Initiative!

[Rokugani_Minion]

GMs,

Do you use RAW in SRD 3.5 and roll for Initiative at the start of the combat?
Or, do you prefer do your own way, to roll for Initiative each round?

Do you use separate Initiative for the BBG and collective Initiative for their henchmen?
What are the pro and cons each way?
What say you?

Thanks

[Doctor Despair]

We do once per combat as per RAW and track it from there. Is it widespread for people to do it once per round? Seems like the main effect of that would be to reduce variance in initiative rolls (thereby buffing those who invest in initiative) at the expense of making combat more of a slog than it already was (i.e. bogging it down with extra unnecessary rolls).

[Beni-Kujaku]

Once per combat, with the DM only rolling once for all enemies and using either the best initiative bonus or worst depending on how much I imagine them to react to the situation.

One of my friends also uses a d10 for initiative in their games to give more importance to initiative bonuses.

[Biggus]

I used to reroll it every round as it makes more sense to me given the randomness of combat, but since I've been DMing some higher-level games I've switched to just rolling it once at the start as there are so many other rolls to make the game doesn't need slowing down any more.

I roll separately for all opponents unless there an unusually large number of them (in which case I'll probably be using the mob rules or something similar anyway).



One of my friend also uses a d10 for initiative in their games to give more importance to initiative bonuses.

Are they playing core-only or lowish-level only or something? I ask because it's easy enough for most classes to virtually guarantee going before most opponents by mid-levels even on a d20 with only a moderate investment. I've actually gone the opposite way in my games as I want to monsters to not go last once in a while.

[Satinavian]

Once per combat.

Different initiative for different kinds of enemies.

Whether enemies of the same kind are grouped depends on the overall numbers and situations. I generally don't want all enemies acting at once but i don't want to have too many initiative values either.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Are they playing core-only or lowish-level only or something? I ask because it's easy enough for most classes to virtually guarantee going before most opponents by mid-levels even on a d20 with only a moderate investment. I've actually gone the opposite way in my games as I want to monsters to not go last once in a while.

Basically, yes, they generally play low-level, low-op. But also, the point is less "it's possible to improve init to any degree" and more "if less resource has to be invested in numerical advantages like initiative, more can be invested in actually having more options during play".

[Chronos]

I go by the book. Not only is it easier, it fits more easily with the notion that everything's actually all happening all at once. With one initiative roll that you keep for the whole encounter, there's no real distinction between rounds, but with new initiative every round, there is.

[Gorthawar]

The players and all the monsters roll individually most of the times. I sometimes group some simple monsters together however. In addition I sometimes fudge the numbers a little to ensure that not all the monsters go at the same time. I believe the game is more interactive when there is a back and forth in an encounter. Otherwise all the heroes/ villains can just focus on one opponent and overwhelm them with no counterplay. For example if one of the party charges into the fray and then all of the monsters beat them down before the rest of the party gets their turn whereas otherwise they might try to disable some enemies or heal the charger as they see the issue arising.

[Crake]

Rolling once per round makes actions like ready and delay a bit wonky. There are some proper “roll every round” initiative systems for d20, i know the stargate rpg uses it. I would recommend revising the initiative rules wholesale if you want to roll each round, as the cyclical initiative of 3.5 doesnt really account for hard set “rounds” so much


One of my friends also uses a d10 for initiative in their games to give more importance to initiative bonuses.

Fun fact, baldurs gate 3 uses a d4 for initiative, so initiative bonuses REALLY matter.

[Biggus]

Basically, yes, they generally play low-level, low-op. But also, the point is less "it's possible to improve init to any degree" and more "if less resource has to be invested in numerical advantages like initiative, more can be invested in actually having more options during play".

I can see the sense of that given that they mostly play at low levels. But even by mid-levels the investment is very small; a few cheap items and low-level spells can get you a +10 to +20 bonus.


Fun fact, baldurs gate 3 uses a d4 for initiative, so initiative bonuses REALLY matter.

I'm guessing there are less ways to boost initiative in BG3 than in 3.5?

[pabelfly]

I'll do it RAW. The only time I'll make an exception to this is if I'm doing large-scale combat (say, 30-50 enemies): I'll roll one initiative roll for a group, so I can move and manage their attacks all at the same time. Moving and doing each enemy individually took too much time and was too prone to error.

[RNightstalker]

I roll once per group of monsters and the BBEG gets a roll as well. If I'm running a module any individual monster that's named will get a roll. I also try to give advance notice of "Billy Jean, you're up! Bobby Sue is on deck and Billy Bob will be right after" so it helps people stay focused and combat runs a little smoother.

Part of me misses the 1st/2nd initiative with the different casting times and speed factors, etc., but 3.x has enough bookkeeping to do as it is. It was also easier for monsters in large numbers to constantly harrass spellcasters on each initiative order.

