How would you rule this

[Skrum]

Complete hypothetical -

The cleric stands completely, utterly, stock-still. They don't even breath; they are effectively paralyzed. The paladin swings at the cleric's face as hard as they can, channeling the full power of divine feelz into the swing. It's a crushing blow, an automatic critical hit, and would no doubt drop the cleric if the rune knight didn't bounce that ill-intent straight at Strahd using their Cloud Rune.

So, what do you say: can a character effectively paralyze themselves by "letting" someone hit them.

[OldTrees1]

I don't know if I would allow someone to grant an auto crit against themselves. I would allow it to be an auto hit regardless of die roll.
However it is moot since Cloud Rune would redirect the attack and make it use the same ROLL. Even if I rule you could allow an auto crit vs yourself, it does not change the die roll.
So the real question is whether I would allow Adv vs Target 1 to transfer the higher die roll when the Cloud Rune redirects.
Yes, I would allow the Cloud Rune to be used after knowing the roll and thus it would use the higher roll if the original attack had advantage.


Conclusion: You can have advantage and know the total roll before redirecting, but you won't get an automatic critical.

Expected reaction to that ruling: The party uses it as one attack in the opening rounds (at the cost of the rune but nothing else), but they don't try to stage a OTK.

[Skrum]

I don't know if I would allow someone to grant an auto crit against themselves. I would allow it to be an auto hit regardless of die roll.
However it is moot since Cloud Rune would redirect the attack and make it use the same ROLL. Even if I rule you could allow an auto crit vs yourself, it does not change the die roll.
So the real question is whether I would allow Adv vs Target 1 to transfer the higher die roll when the Cloud Rune redirects.
Yes, I would allow the Cloud Rune to be used after knowing the roll and thus it would use the higher roll if the original attack had advantage.


Conclusion: You can have advantage and know the total roll before redirecting, but you won't get an automatic critical.

Expected reaction to that ruling: The party uses it as one attack in the opening rounds (at the cost of the rune but nothing else), but they don't try to stage a OTK.

Good point; the paralyzed condition makes the attack an auto-crit, but the attack roll is not an actual crit (and thus an auto-hit). The paladin could biff their roll and then a 13 to hit (for example) would be bounced by Cloud Rune.

But, you'd rule against the real question: can a character cause an attack against them to be an automatic crit, a la being paralyzed. You say no.

Edit: so, to pull this off, the wizard needs to cast Hold Person on the cleric, and then the wizard can drop concentration once the attack is over. That's 100% legit lol.

[Anymage]

If the player wants to self-inflict the equivalent of paralyzed or unconscious on themselves, I see no reason to not let them.

In addition to what OldTrees1 said, though, it helps to remember that Cloud Rune doesn't redirect damage and instead redirects an attack roll. If Strahd were also paralyzed and within 5' of the paladin, hits would autocrit. If Strahd were paralyzed and next to the paladin while the cleric was still full able, the redirected attack would still autocrit. (Although in this case since the original attack wouldn't have advantage there'd be more risk of missing.) If Strahd is still fully functional and/or not within 5' of the paladin, though, it's just a normal redirected attack aside from maybe gaining advantage.

[Skrum]

In addition to what OldTrees1 said, though, it helps to remember that Cloud Rune doesn't redirect damage and instead redirects an attack roll. If Strahd were also paralyzed and within 5' of the paladin, hits would autocrit. If Strahd were paralyzed and next to the paladin while the cleric was still full able, the redirected attack would still autocrit. (Although in this case since the original attack wouldn't have advantage there'd be more risk of missing.) If Strahd is still fully functional and/or not within 5' of the paladin, though, it's just a normal redirected attack aside from maybe gaining advantage.

Ooooo

Ok that's absolutely true. My plan is ruined lol

[Unoriginal]

Good point; the paralyzed condition makes the attack an auto-crit, but the attack roll is not an actual crit (and thus an auto-hit). The paladin could biff their roll and then a 13 to hit (for example) would be bounced by Cloud Rune.

But, you'd rule against the real question: can a character cause an attack against them to be an automatic crit, a la being paralyzed. You say no.

Edit: so, to pull this off, the wizard needs to cast Hold Person on the cleric, and then the wizard can drop concentration once the attack is over. That's 100% legit lol.

The Wizard would need to beat the Cleric's saving throw still.

[Witty Username]

Wisdom save (probably DC 15, since that sounds hard) for the cleric if they aren't actually paralyzed.

If they fail, they can't stop from flinching reflexively taking a regular attack.

Past that, I would give the crit, it sounds cheesy but I feel that does have some risk and resources to pull off right.

