Optimization Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXIX [Archive]

View Full Version : Optimization Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXIX

The Viscount

2023-11-01, 09:16 PM

Welcome to Optimization Stadium, the field of combat for our storied competition. Here the contestants will be transmuting lead into gold as we showcase the overlooked, underused, weird, wild, and wonky prestige classes.

Is it November? Yes. Does that mean that the spooky season is over? Not so long as you hold it in your hearts. Crack open Book of Vile Darkness and carefully trace out your... triangle on the floor (look at the art for the class I'm not making this up), this round we're cooking with Demonologist!

Welcome, contestants, judges, and guests to Iron Chef. Here in Optimization Colosseum, contestants will endeavor to create an optimized and flavorful character using a specified D&D 3.5 prestige class as a "Secret Ingredient".

Contestants: You will need to present a full 20-level build for your entry. Also required is a rundown of how your build works at lower levels, to demonstrate that it is a functional character that could be played from 1-20 in a real game. Traditionally contestants give "snapshots" of tactics and abilities at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20. The purpose of these snapshots is not just to showcase your use of the SI, it is to demonstrate that your character is playable at every level. For this reason, it's still worth giving a snapshot before you have entered the SI.

Menu: The "special ingredient" can be drawn from any legal source. Originally, the plan was to mostly use Core and Completes, but that was a long time ago, and we've started running out of interesting classes to use if we restrict ourselves to those.

32 point-buy is the presumed creation method.
If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in elegance and/or power.

Kitchen: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Elegance below. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. Here's a guide to most of what has and hasn't been updated. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x) Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt or Generic Classes are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars are forbidden. Please refrain from using Taint unless it's necessary for the Secret Ingredient (subject to a penalty in Elegance proportional to the degree of cheesiness of the Taint usage).
NB: Official Errata and 3.5 updates to 3.0 content are considered valid regardless of whether their sources would otherwise be legal. This includes the 3.5 update of Oriental Adventures given in Dragon Magazine, and the 3.5 updates of Dragonlance Campaign Setting content given in later third party Dragonlance books.

Cooking Time: Contestants will have until 13:59 GMT on Sunday, November 19th, 2023 to create their builds and PM them to the Chairman, The Viscount. You may submit build by email if it is too large for a single PM. Please put the name of your build in the subject line of your PM. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until 13:59 GMT on Sunday, December 3rd, 2023 to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted.

Judging: Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated on a scale from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, Use of Secret Ingredient.

Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. In the words of one of my predecessors, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.
Elegance could bear a little elaboration. It basically measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. We're cooking here - if your dish doesn't taste good, it doesn't matter how well-presented it is. Use of flaws is considered in poor taste, and judges are asked to take a dim view of this option, taking it into account while grading. Other things that will cause penalties here are excessive multi-classing, and classes that don't fit the concept. Please note the following: a legal source's relative obscurity should not be considered as penalizing Elegance, excepting the aforementioned issues with Unearthed Arcana. Using conflicting setting material may result in a penalty to Elegance at the judges' discretion, but a book's relative obscurity may not. In that same vein, drawing solely from the Core 3 (and the d20 SRD) should not be punished for lacking Originality.
Presentation: Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!

Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry. (A fillable, pre-formatted version found here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BG0-5sq4dL9Ooh7-QfXuyHzO4rXSz-CRcj29t6BeUVE/edit#gid=0))NAME OF ENTRY

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features

1st
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

2nd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

3rd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

4th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

5th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

6th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

7th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

8th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

9th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

10th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

11th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

12th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

13th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

14th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

15th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

16th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

17th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

18th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

19th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

20th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

Code immediately below (spoiler).

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features

1st
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

2nd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

3rd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

4th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

5th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

6th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

7th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

8th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

9th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

10th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

11th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

12th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

13th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

14th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

15th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

16th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

17th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

18th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

19th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

20th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities

For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)Spells per Day/Spells Known

Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th

1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

Code immediately below (spoiler)Spells per Day/Spells Known

Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th

1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.
Speculation: Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until the "reveal," in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.

Leadership is banned; we're producing a meal, not a seven-course banquet for a hundred diners. If your entry includes a prestige class or ACF that grants Leadership or a Leadership-like ability as a bonus feat, the feat should be ignored and is not eligible to be traded away for another feat or ACF through any means. If your entry includes a prestige class that requires Leadership, you still need to qualify, but the feat should thereafter be ignored.

So! Who wants to sign up as a contestant, and who wants to sign up as a judge? Looking for as many contestants and judges as feel like playing!

We will award 1st through 3rd places, as well as a shout-out for honorable mention. The honorable mention prize is given to the most daring or unexpected build. Judges, contestants and guests alike are invited to vote for honorable mention via post in the thread or PM. If there are no votes, Honorable Mention will go to the chairman's favorite build.

Past Competitions

Courtesy of some wonderful volunteers, there is a handy-dandy spreadsheet guide to all previous builds here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oyjVU5JmeCnC8YTMqDArDqE5PszHl0Ysadz630kuTGk/edit?ts=59a4835f#gid=0). PM if you'd like to contribute to the spreadsheet for access.

Iron Chef I: Entropomancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142470)
Iron Chef II: Psibond Agent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146583)
Iron Chef III: Cancer Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148584)
Iron Chef IV: Stonelord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150595)
Iron Chef V: War Chanter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152543)
Iron Chef VI: Master of Masks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156876)
Iron Chef VII: Green Star Adept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158633)
Iron Chef VIII: Pyrokineticist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160266)
Iron Chef IX: Animal Lord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162702)
Iron Chef X: Mythic Exemplar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164381)
Iron Chef XI: Blade Bravo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166539)
Iron Chef XII: War Mind (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9426386)
Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172233)
Iron Chef XIV: Seeker of the Song (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174434)
Iron Chef XV: Drunken Master (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176049)
Iron Chef XVI: Assassin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178202)
Iron Chef XVII: Ardent Dilettante (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182492)
Iron Chef XVIII: Unseelie Dark Hunter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186097)
Iron Chef XIX: Dread Pirate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190607)
Iron Chef XX: Incandescent Champion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10976416)
Iron Chef XXI: Ghostwalker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198921)
Iron Chef XXII: Dervish (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206576)
Iron Chef XXIII: Divine Crusader (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210071)
Iron Chef XXIV: Tactical Soldier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214198)
Iron Chef XXV: Scion of Tem-Et-Nu (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217441)
Iron Chef XXVI: Shadowdancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220956)
Iron Chef XXVII: Mindbender (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224008)
Iron Chef XXVIII: Cryokineticist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227304)
Iron Chef XXIX: Consecrated Harrier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229688)
Iron Chef XXX: Initiate of Pistis Sophia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233346)
Iron Chef XXXI: Shadow Sentinel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236908)
Iron Chef XXXII: Temple Raider of Olidammara (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239786)
Iron Chef XXXIII: Drow Judicator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243052)
Iron Chef XXXIV: Dragon Disciple (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246072)
Iron Chef XXXV: Death Delver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249542)
Iron Chef XXXVI: Acolyte of the Skin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252923)
Iron Chef XXXVII: Justiciar (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?255215-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-XXXVII)
Iron Chef XXXVIII: Hand of the Winged Master (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255215)
Iron Chef XXXIX: Renegade Mastermaker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260333)
Iron Chef XL: Nightsong Infiltrator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263173)
Iron Chef XLI: Geomancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266709)
Iron Chef XLII: Shadowblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270196)
Iron Chef XLIII: Bladesinger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=274122)
Iron Chef XLIV: Urban Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279116)
Iron Chef XLV: Talon of Tiamat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15216595)
Iron Chef XLVI: Cipher Adept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287314)
Iron Chef XLVII: Cold Iron Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291294)
Iron Chef XLVIII: Shadow Sun Ninja (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=297327)
Iron Chef XLIX: Thrall of Orcus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=302487)
Iron Chef L: Corrupt Avenger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307823)
Iron Chef LI: Black Flame Zealot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=312773)
Iron Chef LII: Anointed Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=317934)
Iron Chef LIII: Zerth Cenobite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325164)
Iron Chef LIV: Osteomancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=330890)
Iron Chef LV: Mountebank (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?336373-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LV)
Iron Chef LVI: Dwarven Defender (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?342807-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LVI)
Iron Chef LVII: Darkrunner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?349040-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LVII)
Iron Chef LVIII: Spellsword (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?357412-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LVIII)
Iron Chef LIX: Fleet Runner of Ehlonna (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?364667-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LIX)
Iron Chef LX: Lasher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?371835-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LX)
Iron Chef LX(II): Acolyte of the Ego (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?372145-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LX)
Iron Chef LXII: Dungeon Lord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?376810-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXII)
Iron Chef LXIII: Witchborn Binder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?382632-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXIII)
Iron Chef LXIV: Slime Lord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?387166-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXIV)
Iron Chef LXV: Thunder Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?394981-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXV)
Iron Chef LXVI: Dwarven Chanter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?400810-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXVI)
Irogn Chef LXVII: Gnome Giant Slayer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?406613-Irogn-Chef-Optimisatiogn-Challegnge-ign-the-Playgrougnd-LXVII)
Iron Chef LXVIII: Fang of Lolth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?412530-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXVIII)
Iron Chef LXIX: Shiba Protector (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?420165-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXIX)
Iron Chef LXX: Order of the Bow Initiate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?425634-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXX)
Iron Chef LXXI: Silver Key (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?431484-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXXI)
Iron Chef LXXII: Spellfire Channeler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?439020-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXXII)
Iron Chef LXXIII: Flux Adept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?448596-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXXIII)
Iron Chef LXXIV: Crinti Shadow Marauder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?458711-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXXIV)
Iron Chef LXXV: Thief of Life (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472831-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXXV)
Iron Chef LXXVI: Legacy Champion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477153-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXXVI)
Iron Chef LXXVII: Great Rift Skyguard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?482249-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXXVII)
Iron Chef LXVIII: Risen Martyr (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?487560-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXXVIII)
Iron Chef LXXIX: Black Blood Hunter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?492923-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXXIX)
Iron Chef LXXX: Master of Many Forms (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?498359-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXXX)
Iron Chef LXXXI: Serene Guardian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?502666-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXXXI)
Iron Chef LXXXII: Elocator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?505762-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXXXII)
Iron Chef LXXXIII: Winterhaunt of Iboorighu (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?510581-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXXXIII)
Iron Chef LXXXIV: Waverider (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?514631-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXXXIV)
Iron Chef LXXXV: Astral Dancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?519296-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXXXV)
Iron Chef LXXXVI: Twisted Lord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?525401-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXXXVI)
Iron Chef LXXXVII: Shadowsmith (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?528361-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXXXVII)
Iron Chef LXXXVIII: Arboreal Guardian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?533367-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXXXVIII)
Iron Chef LXXXIX: Thrall of Demogorgon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?536247-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXXXIX)
Iron Chef XC: Bloodstorm Blade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?542380-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-XC)
Iron Chef XCI: Fatemaker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?550203-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-XCI)
Iron Chef XCII: Eye of the Xanathar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?556092-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-XCII)
Iron Chef XCIII: Hoardstealer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?560330-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-XCIII)
Iron Chef XCIV: Doomlord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?564804-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-XCIV)
Iron Chef XCV: Gnomish Artificer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?571065-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-XCV)
Iron Chef XCVI: Oozemaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?576075-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-XCVI)
Iron Chef XCVII: Aerial Avenger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579553-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-XCVII)
Iron Chef XCVIII: Visionary Seeker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?583331-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-XCVIII)
Iron Chef XCIX: Life Eater (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?589964-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-XCIX)
Iron Chef C: Swiftblade (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?601292-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-C)

Iron Chef CI: Night Mask Deathbringer (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?610308-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-CI)
Iron Chef CII: Blade Dancer (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?613031-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-CII)
Iron Chef CIII: Psion Uncarnate (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?614461-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-CIII)
Iron Chef CIV: Atavist (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?615697-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-CIV)
Iron Chev CV: Primeval (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?618136-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-CV)
Iron Chef CVI: Disciple of Mammon (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?620730-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-CVI)
Iron Chef CVII: Insidious Corruptor (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?622560-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-CVII)
Iron Chef CVIII: Crimson Scourge (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624099-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-CVIII)
Iron Chef CIX: Tattooed Monk (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?626458-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-CIX)
Iron Chef CX: Rage Mage (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?628809-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-CX)
Iron Chef CXI: Watch Detective (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?630421-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-CXI)
Iron Chef CXII: Spinemeld Warrior (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?632291-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-CXII)
Iron Chef CXIII: Celebrant of Sharess (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?633637-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-CXIII)
Iron Chef CXIV: Thayan Gladiator (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?635212-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-CXIV)
Iron Chef CXV: Shining Blade of Heironeous (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?637097-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-CXV)
Iron Chef CXVI: Peregrine Runner (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?638522-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-CXVI)
Iron Chef CXVII: Imaskari Vengeance Taker (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?640260-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-CXVII)
Iron Chef CXVII: Siren (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?641848-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-CXVIII)
Iron Chef CXIX: Arcane Duelist (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?645786-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-CXIX)
Iron Chef CXX: Berserk (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?646933-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-CXX)
Iron Chef CXXI: Dragon Descendant (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?648507-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-CXXI)
Iron Chef CXXII: Cerebrex (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?650262-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-CXXII)
Iron Chef CXXIII: Defiant (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?651923-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-CXXIII)
Iron Chef CXXIV: Beast Heart Adept (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?652714-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-CXXIV)
Iron Chef CXXV: Shadowspy (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?654631-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-CXXV)
Iron Chef CXXVI: Ballisteer (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?655924-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-CXXVI)
Iron Chef CXXVII: Umbral Disciple (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?656764-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-CXXVII)
Iron Chef CXXVIII: Vengeance Knight (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?659069-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-CXXVIII)

The Viscount

2023-11-01, 09:16 PM

FAQ:
Q: What's this even about?
A: I'm glad you asked, actually... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15415117&postcount=1)

Q: Is Dragon Compendium Allowed?
A: Yes (as well as its Errata), but individual issues of Dragon Magazine are not.

