Proto epic rules

[redking]

I was trying to understand some apparent errors in epic statblocks, and after some searching I came across this thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?309696-D-amp-D-3-5-Spell-Slots-gt-10th-Level). Here is a summary.

Serarya's Observation:
Elminster from the campaign book of Faerun has many spell slots above the 9th level (4/6/6/6/5/4/5/3/3/3/1/1/1/1).
The Epic Level Handbook has a talent called Improved Spell Capacity which provides additional spell slots, but it doesn't fully explain Elminster's spell capacity.
The chosen of Mystra template is not the source of Elminster's extra spell slots.
Some unofficial sources suggest that characters leveling higher than the 20th level may choose an extra spell slot one level higher than their current maximum for each new level.

Karnith's Clarification:
The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (where Elminster's spell slots were first mentioned) was written before the Epic Level Handbook.
This early version had different epic rules, which were later replaced by the current ones. Elminster's stats were updated accordingly.
In the updated stats, Elminster only has up to 10th-level spells and has taken the Improved Spellcasting Capacity feat once.

Biffoniacus_Furiou's Insight:
Elminster's epic feats are not listed, but he definitely possesses them.
Elminster has 14 feats listed, all of which are non-epic. This is consistent with his known levels and classes: 1 Human, 7 levels, 5 Wizard, 1 Fighter.
Elminster is level 35, with four levels in Epic Wizard, granting him six epic feats. Possible feats include: Improved Spell Capacity (up to four times), Epic Spellcasting, Multispell, or Improved Metamagic.
His special qualities include Epic-Level Benefits: Bonus Spell Level x4. This might be a result of an early version of the epic level benefits.

My comments:
In Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (3E) and Lords of Darkness (3E) we had a sort of proto-epic rules. Here is what I noticed.

Szass (Male lich Nec10/Red10/Acm1/Epic7):
Has spell slots up to the 16th level, with "Epic-Level Benefits" providing 7 additional slots beyond the standard 9th level. The seven Epic levels precisely correspond to the seven extra spell slots, suggesting one additional spell slot is gained per Epic level.

Larloch: Male human lich Wiz20/Epic 12:
Possesses spell slots up to the 21st level, with "Epic-Level Abilities" granting 12 extra slots past the usual 9th level. The twelve Epic levels align with the twelve extra spell slots, indicating one additional spell slot is obtained for each Epic level.

Implication:
For both characters, each Epic level seems to directly grant an additional spell slot beyond the 9th level. This one-to-one relationship between Epic levels and extra spell slots suggests a consistent pattern in the progression of their spellcasting abilities. Obviously these got dropped for improved spell capacity. Interesting!

I strongly suspect that monster's RHD was meant to conform to epic level rules relating to BAB and saving throws, but this was never done due to the burden of having to change all the statblocks. It might be worth creating a fan project to do that, especially since we can largely automate the process through AI.

[Khedrac]

If you check the Forgotten Realms Campaign setting closely it actually gives the proto-Epic rules where "Epic" was essentially a prestige class in its own right, and at each level the chracter (player) selected a signle benefit from the available list, in summary they were:

+1 Effective Level
+1 Ability
+1 Attack
+1 Bonus Spell Level

Elminster (Ftr1/Rog2/Clr3/Wiz20/Acm5/Epic4) in this book has 15 levels past 20th, 6 of them raise his wizard level to 20, 5 are his Archmage levels and the remaining 4 get listed as "Epic 4" and give him 10th-13th spell slots.

[Promethean]

If you check the Forgotten Realms Campaign setting closely it actually gives the proto-Epic rules where "Epic" was essentially a prestige class in its own right, and at each level the chracter (player) selected a signle benefit from the available list, in summary they were:

+1 Effective Level
+1 Ability
+1 Attack
+1 Bonus Spell Level

Elminster (Ftr1/Rog2/Clr3/Wiz20/Acm5/Epic4) in this book has 15 levels past 20th, 6 of them raise his wizard level to 20, 5 are his Archmage levels and the remaining 4 get listed as "Epic 4" and give him 10th-13th spell slots.

To be honest, the proto-epic rules on page 289 of FRCS seem Waaaay more balanced and generally fun than than epic rules we got.

Saving throws and hit points didn't continue inflating to ridiculousness, feat progression was more controlled, and spell progression slowed down immensely. Just throw in the non-caster epic feats and the martial/caster divide becomes Less of an issue with each epic level increase.

[icefractal]

To be honest, the proto-epic rules on page 289 of FRCS seem Waaaay more balanced and generally fun than than epic rules we got.

Saving throws and hit points didn't continue inflating to ridiculousness, feat progression was more controlled, and spell progression slowed down immensely.Slowed down? Isn't this faster progression than epic casters currently get (since you can get a new spell level every level, as opposed to 2/3 of the levels if you spent all your feats on it, or 1/3 if you only spend the bonus feats, which is more equivalent).

That said, yeah, Epic spells were an interesting concept, but the execution was so poor that just continuing to increase spell levels, mostly use that for metamagic, and assign homebrew spells a level as needed would be an improvement.

For attack I'd make it +2 though, as that's more equivalent to a new spell level. Yes, this means attack will quickly scale off the RNG, but that's fine. Add Epic attack abilities (unlocked via level maybe) that give additional effects in exchange for large attack penalties. Like for example:

True Essence Cut (-20 to hit): This attack deals damage to the soul ultimately piloting the body you hit. Meaning that Magic Jar / Astral Projection / etc are bypassed, and that you can hit a possessed person to deal damage to the possessing entity.

Death's Hand (-20 to hit): The damage can't be reduced by any means, nor can it be healed for 24 hours by any means. Even if killed and returned to life, the damage will remain (which means that if all the damage they took was from this, they can't be resurrected for 24 hours).

[Promethean]

Slowed down? Isn't this faster progression than epic casters currently get (since you can get a new spell level every level, as opposed to 2/3 of the levels if you spent all your feats on it, or 1/3 if you only spend the bonus feats, which is more equivalent).

The FRCS version of epic spell slots don't get Bonus slots from high ability scores, meaning you only have 1 slot per day for each level higher than 9th. That's also before getting into the fact that those bonus slots are not coming In Addition to prestige class features, in FRCS-epic you have to choose between having class features(the only source of feats) or spell progression.

I'd say the math genuinely works out to getting Less spells and less spell power than with ELH rules.

All that's before considering the mess that is Epic Spells, which don't so much scale quadratically on the power-graph as much as they make a perfect 90 degree angle.


For attack I'd make it +2 though, as that's more equivalent to a new spell level. Yes, this means attack will quickly scale off the RNG, but that's fine. Add Epic attack abilities (unlocked via level maybe) that give additional effects in exchange for large attack penalties.

I'd have to say I disagree, if only because the sacrifice of attack for special effect thing is less useful than doing the same thing with a magic item or a spell effect. If anything, the system seems entirely redundant, unless the level tax was removed entirely and just made part of the core "Special Attack" system the way epic skill checks are.

If anything I'd prefer attack bonus to Not be a thing. I creates number bloat and it's less useful than class features and feats in all cases anyway. Natural ability score bonuses are the only thing that I'd say are likely worth giving up feature progression, because they're Much harder to get than attack bonuses.

[Biggus]

The FRCS version of epic spell slots don't get Bonus slots from high ability scores, meaning you only have 1 slot per day for each level higher than 9th.

According the the FRCS, they do:


If a character has a high enough ability modifier to gain a bonus spell for this spell level, he also gets that bonus spell of this new level.

However, Larloch's character sheet in LoD doesn't have this.