[Crake]

I'm guessing there are less ways to boost initiative in BG3 than in 3.5?

Well, it has the alert feat which gives you +5, then you have dex, which can go up to +5, and then there's a flask you can drink whcih gives you another +5 for the whole day, so you can potentially be getting up to +15? There are also other random items that give you smaller bonuses to initiative, that I don't remember off the top of my head, but generally, if you have the alert feat, and decent dex, you're almost guarnatteed to go first. Some bosses also have the alert feat, so if you don't have it, they're likewise almost always gonna beat you.

[smetzger]

RAW.
Monsters get a die roll for each group that has a different init modifier.

I think rolling every round would be a bit tedious plus would mess with White Raven Tactics, Delay, and Ready actions.

[Talakeal]

If my recent experience in other threads is anything to go by, rolling every round gives the possibility of one character / side going twice in a row, which is apparently really game breaking.


I'll do it RAW. The only time I'll make an exception to this is if I'm doing large-scale combat (say, 30-50 enemies): I'll roll one initiative roll for a group, so I can move and manage their attacks all at the same time. Moving and doing each enemy individually took too much time and was too prone to error.

That actually *is* RAW in 3.5.

Very few people play it as written, but its true. By default, the DM is supposed to take a single turn for all of their characters in any given round.

Now, exactly how you determine what initiative count that turn goes on is kind of left wide open, which is probably why so many people ignore that rule.

[Jay R]

I roll once for the encounter. Occasionally, I have to make a judgment call if an NPC starts doing something after the initial melee has ended.

If the foes are all alike (an orc patrol, or several gorgons, for instance) then I will roll one initiative for them all. If there are some relevant differences, I make a judgment call. Last weekend, the party was attacked by two sixth-level rangers and four fourth-levels. I made three rolls -- one for each of the two sixth levels, and one for the four lesser ones.

In a later encounter, I made a roll for the caster, a single roll for the three pumpkin golems, and a single roll for the six wood golems.

[glass]

Once per combat.

Different initiative for different kinds of enemies.

Whether enemies of the same kind are grouped depends on the overall numbers and situations. I generally don't want all enemies acting at once but i don't want to have too many initiative values either.Exactly this, with the caveat that when I roll for different (groups of) enemies they almost always end up clumped together anyway!

The only time I will reroll initiative in mid combat is if something meaningfully changes in mid-combat other than by the actions of the combatants. For example, if three rounds in the floor collapses and the PCs and their suddenly find themselves fighting on the floor below I would have them reroll initiative to see who reacts most quickly to that change.

[Jaided]

I have the players roll at the beginning of a dungeon, and maintain initiative order throughout the dungeon. I roll for the enemies at the start of every combat and place them wherever they should be in the order from there.

Example: 5 players, the come across a handful of kobolds in the dungeon, players 1-3 manage to kill them before player 4 takes their turn. Player 4 is at the top of the initiative order for the players when they enter a new chamber in the dungeon and find a troll. If the troll rolls higher on initiative than player 4, it goes first. If it rolls lower than 5, it goes after 4 and 5, but before 1 gets their turn. Assuming player 1 is a bard and they want them to go first, 4 and 5 can always delay to reset the order

I like it because it ensures that you don't run into situations where someone with a low initiative always sees that the sentries are dead before they even get a turn. Plus initiative goes faster that way.

[zlefin]

I roll initiative at the start of combat.

I also use group initiative, so all the players have one, and all the foes the other, using the average scores of each group for the roll.
I do this because when I've gotten to play, it's play-by-post; and the game flows MUCH easier with group initiative. I also use the rule that player actions will be put in the most beneficial order; so the players can simply all post their actions when they think of them, and then once processed they will be put in the optimal order. That way you don't have to wait for someone to use a buff before you post your attack. Once it's the players' turn, they can all post, and in any order; that just really helps speeding things up and avoiding the situation where people fail to post.

[Chronos]

Jaided, that method removes almost all of the benefit to having a high initiative modifier, which to me seems more like a bug than a feature. If a player invests in high Dex, the Alert feat, etc., they should get the benefit from that.

[Pugwampy]

My new campaign is the first time i am trying standard roll 1 initiative only per combat . The downside ? I kinda find it harder keeping track of the rounds. Does seem a bit more boring . I am mainly hoping to save time .


Since 2008 my old group and I later on have done 1 initiative per round . My group loved rolling dice and its probably the main reason . If you like rolling this ones for you XD
The downside I think is its more time consuming . More players you have the game is a snail pace .
Yelling initiative every round maybe breaks the immersion maybe ? I also noticed players who rolled high then low sometimes thought they were forgotten .
I think feats like improved initiative is useless for this style .

All my monsters go at DM initiative .

I want to show my new group the 1 initiative roll per round next session and then we will vote which they prefer .

