Plus their aforementioned racial Relentless Endurance ability.

Warlocks have a few handy non-Concentration buff spells, like Armor of Agathys, Mirror Image, and Death Ward (from Undead subclass). But Bladelocks specifically can also turn their spell slots into extra damage via Eldritch Smite, which doesn't interfere with Rage.


The big downside to this build is that it's rather MAD. You want a good STR, a decent DEX, CHA, and CON, and ideally a non-negative WIS. That's a tall order. With point buy, you're looking at something like this at best:
STR 15+1
DEX 13+1
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 9
CHA 13+1

[OracularPoet]

Would come on late, but: Berserker 3 + Celestial 9 could handle own exhaustion with Greater Restoration.

[Jacco]

First off, great choice. I've played a character doing basically what you're intending to, and it's some off the most fun I've gotten out of a build.

There's very little that takes away from the feel of being a barbarian recklessly swinging one's weapon around, but you become adaptable wildly beyond a regular barbarian. In combat, you get more tools than a hammer for handling all those nails. On long encounter days, you get much more resources from your short rests. For short days, you get additional burst by burning both classes' features. Outside combat, spells let your contribute where a strength-check does nothing. You have the charisma to contribute in social situations, although not as a dedicated party face. Since you're primarily swinging your weapon, you can arguably even be a bit more indulgent in the spells you pick.

It's great fun.

At least from level 7 onwards, which is the level I played the character at.

Before then, you'll feel the envy of multiclassers towards monoclassers. There's three levels where you'll wish you had Reckless Attack. I doubt you'll feel fully like a barbarian without it. 1 barb/ 5 warlock is probably the better choice, though, cause one level really wishing you had extra attack is much better than two such levels.

Strength is your main stat. You still want high consitution, but can tolerate it being slightly lower than a standard barbarian due to TempHP. Dex as a regular barbarian. Charisma you want enough of to multiclass, but not more at the cost of the above stats. 14 is plenty, as you hould choose warlock features that work independently of a high charisma-bonus.
Grab skill proficiency in athletics and one of the face skills (i.e., intimidation), and probably stealth.
Dumping Wisdom is clearly a bad idea, and arguably perfect flavour for a brutal barbarian who has spent ages of man shedding blood under their master's will.

Multiclassing
Zealot sounds like a perfect fit for your concept. I don't think it makes too much of a difference from the alternatives mechanically - and by the time you actually have to commit, you'll have had plenty of time to get a feel for the character, so might as well keep that as your assumed subclass.

The warlock subclass is more urgent for you to decide on. Undying is a thing. That exists. It has been published as official content. Lets leave it at that. Undead is better designed, more satisfying to play, and seems like it will also be more satisfying to the concept you're approaching.

Fiend has better mechanical harmony with barbarian, however. Both get tempHP, which is great synergy with Rage. However, Undead clogs further your already contested use of bonus action as a presumably raging great weapon master barbarian. Form of Dread won't be particularly dread-inspiring with your charisma, while Dark one's blessing scales with level in addition to weak cha.

If you consider the warlock spell list, you're rather dependent on adding some strong spells with the subclass. Armor of Agathys has synergy with Rage, but anti-synergy with Undead and Fiend. The Tasha summoning spells are cool (and only partially affected by your charisma), but are much better with a 4th level spell slot than 3rd. Hypnotic pattern is amazing, but not when every round offers the risk of your lower charisma prematurely ending the spell. Hex is somewhat nice, until the first combat where you should be raging instead.

The main reason I played a fiend warlock, therefore, is that Fiend warlocks get fireball. Which, yes, is a spell with a save. But also specifically a save for half damage. So the difference between your charisma and a dedicated charisma-caster matter half as much when you cast fireball. Opening the combat with a fireball and then raging is a powerful tool in one's arsenal, and lets you handle crowds better than any other barbarian at the point you get it.

How many levels you will invest in warlock is therefore an important decision, especially when it comes to subclass-decisions. I agree with five. After that, there's diminishing return on upgrading your spell-slots, as the power-jump is vast from 2nd to 3rd level spells, but less so afterwards. If you choose the right spells. If you choose fireball.

(If you were to go up to 7th level, Undead Warlocks get access to Death Ward and Greater Invisibility, which are both great options that justifies the investment. And note that fire genies also bestow fireball-casting, while having neat features for this build.)

Spell-selection and invocations

Your invocations are rather free. Obviously you need pact of the blade and Thirsting blade. Anything else is optional. Eldritch smite is easy burst while raging, but eats into alternative (and arguably better) uses of your spell-slots. Alternatively, Tomb of Levistus lets you tank insane amounts of damage in a round when combined with rage, and should really help you feel immortal if it becomes worth using. Your lower-level invocation can basically be anything that doesn't interact with eldritch blast - feel free to annoy your party with Darkness and Devil's sight.

