Semi-fluff question: Human -> Necropolitan -> Psion Uncarnate

[gooddragon1]

So, assuming you wanted an unlimited lifespan with not too much cheese, assume you took levels in Psion starting from level 1 as well as the Wild Talent feat as your first level feat, to drive the point home that your character is innately psionic. Then you become a Necropolitan. Then you take 10 levels in Psion Uncarnate (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionUncarnate.htm) asap. Then you reverse the Necropolitan aspect through true resurrection... would that work? Would you have an unlimited lifespan and also a constitution score? If you have the metamorphosis power and then use skin of the proteus most of the time, could you cheat the incorporeal aspect most of the time?

Not optimized, but just wondering.

[loky1109]

I didn't understand the trick.
How does Incorporeal Subtype mean unlimited lifespan?
For what reason do you need Necropolitan?


assume you took levels in Psion starting from level 1 as well as the Wild Talent feat as your first level feat, to drive the point home that your character is innately psionic.
Mmm... No, not innately. But why do you want innately?

What did I miss here?

[gooddragon1]

I didn't understand the trick.
How does Incorporeal Subtype mean unlimited lifespan?
For what reason do you need Necropolitan?


Mmm... No, not innately. But why do you want innately?

What did I miss here?

Incorporeal means no physical body that ages. It's not explicitly stated though. Necropolitan means unlimited lifespan until you can reach Psion Uncarnate level 10.

Wild talent, imo, does mean innately. I feel that it means it was there but undiscovered. Innately because of a theoretical DM where it would matter. It's all just theorycrafting.

[InvisibleBison]

Incorporeal means no physical body that ages.

Not having a physical body doesn't necessarily mean you don't age or aren't subject to death from old age. It just means the processes that cause you to age and eventually die aren't physical in nature. And while there isn't any rules text explicitly saying this, there also isn't (as far as I know) any rules text saying that being incorporeal makes you immortal, so it's just a question of which houserule you prefer.

Also, if you're a 15th level manifester, you should be able to both obtain and use a power stone of true mind switch, which lets you become incorporeal in a much less build-devouring way.

[gooddragon1]

Not having a physical body doesn't necessarily mean you don't age or aren't subject to death from old age. It just means the processes that cause you to age and eventually die aren't physical in nature. And while there isn't any rules text explicitly saying this, there also isn't (as far as I know) any rules text saying that being incorporeal makes you immortal, so it's just a question of which houserule you prefer.

Also, if you're a 15th level manifester, you should be able to both obtain and use a power stone of true mind switch, which lets you become incorporeal in a much less build-devouring way.

Yes, but this is linked to your class levels, so no need to replicate the process if you get killed necessarily. Also, it's not too unreasonable to assume the houseruling would be favorable here. At least imo.

[loky1109]

Incorporeal means no physical body that ages. It's not explicitly stated though. Necropolitan means unlimited lifespan until you can reach Psion Uncarnate level 10.

Wild talent, imo, does mean innately. I feel that it means it was there but undiscovered. Innately because of a theoretical DM where it would matter. It's all just theorycrafting.
I see. All this looks at least questionable (incorporeal = no aging) or unnecessary (necropolitan) or explicitly homerule based (needing innate psionic for some reason).
But in this terms it works.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Psion Uncarnate grants you the incorporeal subtype (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#incorporealSubtype), which does not say that you no longer age nor die of old age. You wouldn't even lose the need to, sleep, or eat and drink, so make it quick during that 1 minute/day doing something to avoid starvation.

Nothing about being a Necropolitan and getting resurrected will change or improve on that. Being undead would mean not needing to sleep, eat, or drink, so being resurrected would add those needs back to your incorporeal character.

If you want to live forever, just make an Elan (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#elans), they don't die of old age. You could even get around the need to eat and drink as an incorporeal creature with their repletion trait.

[Inevitability]

You wouldn't even lose the need to, sleep, or eat and drink, so make it quick during that 1 minute/day doing something to avoid starvation.

Fortunately, the rules compendium errata'd this.


An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It doesn’t need to eat, drink, or breathe,

No word on aging, though - my personal view is that if humans explicitly have a maximum age, simply becoming incorporeal doesn't fix that.


Note that in D&D, your ability to live is tied to more than the state of your body. Someone who dies of old age cannot be brought back by Reincarnate, even though no physical condition should carry over. It's worth modelling age as something that also affects the soul (or the soul's ability to tie itself to a corporeal or incorporeal body).

[gooddragon1]

Fortunately, the rules compendium errata'd this.



No word on aging, though - my personal view is that if humans explicitly have a maximum age, simply becoming incorporeal doesn't fix that.