I think every DM should try both styles see if they like it or not .

[Chronos]

The downside ? I kinda find it harder keeping track of the rounds.
That's a feature, not a bug. You're not supposed to keep track of the rounds. It's not like at the end of every round, a big gong rings, or something. One round just flows into the next and folks just keep on doing stuff.

[Pugwampy]

That's a feature, not a bug. You're not supposed to keep track of the rounds. It's not like at the end of every round, a big gong rings, or something. One round just flows into the next and folks just keep on doing stuff.

Gong getting ringed is a perfect description of roll initiative every round . Players are kept alert , shaken up every round .
We are sitting at a table for hours. More interaction with the dice . The high , low initiative rolls makes combat more alive .

Its also a unique tabletop mechanic you wont find in turn based crpg,s

[Crake]

Gong getting ringed is a perfect description of roll initiative every round . Players are kept alet , shaken up every round .
We are sitting at a table for hours. More interaction with the dice . The high , low initiative rolls makes combat more alive .

Its also a unique tabletop mechanic you wont find in turn based crpg,s

If you need a gong call to keep your players engaged then maybe you need to refine your playstyle. When I run games, players are engaged because they’re interested in whats happening at the table, not off doing other things or falling asleep from boredom

[Hua]

We roll every round.
Yes, it slows it down, but it creates more of the chaos of combat. To us, the benefits outweigh the slowdown.

As for the DM, it depends.
We tend to do 1 roll for the boss, and a separate roll for each group of henchmen.
The melee gets a roll, and the ranged get a roll, and perhaps the casters. Depends on what makes logical groupings.
Rolling for each henchmen slows it down more than the benefit.

In the end, it is what makes the most sense for your group. There are many things that we could do differently for "Realism" that we sacrifice for playability. In First edition, the weapon speed of a dagger might allow for multiple hits before the guy with a great axe gets a single swing. That was removed because while it was realistic, it slowed play too much. You have to find the tradeoff of what is best for your group.

Go with what works best for your group. Don't be afraid to change it if the first try does not work for your group.

[Pugwampy]

Yes, it slows it down, but it creates more of the chaos of combat. To us, the benefits outweigh the slowdown.

100 percent agree with you .

[AsuraKyoko]

In Savage Worlds, initiative is handled on a per-round basis, and uses playing cards. Each player & group of enemies is dealt a card from the deck, and turns proceed in descending order. Suits break ties (in reverse alphabetical order, so Spades -> Hearts -> Diamonds -> Clubs), and Jokers are special. If you are dealt a joker, you get a bonus to all the rolls you make that turn, and you can go whenever you want, even interrupting other turns.

One of the nice upsides of the system is that you don't have to worry about remember who rolled what, or keep track of who has already gone. You just call for the next highest card, and collect the card back when a turn gets taken. All told, it's pretty quick to deal with (maybe a minute at most of time spent each round in total on dealing out the cards and calling for the next card in the turn order), and it flows pretty well.

There are also a handful of things that can care about the specific initiative card value or suit. For example, there's a drawback that you can take that means that, whenever you are dealt a Clubs card, you have to make a check, and if you fail, you spend the turn monologuing (which is actually not as crippling as it sounds for other reasons that aren't particularly relevant to the thread topic. If people are interested in hearing more, I'd be happy to oblige; Savage Worlds is my favorite RPG system, hands down.

[Thane of Fife]

Rolling once per round makes actions like ready and delay a bit wonky.

I would have said the exact opposite. Ready and delay become wonky if you don't roll every round. It's precisely when rolling initiative is done once and carries over round-to-round that those start to become troublesome.

[Doctor Despair]

I would have said the exact opposite. Ready and delay become wonky if you don't roll every round. It's precisely when rolling initiative is done once and carries over round-to-round that those start to become troublesome.

Why would it be troublesome to run it RAW?



Player -- Initiative
1 - 17
2 - 16
Monster A - 15
3 - 12
Monster B - 6
4 - 5

Player 3 doesn't like the idea of going separate from everyone else, so on their round they hold their action until after Monster B. Now initiative looks like this:


Player
1
2
Monster A
Monster B
3
4

In that scenario, it doesn't really matter whether you're rolling every round or just once -- they both work. However, if you roll every round, two use cases get strange.


Player -- Initiative
1 - 17
2 - 16
Monster A - 15
3 - 12
Monster B - 6
4 - 5

Player 4 wants to cast an AOE debuff spell, but needs player 1 to move out of the way. They ready an action to cast it when player 1 moves. Now, it's a new round -- everyone roll again!!


Player
4
2
Monster B
Monster A
1
3

Oh no! Now the enemy gets to move before player 4's spell would ever get to be used! Instead, they take some other action -- readying their action was never actually a valid option for them. In fact, they've now missed a turn because they had the audacity to even consider it!