You should choose spells for:
Out of combat utility
Opening round of combat before raging
Concentration spells for when you don't have to be raging

While concentration won't jive with rage, you'll sadly be unable to rage all the time. You'll only be able to rage twice for a long while, and only thrice for a further while. It's worth having some concentration-spells on hand for when you'd rather use just a short-rest resource than a long-rest one.

If you were to go with something like Genie, it's worth considering AoA or False Life (by invocation). However, if you go undead or fiend, only Tomb of Levistus offers enough TempHP to justify not stacking with your subclass-feature, imo.

Many thanks for the in-depth explanation. I am inclined to choose Undead as a sub class. Instead which feats should i take? first PAM then GWM? Any other feats that i must take?

[OptimizedAC]

It depends. Your stat array is complicated, due to how MAD you are.Your level progression complicates things further:

If you're going Undead, I would recommend going up to 4th level spells. You get great spells, as mentioned, and the subclass ability at lvl 6 is neat. With 7 levels in warlock, you might as well grab the feat at lvl 8. So up to level 12 should look something like this:
1 barb/5 warlock/1 barb/3 warlock/2 barb
(You could even delay the second barbarian level, as the warlock benefits are great, but those levels would play very differently then.)

That affects feat selection - the above progression doesn't get you a second feat until level 10. This feat should be probably be GWM - while a regular barbarian might want it at level 4, they have Reckless Attack then while you don't.
As for the level 5 feat:
Polearm master is good, but note that you'll get slightly less out of it than other martials: Fear prevents triggering its opportunity attack, and in intense battles you'll spend your first two bonus actions setting up Rage of Dread. It's not the only viable feat for level 5.
ASI: You're MAD, and there's plenty of stats you'd benefit from increasing.
Half-feats: You might only want to increment your strength. Skill expert lets you excell at grappling along with your already wide capabilities. Crusher has interesting synergy with Form of Dread; semi-immbolizing them with fear and then pushing them somewhere they can't attack from - or just use a weapon with reach. Slasher combined with Spirit Shroud could seriously impair enemy movement i guess, and combined with Polearm Master could occasionally cut their movement short just before getting in reach of you.
Inspiring leader: Great improvement to your (party's) immortality. Sets the rythm for how your class-abilities are triggered: Rage the first combat after a short rest, then Form of Dread only after expending your tempHP.

A bit more out there:
Mounted combatant: You get Phantom Steed as a warlock spell. This lets you keep that steed around for longer while giving you advantage without reckless attack.
War caster: If you already took polearm master, you can cast eldritch blast. Throw Repelling Blast on there, and you get marginal pay-off for a lot of investment.

Naturally, your chosen race will affect what feats makes the most sense:
Human gets you two feats 6 levels earlier. That opens things up.
You're very MAD, so if Loxodon doesn't work, Tortle gives a similar opportunity to dump dex.

There are several cool races published recently with bonus actions/proficiency times per day. If you drop Polearm master and first get GWM at level 10, you can easily fit bonus actions in after the first round for most of the game. At high tiers of play, you'll struggle more to find good use of all those bonus actions.
Orc, MPMM version - resist dangerous damage and be where you need to be to launch dangerous blows.
Harengon - also bonus action mobility, bonus to initiative, perception and dexterity.
Eladrin/Astral Elf/Shadar-kai - Also bonus action mobility, also bonus to perception. Along with diverse benefits
Earth Genasi, MPMM - resist damage also when not raging, get access to one of the most overpowered spells in the game and cast it once for free.
Hobgoblin - being an undead barbarian is no reason to not help your party. 10 ft extra movement is often all you need, advantage against charmed compensates for your low Wis, as does +3 to a failed save.

Do you know what your party composition is likely to be? How your DM tends to run adventure days? With only 2 rages per day, you'll typically either Rage or Form of Dread, and only do both for intense encounters. If the game leans towards fewer encounters per day at higher intensity, other uses of bonus actions will have less room to make an impact. Presumably there will be some short-rests though, if not you're entitled as a Warlock to raise the issue.
What level are you starting, and how long is the campaign likely to last?
How are stats generated? RogueJK suggests a good baseline for standard array. You could honestly go Str 15+2, Dex&Con 14, with Cha at only 12+1 then boost the Str with a half-feat. Be less scary, but hit harder while being more versatile. Or, my hottest take here, go a bit lower on the Con - that doesn't jive with your vision, though.

[OptimizedAC]

I just realized - Thirsting Blade doesn't give you extra grapples/tripping/anything besides attacking with your pact weapon. That makes skill expert (athletics) much less appealing.