Q: What about 3.0 materials?
A: 3.0 materials, whether online or in printed form, are allowed unless they've been officially updated to a 3.5 edition.

Q: Are Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, or Kingdoms of Kalamar allowable sources?
A: The Dragonlance Campaign Setting is allowed, but the subsequent books for Dragonlance are considered 3rd party, and are therefore not eligible, despite the "WotC approved" status of those books. The same holds for Oriental Adventures (1st party) and the subsequent Rokugan books (3rd party). Materials from Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, and Kingdoms of Kalamar are considered 3rd party for purposes of this contest, and are therefore not allowed.

Q: What about online sources in general?
A: If the online source is a) published by WotC, and b) not replaced by an updated version at a later time, it is eligible. Use it, link it.

Q: Where's the line drawn with "acceptable/unacceptable" for Unearthed Arcana?
A: A few specific things are explicitly acceptable. The elemental/environmental races, spelltouched feats, variant character classes, specialist wizard variants, whirling frenzy, aspect of nature, and racial paragon classes are legal. Item Familiars and Gestalt have always been verboten, since before IC migrated to GitP; don't expect that to change. Flaws have similarly always been noted as warranting a deduction; I'm extending that to Traits, though they warrant 1/2 the penalty in Elegance that a Flaw would because they're roughly 1/2 as useful. Alternate spell systems, alternate skill systems and alternate crafting rules all create an uneven playing field, and as such, will be disallowed for as long as I am Chairman. In a similar vein, LA buyoff and fractional BAB are also disallowed. Bloodlines and the Retraining options presented in the PHB2 are ripe for abuse, and will be strongly discouraged as long as I am Chairman. Note that judges are allowed to look askance at any use of Unearthed Arcana not specifically mentioned above, at their discretion, and otherwise penalize Elegance according to their preference.

Q: What, exactly, does the ban on Leadership mean?
A: As folks have started to try to work around the edges of this one, I'm forced to spell it out more plainly. No Leadership, Draconic Cohort, or Feats that grant a similar ability are allowed EXCEPT Wild Cohort. Any PrC you choose with Leadership or a Leadership-analog has that ability entirely ignored for this contest, as it may neither be used nor traded away via any means whatsoever.

Q: What's the minimum score in a category?
A: Assuming an entry is legal, the minimum score in any category is 1. If a judge is convinced that an entry is mechanically illegal by the RAW, the judge may give the build a score of 0 in Elegance, and proceed to judge the entry as if the offending material was not included. Failing to meet a special requirement for a prestige class does not merit a 0, but may qualify for a penalty, at the judge's discretion. Because this contest focuses on Player Characters, an entry that is not technically allowed for a PC, but is viable as an NPC, counts as a legal entry, but may receive a minimum score at the judges' discretion.

Q: Creatures and templates with no listed LA are playable, right?
A: No. No listed LA is equivalent to LA: -. It is not suitable for PCs. If you use it, expect judges to look extremely disfavorably on it.

Q: So what's the deal with equipment, anyway?
A: There is no official policy on how much equipment you should list. Historically, judges have frowned upon "item dependent" builds, but unfortunately the definition of that has been applied to mean anything from builds that don't function if you remove one very specific item, to builds that so much as mention a particular weapon. Builds that don't list gear should be assumed to buy useful generics - items to boost their primary stats, cloaks of resistance, appropriate magical weapons and armor, and so forth. If a build would find particular items useful, they should be listed, but experience suggests that the more generic you keep them, the more favorably judges are likely to look upon them, as a build being shut down because the Thundering Bagpipes of Urist McTrumpetbritches were unavailable is considered a weakness. Similarly, requiring items in order to be able to qualify for things tends to be frowned upon.

Q: Do you have any other rules and guidelines on how to judge?
A: We do, actually, designed to try and avoid unpleasantness we've encountered in past contests. The things we've come up with to avoid repeating this are given below.

One Mistake, One Penalty

Judges are only allowed to penalise once for a given mistake. If someone messes up their skills and doesn't qualify for a PrC, ding them as hard as you like. Once. In one category. You don't then get to declare that because they didn't qualify for that PrC, they don't get those levels, and thus don't qualify for anything else. If Ranger is a common ingredient, ding them for Originality. Once. Don't also take off points for Two-Weapon-Fighting being a common ingredient.

Non-exhaustive list of examples:

Skills

Allowed:

Giving a penalty for miscalculating the number of skill points gained
Giving a penalty for not having enough ranks to meet a prerequisite
Increasing the harshness of a skill miscalculation penalty if it affects critical skills including prereqs

Not allowed:

Giving separate penalties for miscalculating skill points and for non-qualification where the non-qualification is solely caused by the miscalculation

Prereqs

Allowed:

Giving a penalty for not meeting prereqs
Scaling the penalty depending on how important the item that the build failed to qualify for is
Giving minimum score in UotSI for not qualifying for the SI
Not giving credit for (note: not the same as penalising for) tactics using feats or classes other than the SI that were not qualified for (but see below)

Not Allowed:

"Cascading" failures to qualify - declaring that because a build doesn't qualify for a feat, for example, it also doesn't qualify for anything using that feat as a prereq
Treating a build as having fewer levels than it does because of FtQ for classes

Other general things that are no longer allowed:

Penalizing because someone has chosen to build a tribute to an existing creative work
Deciding that a backstory has not met a fluff prerequisite well enough, or because its method of meeting it is "unrealistic". You may penalize if a fluff prereq is not addressed at all, but not for how well it is addressed.
Please don't base your scores off the scores of another judge.

Note that these are protections, not licenses. Deliberately taking a feat that you know you don't qualify for hoping to just suck up the judging penalty for a feat that you couldn't normally take is not okay, and may lead to your build being disqualified.

Q: Do you have any contest house rules or clarifications to ambiguous rules?
A: Some that have come up in previous contests and needed answers to:

All creatures are proficient with any natural weapons they may have or acquire.
Bonus feats that are granted even if you do not meet the prerequisites do not require you to meet the prerequisites in order to use.
Able Learner's benefit applies to the level you take it.
Weapons from soulmelds are considered to be magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming DR.
Unarmed Swordsage grants Improved Unarmed Strike at level 1.
Not finishing Savage Progression is subject to a penalty to Elegance
One dispute per entry. Submit disputes by PM to the Chair.
Ghostwalk ghost is banned
Gold, silver, and bronze are awarded regardless of ties (e.g., 2 silvers does not preclude bronze)
Spelltouched feats are legal and can be taken just like any other feat when you meet the prerequisites and have the feat slot available.
The Variant Classes in Unearthed Arcana are considered ACFs.

Q: Can I submit more than one entry?
A: You may submit up to two entries into a given competition.

Q: Can I make edits or revisions to my submission?
A: As long as it is before the dishes have been posted in the reveal, you are welcome to revise or make edits to your entry. Please do so by sending a new PM with the changes incorporated.

Q: What is the chair's stance on builds with an "adaptation/variants" section?
A: If chefs have adaptations or variations on the build they want to present, they are strongly encouraged to put them together in a single section in the entry writeup. If you have a large enough variation, consider something like this linked build (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25514412&postcount=108) which presents two similar concepts to be judged separately.
In a build where major adaptations or variants are presented that would alter the score, judges are free to score the entry based only on the "central" or "main" build.

The Viscount

2023-11-01, 09:17 PM

If you, like me, are still hankering for spooky season fun, check out the Halloween Showcase (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?661580-Halloween-Showcase-Special-Season-of-the-Witch) I was a part of!

Venger

2023-11-01, 09:30 PM

I can't wait. In to cook.

WhamBamSam

2023-11-01, 10:27 PM

Hype. I'm as in as in can be for this one.

Inevitability

2023-11-02, 04:17 AM

DEMONOLOGIST MENTIONED, LET'S GO PEOPLE

Anyway, I'm 100% in to cook with this sad little nar demonbinder wannabe; it's just so weird. Why yes, I would like to terminate my casting progression when I'm five or six levels in and start all over, thank you!

Paragon

2023-11-02, 07:52 AM

Just checkin but the prereq feats have all been updated to 3.5 so I'm guessing we're going with those and not the 3.0 ones right ?

Inevitability

2023-11-02, 08:07 AM

Just checkin but the prereq feats have all been updated to 3.5 so I'm guessing we're going with those and not the 3.0 ones right ?

Wait, where did Sacrificial Mastery get an update?

Venger

2023-11-02, 12:24 PM

Nowhere. I assume he's talking about malign spell focus, which got nerfed in champions of ruin, since evil brand's latest reprint in FC1 is functionally identical.

Paragon

2023-11-02, 12:37 PM

Wait, where did Sacrificial Mastery get an update?

Yeah mb I had 2 out of 3 in mind.

loky1109

2023-11-02, 02:00 PM

Don't have any ideas right now. Maybe shall judge.

H_H_F_F

2023-11-02, 06:21 PM

All my ideas are boring. Also not sure I'll have the time / mental energy. We'll see.

The Viscount

2023-11-02, 06:40 PM

Just checkin but the prereq feats have all been updated to 3.5 so I'm guessing we're going with those and not the 3.0 ones right ?

Evil Brand has been reprinted a few times in 3.5, but with the same effects, only different feats it is a prerequisite for. If it truly matters, yes, use the 3.5 version.

For Malign Spell Focus, use the the reprinted version in Champions of Ruin.

remetagross

2023-11-03, 04:55 AM

I have a really funny trick in mind, but it's pretty convoluted and I'm not sure it works as I want it.

The Viscount

2023-11-03, 04:50 PM

I have a really funny trick in mind, but it's pretty convoluted and I'm not sure it works as I want it.

Iron Chef in a single sentence.

H_H_F_F

2023-11-03, 08:45 PM

Just got an idea while falling asleep. I'll check if it works tomorrow.

H_H_F_F

2023-11-04, 05:13 PM

Okay, something might be starting to emerge. It's a freaking mess, I'll tell you that much.

H_H_F_F

2023-11-05, 06:25 AM

Bashing my head against the wall here. I can solve this ugly, or I can keep scouring sources in hopes that I find a way to make it beautiful.

How's everyone else doing?

Inevitability

2023-11-05, 06:38 AM

How's everyone else doing?

Frustrated by the realization that Sacrificial Mastery has a pointless 15 wisdom prerequisite, but making good progress on my most concrete idea so far and with enough half-formed thoughts that I'm confident I'll be able to get a second entry in.

FactualArcher

2023-11-05, 06:41 AM

I'm trying to get together a concrete idea, but so far I'm not having much luck. If I can't make anything interesting, I might judge.

H_H_F_F

2023-11-05, 03:45 PM

Frustrated by the realization that Sacrificial Mastery has a pointless 15 wisdom prerequisite

Someone's late to the party :smalltongue: Yeah, this feat sucks.

I'm trying to get together a concrete idea, but so far I'm not having much luck. If I can't make anything interesting, I might judge.

That'd be extremely welcome, of course, but I hope you manage to find an interesting angle!

Speaking of judgement: just a gentle reminder to y'all that this round of the Villainous Competition is still awaiting judgement. It's not too many entries, and they're really good, in my opinion. Even if you don't feel like judging, I highly recommend looking them over - and maybe dropping an HM for your favorite, if you're so inclined.

loky1109

2023-11-05, 04:53 PM

Speaking of judgement: just a gentle reminder to y'all that this round of the Villainous Competition is still awaiting judgement. It's not too many entries, and they're really good, in my opinion. Even if you don't feel like judging, I highly recommend looking them over - and maybe dropping an HM for your favorite, if you're so inclined.

Speaking of judgement #2: Junkyard Wars XLIII round (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?659277-Junkyard-Wars-XLIII-Natural-Weapons-Spellcasting-Druid) also needs judges. There slightly more entries, but they're really good in my eyes, too.

