3.P - Optimizing The Freelancer (FFd20)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

FinalFantasyd20 (https://www.finalfantasyd20.com/) has a class called the freelancer (https://www.finalfantasyd20.com/classes/miscellaneous-classes/freelancer/), which gains a pool of points each level (60 at level 1 and 30 at every additional level) to spend on improving its abilities or on purchasing abilities from other classes. Class abilities that scale with level (such as spellcasting) cost 1/2 the purchase amount (generally 20 points to purchase and 10 every level it improves, which is mandatory).

You can't freely multiclass or take PrCs, meaning once you take levels in other classes, you can't come back to it.

So what fun, unusual, and optimized builds can you come up with for it? Make sure you mention whether you're sticking with just FFd20, or if you're using 3.5 and/or Pathfinder.

I'm not in a position to do much with it right now, but I'd like to see your ideas on it.

Please use this thread for discussing specific builds and optimization of the class. The other thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?661541-3-P-Discussing-the-Freelancer-(FFd20)&p=25897043#post25897043) can be used for discussion of the class itself and its strengths and weaknesses.

[AvatarVecna]

So what fun, unusual, and optimized builds can you come up with for it? Make sure you mention whether you're sticking with just FFd20, or if you're using 3.5 and/or Pathfinder.

As far as "optimal" goes, it's very difficult to not just point to the incredibly obvious thing. Full spellcasting costs 100 points by lvl 20, and Freelancer gives you 630 points. It's less true in FFd20 than in 3.5 or PF because all the casters have different casting stats, but you could get the wizard-style chassis and also triple spellcasting as a single-classed non-gestalt character, and that would constitute less than half your build.

EDIT:

Feats at HD 1/3/5 are spent on "Extra Job Points".

Lvl 1 (70/70):
20: Cleric casting (0th/1st)
10: Unhinged Mind (Cleric/Elder Mythos Cultist)
20: Druid casting (0th/1st)
20: Fey Magic lvl 1 (Druid/Feyspeaker)

Lvl 2 (30/30):
20: Witch casting (0th/1st)
10: Otherwordly Allure (Witch/Seducer)

Lvl 3 (40/40)
10: Cleric casting (2nd)
10: Druid casting (2nd)
20: Sorcerer casting (0th/1st)

Lvl 4 (30/30)
20: Oracle casting (0th/1st)
10: Sorcerer casting (2nd)

Lvl 5 (40/40)
10: Cleric casting (3rd)
10: Druid casting (3rd)
20: Witch casting (2nd/3rd)

Lvl 6 (30/30)
20: Oracle casting (2nd/3rd)
10: Sorcerer casting (3rd)

Lvl 7 (30/30)
10: Cleric casting (4th)
10: Druid casting (4th)
10: Witch casting (4th)

Lvl 8 (20/30):
10: Oracle casting (4th)
10: Sorcerer casting (4th)

Lvl 9 (30/30)
10: Cleric casting (5th)
10: Druid casting (5th)
10: Witch casting (5th)

Lvl 10 (20/30):
10: Oracle casting (5th)
10: Sorcerer casting (5th)

Lvl 11 (30/30)
10: Cleric casting (6th)
10: Druid casting (6th)
10: Witch casting (6th)

Lvl 12 (20/30):
10: Oracle casting (6th)
10: Sorcerer casting (6th)

Lvl 13 (30/30)
10: Cleric casting (7th)
10: Druid casting (7th)
10: Witch casting (7th)

Lvl 14 (20/30):
10: Oracle casting (7th)
10: Sorcerer casting (7th)

Lvl 15 (30/30)
10: Cleric casting (8th)
10: Druid casting (8th)
10: Witch casting (8th)

Lvl 16 (20/30):
10: Oracle casting (8th)
10: Sorcerer casting (8th)

Lvl 17 (30/30)
10: Cleric casting (9th)
10: Druid casting (9th)
10: Witch casting (9th)

Lvl 18 (20/30):
10: Oracle casting (9th)
10: Sorcerer casting (9th)

Lvl 19 (0/30):
?

Lvl 20 (20/30):
20: Perfect Body Flawless Mind

You've got 7 feats and 100 job points to work with, and you can exchange those 1:10 in either direction. But regardless of what you do with that, by lvl 6 you've got 5 full casting tracks, all based fully on Charisma, three of which are preparing from huge lists and two of which are spontaneously casting from a handful of good general-use spells. Up until 6th, you're buying some stuff late, but that's perfectly allowed, and there's plenty of builds that take longer than that to come online, for far less reward.

