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thegreatqwerty
2023-10-28, 08:48 AM
The Penguin God
[disclaimer: can’t be used in AL, needs PHB + 2 sourcebooks.]

Also, can kill Tiamat at level 1 (2, if counting fealty levels)

Ever wanted an ARMY of minions casting big spells? Well in this guide I’ll show you how to! At Level 1! So, you see, this can work at level 1, and it’s so ez, your DM will cry!

So let’s go over the character real quick!
So they can either be [any race] Wizard 1, Knight Background, or a Variant Human -Feat is Magic Initiate, make sure you pick up Find Familiar, [any class], Knight Background.
I personally think that a warforged group of people is cool so..

But on the alternative if you are a Variant Human - Feat is MI, you get Find Familiar, class is Artificer.

Artificer? Why, Qwerty? Because at level 3 (when the rest of the party is level 2) you can get a nuke as an Artificer.

So, why do I care so darn much about the Familiar? Well your familiar is Fey! Can you see where this is going? No? I’m disappointed in you, theoretical internet optimizer.

You make a Fey Contract of course! So you gain Fey Ancestry in exchange for your name. You choose a new name. Your new name is Qwerty. More on this later! [after we go through why the Knight Background was necessary.

Yeah, so murd3r one of your Chaotic Retainers, and pray above their body to Devil McMeanie. So ask for da Wish spell in exchange for Fealty.

Well, so what’s Fealty? You gain a level of Warlock, and you must choose Fiend within it. Additional Cheese, maybe: (If you use Tasha’s subclass switching your DM might say you can change it to Genie and get a Ring of Three Wishes. I think that personally it doesn’t work so this doesn’t really work). Oh no, you gained a level! Tragedy, tragedy!

Simulate da Wish Spell -> copies the effects of Mordenkainen’s Magnificent Mansion, which is of course decorated with Wish Scrolls and Time Stop Scrolls and Tomes of (Understanding, Bodily Health, Clear Thought, Gainful Excersice, Leadership + Influence, and Quickness to Action.) Since you cant read them all, just have a lot of them and now you can get 30 in all ability scores. With your wishes, keep on making simulacra AND max out everything. Then that’s great. So you have an army.. Of Level 2 Artlocks.


So? I mean I guess they could all shoot low level blast spells and create a nuke but.. Oh yeah, Find Familiar Contracts (totally RAI). An army of Artlocks that happen to be able to cast a 4TH LEVEL concentration spell + Blasting (Like Sickening Radiance or Evards Black Tentacles)-> then cast Find Greater Steed for a minion..

So now if you only had 99 simulacra (why? You could’ve gotten millions!)

Assuming you only created 99 simulacra, you now have 400 Concentration spells running, (because 1 you + 99 simulacra + your greater steed + 99 simulacra greater steed + 100 familiars!)

Oh, and your buddies are spamming stuff like Ice Storm AoE, Vitriolic Sphere AoE, Blight, and other bam bam spells.

So now if you only made 6, if they all cast Sickening Radiance = Level 6 Exhaustion. So now you have theoretically infinite casts of 4th level spells. I mean like that’s great and all but what about that wizard? Well first of all DON’T group all together, that makes it too ez to Fireball the heck out of ya. If you’re feeling squishy cast Polymorph (4th level spell :P) to get some HP like wild shape. Oh, yes, and we’re being Onyx for no damage taken! And now if you’re polymorphed no more blasting but you can just Onyx when you’re low!

Oh, wow! Thanks to your familiars, and Artlocks, you guys now all have Fey Ancestry. Sweet! Now we can all give Fey Contracts for Level 4 Spells. So now 400 Concentration (you need probably 6 sickening radiance casters for instakills), and you can also cast blasts like Blight on your turn. Oh, and did I mention that you’re only Level 2? (supposed to be level 1 but fealty :P)

Well let’s say that by the time we shred everything with our army, we have became Level 2 (3 with fealty levels) we create twozies bags of holding. So now we send our familiar to put them together for a no-save nuke to the Astral Plane. Just another thing you can do! You can now nuke with 300 blasting spells, 300 concentration spells, and a 1-way trip to the Astral Plane. Golly, that’s impressive.

oh yeah and your simulacra can go to Devil McMeanie to offer THEIR fealty so they get wish (do the same thing as we did)
for even more simulacra. and then it repeats! Exponential growthhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! oh yeah, and if anything has hit points now we can nuke it by sending them to the astral plane, shooting them 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9999999999999999999999999999999 times with spells, Level 6 Exhaustion, and you can absolutely SLAY hordes. with your 99999999999999999999999999999999999999 simulacra casting sickening radiance strategically placed hordes can never get past you. it's just a shredder. and spamming AoEs 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 times is good. however this is annoying because it clogs up the action econ. but theoretically the most powerful build (I think?) ever.