Tohron

2023-11-05, 04:56 PM

Is there any clear interpretation of what happens if a Wizard 17/Demonologist 3 casts Summon Monster IX and tries to summon a CE outsider? There obviously isn't a Summon Monster XI spell...

H_H_F_F

2023-11-05, 05:02 PM

Is there any clear interpretation of what happens if a Wizard 17/Demonologist 3 casts Summon Monster IX and tries to summon a CE outsider? There obviously isn't a Summon Monster XI spell...

I'd say nothing, honestly. Normal SM9 casting.

I get that there's an argument to be made that you'd go "overboard" and be able to summon 1d4+1 of the 9th level list, but that seems poorly supported. The whole 1d3 / 1d4+1 thing isn't a general rule you can extrapolate from; it's just an identical, specific ruling for each instance of summon X.

There is no Summon X 10+, so nothing happens. That's my view at least.

***

[EDIT], regarding my entry:

Got it!!

Haven't felt that rush of something this frustrating finally snapping into place in a while now. I still have a huge pile of work to do, but I think I solved my issues. It's going to get absolutely dunked on during judgement (and rightly so), but I think y'all will enjoy it.

H_H_F_F

2023-11-07, 07:44 PM

Entry sent!

I felt like this class was a tad too powerful for my tastes (I know, I know), and I feel like the way I approached it was different (worse?) than how I normally would, but I had a lot of fun. Looking forward to seeing what y'all come up with!

The Viscount

2023-11-08, 02:06 PM

Inevitability

2023-11-08, 02:11 PM

It's definitely stronger than most ingredients, and I often found as a chef I could more easily mine for inspiration in a more restrictive environment as well. I thought we were due a better ingredient after vengeance knight.

Vengeance Knight was a tier 6 class aimed at tier 4/5 classes; this is a tier 3 class that wants you to enter as a full caster. Yeah, it's 'more powerful' but it's a lot harder to justify why you even bothered to divert into the PrC. The fact that a tier 1 character could do all of its tricks better doesn't help.

I'd rather have the former than the latter, to be honest.

Nihilarian

2023-11-09, 12:51 AM

The third level spells requirement really deflates its power. You get nothing from Demonologist that you wouldn't get from staying wizard or sorcerer, while also getting spells above 4th/5th level.

The Viscount

2023-11-09, 11:28 AM

Vengeance Knight was a tier 6 class aimed at tier 4/5 classes; this is a tier 3 class that wants you to enter as a full caster. Yeah, it's 'more powerful' but it's a lot harder to justify why you even bothered to divert into the PrC. The fact that a tier 1 character could do all of its tricks better doesn't help.

I'd rather have the former than the latter, to be honest.

You got it, worst of the worst it is.

H_H_F_F

2023-11-09, 07:59 PM

You got it, worst of the worst it is.

I mean, we're still waiting on Dragon Samurai. That shoe's gotta drop sometime.

Nihilarian

2023-11-09, 10:32 PM

I mean, we're still waiting on Dragon Samurai. That shoe's gotta drop sometime.it really doesn't. There's no meat on that bone

Inevitability

2023-11-10, 02:42 AM

it really doesn't. There's no meat on that bone

I love the pointlessness of the miniatures handbook, they made a supplement 2/3rds the size of the PHB and what do people remember of it? A one-level dip, and a single class that everyone thinks came from Complete Divine.

That said... dragon samurai actually does seem fun, in a 'almost enough here to tantalizingly suggest it can be made useful' sort of way. But then again I recall asking if we were ever going to get a Ravager round, so maybe don't trust me to distinguish between 'barely enough to build with' and 'simply not a viable ingredient'.

Prime32

2023-11-10, 05:18 AM

I mean, we're still waiting on Dragon Samurai. That shoe's gotta drop sometime.
Dragon Samurai needs a ruling on how exactly its breath weapon stacking works, because there are interpretations where it can make the DFA's breath weapon hit twice as hard.

loky1109

2023-11-10, 05:29 AM

Dragon Samurai needs a ruling on how exactly its breath weapon stacking works, because there are interpretations where it can make the DFA's breath weapon hit twice as hard.

And there are where DFA's bw works 1/day.

H_H_F_F

2023-11-10, 06:05 AM

Dragon Samurai needs a ruling on how exactly its breath weapon stacking works, because there are interpretations where it can make the DFA's breath weapon hit twice as hard.

Leave it up to the judges. Let the Lord of Chaos rule.

loky1109

2023-11-10, 06:10 AM

Leave it up to the judges. Let the Lord of Chaos rule.
I can't agree. It's too open ended, I just can't build something with such... indeterminacy.

H_H_F_F

2023-11-10, 07:01 AM

I can't agree. It's too open ended, I just can't build something with such... indeterminacy.

Guess I should have made the text blue. I agree, of course.

loky1109

2023-11-10, 08:32 AM

Guess I should have made the text blue. I agree, of course.
Oh... I see.

Goldlizard

2023-11-10, 09:18 AM

I'll make a build

H_H_F_F

2023-11-10, 10:17 AM

remetagross

2023-11-10, 10:30 AM

My idea
1. Does not work
2. Has nothing to do with being a Demonologist in the first place

To the bin it is :smallbiggrin:

loky1109

2023-11-10, 10:33 AM

Good to have more chefs chiming in!

IIRC we have FactualArcher and loky as tentative judges, if they don't end up making anything. Anyone else entertaining that thought?

And how's building going for everyone, more generally?

I have two ideas, but only ideas for now. Maybe I'll make something if I'll have time after Monster Mash.

The Viscount

2023-11-10, 01:36 PM

I mean, we're still waiting on Dragon Samurai. That shoe's gotta drop sometime.

That shoe's steel-toed and made out of knives. I still have an ingredient or two that I think rival it in terms of badness. Now that we've done shining blade, Dragon Samurai is kind of the remaining boogeyman, the meme of ingredient so bad we have to do it. I don't object to using it as an ingredient if it is the will of the people. Nonetheless, I think that's a plum that will need some time to ripen.

H_H_F_F

2023-11-10, 02:33 PM

That shoe's steel-toed and made out of knives.

Literally made me laugh out loud, which hasn't been happening really since October 7th. Thank you.

Inevitability

2023-11-11, 03:00 AM

And how's building going for everyone, more generally?

Definitely struggled more than usual, but managed to come up with some ideas that felt like they weren't strictly outclassed by a sorcerer 20 and made some solid builds around them.

Beni-Kujaku

2023-11-11, 03:44 PM

Good to have more chefs chiming in!

IIRC we have FactualArcher and loky as tentative judges, if they don't end up making anything. Anyone else entertaining that thought?

And how's building going for everyone, more generally?

I will probably judge as well, if I find the time.

On that subject, we are still looking for a judge for Junkyard Wars (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?659277-Junkyard-Wars-XLIII-Natural-Weapons-Spellcasting-Druid/page2), so if someone has a few hours to give, that would be very much appreciated. Thanks!

I love the pointlessness of the miniatures handbook, they made a supplement 2/3rds the size of the PHB and what do people remember of it? A one-level dip, and a single class that everyone thinks came from Complete Divine.

Now, now, Warmage and the origin of swift actions have to account for something.

Inevitability

2023-11-11, 04:20 PM

Now, now, Warmage and the origin of swift actions have to account for something.

I'm trying to think whether I've ever seen a warmage build outside of the Rainbow Warsnake and coming up blank.

...okay, pulled up the sheet, in all the competition's years there have been two warmage submissions. One in the dragon disciple round (who then finished off with talon of tiamat) and one in the pyrokineticist round where it was used as part of a swordsage JPM. They respectively placed fifteenth (out of 23) and third (out of 9).

The pyrokineticist mostly used warmage for gish reasons (armored casting) because JPM forces you into a blasty role anyway, the dragon disciple was seemingly doing something Krau sigil-related to exploit the 'when the warmage gains access to a new level of spells' wording. Not exactly uses that instantly convince me warmage was the best tool for the job here.

Also, looking through the sheet it seems my name's misspelled as 'Inevitabillity' in several places. I've just got the one L!

Looking at some other obscure and terrible base classes:

-Seven truenamers
-Four divine minds
-Two mountebanks
-Two commoners.
-One expert
-Six lurks
-Four sohei (like 80% sure that's the correct plural)
-Seven nobles
-Seven CW samurais
-Two healers

I don't consider them obscure or terrible, but apparently there were only four favored souls in the entire competition, which strikes me as shockingly few. I get that war domain cleric does 99% of the job better, but still!

Erudite really shocked me by having only one use; is it the class's reputation for cheese?

Also, I didn't see any DCS mystics: are those the only base PC class that remains unused in Iron Chef?

H_H_F_F

2023-11-11, 04:52 PM

Also, looking through the sheet it seems my name's misspelled as 'Inevitabillity' in several places. I've just got the one L!

Thanks for notifying, I'll fix it when I finish updating last round's judgement.

Goldlizard

2023-11-11, 05:45 PM

That shoe's steel-toed and made out of knives. I still have an ingredient or two that I think rival it in terms of badness.

Waiting to pull out the Bereft, eh?

H_H_F_F

2023-11-11, 05:46 PM

Waiting to pull out the Bereft, eh?

Why would you even say that

The Viscount

2023-11-11, 06:16 PM

Thanks for notifying, I'll fix it when I finish updating last round's judgement.

I've fixed it. Sorry about that, Inevitability.

Waiting to pull out the Bereft, eh?

If that class weren't 5 levels it would be on the list so fast.

MultitudeMan

2023-11-12, 02:26 AM

. . . one in the pyrokineticist round where it was used as part of a swordsage JPM . . .

The pyrokineticist mostly used warmage for gish reasons (armored casting) because JPM forces you into a blasty role anyway . . .

I just noticed that the spreadsheet has Warmage 2, Swordsage 4, whereas the build has Swordsage 2, Warmage 4.

WhamBamSam

2023-11-12, 02:27 AM

I basically have one in the chamber for Dragon Samurai that I'm pretty happy with.

Paragon

2023-11-12, 02:28 AM

.
If that class weren't 5 levels it would be on the list so fast.

Why are 5 level classes frowned upon for some reason ? It's all the more difficult to capture the essence of the class while having more options to optimize it I feel

H_H_F_F

2023-11-12, 03:09 AM

I just noticed that the spreadsheet has Warmage 2, Swordsage 4, whereas the build has Swordsage 2, Warmage 4.

Thanks, fixed.

I basically have one in the chamber for Dragon Samurai that I'm pretty happy with.

Cheater.

Why are 5 level classes frowned upon for some reason ? It's all the more difficult to capture the essence of the class while having more options to optimize it I feel

I tend to agree that form most classes, 5 levels doesn't offer enough oomph, and doesn't force you enough to go all in on the class. Sure, you still might make it all about some ability - but it'd be far more likely to support other classes than vice-versa.

As long as we haven't come close to exhausting appropriate 10 level classes, I don't think there's a real reason to rush to 5 level ones.

If we're lucky enough to be able to maintain this momentum for many more years, I'd personally add classes from usually banned sources (without lifting the ban for other materials, unless required) before going for non-10 level classes.

The Viscount

2023-11-12, 09:10 AM

Why are 5 level classes frowned upon for some reason ? It's all the more difficult to capture the essence of the class while having more options to optimize it I feel

Tradition is a large part of it. As said, a 10 level class represents a more significant investment with some possible sacrifice, whereas for a 5 level class it's not really a difficult decision to finish it. There's also usually more features to use in a 10 level class than in a 5 level one. It's not a hard ban (we have done a 5 level class in the past) but I prefer sticking with 10 level classes.

Paragon

2023-11-15, 03:16 AM

Hello everyone,

My entry's in and I hope everyone else is doing well.
For those who're done, how was your experience cooking with this monstrosity.

H_H_F_F

2023-11-15, 03:56 AM

Hello
My entry's in and I hope everyone else is doing well.
For those who're done, how was your experience cooking with this monstrosity.

Exhausting.

But fun.

Inevitability

2023-11-15, 04:19 AM

For those who're done, how was your experience cooking with this monstrosity.

A long string of 'hm, sorcerer 20 would do this better', followed by some very out-there builds getting brainstormed, a couple eureka moments, and a pair of submissions much closer to normalcy than what I initially thought I'd need to resort to in order to justify demonologist. Great fun in the end, though!

As has been the case with past rounds, I just kind of assembled a huge pile of things that looked like they'd have synergy with the SI, figured out which of those would have synergy with each other (or at the very least be enabled by the same build), and glued them together into a single sorta-coherent build.

--------------

I actually have a third build that I'd probably have submitted if I'd come up with it earlier, featuring a wild low-level progression, but there's a very notorious optimization trick at its core and I feel like it'd get hit hard in Elegance. I'll post the stub after the reveal.

loky1109

2023-11-15, 09:33 AM

Hello everyone,

My entry's in and I hope everyone else is doing well.
For those who're done, how was your experience cooking with this monstrosity.