EDIT 2: Avoiding the obvious (anything to do with casting-stacks, really), the one-size-fits-all cost approach makes it easy to abuse for martials as well. PF has quite a lot of X stat to Y bonus options, but most of them are split across various classes and archetypes that are difficult or even impossible to combine normally. There's a lot of archetypes that have good one-off abilities that are otherwise buried in a pile of garbage that you'd have to sell good features for, so nobody takes them. As an example, Phantom Thief gets to pick a skill at every odd level, adding half their rogue level to checks with that skill, and unchaining it (50% faster than anyone else). Normally this is pretty garbage because you have to sell your Sneak Attack for it. But if you can buy this and Sneak Attack and Full BAB and fighter bonus feat progression and all the skill points you need to fully invest in all those unchained skills...now you're cooking with gas!

[Crake]

Full spellcasting costs 100 points by lvl 20

I think you might have missed the bit further down where it says any level based abilities have to be paid again at half cost at every level they improve, INCLUDING SPELLCASTING. So this is in addition to the 10 points they have to pay every time they gain a spell level. That means that full spellcasting actually costs 290 points. 20 at first level, 10 for each subsequent level (because caster level, MP etc all go up every level) AND 10 points for each spell level gained. So 20+190 for 20 levels, plus 80 for spell levels 2-9.

[pabelfly]

So, I had a quick look at the point buy system.

Level 1 buy (60JP)
20JP for Full BAB and d10 HD.
20JP for full spellcasting
10JP for a second good save (hopefully Will + Fort)
10JP for a bonus feat

Levels 2 to 20 (460JP out of 570JP spent)
270JP for full spellcasting
190JP for a bonus feat each level

That leaves 110JP to buy miscellaneous abilities during levels 2 to 20.

Seems like a pretty powerful chassis, but I'm not familiar with the system. I'm sure I'm missing something here.

[Maat Mons]

I think you might have missed the bit further down where it says any level based abilities have to be paid again at half cost at every level they improve, INCLUDING SPELLCASTING. So this is in addition to the 10 points they have to pay every time they gain a spell level. That means that full spellcasting actually costs 290 points. 20 at first level, 10 for each subsequent level (because caster level, MP etc all go up every level) AND 10 points for each spell level gained. So 20+190 for 20 levels, plus 80 for spell levels 2-9.

The text that I believe you are referring to explicitly only applies to "extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural abilities." I know this has been debated before, but I don't think spellcasting falls into any of those categories.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The text that I believe you are referring to explicitly only applies to "extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural abilities." I know this has been debated before, but I don't think spellcasting falls into any of those categories.So everyone is on the same page, the bit under "Full Spellcasting" says:


Full Spellcasting costs 20 JP (Astrologian, Black Mage, Blue Mage, Druid, Geomancer, Illusionist, Necromancer, Summoner, Time Mage, White Mage). 10 JP per spell level gained. You gain the Spellcasting of the class chosen as well as the MP pool and Cantrips.The others are similar.

It does say "per spell level gained," meaning you only have to pay when you increase in spell levels...

Anyway, this is starting to look like something to talk about in the other thread.

[AvatarVecna]

I think you might have missed the bit further down where it says any level based abilities have to be paid again at half cost at every level they improve, INCLUDING SPELLCASTING. So this is in addition to the 10 points they have to pay every time they gain a spell level. That means that full spellcasting actually costs 290 points. 20 at first level, 10 for each subsequent level (because caster level, MP etc all go up every level) AND 10 points for each spell level gained. So 20+190 for 20 levels, plus 80 for spell levels 2-9.

It's actually debatable. You're correct that spellcasting gets improved every level, except we already have the cost for all spellcasting options spelled out explicitly, and they include the per-level MP even though it only tells you to pay points when you gain a spell level. They don't explicitly call out CL as being included in what you're getting from that, but it does say you "gain the spellcasting", it'd be very weird if that wasn't including the caster level, at the very least CL 1 in the initial 20 you paid (if not all the CL from 1-20, the way it includes your MP 1-20 already). Then the line in the "Restrictions" section disagrees by explicitly calling out spellcasting as something you have to pay half-cost for every time it upgrades. Does paying for the new spell level include CL bump the way the lvl 1 cost basically has to, or do we have to pay for that separately? Is the half-cost 10 (half the initial cost) or 5 (half the improvement cost, because a CL increase isn't as valuable as a new spell level)? One could make reasonable arguments for full casting costing you 100, 195, or 290.

And that argument isn't helped by the fact that none of those are actually a reasonable price for full casting if you compare the value gained to anything noncasting you could buy. At absolute bare minimum you could be a mystic theurge with no drawbacks from lvl 1, with the same chassis as the weakest of existing casters (albeit with basically none of the other class features).