Amnestic
2023-10-28, 09:58 AM
What exactly is a 'Fey Contract' and a 'Fealty level' in the context of 5e? Are they from a new book?

Keltest
2023-10-28, 10:17 AM
And why is the Devil granting the wish spell on top of warlock powers?

thegreatqwerty
2023-10-28, 11:41 AM
What exactly is a 'Fey Contract' and a 'Fealty level' in the context of 5e? Are they from a new book?

Domains of Delight supplement, Fey is Fey -> exploits, Fealty is from BG:DiA


And why is the Devil granting the wish spell on top of warlock powers?
*scrubbed*


Domains of Delight supplement, Fey is Fey -> exploits, Fealty is from BG:DiA

books are Domains of Delight and Baldurs Gate Descent into Avernus.

JNAProductions
2023-10-28, 11:41 AM
Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion does not let you gain arbitrary amounts of magic items. That's not even close to a valid reading.

Unoriginal
2023-10-28, 11:56 AM
Domains of Delight supplement, Fey is Fey -> exploits, Fealty is from BG:DiA

Having Fey Ancestry (temporarily, at that) does not grant you the ability to do Fey Contracts.


Fealty (Archdevils)

Archdevils prize fealty almost as much as souls. One way in which a mortal can demonstrate fealty to an archdevil is to lead a religious cult devoted to the archdevil or perform heinous acts in the archdevil's name. A character can also enter into an agreement to serve the archdevil as a warlock. Such a character must take at least one level in the warlock class, choosing the Fiend (represented in this case by the archdevil) as their otherworldly patron.

Nothing here about getting Wish from it, and it doesn't give you a free Warlock level, it's just you have to take a Warlock level if you want to serve the archdevil as a warlock.


Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion does not let you gain arbitrary amounts of magic items. That's not even close to a valid reading.

Next to nothing in the OP is a valid reading of anything.

kazaryu
2023-10-28, 12:08 PM
so...just to be clear about how this is meant to work:

you start with magic initiate to get find familiar:
you make a pact with your familiar which somehow changes your ancestry?
you then sacrifice your retainer in order to make a pact with an evil god, this pact grants you wish AND a warlock level
you use wish to cast magnificent mansion, which creates powerful magical items
you use those powerful magic items to simulacra loop
and with infinite simulacra you do whatever you want.

is that the gist of it?

so...first of all, yes. obviously if you can somehow convince an evil god to give you the wish spell in exchage for a single life. parts of this could indeed work...

but man, this isn't optimizing. its fantasizing. (oh and keep in mind none of these questions are rhetorical. if i ask a question its because im curious what the answer is) starting with:
the familiar pact: even if your familiar could make a bargain...how does that change your ancestry? and what benefit does changing your ancestry give?

then you make a pact with a devil in exchange for wish...instead of for a warlock level...which is literally what warlock levels are meant to be. also, why does it have to be a devil? can genies not grant wishes? are there no evil genies that might like a sacrificial lamb?

then somehow magnificent mansion makes several powerful magical items. so even if we assume that that works... none of those items can be removed from the mansion...and none of the tomes would be useful, as you can't read any of them before the duration of the mansion ends, thus restarting the timer to read them. or is the implication that you're using the time stop scrolls to create an infinite time loop? or at least a long enough time to read a full book. with a +6 you need a 13+ to succeed. i suppose that that is time positive. you end up with about 1 round of reading per casting of time stop. so you'd need around 10,000 scrolls. assuming that magnificent mansion is able to create powerful magic items as "decoration" which is clearly not whats intended, nor is it explicitly allowed by the rules. and relies on "it doesn't say you can't" which is pretty bad justification.

later you suggest that your simulacra make a pact with the same devil...which. I mean i guess if you can find a dark god that will give you lots of power in exchange for a single sacrifice it might be dumb enough to make a deal with a simulacrum...a deal that the simulacrum has no agency to follow up on since its controlled by you. but hey. i guess it could happen.


all in all this is really just "yo, if I get a super permissive DM i can do a bunch of cool **** in RP without worrying about the rules and...yeah. thats true. you can do anything you want if the DM lets you make weird deals with powerful beings. that isn't optimizing as far as i can tell. its just...hoping for a permissive DM.

