Help! My Players Want To Meet Primus...

[Sparky McDibben]

First up, if you're playing in my "Augustus Giovanni Must Die" campaign, GO AWAY.

No really. Kick rocks.

Alright, so the city in my current sandbox urban campaign is menaced by crazy sewer people empowered by a rift to the Far Realms located deep under the sewers. My PCs want to close this rift for various reasons. One of them asked me once, "Hey, is there like a god of order?" and I, being a dummy-McDum-dum, said, "Well, there's Primus. He's the progenitor of the modrons and he lives on Mechanus." And my player was like, "Cool, I want him to help us close this rift."

And now I'm like, "Uhhhh...."

So my initial thought here is that Mechanus is dealing with some kind of threat that has absorbed Primus' attention. If the PCs can make the threat go bye-bye, Primus will grant them an audience.

So I need something so powerful that Primus can't not deal with it, but not so powerful it will wipe out my 13th level PCs. My initial thought is that there's a slaad invasion, and they're empowered by this Chaos artifact that's creating a beachhead onto Mechanus. Primus and the modrons are busy dealing with all the foot-soldier slaad who are running amok through Mechanus, leaving no resources free to take out the Chaos artifact.

NPCs:
Cute modron mascot for potential party adoption
Helpful djinn (planar merchant) who can explain the situation to the PCs

Enemies:
Strike teams: 1d4 red slaad, 1d4 blue slaad, and 1d4-2 green slaad (encountered en route to artifact, half hp and spell slots)
Defending Chaos Artifact: 1d6 red slaad, 1 blue slaad, 1d4-1 green slaad, 1 grey slaad (plus random battlefield effects from Chaos artifact)
Reinforcements From Limbo: 1d4 red slaad, 1 green slaad, 1 grey slaad, and 1 death slaad (appear as PCs go to take control of the Chaos artifact)

I would love input on 1) how reasonable this setup is for a group of 5 13th level PCs (sorcerer with no damage spells, twilight cleric, Mercy monk, Bear barbarian, and swashbuckler rogue), 2) Setups y'all think are better than what I laid out, 'cuz I need all the help I can get, 3) Ways Primus can help the PCs without just solving the problem for them.

[Unoriginal]

First up, if you're playing in my "Augustus Giovanni Must Die" campaign, GO AWAY.

No really. Kick rocks.

Alright, so the city in my current sandbox urban campaign is menaced by crazy sewer people empowered by a rift to the Far Realms located deep under the sewers. My PCs want to close this rift for various reasons. One of them asked me once, "Hey, is there like a god of order?" and I, being a dummy-McDum-dum, said, "Well, there's Primus. He's the progenitor of the modrons and he lives on Mechanus." And my player was like, "Cool, I want him to help us close this rift."

And now I'm like, "Uhhhh...."

So my initial thought here is that Mechanus is dealing with some kind of threat that has absorbed Primus' attention. If the PCs can make the threat go bye-bye, Primus will grant them an audience.

So I need something so powerful that Primus can't not deal with it, but not so powerful it will wipe out my 13th level PCs. My initial thought is that there's a slaad invasion, and they're empowered by this Chaos artifact that's creating a beachhead onto Mechanus. Primus and the modrons are busy dealing with all the foot-soldier slaad who are running amok through Mechanus, leaving no resources free to take out the Chaos artifact.

NPCs:
Cute modron mascot for potential party adoption
Helpful djinn (planar merchant) who can explain the situation to the PCs

Enemies:
Strike teams: 1d4 red slaad, 1d4 blue slaad, and 1d4-2 green slaad (encountered en route to artifact, half hp and spell slots)
Defending Chaos Artifact: 1d6 red slaad, 1 blue slaad, 1d4-1 green slaad, 1 grey slaad (plus random battlefield effects from Chaos artifact)
Reinforcements From Limbo: 1d4 red slaad, 1 green slaad, 1 grey slaad, and 1 death slaad (appear as PCs go to take control of the Chaos artifact)

I would love input on 1) how reasonable this setup is for a group of 5 13th level PCs (sorcerer with no damage spells, twilight cleric, Mercy monk, Bear barbarian, and swashbuckler rogue), 2) Setups y'all think are better than what I laid out, 'cuz I need all the help I can get, 3) Ways Primus can help the PCs without just solving the problem for them.

I think you should let the PCs try to get an audience if they want to, but make clear from the get-go Mechanius has no interest in helping them.

Primus is not a god of Order, he's Order itself. In all its true neutrality.