And then there's an even more fun line in the restrictions section: "You may purchase more than one spell-casting ability, but it does not give you extra MP." So in the base system, this problem is at least addressed by just not giving you more casts per day, but then how's multiple casting work? I have Black Mage and Blue Mage casting, and just the one MP pool...so is the implication that I just have one big pool of spells known/prepared that I can cast from? That feels weird, but the alternative is that black mage has slots and blue mage doesn't, which is worse.

[Crake]

Then the line in the "Restrictions" section disagrees by explicitly calling out spellcasting as something you have to pay half-cost for every time it upgrades. Does paying for the new spell level include CL bump the way the lvl 1 cost basically has to, or do we have to pay for that separately? Is the half-cost 10 (half the initial cost) or 5 (half the improvement cost, because a CL increase isn't as valuable as a new spell level)? One could make reasonable arguments for full casting costing you 100, 195, or 290.

I cannot see why it would be anything other than half the initial cost honestly. Remember, its not just the CL increase, its the additional spells known/prepared, and increased MP, all the benefits you gain in adding a spellcasting level.


And that argument isn't helped by the fact that none of those are actually a reasonable price for full casting if you compare the value gained to anything noncasting you could buy. At absolute bare minimum you could be a mystic theurge with no drawbacks from lvl 1, with the same chassis as the weakest of existing casters (albeit with basically none of the other class features).

Except at the 290 interpretation, you literally cant get double full casting. At odd levels, you would have to pay 40 job points, but you only have 30, so you are simply unable to take double casting of that calibre.

Also, its not a full theurge, since it says you only get the MP pool from the strongest job, the two pools dont stack, so you would have a wider variety of options to spend your MP on, but you would still have the same MP as a normal caster

[AvatarVecna]

I cannot see why it would be anything other than half the initial cost honestly. Remember, its not just the CL increase, its the additional spells known/prepared, and increased MP, all the benefits you gain in adding a spellcasting level.

Base costs already include the MP explicitly, so you're paying for that twice. Especially galling since it's a thing that doesn't stack if you're getting multiple casting types.


Except at the 290 interpretation, you literally cant get double full casting. At odd levels, you would have to pay 40 job points, but you only have 30, so you are simply unable to take double casting of that calibre.

1) You're allowed to buy stuff late

2) Any unspent points are carried over to later levels

3) Even if both of the above weren't true, you could spend JP on even levels for a bonus feat, and spend your odd-level bonus feats on "Extra JP", so now you've got 40 points at levels where the spellcasting improves. But again, this isn't necessary, cuz you can just bank points or buy stuff late.


Also, its not a full theurge, since it says you only get the MP pool from the strongest job, the two pools dont stack, so you would have a wider variety of options to spend your MP on, but you would still have the same MP as a normal caster

This is certainly a weakness of buying multiple castings in the base system (although opening it up to PF becomes a different dumber debate).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I have a whole other thread for this conversation, which I made pretty clear in the first post. Why don't you take it there and not clutter up this one?

[Crake]

I have a whole other thread for this conversation, which I made pretty clear in the first post. Why don't you take it there and not clutter up this one?

Discussing the validity of a given build seems within scope of this thread, splitting that conversation between two threads would be incredibly annoying to follow.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Discussing the validity of a given build seems within scope of this thread, splitting that conversation between two threads would be incredibly annoying to follow.We've rather veered into talking about the class, rather than the build, so it goes in the other thread, which is why I made it in the first place. Please go there to continue it?

[Endarire]

What are the main things players are 'intended' to do with this class? That provides a more helpful baseline for us to improve.

Thankee!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

What are the main things players are 'intended' to do with this class? That provides a more helpful baseline for us to improve.

Thankee!I just asked about three times to take it to the other thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?661541-3-P-Discussing-the-Freelancer-(FFd20)&p=25897043#post25897043), which I made for that explicit purpose. Thank you.

[AvatarVecna]

I just asked about three times to take it to the other thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?661541-3-P-Discussing-the-Freelancer-(FFd20)&p=25897043#post25897043), which I made for that explicit purpose. Thank you.

Tbh those posts kinda make me disinclined to participate in either thread further, and I doubt I'm the only one.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Tbh those posts kinda make me disinclined to participate in either thread further, and I doubt I'm the only one.Probably a good thing, since I very specifically asked everyone to post the class discussion in, y'know, the class discussion thread.

[Crake]

Probably a good thing, since I very specifically asked everyone to post the class discussion in, y'know, the class discussion thread.

Class discussion and optimization discussion go hand in hand. Im with avatarvecna on this one. How to kill your own thread 101

[JNAProductions]

Probably a good thing, since I very specifically asked everyone to post the class discussion in, y'know, the class discussion thread.

How can you discuss optimization if you can't know for sure what works and what doesn't?

It'd be like saying you can optimize Truenamer by taking Skill Focus (Truenaming) repeatedly. That'd be a good way of getting your skill bonus up, if it worked. But it doesn't.