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Zenos
2007-12-10, 12:02 PM
I want to try to develop a world where nearly everybody are evil, the elves, the dwarves, the humans, the orcs and generaly nearly all the sentient races are evil, with the exception of a few outsiders. My main problem is:

Having a unique culture for every race instead of just the normal "elves are arrogant and live in forests," and the dwarven "live underground and speak with fake scottish accent."
I have a little idea about the elves, being kinda "mongol/nomadic steppe horse archer" type, but I have few ideas for the other races, although I think maybe having some nazi or atleast fasci dwarves could work.

What do you think?

Tormsskull
2007-12-10, 12:10 PM
I'm not sure of your exact set-up, but I'd caution against making everyone evil. One of the most iconic struggles in any fantasy world is the struggle of Good versus Evil. If Evil has already won that struggle (or there never was a struggle), you are severely dampering the mood.

As far as ideas for evil races, how about making the dwarves poison-brewing alchemists that capture people, feed them medicinal herbs and potions that turn them into semi-mindless slaves. They then sell the slaves off to the other races. I.E. Dwarven Slavetraders.

Elves could be Keepers of the Lore. Pick one type of magic or magic item creation method or other such niche that the elves could call their own. Only the most important of elves learns the secrets of that magic and they have an order of interrogators/assassins that seek out and destroy anyone trying to steal their knowledge.

Hmm, if I think of more I'll post them later.

Xefas
2007-12-10, 12:12 PM
Well, there are already evil twins of every race.

Vasharan (Humans), Jerren (Halflings), Duergar (Dwarves), Drow (Elves), Orcs (Sharakim)

Except gnomes...make some evil gnomes, and you're already set.

Zenos
2007-12-10, 12:20 PM
I'm not sure of your exact set-up, but I'd caution against making everyone evil. One of the most iconic struggles in any fantasy world is the struggle of Good versus Evil. If Evil has already won that struggle (or there never was a struggle), you are severely dampering the mood.

As far as ideas for evil races, how about making the dwarves poison-brewing alchemists that capture people, feed them medicinal herbs and potions that turn them into semi-mindless slaves. They then sell the slaves off to the other races. I.E. Dwarven Slavetraders.

Elves could be Keepers of the Lore. Pick one type of magic or magic item creation method or other such niche that the elves could call their own. Only the most important of elves learns the secrets of that magic and they have an order of interrogators/assassins that seek out and destroy anyone trying to steal their knowledge.

Hmm, if I think of more I'll post them later.

As for balance between good and evil, I'll just make sure that Good has enough of a bridgehead to survive and grow, slowly.

I don't want to do dwarves as anything related to herbs, maybe special fermenting mushrooms but not herbs. Dwarven slavers could be okay, although then I would want a more traditional way of getting slaves than druging them.

I've already made up my mind about who the Keepers of Lore sohuld be, the gnomes.

psychoticbarber
2007-12-10, 12:21 PM
Except gnomes...make some evil gnomes, and you're already set.

Yeah, what's with this? Did some fool at WotC decide that gnomes weren't important enough for a goatee-wearing evil twin?

Equal opportunity for gnomes! Equal opportunity for gnomes!


Ahem. Back to the topic at hand.

I think everybody being evil is just too unrealistic, even for a fantasy game. Basically, when you have a large number of people in a place, there will be some variations. I could see everybody in a hamlet or a thorp being evil, but everybody in a world, except for the heroes?

Maybe everybody in the world isn't evil, but everybody who matters is. All the powerful individual keep the neutral and good serfs in line. Then Good could try to overthrow evil (without turning evil themselves) and overturn the last decision in the case of Good v. Evil.

Emperor Demonking
2007-12-10, 12:23 PM
You might want your dwarves too be too lawful for thier own good. The gnomes like thier knowledge too much. The elves travel too much.

The fascist dwarves seem like a great idea.

Zenos
2007-12-10, 12:23 PM
Well, there are already evil twins of every race.