Note that in D&D, your ability to live is tied to more than the state of your body. Someone who dies of old age cannot be brought back by Reincarnate, even though no physical condition should carry over. It's worth modelling age as something that also affects the soul (or the soul's ability to tie itself to a corporeal or incorporeal body).


Uncarnate (Ex)
At 10th level, a psion uncarnate becomes a being of pure psionic consciousness. This ability is similar to shed body, except the character is permanently incorporeal (and gains that subtype). If the character desires, he can become corporeal once per day for up to 1 minute, but he spends the rest of his time as an entity of mind untethered by the physical world.

There's a rules compendium? I heard of the spell compendium...

"becomes a being of pure psionic consciousness" and "spends the rest of his time as an entity of mind untethered by the physical world" don't quite go all the way as to indicate no maximum age limit, but it feels like that goal of becoming energy life forms to ignore aging in fiction imo.

[Maat Mons]

One of the simplest ways to have no maximum age is to be an Elan. Yes, I know page 16 of Expanded Psionics Handbook says they can’t live past 2,000 years old. The errata says that was a mistake, and Elans have no maximum age.

I also like to advocate for 4+ levels in Crystal Master, to eliminate the penalties associated with aging. If you want to look young too, there’s an ACF for Psion (Egoist) that gives you the Minor Change Shape ability normally exclusive to Changeling.

[gooddragon1]

One of the simplest ways to have no maximum age is to be an Elan. Yes, I know page 16 of Expanded Psionics Handbook says they can’t live past 2,000 years old. The errata says that was a mistake, and Elans have no maximum age.

I also like to advocate for 4+ levels in Crystal Master, to eliminate the penalties associated with aging. If you want to look young too, there’s an ACF for Psion (Egoist) that gives you the Minor Change Shape ability normally exclusive to Changeling.

Where is that ACF for psion located?

[Maat Mons]

It's from an article on the Wizards of the Coast website. You can view an archive of it here (https://web.archive.org/web/20151102153052/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070314a).

[gooddragon1]

It's from an article on the Wizards of the Coast website. You can view an archive of it here (https://web.archive.org/web/20151102153052/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070314a).

I had wanted to initially play a doppelganger who could live forever with the intention of taking ever more new shapes out of curiosity and wonder (like Lorwyn Changelings sort of). With that being available at level 1 instead of behind 4 HD and +4 LA, that makes the build much more viable. Basically, by learning metamorphosis asap to take even more shapes, and potentially even epic psionics for even further shapeshifting. That's part of the reasoning behind the psion uncarnate decision, but this was separate too.

[Beni-Kujaku]

There's a rules compendium? I heard of the spell compendium...

"becomes a being of pure psionic consciousness" and "spends the rest of his time as an entity of mind untethered by the physical world" don't quite go all the way as to indicate no maximum age limit, but it feels like that goal of becoming energy life forms to ignore aging in fiction imo.

I mean, "rest of his time" does mean that the time in question is limited.

[Crake]

I mean, "rest of his time" does mean that the time in question is limited.

Right, because they can still be killed directly. The psion uncarnate seems pretty clearly a transformative prestige class, intended to effectively turn you into an unbodied.

[loky1109]

Right, because they can still be killed directly. The psion uncarnate seems pretty clearly a transformative prestige class, intended to effectively turn you into an unbodied.

No. Because they "can become corporeal once per day for up to 1 minute." "Rest of his time" refers to this, and is not "rest of his life".

[H_H_F_F]

Yeah, agreed with the concensus here. Aging in 3.5 isn't the same phenomenon as aging for us. So many classes and PRCs let you stay young forever, your body no longer deteriorating - but you still die "when your time comes. I was going to say it's a soul thing, but Inevitability said it well:


It's worth modelling age as something that also affects the soul (or the soul's ability to tie itself to a corporeal or incorporeal body).

It can also be viewed as fate, or what have you. Point is, if it doesn't very explicitly make you immortal, it doesn't - you can't deduce it from how real-world aging functions.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Right, because they can still be killed directly. The psion uncarnate seems pretty clearly a transformative prestige class, intended to effectively turn you into an unbodied.

Oh, I definitely agree it's supposed to be how the first unbodied came to be. But that's exactly the thing: Unbodied are a race of living creatures, they explicitly have ancestors who were unbodied themselves (or at least uncarnates), thus they can breed, and since they haven't taken over the world with numbers and I can't see that many incorporeal psions getting killed before their time, it means they can die of old age. There is no indication that unbodied can live forever, and even less that uncarnates have that trait either.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you want immortality, there are lots of ways to do that:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?84920-3-5e-What-s-the-best-way-to-gain-immortality
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?528122-3-5-Immortality
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?563768-Becoming-Immortal
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?145990-Ways-to-become-immortal-(3-5)
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?504746-Help-gaining-Immortality-3-5-D-amp-D