I have pretty interesting idea, but it's 0% done.

The Viscount

2023-11-15, 07:44 PM

I have pretty interesting idea, but it's 0% done.

Also a very good quote for the Iron Chef experience.

H_H_F_F

2023-11-16, 05:22 AM

Very hyped for the reveal that's definitely happening in 3 days and will not be postponed.

loky1109

2023-11-16, 08:24 AM

Very hyped for the reveal that's definitely happening in 3 days and will not be postponed.
It's funny. )))

The Viscount

2023-11-16, 01:04 PM

Very hyped for the reveal that's definitely happening in 3 days and will not be postponed.

Just for that, reveal is now on Christmas. Seeya later.

Paragon

2023-11-16, 05:59 PM

Wouldn't shock me at all

FactualArcher

2023-11-18, 07:40 AM

I'm not going to get in an entry, so I'm going to officially sign up as a judge. I can hopefully work fairly quickly. I should have my rubric up this weekend and hopefully will get started on judging soon after the entries come out.

H_H_F_F

2023-11-18, 08:18 AM

Thanks, FactualArcher!

The Viscount

2023-11-18, 11:51 AM

Thank you for your generosity. The competition lives on our judges.

FactualArcher

2023-11-18, 01:29 PM

Here is my judging rubric:

Judging notes: This rubric is heavily based off of the rubric I used last VC round as that didn’t seem to cause many problems. I’m going to be a little more flexible with the questions, meaning if you blow me away in one, you can score more than the +1, and, if you do extremely poorly in one question, you could lose more than 1 point. I don’t expect this to happen much, but if you do something really cool/crazy I want to be able to fully reward it.

Starts at 3 by default, will be adjusted up/down from there
How expected is your race and any templates, if used?
How expected are your non SI classes?
How expected are your non prereq feats, spells, and skills?
Do you have a unique and interesting trick/tactic?

Can you adequately fulfill whatever role you choose at most levels in a mid-op party?
Can you do your main tricks throughout the length of a typical adventuring day?
Can you help at all outside of combat, by healing, tracking, divining or what have you?
Do you have the defenses expected of your role, or are you more or less vulnerable than would be expected?

Starts at 5, questions are up to -1 each, automatic 1 if most of the entry is illegal.
Is everything legal?
Does anything rely on ambiguous wording?
Does your build keep a relatively low number of classes and templates? I’m generally fairly lenient on this, but more than 1 single level dip or more than 5 classes/templates will likely cause penalties.
Is your build extremely item reliant, or can you run on a normal distribution and kinds of magic items?
Is your entry neat and all sources are listed?

Does Demonologist give you interesting abilities you couldn't get without it?
Do you have any interesting tricks based on Demonologist's class abilities?
Are most class abilities used with reasonable frequency by your character?
Do you qualify legally and in a timely fashion?

H_H_F_F

2023-11-18, 01:37 PM

loky1109

2023-11-18, 01:55 PM

It's funny. )))

Joking aside, I hope finish my entry within next 19 hours (it's within deadline, isn't it?), but maybe I'll need one-two-three hours extension.

UPD: It looks I done.

Paragon

2023-11-19, 09:07 AM

Will we have a reveal on the first deadline 😱

H_H_F_F

2023-11-19, 11:18 AM

Will we have a reveal on the first deadline 😱

Usually when it seems like that, it turns out someone DMd the Viscount asking for an extension.

Never give up hope, though.

The Viscount

2023-11-19, 10:01 PM

Usually when it seems like that, it turns out someone DMd the Viscount asking for an extension.

https://i.redd.it/71qdk9clv9s21.jpg

Work took longer than I expected.

Reveal begins now! (Please hold off on posting until the all clear)

The Viscount

2023-11-19, 10:03 PM

Maybe it's not better to light a candle after all

Darcy Covenant

https://i.postimg.cc/286VTfc9/Candles-Demons.jpg

CE Ice Gnome Bard 5 / Wild Soul 2 / Bard +1 / Demonologist 4 / Sublime Chord 2 / Candle Caster 1 / Demonologist +5

Say, if thou'dst rather hear it from our mouths,
Or from our master's?

At the edge of the tundra stands a little hut.

To approach or even notice it is no simple feat, for howling blizzards surround it in winter, and dense mounds of fog gather round it come spring. Wandering through the haze, you may see shadowy shapes, suggesting some stumbling soul - such sights should seldom be trusted. The dead walk 'round that hut, stripped of fat and muscle, carried forth by hate alone. And not mere human dead - some have seen the walking bones of boars, great wolves, even the horned remnants of fiends.

Should you reach the hut, the door is answered by a thin young girl, hair long and greasy, clothes so stained with blood and grime that their color cannot be told. She is the lowest of the low, a firstborn sold in exchange for some profane favor, nameless but for her brand of ownership. Nevertheless, you should treat her with the greatest of respect, as if you were speaking to a mighty king, and ask thrice before entering.

Once you do so, you will find the hut stocked with all manner of things - books, vials of bubbling liquid, large kettles of soup, tapestries, rarity-filled cupboards. Most of all there are candles everywhere, filling each corner of the hut with light. There will be a great grey wolf lying in a corner, and a black bat sleeping in the eaves - these too you should treat like honored lords. Introduce yourself to them before taking the offered seat.

The girl will bring you many things then, but you must reject them all, even the merest cup of soup, and only ask to see the kindly ones. She will ask you why, and you must claim you wish to offer them your gifts (you did bring gifts, right?). At this, she will disappear down a trapdoor, and remain away for a while, though you should not assume you are now alone.

Then the girl will return, and kneel besides the trapdoor - in this, you should follow her example - and at last will your hosts show themselves.

First is Grandmother Drab, eight feet tall and wrinkled as a prune, wearing naught but bracelets made out of her own long-lost teeth. Her left eye never opens, which she evens out by never closing her right. She delights in speaking in a whisper, then shouting without warning and startling all that moved their ears closer - other than this mischief, she will do little harm. Her you should bring offerings of strong liquor.

Second is Auntie Olga, ten feet tall, muscular, turnip-faced, and dressed in the furs of polar bears that died by her calloused hands. She is boisterous, cruel, and easily distracted by passing fancies. A five-foot trunk serves her as a walking stick, though she chiefly uses it to break the fingers of those that displease her. Gifts to her should take the form of ancient tomes and pleasing art.

And third is Little Eimear, who in defiance of her name stands nine feet tall. She will appear in many guises, all of them flame-haired and shockingly beautiful. She enjoys wasting her supplicants' time, posing riddles with no answer and ordering the performance of pointless tasks. Gemstones are the only gift she accepts - although she delights in the taste of human flesh, she trusts none but herself to butcher and prepare it.

The three will spend their time tormenting you, taking breaks to gorge themselves on the contents of the pots or light new candles, and at last demand you state your reason for coming. It is here you may, at last, make your request of them. Perhaps you wish a curse upon your enemies, a glimpse of the future, a scrap of ancient lore. Perhaps you wish to sell your soul, and seek for them to mediate, for they know the names of many demons. Whatever your desire, act on it, then swiftly leave. Accept no offers to remain for the night, even if this forces you to camp out in the wilds.

To close, permit me to share one final warning. Should any of the three ever ask you which of the hut's witches is most powerful, apologize profusely, proclaim your foolishness, refuse to pick no matter how much they insist. Eventually, they will relent, mock your cowardice, and move on - this, I know, is the only means of survival, for none who have returned from the hut have reported doing anything else.

And yet - despite all appearances, I cannot help but wonder. While all evidence suggests that every answer is wrong, and that choosing one witch simply invites the wrath of the two others, I would find such a trick unbecoming of them - their other games are cruel, prideful, and blasphemous, but never misleading, and one who is polite beyond a fault and rather tolerant of pain should otherwise never fear for his life.

So might their deadly question, however impossibly, have an answer after all?

Round about the cauldron go;
In the poison'd entrails throw...

Point buy: 10/12/12/14/14/16
Racial: 8/12/14/14/14/16
ASIs: +1 wisdom (4 HD), +4 charisma (8,12,16,20 HD)
Final: 8/12/14/14/15/20

Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn, and cauldron bubble.

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features

1st
Gnome Fey Bard 1
+0
+0
+2
+2
32: Bluff +2 (2), Concentration +4 (4), Craft (Candlemaking) +2 (2), Hide +4 (4), Knowledge (Arcana) +4 (4), Knowledge (Nature) +2 (2), Knowledge (Planes) +2 (2), Listen +4 (4), Perform (Sing) +4 (4), Profession (Astrologer) +2 (2), Spellcraft +2 (2)
Evil Brand
Animal Companion, Bardic Music, Counter Fear, Fascinate, Gnome Cantrips, Nature Sense, Wild Empathy

2nd
Bard 2
+1
+0
+3
+3
8: Bluff +1 (3), Concentration 4, Craft (Candlemaking) +1 (3), Hide +1 (5), Knowledge (Arcana) +1 (5), Knowledge (Nature) +1 (3), Knowledge (Planes) 2, Listen +1 (5), Perform (Sing) +1 (5), Profession (Astrologer) 2, Spellcraft +1 (3)
-
-

3rd
Bard 3
+2
+1
+3
+3
8: Bluff +1 (4), Concentration +1 (5), Craft (Candlemaking) 3, Hide +1 (6), Knowledge (Arcana) +1 (6), Knowledge (Nature) +1 (4), Knowledge (Planes) 2, Listen +1 (6), Perform (Sing) +1 (6), Profession (Astrologer) +1 (3), Spellcraft 3
Malign Spell Focus
-

4th
Bard 4
+3
+1
+4
+4
8: Bluff 4, Concentration 5, Craft (Candlemaking) +1 (4), Hide 6, Knowledge (Arcana) +1 (7), Knowledge (Nature) 4, Knowledge (Planes) +2 (4), Listen +1 (7), Perform (Sing) +1 (7), Profession (Astrologer) +1 (4), Spellcraft +1 (4)
-
Resist Nature's Lure

5th
Bard 5
+3
+1
+4
+4
8: Bluff +1 (5), Concentration 5, Craft (Candlemaking) +2 (6), Hide 6, Knowledge (Arcana) +1 (8), Knowledge (Nature) 4, Knowledge (Planes) 4, Listen +1 (8), Perform (Sing) +1 (8), Profession (Astrologer) +2 (6), Spellcraft 4
-
-

6th
Wild Soul 1
+3
+1
+4
+6
4: Bluff 5, Concentration +1 (6), Craft (Candlemaking) 6, Hide 6, Knowledge (Arcana) 8, Knowledge (Nature) 4, Knowledge (Planes) +2 (6), Listen 8, Perform (Sing) 8, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Spellcraft +1 (5)
Sacrificial Mastery
Seelie courtier (Unseelie), spontaneous spells (1st—3rd)

7th
Wild Soul 2
+4
+1
+4
+7
4: Bluff 5, Concentration +1 (7), Craft (Candlemaking) 6, Hide 6, Knowledge (Arcana) 8, Knowledge (Nature) 4, Knowledge (Planes) +2 (8), Listen 8, Perform (Sing) 8, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Spellcraft +1 (6)
-
Seelie Bond (immune to sleep), Summon Seelie Ally

8th
Bard 6
+5
+2
+5
+8
8: Bluff +2 (7), Concentration 7, Craft (Candlemaking) 6, Hide 6, Knowledge (Arcana) 8, Knowledge (Nature) 4, Knowledge (Planes) 8, Listen +3 (11), Perform (Sing) +3 (11), Profession (Astrologer) 6, Spellcraft 6
-
Suggestion

9th
Demonologist 1
+5
+2
+5
+10
6: Bluff 7, Concentration +2 (9), Craft (Candlemaking) 6, Hide 6, Knowledge (Arcana) +1 (9), Knowledge (Nature) 4, Knowledge (Planes) 8, Listen +1cc (11.5), Perform (Sing) 11, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sense Motive +2 (2), Spellcraft 6
Versatile Spellcaster
Charm Demon

10th
Demonologist 2
+6
+2
+5
+11
6: Bluff +1 (8), Concentration +2 (11), Craft (Candlemaking) 6, Hide 6, Knowledge (Arcana) +1 (10), Knowledge (Nature) 4, Knowledge (Planes) 8, Listen +1cc (12), Perform (Sing) 11, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sense Motive +1 (3), Spellcraft 6
-
Quasit Familiar

11th
Demonologist 3
+6
+3
+6
+11
6: Bluff +1 (9), Concentration +2 (13), Craft (Candlemaking) 6, Hide 6, Knowledge (Arcana) +1 (11), Knowledge (Nature) 4, Knowledge (Planes) 8, Listen +1cc (12.5), Perform (Sing) 11, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sense Motive +1 (4), Spellcraft 6
-
Summoning Mastery +2