[Amnestic]

Even if I wanted to approve of this sort of cheese (and I don't, it feels extremely 'gamey' and not at all how adventurers would act in-universe), I'd at least make it so that the person paralyzing themself had to choose to do so at the start of their turn, in line with the rules for Averting your Eyes from things like medusas.

[sithlordnergal]

Even if I wanted to approve of this sort of cheese (and I don't, it feels extremely 'gamey' and not at all how adventurers would act in-universe), I'd at least make it so that the person paralyzing themself had to choose to do so at the start of their turn, in line with the rules for Averting your Eyes from things like medusas.

To be fair, it is a game...so gamey cheese is normal and to be expected. X3

Though this cheese fails due to rule interactions. You'd need to bounce just the damage.

[Phhase]

Tbh I'd let it work. It's got strong voodoo doll energy. Stab yourself, the enemy is hurt. Limited use, but effective.

[Mindflayer_Inc]

Complete hypothetical -

The cleric stands completely, utterly, stock-still. They don't even breath; they are effectively paralyzed. The paladin swings at the cleric's face as hard as they can, channeling the full power of divine feelz into the swing. It's a crushing blow, an automatic critical hit, and would no doubt drop the cleric if the rune knight didn't bounce that ill-intent straight at Strahd using their Cloud Rune.

So, what do you say: can a character effectively paralyze themselves by "letting" someone hit them.

I think the only way I would have a character grant an auto-crit, or even an auto-hit, would be to have the one wanting to be hit roll a Wisdom or Charisma saving throw. If they pass, they allow themselves to be hit, their resolve outpowered the natural instinct to flee from damage. But they would also need to ready to be hit as D&D combat isn't static, characters and creatures are always moving.

Something like...

"When my ally goes to attack me, I stand perfectly still so they can hit me" and they use the Ready an Action, Action. When the reaction (staying perfectly still) happens, the character would need to roll a Wisdom or Charisma saving throw (depending on how you see mental fortitude since they overlap).

DC 5: A wizard type is doing a melee attack against the character readying an action to be hit.

DC 10: A fighting type is doing the melee attack against the character readying an action to be hit.

DC 15: A spellcaster is casting a spell with an attack roll OR a fighting type is doing a special melee attack (think using smite, sneak attack, etc).

[Anymage]

Adventurers perform acts that would make your average person balk all the time. Fireballing your own feet in order to clear out a concentration of enemies is not unknown. If an adventurer had reason to believe that their taking severe or even fatal damage would have some benefit, I see no reason not to let them do it.

Abilities that let you transfer an attack's damage to an enemy would create weird perverse incentives here, but cloud rune doesn't work this way and I can't think of any other abilities that do so the point is moot.

[Mindflayer_Inc]

Adventurers perform acts that would make your average person balk all the time. Fireballing your own feet in order to clear out a concentration of enemies is not unknown. If an adventurer had reason to believe that their taking severe or even fatal damage would have some benefit, I see no reason not to let them do it.

Abilities that let you transfer an attack's damage to an enemy would create weird perverse incentives here, but cloud rune doesn't work this way and I can't think of any other abilities that do so the point is moot.

Using this thought, you really don't ever need to roll anything ever as you can just say "adventurers do it all the time". There are no general rules that say you can automatically fail a saving throw, there are specific ones within spells, but no general rules (devs even said so)... So your argument that "Adventurers perform acts that would make your average person balk all the time" doesn't work since the rules clearly go against this idea.

Yeah adventurers are awesome, but like, they still have rules to work by and unless you're the DM, you can't just hand waive them away. (Edit: And even if you are the GM, you really shouldn't just hand waive them away as it breaks the internal consistency of the game and can lead to players losing trust in the GM's ability to know the rules of the game. If you're hand waiving too much, especially on things that aren't "cool" it can lead to a bad time).

I'm all for the rule of cool, but this isn't that. Auto-hits and Auto-Crits just aren't supported by the game itself in a general.

[tokek]

As mentioned by others this is not how Cloud Rune works

But if this was attempted how I would rule it as a DM is that the Cleric is giving the Help action to the Paladin on their attack. So advantage on the attack and the resulting dice roll can be resolved against Strahd with the Cloud Rune. Any additional effects of the attack itself - such as smite - also transfer as per the Cloud Rune rule.

You know what's really weird. You need to see the target of the initial attack but not the target you transfer it to. Being invisible is no defence against the Cloud Rune - or at least not as I read it. Weird but effective as Strahd can definitely go invisible.

I have used this trick once to finess advantage when I should have had disadvantage on an attack. The voluntary target simply went prone. I have also used it to hit a flying target that otherwise I could not reach.

Cloud Rune is amazing for anyone who had not already realised that.