Many thanks for the in-depth explanation. I am inclined to choose Undead as a sub class. Instead which feats should i take? first PAM then GWM? Any other feats that i must take?Also, with the Undead, you should read my recommendation against AoA or False Life in a milder light. You have enough control over when to activate the TempHP, unlike Fiend, that it might be well worth starting as a warlock with one of those options. They can always be replaced as new options comes along, and at level 1 there aren't much better options. Other first level spells to consider are:

Protection from G&E
Hex
Expeditious retreat
Comprehend languages
(Unseen Servant)

All of those you'll level out of, hex scaling the best. At Warlock 8, you'd know 9 spells, enough to cover your bases and explore whichever options you want. Here's some spells to consider. Bolded are strong considerations to keep as you level up:

2nd level:
Darkness
Invisibility
Mirror image
Misty step
Spider climb
Shadow blade (would honestly be interesting until you get GWM, especially upcast, if it actually worked with Thirsting Blade)

3rd level:
Dispell magic/counterspell - you're just as good against lower-level magic. This includes counterspelling the opponents counterspell. But hopefully that doesn't come up often, and there's some dedicated spellcaster to take care of antimagic otherwise.
Fly
Hunger of Hadar
Major Image
(Spirit shroud)
Phantom steed
Speak with Dead
Summon undead(/fey/aberration)
Tongues

4th level:
Dimension door
Hallucinatory terrain
Death Ward
Greater Invisibility / Shadow of Moil
(Summon greater/lesser demon)

[Jacco]

I just realized - Thirsting Blade doesn't give you extra grapples/tripping/anything besides attacking with your pact weapon. That makes skill expert (athletics) much less appealing.

Also, with the Undead, you should read my recommendation against AoA or False Life in a milder light. You have enough control over when to activate the TempHP, unlike Fiend, that it might be well worth starting as a warlock with one of those options. They can always be replaced as new options comes along, and at level 1 there aren't much better options. Other first level spells to consider are:

Protection from G&E
Hex
Expeditious retreat
Comprehend languages
(Unseen Servant)

All of those you'll level out of, hex scaling the best. At Warlock 8, you'd know 9 spells, enough to cover your bases and explore whichever options you want. Here's some spells to consider. Bolded are strong considerations to keep as you level up:

2nd level:
Darkness
Invisibility
Mirror image
Misty step
Spider climb
Shadow blade (would honestly be interesting until you get GWM, especially upcast, if it actually worked with Thirsting Blade)

3rd level:
Dispell magic/counterspell - you're just as good against lower-level magic. This includes counterspelling the opponents counterspell. But hopefully that doesn't come up often, and there's some dedicated spellcaster to take care of antimagic otherwise.
Fly
Hunger of Hadar
Major Image
(Spirit shroud)
Phantom steed
Speak with Dead
Summon undead(/fey/aberration)
Tongues

4th level:
Dimension door
Hallucinatory terrain
Death Ward
Greater Invisibility / Shadow of Moil
(Summon greater/lesser demon)

We'll be rolling for stat and start from lv 5 to lv 14-15. I have no idea of what the other party members will play. Sure enough will be a paladin and a mage. One last thing, we've been allowed to start with a single non common magic item. I'm thinking to pick Gauntlets of Ogre power in case a i threw bad rolls..otherwise which magic item should i pick?

[OptimizedAC]

We'll be rolling for stat and start from lv 5 to lv 14-15. I have no idea of what the other party members will play. Sure enough will be a paladin and a mage. One last thing, we've been allowed to start with a single non common magic item. I'm thinking to pick Gauntlets of Ogre power in case a i threw bad rolls..otherwise which magic item should i pick?
Make sure you can choose items after rolling for stats? While it's potentially excellent powerwise, it seems rather unsatisfying if you lock yourself into it unnecessarily.

Slippers of spider climbing, Periapt of wound closure and Sword of vengeance all work towards your concept in different ways, listed in decending order of power. Rod of Pact Keeper is also good - primarily as a Pearl of power, which is technically strictly better for you in rarely relevant ways.

Cloak of Elvenkind, Winged boots or even Wand of Web are always great.

Mundane item wise, consider that without GWM yet, you're less locked in on a two-handed weapon at the start. Pact of the Blade doesn't ruin two-weapon fighting like it does everything else, and sword and board also works. You want some thrown weapons on hand - Rage does nothing for them, but Form of Dread does. Pact Weapon isn't kind to thrown weapons, so close the distance whenever you can nonetheless.

The level range seems excellent! You'll have one level really missing extra attack, and presumably two somewhat missing Reckless Attack, but that just means you'll earn all that later fun with the build. Best of luck with the campaign!