A rift to the Far Realm on a single Material Plane world is none of his business. Everything is working as intended, and it is not the pleas of some ephemeral mid-level characters that would affect that judgement.

Might as well plead to a clock to slow down time.

What you could have is the PCs being bounced around the Modron administration for a while, each time with the Outsider who talks with them expressing that everything is working as intended but thanking them for the detailed report of the events (ex: "Thank you for the data you provided. I will update Dossier 446-B-33332, "extraplanar encroachment in enclosed environments on Material Worlds in section 444V of the Prime Material World").

Maybe one of the Modrons can provide help in the form of telling them such an incident already happened once and how it was resolved, after a bit.

[Mastikator]

I'm kinda curious how they're getting to mechanus in the first place, does the sorcerer have planeshift and the correct tuning fork? Is the djinni willing to sell them a use of planeshift to send them to mechanus?

Another thing I'd consider is having them deal with an inevitable representative of Primus before meeting Primus itself. 5e only has a statblock for the Marut but D&D has a few inevitables in older editions (and you only need the statblock if they're stupid enough to try violence). Quaruts are tasked with dealing with disruptions to space-time, and could ensure the players that if the rift gets out of hand it will seal the rift. It could also give the players some machine that can be used to seal rifts to the far realm, but the machine is huge and would need to be difficult to get into the sewers. And then defended while it slowly shrinks the rift. While the machine works to shrink the rift aberrations (star spawn come to mind) could enter and try to break the machine.

I also agree with Unoriginal, as far as Primus is concerned a small rift on the material plane does not warrant the attention of Mechanus.

[Unoriginal]

An interesting moment could be that after a while of the PCs asking to see Primus, one of the -drons or petitioners tells them they have been seeing Primus since they first arrived.

And then the person saying that points to the unimaginably, unconcievably large mechanical marvel the PCs have been standing on and walking through.

Showing that to Primus, the characters are smaller than grains of dust under the nail of his pinky finger.

[Sparky McDibben]

A rift to the Far Realm on a single Material Plane world is none of his business.

OK, does that change if the crazy sewer people are trying to summon an Elder Evil through it (sorry, didn't realize that would be relevant to the conversation!)?


I'm kinda curious how they're getting to mechanus in the first place, does the sorcerer have planeshift and the correct tuning fork? Is the djinni willing to sell them a use of planeshift to send them to mechanus?

Actually they get there via an Interdimensional Nexus one of the factions in the city has. They've been granted access after several interesting factional adventures.


Another thing I'd consider is having them deal with an inevitable representative of Primus before meeting Primus itself. 5e only has a statblock for the Marut but D&D has a few inevitables in older editions (and you only need the statblock if they're stupid enough to try violence). Quaruts are tasked with dealing with disruptions to space-time, and could ensure the players that if the rift gets out of hand it will seal the rift. It could also give the players some machine that can be used to seal rifts to the far realm, but the machine is huge and would need to be difficult to get into the sewers. And then defended while it slowly shrinks the rift. While the machine works to shrink the rift aberrations (star spawn come to mind) could enter and try to break the machine.


An interesting moment could be that after a while of the PCs asking to see Primus, one of the -drons or petitioners tells them they have been seeing Primus since they first arrived.

And then the person saying that points to the unimaginably, unconcievably large mechanical marvel the PCs have been standing on and walking through.

Showing that to Primus, the characters are smaller than grains of dust under the nail of his pinky finger.

These are both awesome ideas! Thanks!

[Unoriginal]

OK, does that change if the crazy sewer people are trying to summon an Elder Evil through it (sorry, didn't realize that would be relevant to the conversation!)?

Depends which Elder Evil we're talking about.

One like Kyuss? Wouldn't change anything.

Tharizdun? That would at least get an higher ranking Outsider to look at the case.



These are both awesome ideas! Thanks!

Happy to help.

[Sparky McDibben]

Depends which Elder Evil we're talking about.

One like Kyuss? Wouldn't change anything.

Tharizdun? That would at least get an higher ranking Outsider to look at the case.

Kyuss, god of worms. The foreshadowing I've done describes him creating virulent worm-infections and spreading chaos and entropy, which is why I figure Primus would get involved. But it sounds like you're describing order as being more passive than good. That's an interesting concept, and one I can play with!

[Unoriginal]

Kyuss, god of worms. The foreshadowing I've done describes him creating virulent worm-infections and spreading chaos and entropy, which is why I figure Primus would get involved.