12th
Demonologist 4
+7
+3
+6
+12
6: Bluff 9, Concentration +2 (15), Craft (Candlemaking) 6, Hide 6, Knowledge (Arcana) +2 (13), Knowledge (Nature) 4, Knowledge (Planes) 8, Listen +1cc (13), Perform (Sing) 11, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sense Motive +1 (5), Spellcraft 6
Great Fortitude
Resistances

13th
Sublime Chord 1
+7
+3
+6
+14
6: Bluff 9, Concentration 15, Craft (Candlemaking) 6, Hide 6, Knowledge (Arcana) 13, Knowledge (Nature) 4, Knowledge (Planes) 8, Knowledge (Religion) +4 (4), Listen 13, Perform (Sing) +2 (13), Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sense Motive 5, Spellcraft 6
-
Bardic Music

14th
Sublime Chord 2
+8
+3
+6
+15
6: Bluff 9, Concentration 15, Craft (Candlemaking) 6, Hide 6, Knowledge (Arcana) 13, Knowledge (Nature) 4, Knowledge (Planes) 8, Knowledge (Religion) +5 (9), Listen 13, Perform (Sing) +1 (14), Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sense Motive 5, Spellcraft 6
-
Song of Arcane Power

15th
Candle Caster 1
+8
+3
+6
+17
4: Bluff 9, Concentration +2 (17), Craft (Candlemaking) 6, Hide 6, Knowledge (Arcana) 13, Knowledge (Nature) 4, Knowledge (Planes) 8, Knowledge (Religion) 9, Listen 13, Perform (Sing) 14, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sense Motive 5, Spellcraft +2 (8)
Fade Into Violence
Scribe Candle

16th
Demonologist 5
+8
+3
+6
+17
6: Bluff +1 (10), Concentration 17, Craft (Candlemaking) 6, Hide 6, Intimidate +2 (2), Knowledge (Arcana) 13, Knowledge (Nature) 4, Knowledge (Planes) 8, Knowledge (Religion) +3 (12), Listen 13, Perform (Sing) 14, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sense Motive 7, Spellcraft 8
-
Poison Immunity

17th
Demonologist 6
+9
+4
+7
+18
6: Bluff +1 (11), Concentration 17, Craft (Candlemaking) 6, Hide 6, Intimidate +4 (6) Knowledge (Arcana) 13, Knowledge (Nature) 4, Knowledge (Planes) 8, Knowledge (Religion) 12, Listen 13, Perform (Sing) 14, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sense Motive +1 (8), Spellcraft 8
-
Summoning Mastery +3

18th
Demonologist 7
+9
+4
+7
+18
6: Bluff +1 (12), Concentration 17, Craft (Candlemaking) 6, Hide 6, Intimidate +2 (8), Knowledge (Arcana) 13, Knowledge (Nature) 4, Knowledge (Planes) 8, Knowledge (Religion) 12, Listen 13, Perform (Sing) 14, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sense Motive +3 (11), Spellcraft 8
Craft Wondrous Item
Hold Demon

19th
Demonologist 8
+10
+4
+7
+19
6: Bluff +3 (15), Concentration 17, Craft (Candlemaking) 6, Hide 6, Intimidate 8, Knowledge (Arcana) 13, Knowledge (Nature) 4, Knowledge (Planes) 8, Knowledge (Religion) 12, Listen 13, Perform (Sing) 14, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sense Motive +3 (14), Spellcraft 8
-
Telepathy

20th
Demonologist 9
+10
+5
+8
+19
6: Bluff +2 (17), Concentration 17, Craft (Candlemaking) 6, Hide 6, Intimidate 8, Knowledge (Arcana) 13, Knowledge (Nature) 4, Knowledge (Planes) 8, Knowledge (Religion) +1 (13), Listen 13, Perform (Sing) 14, Profession (Astrologer) 6, Sense Motive +3 (17), Spellcraft 8
-
Summoning Master +4

Languages: Common, Gnome, Draconic, Giant

She knows thy thought:
Hear her speech, but say thou nought.

Spells known are listed in order learned.

Bard Spells per Day

Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd

1st
2
-
-
-

2nd
3
1
-
-

3rd
3
2
-
-

4th
3
3
1
-

5th
3
4
2
-

7th
3
4
3
-

8th
3
4
3
1

20th
3
5
3
1

Bard spells known:
0: Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Prestidigitation, Light, Summon Instrument
1: Charm Person, Hypnotism, Improvisation, Extract Drug
2: Dimension Leap, Glitterdust, Bridge of Sound, Mask of the Ideal
3: Curse of the Putrid Husk, Summon Monster III

Demonologist Spells per Day

Level
1st
2nd
3rd
4th

9th
2
-
-
-

10th
2
2
-
-

11th
3
2
2
-

12th
3
3
2
2

16th
4
3
3
2

17th
4
4
3
3

18th
4
4
4
3

19th
5
4
4
4

20th
6
5
5
4

Sublime Chord Spells per Day:

Level
4th
5th
6th

13th
3
1
-

14th
3
2
-

15th
4
2
1

20th
4
3
1

Sublime Chord spells known:
4: Liquid Pain, Modify Memory, Voice of the Dragon, Celerity
5: Summon Monster V, Fiendform
6: Halaster's Fetch III

Wild Soul substitution list:
1: Lesser Confusion
2: Detect Thoughts
3: Poison

Final CL is 9 for demonologist and 10 for bard and sublime chord.

Eye of newt and toe of frog,
Wool of bat and tongue of dog...

Wolf:
The wolf is a 6th-level animal companion, giving it +4 HD, +4 natural armor, +2 strength and dexterity, Link, Share Spells, and Evasion. For its 4 extra skill ranks, it invests in spot.

The HD entitles it to two feats. Fey Heritage and Fey Presence are decently flavorful and quite strong, though if that gets too silly to your liking, you can always be boring and give it something like Open-Minded (for a total of 5 ranks in listen and the rest in spot) and Quick Reconnaitor.

Quasit:
This quasit's alternate form option are bat and wolf.

The quasit is a 9th-level familiar, giving it +5 natural armor, improved evasion, share spells, empathetic link, and the ability to deliver touch spells. It can also speak with us in a non-language (cool until we get telepathy) and speak with other animals of its kind (possibly letting it talk to bats or wolves? If so, it'll serve as an intermediary between us and our other companion.

Pour in sow's blood, that hath eaten
Her nine farrow; grease that's sweaten
From the murderer's gibbet throw
Into the flame.

ECL 5
We trade Inspire Courage (lackluster at low levels) for a wolf companion (outperforms the fighter at low levels), and we grab the gnome substitution level to let the party (including anything we summon) reroll saves against fear. It also gives us a free cantrip, and being an ice gnome lets us talk to our wolf (an arctic animal per frostburn) 1/day. Anyway, between good social skills, great Listen, Wild Empathy, and all sorts of knowledges, I think we're a pretty well-rounded character!

Spells-wise: Charm Person + Hypnotism is a busted combo early-game, Grease is great as always, Glitterdust is a huge debuff, Dimension Leap gets you out of dangerous grapples, and Bridge of Sound is a fun little mini-Wall of Force.

ECL 10
We're a fey bard, so we might as well head through Wild Soul and grab some extra spells (Lesser Confusion, Detect Thoughts, and Poison, eventually Endless Slumber and Mass Suggestion also) that all our spellcasting progressions can make use of. Our final bard level gives us Suggestion, allowing for six attempts per day at manipulating someone with no obvious casting going on. Curse of the Putrid Husk gets a save boost from us being a gnome and Malign Spell Focus, making it a ranged save-or-die roughly on par with what other casters have by now.

Versatile Spellcaster is worth pointing out for how it interacts with demonologist. As written, the feat lets us sacrifice two spell slots (from any class) to cast a spell we know one level higher (from any class). This allows us to use our bard slots to cast undercosted demonologist spells, or channel demonologist slots into the utility-focused bard list when the situation calls for it. This means that though we don't have too many spell slots, we enjoy a lot of flexibility in how we use them.

Anyway, we're in demonologist, we have a quasit, so enjoy 1/week Commune and an invisible bat-shaped scout that inherits your hide ranks.

ECL 15
Our levels in Sublime Chord help in several ways. Song of Arcane Power can boost any of our three casting classes in exchange for one of our seven bardic music attempts (which we have few better outlets for). We also get Voice of the Dragon and Modify Memory for some rather capable social interaction. More important are the level 5 spells we get: Summon Monster V is currently getting us CE monsters from the 7th-level list (arrow demons, fiendish girallons, fiendish giant octopi, plus annis hags and will-o-wisps thanks to wild soul).

Fiendform lets us turn into 'any fiendish creature, demon, or devil that can be summoned by a summon monster I, II, III, or IV spell'. Straightforwardly, we can summon a fiendish elasmosaurus, huge monstrous spider, or giant constrictor snake with those spells - can we turn into those? I see no reason why not. And while we're doing that, we might as well share the spell with our familiar and animal companion, putting three huge bodies on the field with a single standard action.

Speaking of huge bodies, Fade into Violence lets us redirect any foe that's coming a bit too close for comfort, sending him off to fight one of our summoned bodies or, at worst, our animal companion. Its benefit is lost if you attack any opponent or target one with a spell, but Summon Monster spam should be just fine - and thankfully Demonologist wants us to use that spell above all others! The feat similarly helps us get those Summon Monsters off in the first place, because people can't simply run up to you and hit you while you're casting (time it right, and the distracted foe might actually physically block anyone else who wants to get to you).

Candle Caster might seem a bit random, but Sublime Chord 3 is essentially a dead level and out of all the PrCs with first-level casting advancement, this one adds a meaningful (and flavorful!) dimension to our character. Consider that demonologist has an incredibly underleveled spell list, and you can make scrolls of Bestow Greater Curse for 200 GP (4 x 4 x 25 / 2) instead of the 1600 (8 x 16 x 25 / 2) that a sorcerer would pay. Note how your low CL is an advantage here! We'll also spin a little trick around it that'll become clear later. The prerequisite feat is almost something we'd want to take anyway, given how bad our Fortitude would be otherwise.

Lastly, consider Halaster's Fetch III. It functions 'as summon monster III' (including the expanded list) except it's (calling) instead of (summoning) and the summoned creature remains after the spell ends (though it becomes free-willed). For now, it's getting us large vipers to milk for free poison, small elementals to use as scouts, or dretches to put to work as free labor (all with some gentle prodding, which we have plenty of bard spells and charisma for - Demonologist's Charm Demon works great with Hypnosis). More importantly, this spell can fetch us sacrifices. Even if fiendish animals don't count for the baleful powers, something like a redcap is a living intelligent ensouled native of the material plane - there's got to be a dark god out there willing to take them. If we get our hands on a thinaun weapon, this also gives us a nice steady supply of souls to launder into dretches, nightmares, or bargaining chips.

(Note that per the rules for summoning (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning), 'When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells'. This keeps us from the coolest bits of summoning demons, so getting to subvert the rules is really nice)

But redcaps are good for more than that! By feeding one other called creatures, we can grow them all the way up to 20 HD, CR 12, 30 strength threats. Make sure to frequently use Hypnotism on them while they're still young and pliable, and you can grow yourself a small army of loyal servants. The diplomacy check to turn them friendly before Hypnotism-indoctrination gets a +2 boost from Wild Soul, +2 from Evil Brand, +5 from our charisma, +4 from synergy bonuses, and possibly +5 from Improvisation, +4 from Mask of the Ideal, and +10 from voice of the dragon, so even without ranks we're looking at... +32, which turns hostile creatures friendly 90% of the time (and 'listen to me for a minute' is a fine command to give summoned fodder). A masterwork tool covers the last bit of that gap, as does a mere +4 charisma item.

Other fun ways to ensure loyal servants: get them hooked on drugs! Extract Drug is a 1st-level spell and gives you access to stuff with a High addiction rating, while liquid pain (easily fueled by, you guessed it, called creatures) is a 4th-level cast that gives you a drug with an addiction rating of Extreme (though the fact that it takes 24 hours to produce one dose basically forces you to expose its victims to withdrawal). Lastly, even mundane intimidation will often be enough against the low-HD summoned creatures, especially if you only need them for a single task.

Note that Magic Circle Against Evil works on any 'nongood called creature', not just those conjured by Planar Binding and its ilk. That means we can call a creature into the magic circle, briefly have it act under our control but without the restrictions that summoning places on summoning/teleportation/XP-cost abilities/duration, and then leave it imprisoned at our mercy (longterm, it either goes off to the sacrifice altar annex butcher's shop, it gets tortured for liquid pain, or you turn it into a minion). Bestow Curse can be applied to cripple your prisoners, or you can just physically maim them. Calling spells are great, but why would you stoop to the level of fair deals? What are we, Lawful Evil?

Before I forget, note that all those sacrifices can earn you dark craft GP and XP, and liquid pain can be used as an XP substitute also, so those candle caster scrolls become virtually free if you can spare a sacrifice every now and then.