Player -- Initiative
1 - 17
2 - 16
Monster A - 15
3 - 12
Monster B - 6
4 - 5

Player 4 got hit with a debuff that makes it very hard to actually take their turn. Player 4 knows that player 1, on their turn, is going to remove the debuff -- they want to wait for player 1 to use their ability. In RAW initiative, they could just let player 1 go first, then take their turn after. However, with this turn-by-turn initiative, we have to see how the new roll goes...


Player
3
2
Monster B
Monster A
4
1

Damn! Now not only does player 1 still not go before player 4, meaning they'd have to wait another turn to get cured, the monsters both get to go before player 4 even has the option to wait or not wait!

Readying and holding actions get very weird when rounds turn over if you keep rerolling initiative. It's much better to run it RAW: roll it once, and just track who goes when, either doing group initiative for the enemies or not as noted above.

[Crake]

Why would it be troublesome to run it RAW?




Player 3 doesn't like the idea of going separate from everyone else, so on their round they hold their action until after Monster B. Now initiative looks like this:



In that scenario, it doesn't really matter whether you're rolling every round or just once -- they both work. However, if you roll every round, two use cases get strange.



Player 4 wants to cast an AOE debuff spell, but needs player 1 to move out of the way. They ready an action to cast it when player 1 moves. Now, it's a new round -- everyone roll again!!



Oh no! Now the enemy gets to move before player 4's spell would ever get to be used! Instead, they take some other action -- readying their action was never actually a valid option for them. In fact, they've now missed a turn because they had the audacity to even consider it!



Player 4 got hit with a debuff that makes it very hard to actually take their turn. Player 4 knows that player 1, on their turn, is going to remove the debuff -- they want to wait for player 1 to use their ability. In RAW initiative, they could just let player 1 go first, then take their turn after. However, with this turn-by-turn initiative, we have to see how the new roll goes...



Damn! Now not only does player 1 still not go before player 4, meaning they'd have to wait another turn to get cured, the monsters both get to go before player 4 even has the option to wait or not wait!

Readying and holding actions get very weird when rounds turn over if you keep rerolling initiative. It's much better to run it RAW: roll it once, and just track who goes when, either doing group initiative for the enemies or not as noted above.

correct, ready and delay work perfectly fine when initiative is a seamless loop, ready just waits for the trigger while looping around, and then moving your initiative to the point where you acted, while delay just takes you out of the loop until you decide to re-enter.

[Thane of Fife]

Why would it be troublesome to run it RAW?

I'll come back to this at the end, but I'm not saying that it doesn't work RAW.

Case 1
This is working as designed. Player 4 wanted to shoot off an AOE, but they rolled badly on initiative and lost their chance. They can do something else and wait for a better opportunity later. This is no different than if Player 4 wanted to charge an enemy who started in range but moved out before they could go, or if Player 4 wanted to shoot an enemy who started in Line of Sight but moved out before they could go.

And yes, readying an action or delaying was not an option for them - those are options for people at the top of the initiative order.

Case 2
So, in what you've laid out, Player 4 actually can act on the second turn, just by delaying until after Player 1. But I also don't see any real benefit in the RAW method. I mean, it's different, but I don't see anything in the variable method there that seems wrong. Basically, the RAW method says that if Player 4 skips this turn, he can decide to go whenever he wants next turn, and I don't see any reason for that to be the case.

Back to the Top
The troublesome bit of RAW initiative is related to that second case, which is to say, I don't think you should be allowed to delay or ready an action from one round into the next round. It's a relatively common argument about whether you can ready actions outside of combat because it sort of lets you circumvent initiative, and that's entirely a problem of the RAW initiative system. In a variable initiative system, readying an action every turn of your life is pointless because when something happens, things will collapse back into the normal initiative system (i.e. readying an action is only useful if you beat the person you want to interrupt on initiative).

[Crake]

It's a relatively common argument about whether you can ready actions outside of combat

Whether it's common or not is largely irrelevant, because readying is a special initiative action which can only be done when running in initiative order, so the answer is simply, no, you cannot ready an action until initiative has been rolled. If you want to get the jump on your enemies, that's literally what a surprise round is, and hey, just so happens that a surprise round is a partial action, just like readying.

[Railak]

Once per combat, at the beginning, even for surprise round. And with how many I roll, depends on number and types of enemies. I'll roll generally anywhere between 1-5 dice. 1-5 of the same enemy is 1 dice, then every 5 adds an additional, until I get to 5 then I just increase the number per dice. Different kinds of enemies, like orcs and goblins, get seperated for initiative rolls. Though I still only roll a max of 5 dice for initiative.
And yes, it happens frequently enough.. lots of little enemies I've found is what my party prefers. Things they can generally kill in one hit, but the battle takes longer than a couple rounds.