Bardsader - I forgot how to build one

[Firechanter]

Hi guys,

I'm looking into ways to make an Inspire Courage buffer for a 3.P environment, and going through the PF options (including a bunch of archetypes of non-bard classes) the good old 3.5 Bardblade/Bardsader came to mind again. Near-full BAB and full IC, what's not to like? I think I probably have a draft (which I never played) buried somewhere, but out of reach now, so I figured I'd quickly whip something up.
Turns out, I'm not at all sure how to make one.
I remember we start with 4 levels of Bard and then proceed with the Initiator class of choice, sure.
My main plan would be to take Song of White Raven, Song of the Heart, maybe Extra Music (or Lingering Performance if using PF performance rules); pick up the staple items as soon as affordable, and end up with something like +5 IC around level 8, not counting Inspirational Boost. I'd pass on Words of Creation bc of lactose intolerance.

But how to distribute the ability points? Go STR build or DEX? Pump CHA high or leave it at 14 or so? (Assume 32PB by 3.5 or 25PB by PF rules.)
A straight Crusader I once played worked flawlessly as Str build with a Glaive in a Lockdown / Tank role. But he didn't have to spend various feats on Bardic stuff.

I tried to search myself but most links I find are dead, leading to forums that no longer exist and whatnot.
So I'd really appreciate a refresher. =)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I don't think there's any one best build for this, as some focus more on initiator and others focus more on spellcasting (with Sublime Chord). If you have a link to a thread on a dead board, use the search bar at the top of https://archive.org/web/ for that URL and find the most recent date that it was logged. That also works for WotC pages, but if the link is www. replace that with archive. as those would be more recent.

A Bard 4/ X 2/ Crusader 14 gets 9th level maneuvers at 20th.

One of those two levels can be a Spellsword 1 dip for negating some ASF, such as from a mithral heavy shield. The other could be Mindbender because it's so good, but that loses a point of BAB. Or if you're using DFI, make that a Dragonblood Sorcerer dip, which also allows you to use wands of Sorcerer spells such as Wings of Cover. Or dip a level of Warblade at your 9th+ character level for IHS and a few others.

You'll have ASF for medium and heavy armor, so use a mithral breastplate, or take Battle Caster once and wear a mithral full plate. The latter can go Dex 10 until you get a +6 enhancement item. Staying at Cha 14 base should be fine, pick utility spells instead of anything with a saving throw.

For any Crusader-focused build I recommend using Dragonborn with something that has little drawback from losing traits, such as Warforged (which keeps its type and subtype and everything that goes with those). Get the heart aspect for a breath weapon, take Entangling Exhalation, and try to use that as often as possible to keep opponents debuffed so they can't run past you and attack softer targets.

[Firechanter]

Ah right, Schord was also a thing... did I mention I haven't played 3.5 in a while? ^^

I also just realized, since Bard 4 without S-Chord will never get significantly more than 6 spells per day (PF spell progression), he might as well buy 2 lesser rods of Still Spell and be rid of the ASF that way.
Then I suppose to mostly focus on defense; being able to move and flank would be nice, but the actual damage can be done by another character.

[Troacctid]

Ah right, Schord was also a thing... did I mention I haven't played 3.5 in a while? ^^

I also just realized, since Bard 4 without S-Chord will never get significantly more than 6 spells per day (PF spell progression), he might as well buy 2 lesser rods of Still Spell and be rid of the ASF that way.
Then I suppose to mostly focus on defense; being able to move and flank would be nice, but the actual damage can be done by another character.
Still Spell doesn't come in rods, but you could get bracers of arcane freedom, or just be a divine bard.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Dragonfire Inspiration is probably the optimal route to go. You can also take advantage of all those extra damage dice with the Aura of Chaos stance.

If you're worried about casting in armor, Dragonscale Husk is worth at least looking at. Being unable to wear armor sucks, but with Bracers of Armor you can still get armor properties. (Or just a ludicrous AC, since Dragonscale Husk technically provides a typeless bonus instead of an armor bonus, and does RAW stack with magic items. YMMV on whether this is cheese or just the one advantage of an otherwise weak ACF).

[Morphic tide]

If you're worried about casting in armor, Dragonscale Husk is worth at least looking at. Being unable to wear armor sucks, but with Bracers of Armor you can still get armor properties. (Or just a ludicrous AC, since Dragonscale Husk technically provides a typeless bonus instead of an armor bonus, and does RAW stack with magic items. YMMV on whether this is cheese or just the one advantage of an otherwise weak ACF).
When optimizing Dragonscale Husk, you usually look to cheese Bloodline multi-advancement with as many Heavy Armor Proficiencies as you can get. Hard to find good multi-progressions, though the usual Barb/Fighter/ToB dipstack gets you quite some milage.

[Firechanter]

Gotta say I'm not actually such a big fan of DFI. It's mostly great for TWFers, good for S&B, but offers only marginal benefits to THFers. Depending on the party composition, it may not be worth the investment.
And seeing how in 3.5, attack bonus is a relatively rare commodity, I'd rather have more of that and increase the chances of driving another Iterative home.

(Compare that to PF1 where you can collect attack bonuses out the wazoo but only convert a small fraction of that to damage.)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Gotta say I'm not actually such a big fan of DFI. It's mostly great for TWFers, good for S&B, but offers only marginal benefits to THFers. Depending on the party composition, it may not be worth the investment.
And seeing how in 3.5, attack bonus is a relatively rare commodity, I'd rather have more of that and increase the chances of driving another Iterative home.

(Compare that to PF1 where you can collect attack bonuses out the wazoo but only convert a small fraction of that to damage.)

It's also amazing for animals with multiple attacks, such as an animal companion, wild cohort, or summon nature's ally.

You can take Lingering Song, IC normally, then the next round start a DFI and still have five more rounds of the normal IC. Granted you'll run out of Badge of Valor uses and Inspirational Boost slots significantly faster doing it that way, so only pick one of those two songs to bonus with those IMO.

You can take Leadership and have a bard cohort who uses DFI while you do IC normally. You can actually stack IC from six bards, one normal and five DFIs for each of the different energy types if four of those each have a different draconic heritage.