ECL 20
All the previous tricks get better as we get bigger and stronger summons. Halaster's Fetch III is now grabbing us things from the 7th-level summon monster list, and it's worth noting that there's no Halaster's Fetch VII. Grab three Annis Hags (not callable otherwise), have them form a coven, and enjoy access to 3/day Mind Blank, Control Weather, Mirage Arcana, Veil, Dream, even Vision.

Or go slightly smaller and summon an Artaaglith (Ghostwalk) using the 6th-level list. In the first few rounds after appearing, it can Desecrate an area and raise you an undead of up to 20 HD (fiendish monstrous spiders or girallons are great targets, or windscythes for flying brutes) and give it some brief verbal command. Keeping the Artaaglith out of earshot will keep the skeleton working on whatever repetitive task you need it for - if you want to be really thorough you can even bury the demon alive while it's still under your control. Those artaagliths you don't immure will be able to prepare any cleric spell of 3rd or lower level, massively expanding your operation's versatility.

Or grab a Babau, finally free to use its at-will Greater Teleport. Here is why we went candle caster instead of just getting Scribe Scroll - the former comes with a built-in delay. We can light a candle as a standard action, hand it to our babau, send it away, and at the start of our next turn unleash any spell we know at any location in the world. Bestow Greater Curse is probably the most potent attack to unleash that way, though given that a candle spell 'works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way' we can probably access our up-list Summon Monsters this way too - a Wastrilith is a lot less scary to summon when it appears on the other side of the world and has no idea where you are. And long-range Detect Thoughts is just great intel gathering.

Summon Monster V now uses the list of IX, giving you access to bebiliths (great grappler, immobilizing web) and adarus (buff all your evil servants nearby while debuffing nonevil ones).

We get poison immunity and energy resistance to help compensate for our meager Fortitude and Reflex. Poison Immunity is also helpful while harvesting the venom of called creatures and applying it to our allies' weapons (a mere summoner couldn't really make this work). Telepathy lets us communicate with all we summon more easily, while also downplaying our role as the mastermind behind all these fiends.

Fiendform is up to Babaus and Vrocks, so we now have access to a flying form with five natural attacks, a stunning screech, and at-will Telekinesis, Mirror Image, and Greater Teleport. If the situation calls for AoE damage, you can even join up with your familiar and wolf and use Dance of Ruin that way, though I don't see this coming up much.

Our Knowledge (Religion) boosted by Improvisation and Demoncall is now up to 13+2+5+10+4= +34, so we can safely make a check to obtain 105 dark XP per sacrifice. With two batches of 1d4+1 redcaps, that's an average of 735 XP generated per day. After a few days of killing, you should have enough to construct a Pain Extractor, letting you move your high-value minions up to properly addictive drugs and giving you a potent bargaining chip when dealing with evil outsiders. You'll still have to provide the GP yourself, but agony goes for 200 GP a pop, so the machine should cover its own costs within half a year or so.

(all this industrialized evil might cause possessing fiends to arise in the area, per BoVD page 36, but Demonologist gives us two spells to swiftly deal with them, at which point they can be communicated with telepathically and pressed into service as yet another resource)

Around this time, your base has effectively become fully self-sufficient, so to reduce flight risk you might as well seal it off completely from the outside world. Your cleric demons can take care of food and water needs, ventillation can be partially covered by air vents (if necessary with fan-waving skeletons placed throughout) and partially by Ease of Breath spells, with Fiendform as a panic button if you really need to stop breathing for the next few minutes. Having one cleric walk around with plentiful Create Water spells and a Water Breathing is another good safeguard. Gold is obtained via liquid pain generation and putting skeletons to work on mining tasks (or perhaps assembly lines), XP comes from sacrifices.

Poison and elemental immunity put themselves to use in a surprising way here: they protect you from attempts to root you out by simply pouring boiling oil / burning tar / lava / poison gas down the few remaining ventillation shafts. Sure, the hags and redcaps will probably die, as will any uncontrolled undead you can't quickly drag into an airless panic room, but those are acceptable losses - you can always summon more.

And really, what could be more demonologist than that?

How now, you secret, black, and midnight hags!
What is't you do?

Demonologist allows us to get a ton more power out of Fiendform and Halaster's Fetch. The things we do with the former, a full caster can only replicate with Shapechange (notoriously one of the most busted spells in the game), while the latter requires Gate's XP-draining mode.

We get an array of utility comparable, or even superior to, that of a sorcerer. We resolve the tension between Charm/Hold Demon and Summoning Mastery by interacting with demons in a way that benefits from both class features. We use the sacrifice rules to get free crafting XP, and then pivot to a strategy that uses crafted items uniquely well. We squeeze extra use out of our familiar by giving it access to the shapes of powerful fiends, and we use Telepathy better than most by using it to conceal our presence - any fiend or beast in the room could be us, concealed, broadcasting instructions to all our minions. The squishiness of demonologist is mitigated by our ability to deal with danger at a distance and redirect attacks - what avenues of assault remain, we are immune or resistant to.

Moreover, we're capital E-Evil, we gain our power by summoning and binding fiends, we torture, we sacrifice, we control our servants through addiction - it's hard to imagine a more perfect exemplar of the wickedness that the BoVD encourages. We're not just a mage with a minor in demonology - everything we do is demons (except when it's fey, but that still works fine within our witch theme).

Lastly, note that unlike either wizards or sublime chords, we have access to quite some social skills. Intimidate is very rare on full caster lists - getting it together with bluff and sense motive is almost unseen. We use all these skills to great effect and have the spells to boost them further.

We do not take Dominate Demon, but we use it in spirit: completely enslaving evil beings to our will is entirely within our capabilities. We can't shortcut the process quite as well, but when you're completely self-sustaining, you have all the time in the world.

Tell me, thou unknown power...

Ice Gnome - Frost
Wild Soul - CMage
Sublime Chord - CArc
Candle Caster - TaB

Gnome Bard - RoS
Fey Bard - UA

Sacrificial Mastery - BoVD
Malign Spell Focus - CoR
Evil Brand - ElE
Versatile Spellcaster - RotD
Fade Into Violence - PHBII

Halaster's Fetch is from City of Splendours: Waterdeep

All quotes from Shakespeare's Macbeth.

The Viscount

2023-11-19, 10:04 PM

Ah, so that's what it means to get froggy.

The Great Horned Toad

https://i.postimg.cc/wjJskG24/438aea4a0e00a29ef8026d1943d09829.jpg

CE Neraph Binder 2 / Wizard 3 / Dread Witch 4 / Demonologist 10 / Geometer 1

Edible, adj.: Good to eat, and wholesome to digest, as a toad to a snake, a snake to a pig, a pig to a man, and a man to a toad.

Here's a fun fact: every part of you is food to something.

Cut off your finger, your ear, your tongue, offer it up to the right being, and watch it be devoured within seconds. Repeat the process until your limbs end in digitless stumps and your face is a bloody ruin, then ask a friend for help with the next bit.

Remove strips of skin and cut them into bite-sized pieces. Pluck out all hair and dissolve it in ooze. Peel away muscle and sinew. Cut loose your bones and break them in half - be sure to catch the marrow before it drains away. The organs should come loose easy enough by this point. Everything that remains can be ground into a paste and left out for the flies.

And there you go! Each part of your body is gone, just like that, disseminated into maggots and worms and wolves. They certainly didn't care about it like you did - they won't even remember the meal in three days' time. And yet everything that makes you you has disappeared into their mouths.

This was a terrifying thought to the first humans. It could not be denied: they were food. They would die, if not today than tomorrow, and if they died they would be eaten. They cowered in their caves, scurrying out to gather scraps of food, knowing that if they were to die, their starving fellows would treat their corpse as meat all the same.

Until one very clever human had an idea. What if, this human suggested, something endured past the death of the body? What if there was an afterlife, a place of rest and reward? What if the body and its death did not really matter?

As it happened, this was even right (or became right, perhaps?). Humans have souls, which simply move on when their body fails. Souls, transcendent, ethereal, which no thing of this world can consume.

...

How unfortunate, then, that there are other worlds.

Who knows what the Toad once was? The Toad itself certainly doesn't anymore, consumed by hunger and madness as it is. Presumably it was a Neraph like any other, which delved into lore too dark to be compatible with sanity, and was in time exiled.

Eventually, the Toad must have found its way to the Abyss, where it chanced upon Laogzed, the amphibian glutton that inhabits the 181st layer of that vile plane. Some glimmer of recognition sparked in its shattered mind, and the Toad declared its undying servitude to this dark master on the spot.

Ever since, the Toad stalks the planes, slaying mortals wantonly and devouring them in macabre (and wholly unnecessary, given its outsider nature) feasts. It deals with demons liberally, viewing them as 'mouths' for its devourer god, and often invites them to partake in its feasts. Even the bravest of paladins find their resolve shaken when confronted with the grim possibility of being butchered and served to the worst of fiends.

Over time, it form warped to resemble the Abyss's loathsome hezrous more than Limbo's slaadi. Its skin shed, then grew back thick and spiked. It developed resistance to the elements, its organs rearranged themselves, and no poison would harm it anymore. Even the stench of death that surrounds hezrous came to linger upon the Toad - one of Laogzed's rare gifts.

But perhaps the strangest thing about the fiend is this. It charges into battle heedless of danger, seeing even the most fearsome dragon as just another morsel to subdue. And yet, when admonished by the quasit that follows it, it cringes and cowers, gibbering in fear, as if it were facing down the hosts of heaven themselves.

Is its mind simply no longer capable of assessing danger properly? Does it recognize part of itself in the fiendish servant, and recoil at realizing what it has become? Or is it merely the groveling of a sycophant, acutely aware that should it cease providing meals, Laogzed would just as happily devour the Toad?

Ability scores:
8 STR
12 DEX
14 CON
14 INT
14 WIS
16 CHA
ASI at 4 in WIS, all others in CHA.

Languages: Neraph, Slaad, Abyssal, Common

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features

1st
Binder 1
+0
+2
+0
+2
Concentration +4 (4), Knowledge (Arcana) +4 (4), Knowledge (Religion) +4 (4), Knowledge (The Planes) +4 (4)
Evil Brand
Soul Binding

2nd
Binder 2
+1
+3
+0
+3
Concentration +1 (5), Knowledge (Arcana) +1 (5), Knowledge (Religion) +1 (5), Knowledge (The Planes) +1 (5)
-
Pact Augmentation, Suppress Sign

3rd
Wizard 1
+1
+3
+0
+5
Concentration +1 (6), Knowledge (Arcana) +1 (6), Knowledge (Religion) +1 (6), Knowledge (The Planes) +1 (6)
Malign Spell Focus
Scribe Scroll, School Specialization (Conjuration), Banned Schools (Evocation, Transmutation), Rapid Summoning

4th
Wizard 2
+2
+3
+0
+6
Concentration +1 (7), Knowledge (Arcana) +1 (7), Knowledge (Religion) +1 (7), Knowledge (The Planes) +1 (7)
-
-

5th
Wizard 3
+2
+4
+1
+6
Concentration +1 (8), Knowledge (Arcana) +1 (8), Knowledge (Religion) +1 (8), Knowledge (The Planes) +1 (8)
-
-

6th
Dread Witch 1
+2
+4
+1
+8
Concentration +1 (9), Intimidate +2 (2), Knowledge (Arcana) +1 (9), Knowledge (Religion) 8, Knowledge (The Planes) 8
Sacrificial Mastery
Master of Terror, Unnatural Will

7th
Dread Witch 2
+3
+4
+1
+9
Concentration +1 (10), Intimidate +1 (3), Knowledge (Arcana) 9, Knowledge (Religion) 8, Knowledge (The Planes) 8, Search +1cc (1)
-
Absorb Fear

8th
Dread Witch 3
+3
+5
+2
+9
Concentration +1 (11), Intimidate +1 (4), Knowledge (Arcana) 9, Knowledge (Religion) 8, Knowledge (The Planes) 8, Search +1cc (2)
-
Fearful Empowerment

9th
Dread Witch 4
+4
+5
+2
+10
Concentration +1 (12), Intimidate +1 (5), Knowledge (Arcana) 9, Knowledge (Religion) 8, Knowledge (The Planes) 8, Search 2, Spellcraft +2 (2)
Insane Defiance
Delay Fear, Greater Master of Terror

10th
Demonologist 1
+4
+5
+2
+12
Concentration 12, Decipher Script +3 (3), Disable Device +1cc (1), Intimidate 5, Knowledge (Arcana) 9, Knowledge (Religion) 8, Knowledge (The Planes) 8, Search 2, Spellcraft +1 (3)
-
Charm Demon

11th
Demonologist 2
+5
+5
+2
+13
Concentration 12, Decipher Script +3 (6), Disable Device +1cc (2), Intimidate 5, Knowledge (Arcana) 9, Knowledge (Religion) 8, Knowledge (The Planes) 8, Search 2, Spellcraft +1 (4)
-
Quasit Familiar