Vasharan (Humans), Jerren (Halflings), Duergar (Dwarves), Drow (Elves), Orcs (Sharakim)

Except gnomes...make some evil gnomes, and you're already set.

I don't know what the Vasheran are, and I would rather prefer to either leave the Drow out or have them being just another surface-dwelling sub-species of elves. They're all Chaotic Good anyways.
Wait, that was a terribly good idea! The major Goodly race in the world are the Drow, just more pragmatic than most heroes.

Actualy, I wonder if I couldn't maybe make some replacement races for the elves , halflings and dwarves and making the classic good races evil. That could be fun.

Redpieper
2007-12-10, 12:27 PM
Well, there are already evil twins of every race.

Vasharan (Humans), Jerren (Halflings), Duergar (Dwarves), Drow (Elves), Orcs (Sharakim)

Except gnomes...make some evil gnomes, and you're already set.

Everybody knows that all gnomes are evil

To add to the thread,

- Dwarves gone mafia style (for extra points add tuxedo's to the campaign)
- Humans, well plenty of real life examples sadly
- Halflings, switch goblin for halfling and you're set
- Gnomes as statistical madman who dominate the battlefield through tactics, strategy and enough conquered kingdoms to call them selfs an Empire

Ahh and of course there's the standard bunch

PS: For fun sanity damage, switch the drow roles with the evil dwarves. Yeap kinky dwarves in leather....envision it :smallamused:

Zenos
2007-12-10, 12:27 PM
Yeah, what's with this? Did some fool at WotC decide that gnomes weren't important enough for a goatee-wearing evil twin?

Equal opportunity for gnomes! Equal opportunity for gnomes!


Ahem. Back to the topic at hand.

I think everybody being evil is just too unrealistic, even for a fantasy game. Basically, when you have a large number of people in a place, there will be some variations. I could see everybody in a hamlet or a thorp being evil, but everybody in a world, except for the heroes?

Maybe everybody in the world isn't evil, but everybody who matters is. All the powerful individual keep the neutral and good serfs in line. Then Good could try to overthrow evil (without turning evil themselves) and overturn the last decision in the case of Good v. Evil.

I was kind of thinking along that path, maybe even to the point that only about ten percent of the population are non-neutral on the moral axis, but those who were Evil would pretty much keep the Neutrals wanting to serve them with a mix of propaganda/bribes/promises/"good deeds" like how Hitler built highways and did all kinds of stuff that made the people support his plans.

Trog
2007-12-10, 12:28 PM
Except gnomes...make some evil gnomes, and you're already set.
Svirfneblin, dude.

Swooper
2007-12-10, 12:28 PM
Except gnomes...make some evil gnomes, and you're already set.
There's two such races actually, Svirfneblin and Spriggans. Wait, weren't those two ever published for 3rd Ed? :smallconfused: I can't remember seeing them in a MM.

psychoticbarber
2007-12-10, 12:31 PM
PS: For fun sanity damage, switch the drow roles with the evil dwarves. Yeap kinky dwarves in leather....envision it :smallamused:

Ah! Ah! It burns, it burns!

Xefas
2007-12-10, 12:36 PM
I don't know what the Vasheran are...

Vasharan are the proto-humans, essentially. Humans are actually Vasharan Mk II, with 80% less murder and rape than the original.

Their backstory goes that the Gods made a human. After a couple hours, that human had demonstrated so much unashamed unmitigated hatred, spite, and bloodlust, that they just scrapped him, and tried again. Their second try are the modern humans. However, some demon lord (they suggest Grazz't) recreates them/saves them from scrapping and lets them reproduce, thus making the evil twin of human society.

Even their mechanics are an evil-twin to the human's. Instead of a bonus general feat, they get a bonus vile feat. Which, I suppose actually makes them weaker than humans.

EDIT:



Svirfneblin, dude.

Ah, my bad.