JackPhoenix
2023-10-28, 12:09 PM
it’s so ez, your DM will cry!

I'm sure you mean "It doesn't work at all unless you have extremely permissive DM".


So, why do I care so darn much about the Familiar? Well your familiar is Fey! Can you see where this is going?

Nowhere, because familiars are just fancy animals, with animal intelligence and inability to talk. Good luck making a contract with that.


Yeah, so murd3r one of your Chaotic Retainers, and pray above their body to Devil McMeanie. So ask for da Wish spell in exchange for Fealty.

No archdevil will care about level 1 character killing a commoner enough to grant Wish.


Well, so what’s Fealty? You gain a level of Warlock, and you must choose Fiend within it.

No, you don't. You must TAKE a level of warlock. Which you'll have to earn normally. It's the price you have to pay, not the reward you get.


Simulate da Wish Spell -> copies the effects of Mordenkainen’s Magnificent Mansion, which is of course decorated with Wish Scrolls and Time Stop Scrolls and Tomes of (Understanding, Bodily Health, Clear Thought, Gainful Excersice, Leadership + Influence, and Quickness to Action.)

Even if you got the Wish spell (you didn't), a decoration looking like a magic item is not that magic item.


Oh, wow! Thanks to your familiars, and Artlocks, you guys now all have Fey Ancestry. Sweet! Now we can all give Fey Contracts for Level 4 Spells.

No, you don't, and even if you did, Fey Ancestry doesn't make you a fey.

Rerem115
2023-10-28, 01:12 PM
'Accelerating' pacts and contracts aside, the core premise is that Magnificent Mansion generates an arbitrarily large number of consumable magic items. If that was the case, then every single 13th level Wizard and Bard would be running around with 30s in every ability score, and have infinite downtime—and AL legal to boot, since it's all supposedly available from a single casting of a 7th level spell in the SRD.

...And the fact that they aren't strongly suggests that this reading is utter nonsense. Even if you decided not to take the 'optimized 2 level plan' and acquired the spell legally, the 'exploit' still doesn't work.

RogueJK
2023-10-28, 02:23 PM
https://media3.giphy.com/media/2fs2I4ujlBf20/giphy.gif

Unoriginal
2023-10-28, 02:29 PM
Funniest part is that Tiamat cannot be affected by spells below spell lvl 7.

Lalliman
2023-10-28, 02:53 PM
This is Yu-Gi-Oh's "attack the moon" but for D&D, lmao.

Vorpalchicken
2023-10-29, 05:06 PM
Weird Things You Can Do in D&D. After Your DM Has Smoked a Bag of Crack.

thegreatqwerty
2023-10-30, 07:56 AM
I'm sure you mean "It doesn't work at all unless you have extremely permissive DM".



Nowhere, because familiars are just fancy animals, with animal intelligence and inability to talk. Good luck making a contract with that.



No archdevil will care about level 1 character killing a commoner enough to grant Wish.



No, you don't. You must TAKE a level of warlock. Which you'll have to earn normally. It's the price you have to pay, not the reward you get.



Even if you got the Wish spell (you didn't), a decoration looking like a magic item is not that magic item.



No, you don't, and even if you did, Fey Ancestry doesn't make you a fey.


Actually RAW it counts.
Also, you get the wish spell in EXCHANGE for fealty.

also you command the familiar :D



huh, I was wrong. first time poster. Sorry!

Chronos
2023-10-30, 03:59 PM
Actually RAW it counts.
Just in case there was any confusion, "Rules As Written" doesn't refer to the rules you just wrote in the margin of your math notebook because you were bored in algebra. It refers to the rules that are written in the actual rulebooks.

LudicSavant
2023-11-01, 01:08 AM
What is even happening right now?

Snivlem
2023-11-01, 03:11 PM
Great post. It inspired me to even better lvl 1 optimization I can't believe I have never thought off before I read your post.
Step 1: Take a level of cleric. Any God will work.
Step 2: Pray to your God 666 times .
Step 3: Ask your God for unlimited hp and unlimited 9th level spell slots.
Step 4: win

It is so easy your DM will cry

Brookshw
2023-11-01, 04:43 PM
What is even happening right now?

Seems like the OP admitted their mistake and now people are.....being people.

flat_footed
2023-11-01, 09:07 PM
The Fullmetal Mod: Further posts are not likely to be productive.