12th
Demonologist 3
+5
+6
+3
+13
Concentration 12, Decipher Script +3 (9), Disable Device +1cc (3), Intimidate +1 (6), Knowledge (Arcana) 9, Knowledge (Religion) 8, Knowledge (The Planes) 8, Search 2, Spellcraft 4
Arcane Disciple (Demonologist) (Death Domain)
Summoning Mastery +2

13th
Demonologist 4
+6
+6
+3
+14
Concentration +2 (14), Decipher Script 9, Disable Device +1cc (4), Intimidate +2 (8), Knowledge (Arcana) 9, Knowledge (Religion) 8, Knowledge (The Planes) 8, Search 2, Spellcraft 4
-
Resistances

14th
Demonologist 5
+6
+6
+3
+14
Concentration +2 (16), Decipher Script 9, Disable Device 4, Intimidate +2 (10), Knowledge (Arcana) 9, Knowledge (Religion) 8, Knowledge (The Planes) 8, Search +1cc (3), Spellcraft 4
-
Poison Immunity

15th
Demonologist 6
+7
+7
+4
+15
Concentration +2 (18), Decipher Script 9, Disable Device 4, Intimidate +2 (12), Knowledge (Arcana) 9, Knowledge (Religion) 8, Knowledge (The Planes) 8, Search +1cc (4), Spellcraft 4
Charnel Miasma
Summoning Mastery +3

16th
Geometer 1
+7
+7
+4
+17
Concentration +1 (19), Decipher Script 9, Disable Device 4, Intimidate 12, Knowledge (Arcana) 9, Knowledge (Religion) +3 (11), Knowledge (The Planes) 8, Search 4, Spellcraft 4
-
Glyph of Warding, Draw Spellglyph

17th
Demonologist 7
+7
+7
+4
+17
Concentration +1 (20), Decipher Script 9, Disable Device 4, Intimidate +2 (14), Knowledge (Arcana) 9, Knowledge (Religion) +3 (14), Knowledge (The Planes) 8, Search 4, Spellcraft 4
-
Hold Demon

18th
Demonologist 8
+8
+7
+4
+18
Concentration +1 (21), Decipher Script 9, Disable Device 4, Intimidate +2 (16), Knowledge (Arcana) 9, Knowledge (Religion) +3 (17), Knowledge (The Planes) 8, Search 4, Spellcraft 4
Chosen of Evil
Telepathy

19th
Demonologist 9
+8
+8
+5
+18
Concentration +1 (22), Decipher Script 9, Disable Device 4, Intimidate +2 (18), Knowledge (Arcana) 9, Knowledge (Religion) +3 (20), Knowledge (The Planes) 8, Search 4, Spellcraft 4
-
Summoning Mastery +4

20th
Demonologist 10
+9
+8
+5
+19
Concentration +1 (23), Decipher Script 9, Disable Device 4, Intimidate +2 (20), Knowledge (Arcana) 9, Knowledge (Religion) +3 (23), Knowledge (The Planes) 8, Search 4, Spellcraft 4
-
Dominate Demon

Spells per Day

Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th

3rd
3
2
-
-
-

4th
4
3
-
-
-

5th
4
3
2
-
-

7th
4
4
3
-
-

8th
4
4
3
1
-

9th
4
4
4
2
-

16th
4
5
4
2
1

Spellbook:
0: All except evocation, transmutation. (this includes two Conjuration spells: Acid Splash and Caltrops)
1: Cause Fear, Extract Drug, Grease, Hypnotism, Mage Armor, Shield, Spontaneous Search
2: Invisibility, Mindless Rage, Scare, Vision of Entropy (DW: Bane, Doom)
3: Adoration of the Frightful, Bands of Steel, Curse of the Putrid Husk, Willing Sacrifice (Geo: Glyph of Warding)
4: Dimension Door, Remove Curse

Typical Spells Prepared (ECL 20):
0: Detect Magic, Read Magic, Preserve Organ, Prestidigitation + Caltrops
1: Grease, Grease, Hypnotism, Shield, Spontaneous Search + Mage Armor
2: Mindless Rage, Invisibility, Vision of Entropy, Vision of Entropy + Extract Drug
3: Adoration of the Frightful, Curse of the Putrid Husk + Bands of Steel
4: Remove Curse + Dimension Door

Spells per Day

Level
1st
2nd
3rd
4th

10th
2
-
-
-

11th
2
2
-
-

12th
3
2
2
-

13th
3
3
2
2

14th
4
3
3
2

15th
4
4
3
3

17th
4
4
4
3

18th
5
4
4
4

19th
5
5
4
4

20th
6
5
5
4

5: You're a wizard with soul binding instead of 3rd-level spells, which isn't great - but you're still a wizard, so you should be fine. Do crowd control with Grease, keep yourself safe with Mage Armor and the odd Shield, and screw over single targets with Mindless Rage and Scare. Hypnotism helps in social situations, Search helps with exploration (neraphs have a racial bonus and we'll put some ranks here in the future), and Extract Drug can summon up all sorts of little bonuses when needed. Naberius is your best vestige option anyway, so any ability damage from substance abuse is quickly healed.

You also get a pact augmentation - +2 to initiative is probably the best one, but +1 to saves isn't bad either.

10: We get into a PrC right on cue thanks to Dread Witch's multiclass-friendly prereqs. Our fear effects can now affect creatures otherwise immune to fear, we're basically immune to fear ourselves, all our fear is harder to resist, and once per day we can add the fear descriptor to a spell that otherwise wouldn't have it. The last ability is a bit weird: it talks about creatures 'targeted' but gives an area spell and a summon spell as examples. If the ability is ruled to work with Summon Monster, that's just another nice bonus for when we become a proper demonologist.

Speaking of which all Summon Monsters we'll get from this point on are only a single standard action to cast, courtesy of us being a conjurer. It's a nice bonus for a spell we'll be relying on so much.

More importantly, we grab Insane Defiance. Now, whenever we use a mind-affecting effect (fear spells, but also Naberius' Command ability), we can target it at ourselves, immediately take a point of wisdom damage to redirect the effect, and impose a -4 penalty on our real target's saving throw, then recover the lost wisdom near-instantly with naberius. Because we are a chaotic evil outsider, we're a valid target for our own Charm Demon and can use the trick with that, too... and Hypnotism is a great follow up to use on treated-as-friendly creatures.

Just as an example, take Curse of the Putrid Husk, an [Evil, Fear, Mind-Affecting] save-or-lose that dazes for 1 round and renders the target unconscious thereafter. Its DC is effectively 23, at a level where enemy Will save bonuses hover around +9. That's a two-thirds chance to end a level-appropriate battle on turn 1! Granted, it won't stay that good forever, but we'll have new tricks to make up for it by then.

I'd also like to note real quick that the BoVD on page 77 suggests giving Doom the [Evil] descriptor, which'd be a nice bonus for us. It's worth asking the DM!

15: We have a new trick. Note how the earlier description of Dread Witch conspicuously left out Absorb Fear? That's because we're breaking it wide open right about now.

First, become shaken. There's a number of ways to do this, but the easiest is simply to have an ally Demoralize you. Your save vs fear is pretty impressive by this point, and your party might not include anyone with high enough intimidate... but your shiny new Quasit familiar shares your skill ranks, has okay charisma, and can shift into a medium form to eliminate the size penalty, meaning he can get the job done in a few tries.

(The quasit has another use: he's an Evil creature with Fast Healing and thus a prime target for Willing Sacrifice, which deals 1d10 damage to him and gives you a floating attack/save/skill/damage/ability check bonus half that amount - thanks, buddy!)

Next, use Charnel Miasma on yourself. Because you are shaken, this is a save-or-be-panicked (note how this is not normal fear escalation, the panicked effect exists unto itself). Before you actually have to make a saving throw, use Insane Defiance to shift it off to your quasit (who will be shaken at worst and get immune after a while). You were unquestionably 'exposed to a condition that could make you panicked', and thus gain a free 2nd-level spell. You can even do this in combat if there's a shaken foe nearby to offload Charnel Miasma to - it's far from the worst use of your action in that case.

But alright, free spells of 2nd-level and lower. That's getting us free drugs, Mage Armor and Invisibility for everyone in the party, always-up Shield, always-up Detect Magic, free Preserve Organ castings (helpful with demonologist's weirder material components and the Toad's weirder appetites), a result-of-20 Spontaneous Search whenever we enter a new room. Pretty neat... but we've only talked about wizard spells so far.

For a Demonologist, a class where massively underleveled spells are the entire point, this is AMAZING. Endless Magic Circle Against Good, Demonflesh, and Protection From Energy as party-wide buffs, free Demoncalls whenever you need to recall some lore or sacrifice a poor sap? Don't mind if I do! And, of course, endless Summon Monster IIs that get upgraded to Summon Monster Vs: Fiendish Giant Crocodiles and Tigers are far from useless if you have an infinite amount of them (if nothing else, they make great trap-trippers). There's some fun to be had with endless Bestow Curse, too - no reason not to hit every captive you take with a dozen of crippling ailments.

Other than that, our access to the Death Domain gives us Death Ward, which is a solid buff, as well as Animate Dead for if you want minions that actually stick around. We're now immune to poison and resistant to energy, making us a lot harder to kill than we previously were (and able to devour fallen foes with more impunity - eat a salamander or ooze, why not?).

I'd just like to note that most demonologists will probably put the required 15 in wisdom with the utmost of reluctance, but for us, we need 14 anyway to get the most out of Arcane Disciple, and given how commonly we'll take a point of damage to the stat, increasing that to 15 makes good sense. Even if Demonologist didn't have the sacrificial mastery prerequisite, I might've gone with this amount of wisdom!

20:
Our Summon Monster IIs are now grabbing from the 6th-level list, giving us unlimited access to fun things like Windscythes (big flying brutes that spread fear), giant constrictor snakes, huge monstrous spiders, and Ghostwalk's artaagliths, which can raise undead and come with cleric spells. I'd just broadly like to note that fear goes great with summoning: if you can get someone panicked, they run away and provoke AoOs from every summoned monster near them.

A quick dip in Geometer gives us Glyph of Warding, letting us store 3rd-level or lower spells (hello there, Summon Monster 7 and your beautiful fiendish girallons, babaus, and giant octopodes). Even without summon monster, this still lets you store Dancing Chains, Dimensional Anchor, Stunning Screech, or Bestow Curse! Dance of Ruin is another fun option that singlehandedly obsoletes the blasting mode. Note that GoW can be cast on moveable objects, so this quickly becomes a very attractive spell-storing medium.

Note the synergy between GoW and our summon spam. In a dungeon situation, you can prepare the battlefield with glyphs, then start sending summons into the rooms ahead. Either the enemies stay put and you slowly whittle them down, or they come out to face you and blunder right into your spell traps. It's low risk, high reward - even if the foes flee you still made progress with only a little GP expended.

We also learn to create complex glyphs that eliminate a spell's verbal components. This is mostly interesting with Dread Word, which is [Evil], deals charisma drain and only has verbal components: in noncombat situations we can use it without making it obvious we are the one using it. Suppressing verbal components is also neat for when we're invisible - as is our telepathy, allowing our party to communicate without immediately giving away their position. There's also some fun to be had with invisibly casting Silent Delayed Visions of Entropy, then starting the fight just as all the fear effects take hold.

Hold Demon and Dominate Demon are two more Mind-Affecting SLAs we can bounce off of ourselves for bigger effect - the latter is especially nice to seize control of called demons and avoid the whole 'bargaining' stage. Rendering the fiend shaken first further reduces its chance of making the saving throw.

Our final feat is Chosen of Evil. It's our fourth vile feat, so we can now take 1 point of constitution damage to get a +4 bonus on any skill check or save. With our 20 charisma and +1 Diplomacy bonus from learning Adoration of the Frightful, we can make a standard action diplomacy check that will always suffice to render hostile creatures unfriendly or turn friendly creatures (rendered so by Charm or Adoration of the Frightful) helpful - nice for the off day where you don't want to fight.

Our Intimidate is up to +37 with this boost, or +39 against evil targets, which is enough to intimidate about any humanoid and most outsiders out there. Even a balor is only rolling with +31 to oppose!

We also max out knowledge (religion), giving us a final modifier of: 23 ranks + 2 intelligence + 4 sacrificial mastery + 10 demoncall = +39. Thus, we're making the DC 40 check for a Limited Wish 100% of the time - if we're angling for Control Weather or Wish we can drop the +4 Chosen of Evil bonus to get a 95% and 70% chance respectively. Willing Sacrifice gets you most of the rest of the way there. Even without that boost, 'one limited wish for every captive you sacrifice' is already near the upper limit for what you can expect out of sacrifice optimization. Your other knowledge skills, though not as optimized, are still easily in the entirely acceptable low-to-mid twenties thanks to Demoncall.

I couldn't get fit in, due to being forced to ban transmutation, but you could use the Charnel Fear engine to get limitless castings of Heroics. If the spell stacks with itself (rules are ambiguous on this point), you'd be granting dozens of fighter bonus feats to a single target. I'll leave it to the playground to come up with some fun uses for that trick (Martial Study and Martial Stance seem promising, though).