Yeah, Kyuss is way too low-key to be anything Primus would be concerned about.

5e Kyuss isn't even a proper god, IIRC, and as far as I know Kyuss's main goal was to replace all life with undeath, which is a kind of order, so Primus doesn't really have any objection to that (though you can of course change any of that in your own setting). As for spreading chaos and entropy, well, entropy is also part of order.

But if you decide that Kyuss's goal is to spread full-blown Chaos on a world, keep in mind that Primus does not intervene when a Material Plane world is getting consumed by a Demon invasion that threaten to make the world a part of the Abyss, either.



But it sounds like you're describing order as being more passive than good. That's an interesting concept, and one I can play with!

Primus is indeed not good. He is lawful neutral. As in, he is the incarnation of lawful neutrality and neutral lawfulness.

It's not that he particularly passive, it's just that he is Order in a cosmic sense, which means he is divorced from things like benevolence or malevolence.

He created the stone that spawned the Slaad and caused them to overrun the settlements Modrons had built in Limbo. His reaction was declaring "working as intended".

in response to Asmodeus's argument that of course he did evil, but he never did anything unlawful, Primus gave Asmodeus the Ruby Rod, binding the Archfiend to always be lawful or else.

[Anymage]

In official D&D lore, the forces of Order are not about stabilizing reality so much as they're about ensuring that order triumphs over disorder. Your PCs would most likely either know this or be made quickly aware if this were the case, since otherwise they get a cool sightseeing trip only to be told that they're asking in the wrong department. If you want to stick to official lore, you'd probably be better off retconning your explanation and pointing them at some powerful primal druidic spirit who's more likely to have a vested interest in the world remaining whole.'

Alternately, if you want to stick with the idea that the order wants to keep reality stabilized while chaos is more far realm and less giant frogs, you can still go with the themes of Primus being incomprehensibly vast and focused on a more cosmological scale. Meanwhile the orderly forces who'd care about something on this scale are also leery of personally getting near a far realm breach, since there's an unacceptable risk of chaotic energies warping them. They'll be happy to provide the PCs with rituals to help heal reality. Some of the components might require a minor adventure, plus extra materials to help protect the PCs from being warped if they get close to a rift. Then the PCs can fight their way to the rifts and perform rituals, giving a nice few sessions worth of content as they try to fix things.

[Unoriginal]

In official D&D lore, the forces of Order are not about stabilizing reality so much as they're about ensuring that order triumphs over disorder. Your PCs would most likely either know this or be made quickly aware if this were the case, since otherwise they get a cool sightseeing trip only to be told that they're asking in the wrong department. If you want to stick to official lore, you'd probably be better off retconning your explanation and pointing them at some powerful primal druidic spirit who's more likely to have a vested interest in the world remaining whole.'

There are also plenty of good gods and entities who would be happy to help, since said entities care about the well-being of people.

Neutral or event evil entities can have motivations to help keep the world not Far Realm'd, too. Heck, even chaotic entities are likely to oppose it, if they're local entities.

Still I think that the PCs asking Mechanus and Mechanus being itself in response would make for an interesting moment, but I agree with you, Anymage, I wouldn't make it a multi-session diversion or anything.

[Tawmis]

Unoriginal is right - Primus isn't a "good" or "evil" - here's an example:

From: MORDENKAINEN'S TOME OF FOES



Asmodeus is an unmatched strategist and orator. The most epic of all his achievements is chronicled in The Trial of Asmodeus, a play based on purportedly true events as researched by the aasimar bard Anodius.

In ancient times, as the Blood War raged, the angels of law and good that dwell on Mount Celestia issued a decree accusing Asmodeus of terrible crimes. Outraged by such claims, the Lord of the Nine Hells petitioned for the right to answer the charges before his accusers. The angels, although shocked at his impudence, accepted his petition and agreed to hear the bargain he proposed. Both sides, he suggested, would present their case to Primus, leader of the modrons. As a creature of absolute law, Primus could be trusted to issue a fair and impartial verdict. Asmodeus drafted a contract to seal the deal, and the angels — after carefully scrutinizing the terms — agreed to the trial.

When he testified before Primus, Asmodeus attributed his actions to the dictates of law and the survival of the cosmos. He admitted that he swayed mortals to evil, but he and his minions never breached a contract and explained the terms clearly. Had they not obeyed the rule of law in doing so? Was it not mortal ambition, rather than infernal deception, that led so many souls astray?