Ne0
2007-12-10, 01:20 PM
Hmm...I've never really felt for big alternative worlds. In a book, an original setting can give you a great touch, but in roleplays, your players will probably not enjoy and appreciate the specific touches you put on a setting as much as you've invested time in it. In the end, it's the story that does it all.
If you want to go for an all-evil world, I'd suggest one where the battle between good vs. evil has just been won, and the characters are survivors that have to find a new place in the evil world.
If you live in a world where evil's the culture, your characters don't really have a good reason to be good. Unless you let them start out as evil, give them a quest that keeps them together, and then let them develop good traits during that quest. After that, you can start the REAL strory arc.

Also: Best original orcs I can think of would be good, but slightly barbaric creatures that dwell on grass plains and tundras.

kamikasei
2007-12-10, 02:16 PM
Well, there are already evil twins of every race.

Vasharan (Humans), Jerren (Halflings), Duergar (Dwarves), Drow (Elves), Orcs (Sharakim)

Except gnomes...make some evil gnomes, and you're already set.

They actually made an evil Orc subrace? ...Why?

And Svirfneblin aren't actually evil, are they? I thought they were just subterranean, and bullied by the Drow and Duergar.

Xefas
2007-12-10, 02:55 PM
They actually made an evil Orc subrace? ...Why?

And Svirfneblin aren't actually evil, are they? I thought they were just subterranean, and bullied by the Drow and Duergar.

No, they made a good Orc subrace. The Sharakim are the Lawful Good highly-intellectual twin of the Orcs. See "Races of Destiny" for details.

GimliFett
2007-12-10, 03:00 PM
And Svirfneblin aren't actually evil, are they? I thought they were just subterranean, and bullied by the Drow and Duergar.

Correct. Not evil, just stuck in the Underdark with the evil.

Also, technically, Spriggans are evil fey, not gnomes at all. I think they were released for 3.? in Fiend Folio...

Devils_Advocate
2007-12-11, 11:55 PM
Zenos, are you familiar with the webcomic 8-bit Theatre (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=010302)?

The elves in 8-bit Theatre are basically the most refined, advanced, enlightened race in existance. And they are absolute bastards about it. They have nothing but contempt for their lessers, i.e. everybody else. The elven aristocracy, in turn, sees the lower classes more as a resource to be exploited than anything else.

And the thing is... this isn't a "power corrupts" deal. The elves aren't bigger jerks than anyone else, they're just the most successful jerks. The other races are also filled with selfish bastards and have their own corrupt, self-serving leaders. They're just less competant about it. Often fantastically so.

The majority of a populace may consist of clueless chumps rather than selfish bastards. But that's hardly relevant, because those people are just faceless NPCs. Anyone of any real standing or significance will be a cold-hearted jerk, because everyone with a clue knows that you need to be that way to get ahead. The underclass will consequently be treated like faceless NPCs by the bourgeois. Those in power may conspire to keep them ignorant.

All these different races, they don't get along. They pretty much all want each other dead. Obviously you'd want all the other races dead, 'cuz those guys are all evil scum who hate you and want you dead. The neighboring elves and dwarves have warred against each other for ages.

In short, everybody sucks (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrapsackWorld). The defining feature of a world like this is that pretty much every person, every race, every government, every god, everything... is defective its very own special way.

When creating something to be placed in such a world, simply consider all the possible ways that it could be horribly, horribly wrong. It's pretty easy to apply this to the standard D&D races by just exagerating their worst qualities while reducing or eliminating the good ones. Dwarves are greedy and intolerant, elves are arrogant, gnomes are paranoid, halflings are immoral little thieves, humans are short-sighted and power-hungry.

A given civilization will tend to be based largely around the specific ways in which its members implicitly agree not to screw each other over, and they will be very unpleasant to those who violate said agreements. If you're a thief in a culture where theft isn't tolerated, you had damn well better not get caught, because then you will be killed if you're lucky.