Asmodeus also pointed out that the souls harvested from the Material Plane went on to serve in the infernal legions that repel the endless tide of the Abyss. Were not such souls put to good use against the demonic hordes, a power that if unchecked would scour the universe of all lawfulness and goodness?

He further asserted that he was bound to the rules and traditions of the Nine Hells, compelled to adhere to law and to maintain the devils’ trafficking in souls. If he violated those laws, he would be no better than the demons he fought. Mortals who refused a devil’s offer were left alone, in accordance with the law. Those who struck deals with his followers and then somehow turned the contracts against the devils were freed from their debts. A contract is the law, and the law is a contract.

Primus weighed Asmodeus’s words and listened patiently as angel after angel testified to his crimes. Hours turned to days and days into weeks as more and more of his sins entered the court record.

Even Primus’s patience has its limits, and in time, the remaining angels who were eager to testify were told that only a few more would be allowed to speak. A brawl broke out when one angel, Zariel, pushed her way to the front and demanded to be heard. As the scuffle turned into a battle, Asmodeus looked on with a smirk.

In the end, Primus declined to issue a definitive judgment. He rebuked the angels for their descent into infighting, but didn’t punish Asmodeus for his evil ways. He did, however, order Asmodeus to forever carry a mighty artifact, the Ruby Rod, that would guarantee his adherence to law. The artifact, which has remained at Asmodeus’s side ever since, grants him and his underlings the right to enter into contracts with mortals for their souls but unleashes an inescapable punishment upon any devil that breaches such a contract.


Now, that said - going back to Kyuss.

The beauty of D&D is you really can make it whatever you want. Gods and monsters in your world may react differently than described in the book(s).

For example - you could say that Primus has been observing the increase in the Spawn of Kyuss (https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/2560919-spawn-of-kyuss) appearing - and his modrons are dictating the ramifications of it - and determined that it would be detrimental to the Cosmos to allow to exist at the speed in which it is spreading. Using some information about these creatures:

"Spawn of Kyuss are expressions of Orcus’s intent to replace all life with undeath. Left to its own devices, a solitary spawn of Kyuss travels aimlessly. If it stumbles across a living creature, the spawn attacks with the sole intent of creating more spawn. Whether spawn are dispersed or clustered, they reproduce exponentially if nothing stops them."

The Modrons may determine that if allowed to spread as quickly and wildly, that it is a matter of time, before it spreads into other dimensions (infecting Wizards, Spelljammers, etc.) and throwing the entire balance of Life and Death completely out of order. While this would not impact the Modrons directly as they are mechanical, their sense of observing to ensure balance remains would be destroyed.

So Primus has a vested interest in putting a stop to the Spawn, but not enough to care to send any Modrons - because that's not their job.

Now should a group of foolish adventurers fall in front of Primus, he may look into convincing them to stop the spreading Spawn...

[JackPhoenix]

There's another option: While the players are trying to deal with modron bureaucracy, fighting the dreaded red tape golem and explaining that no, they can't wait 42.4242 (repeating) years for an audience, another guest to Mechanus mentions he represents a power willing and able to help, for a price. The guest in question is of course perfectly honest, despite the red skin and horns and all that....

[Hairfish]

he represents a power willing and able to help, for a price

And the devils do have valid reasons (they probably wouldn't call them "good") to intervene in this matter:
1. Replacing all life with undeath would make the number of souls in the planes finite. They wouldn't turn off the tap for good if they weren't confident of coming out on top.
2. They're thwarting the agenda of a demon prince.

Also, demons in the employ of other demon princes may also be interested in containing Orcus and getting their hooks in the PCs. Demons would be unlikely to show up in Mechanus just to approach the party, but they could be waiting for them when they come back, if the PCs made it known beforehand why they went there. Or they could have established a beachhead in Mechanus that the party gets tasked with removing and the demons could offer their aid in exchange for the PCs helping them dig in (breaking a contract with Mechanus in the process).

[LibraryOgre]

At some point, they need to sail on a sea of cheese. Possibly in a race against someone named Jerry.
(https://youtu.be/LBQ2305fLeA?si=sQYG4qXGihwyAxBj)

However, if you want a reason that the PCs can deal with it but Primus cannot, make it that the problem is encroaching chaos, but that can solved most easily by disrupting THAT chaos. Which means he needs people generating a moderate amount of chaos... and then stopping. Modrons can't do it, he can't do it, but some mortals can.

[Unoriginal]

The Far Realm is as alien to Chaos than it is to anything else in the Great Wheel, though.