Neraph: PlH

Binder: ToM
Dread Witch: HoH
Geometer: CArc

Insane Defiance: EE
Arcane Disciple: CDiv
Charnel Miasma: CChamp
Chosen of Evil: EE

Extract Drug, Curse of the Putrid Husk: BoVD
Bands of Steel, Mindless Rage, Spontaneous Search: SComp
Adoration of the Frightful: DM
Vision of Entropy: FCI
Willing Sacrifice: EoE

Laogzed's domains: CD
(really, any CE Death god works, and there's a few of those - I just liked the flavor)

Quote adapted from Ambrose Bierce.

The Viscount

2023-11-19, 10:06 PM

Were you reminded of the Brady Bunch? You are now!

Aries Darantas of Lhazaar:
Heretic-Thrice, Shade-Blooded Hustler, Once Esteemed Urchin of the Paragnostic Assembly, He Who Drank the Blood of the Forgotten God, Pretty Bad Feller All 'Round When You Think About It Really, Bringer of the RAMPOCALYPSE, Betrayer of the Dragon Below, [Redacted-For-PG-Reasons] Enthusiast Extraordinaire, Wearer of the Helm, The One That Shall Become.

https://i.ibb.co/qpNT3zk/Artaaglith-Bae.jpg

NE->CE pathetic noncombatant male human->Spellscale1 spellthief2 11, Demonologist 9.

When you grow up where I did, you learn to get by.

You learn that food comes when food comes, you learn that violence is the way of the world, you learn that underneath every quaint little hamlet there are endless heaps of bones. You learn to laugh, and smile, and sing like everything is going to be alright, already is alright. You learn to be a lover, not a fighter (I'll admit to learning that lesson very well.)

You learn to keep your head down when those who actually matter walk past you. Charm doesn't work on them like it does on real folk. You don't want to get their attention. You don't want them to remember that you exist.

You don't want to fracture the illusion. There's only one rule, really: you do not mess with the charade.

Knights in shining armor, fighting for the poor and the misfortunate. Waging a crusade for justice and chivalry all across the principalities!

Yeah, right. I'm sure that's why they drown every unannounced ship that gets too close.

People say my island principality is a pristine, idyllic picture of days that have gone by for the rest of the Lhazaar Principalities, and Khorvaire at large. Beautiful little farms dot the quiet meadows, underneath the majestic shadows of peaceful mountains, mists rolling over them like bliss over a midsummer dream. People also say my island is ruled by benevolent masters, powerful lords of illusory magic that came from Aundair long before the Last War.

Could you imagine having such a low opinion on humanity, that you'd be willing publicize that what seems like a quaint little piece of paradise is ruled by illusionists, trusting that no one will be able to put two and two together?

Could you imagine, even in your wildest dreams, being right about that?

My people aren't serfs. We aren't slaves. We aren't cattle. We're much, much less.

We're set dressing.

I did wonder, back then, what gave them the right. They're rich, sure, but riches are a fleeting thing that can be taken away. They're knowledgeable, but knowledge can be stolen, distributed. They have magic – but magic too, so I found, can be taken away. Huh.

They didn't like that, they didn't like that one bit. Like I said: You do. Not. Mess. With the charade.

I was taught invaluable lessons, then. Lessons of glorious pain and depravity. I thought I knew suffering before, believed the fools who said that grief and sorrow are worse than simple physical pain. Simple? Most people have no idea where the limits of their body are. How far one can push without killing, the richness and complexity of truly exquisite pain.

Did I really think that we could share it all? Life isn’t about having wealth, or knowledge, or magical prowess. These are all means to an end, to the true meaning of life: power over others. And that – there's no sharing that. It's a zero-sum game. Kill or be killed. If you wish to be the boot, someone else has got to be the squishy, juicy vermin. I took that lesson to heart, at the time. And there's much truth to it.

But there's so much more.

They let me go. Branded, tormented, with intimate first-hand knowledge of how a body is stretched upon an altar, they unleashed me upon the unsuspecting continent. Did they know, even then? Could they? With their magic, did they see what I had already forgotten? A fascinated child looking upon a single iridescent drop of blood, suspended in a puddle. Something only whispered of in the dark networks of Breland and Aundair.

In the continent, I bloomed. What I did by pure instinct before, I now mastered, and was ready and willing to take, to devour, the magic of others. I now know that the blood within me was begging for more to be spilled. I wished to master as I had been mastered, to torture as I had been tortured.

How pitiful is the unambitious mind!

As I mastered my abilities, and studied the secrets arcane, I started seeing… hints. A society, keeping esoteric knowledge like a legendary dragon keeps its horde. The Assembly. I may have resented them, was I to meet them as a youth, but I learned my lessons well. Nothing has value if everyone has it; knowledge is to be savored, to be taken, to be kept deep and cold and quiet and oozing. I was ready and willing, and they let me in – and started sending me after the secrets of the depths of Khyber, to research the mysteries of the insane cults that worship those depths.

I joined one, naturally. A cult, that is – or perhaps another cult would be a better way to put it, since the Assembly wasn't exactly not-a-cult, if I'm being honest. It was great fun, like most cults. There are lots of body-fluids to be spilled, and each is fun in its own way. Well, depending on the fluid, and on which side of the exchange you are on.

My cult was not one the Assembly has heard of before, and I was handsomely rewarded for finding it. We worshipped an unnamed evil lurking within the depths, something of eyes unending – and we did so with a zealotry that put to shame even the most fanatical worshippers of the Pure Flame. We were fools, yes, but we were all having tremendous fun.

Well, save for the sacrifices, of course – though I'd like to think some of them got into the spirit of things as well.

I sometimes ponder where that fanaticism has gone. I reckon it's still with me, in a way. Tempered, matured, grounded in far deeper understanding. That started once my attention was diverted even further down and away.

Stare long enough at the abyss, and the abyss stares back.

I cannot do this in writing. How could dead letters on a page describe the feeling of delving into the glorious darkness? How could I communicate the warm breath on your neck, the fingers dancing down your spine, the knife spilling your own intestines on the floor? I cannot, so I shall not, but know this: mastering and being mastered are one and the same. Power and passion are one and the same. There is nothing to run away from, only something to run towards, to endlessly rush and tumble forward in the insane pursuit that is the goal itself, to submerge yourself so deep into depravity that you emerge to the heights of redemption. Words are worthless. Experience! Experience it all! Horror is no worse and no better than pleasure. Only intensity matters. The flesh is a means to an end, and can be changed to enhance, to heighten. Light, darkness, pleasure, pain, blood, blood, blood, blood – and fire.

Demonology. Everything else seemed pale. The cult, ridiculous and pathetic, the cheap imitation of an echo's shadow. The further I advanced in my journey, the weaker my faith has become – until I turned against them in an orgy of bloodshed. The Assembly, a resource and no more, sending me away from what matters in life.

But inertia takes time to break. It'd be more than a year before I left the Assembly. I joined a group of acolytes on our way to the greatest cache of wisdom in the entire universe.

Do you have any idea what it feels like, to go through two separate spiritual awakenings and one physical transformation in the span of mere months? The soul tears apart, breaks down. A dog cannot serve two masters. Oh, how I wished I hadn't seen!

But I had. The catalogues store everything. Be it the history of Sarlona, the sexual preferences of amphibious animals – or the discoveries of the Eyes of Aundair and the King's Dark Lanterns on the influence of the mysterious matter known as "divine blood" on a mortal soul.

Memories awakened. A single drop, suspended in a puddle. Everything I am, everything I will be. A condensed energy of murder and shadow, tangy on my lips, changing me to my core.

What was this so called "Divine Blood?" Some theories suggested this was concentrated magic, oozing from Xoriat. Others explained that its appearance was a precursor to the mourning, a dark and foreign energy that must be contained. All laughed at the superstition spreading among those that have been exposed to it that it was a divine essence, a dark mirror to the Silver Flame – something foreign, truly foreign.

But I knew the truth, felt it to my core. I have a new god – no, I've always had a god, and didn't know it.

And he's dead.

Miserable days. My new body wanted to experience it all, to relish in my magical might. I summoned beings that were never meant to be, enslaved them and was enslaved by them in return. Perfection, I would've thought.

But I was haunted by what was, by the spirit of my true master. What was I doing, summoning demons, when I should be looking for a way to summon him? To bring his essence into the world, watch him arrive and shake the entire theological underpinning of the world?

My mind shies away from these pathetic memories. Blindness, self-pity, shame. These are not worthy of me – yet I force myself to remember. I'm just a mortal man, and mortal men err. I'll have to remember that, for the day I'm not one anymore draws nearer and nearer.

For now I see clearly. It was like a lightning strike, that moment when everything coalesced. Why could I do things no other could? Why did ritual murder, the very essence of my power, also bring demons to my door? Abyssal power, upon which I can call like no other? A god waiting to return, or to become? What is a god? An essence, a mind, unlimited planar power.

I can draw infinite power from the abyss. I never run out, like others do. More, and more, and more.

I have a mind, a presence more powerful than any man.

And I have the essence.

I was obsessed with a non-exsitent mythology, convinced that I had drank the blood of a god. In a way, I was right – except there is no "him" to try and bring back, there never was. There is only that essence, seeking to become complete, calling to the Abyss. Demonology is the tool.

And I am the vessel.

I am that which I am. I will bring myself back. I will coalesce again, as I must have once done. Mortal mind, divine essence, and infinite power shall become one.

I am Aries.

But through the power of the Abyss below, I have been – will be – must be –

God.

Abilities
32 PB
4th
8th
12th
13th (Rite)
16th
20th

STR
6 (pathetic)
"
"
"
"
"
6

DEX
14
"
"
"
"
"
14

CON
10
"
"
"
8
"
8

INT
8
"
"
"
"
"
8

WIS
15
"
"
"
"
"
15

CHA
18
19
20
21
23
24
25

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Reflex Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features

1st
Spellthief 1
0
0
0
2
+4 Bluff (4), +4 Concentration (4), +4 Knowledge-Arcana (4), +4 Knowledge-Local (4), +4(cc) Knowledge-religion (2), +4 Spellcraft (4)
Magical Training3, Sacrifical Mastery, Evil Brand, Penumbra Bloodline4
Sneak Attack 1d6, Steal Spell (0 or 1st), Trapfinding

2nd
Spellthief 2
1
0
0
3
+1 Bluff (5), +1 Concentration (5), +1 Knowledge-Arcana (5), +1 Knowledge-Local (5), +1(cc) Knowledge-religion (2.5), Spellcraft 4, +1 Use Magic Device (1)
-
Detect Magic, Spellgrace +1, Steal Spell Effect

3rd
Spellthief 3
2
1
1
3
+1 Bluff (6), +1 Concentration (6), Knowledge-Arcana 5, Knowledge-Local 5, +1(cc) Knowledge-religion (3), Spellcraft 4, +3 Use Magic Device (4)
Malign Spell Focus
Steal Enegy Resistance 10

4th
Spellthief 4
3
1
1
4
+1 Bluff (7), +1 Concentration (7), Knowledge-Arcana 5, Knowledge-Local 5, +1(cc) Knowledge-religion (3.5), Spellcraft 4, +3 Use Magic Device (7)
-
Steal Spell (2nd)

5th
Spellthief 5
3
1
1
4
+1 Bluff (8), +1 Concentration (8), Knowledge-Arcana 5, Knowledge-Local 5, +1(cc) Knowledge-religion (4), +2 Search (2), Spellcraft 4, +1 Use Magic Device (8)
-
Sneak Attack 2d6, Steal Spell Like Abillity,

6th
Spellthief 6
4
2
2
5
+1 Bluff (9), +1 Concentration (9), Knowledge-Arcana 5, Knowledge-Local 5, Knowledge-religion 4, +3 search (5), Spellcraft 4, +1 Use Magic Device (9)
Arcane Disciple5 (Dragon Below6, Summoner7)
Steal Spell (3rd)

7th
Spellthief 7
5
2
2
5
+1 Bluff (10), +1 Concentration (10), Knowledge-Arcana 5, Knowledge-Local 5, Knowledge-religion 4, +3 search (8), Spellcraft 4, +1 Use Magic Device (10)
-
Absorb Spell

8th
Spellthief 8
6
2
2
6
Bluff 10, +1 Concentration (11), Knowledge-Arcana 5, Knowledge-Local 5, +5 Knowledge-Planes (5), Knowledge-religion 4, Search 8, Spellcraft 4, Use Magic Device 10
-
Steal Spell (4th), Seeker of Unseen Words8 (Knowledge-planes)

9th
Spellthief 9
6
3
3
6
Bluff 10, +1 Concentration (12), Knowledge-Arcana 5, Knowledge-Local 5, +3 Knowledge-Planes (8), Knowledge-religion 4, Search 8, Spellcraft 4, Use Magic Device 10, +2 Swift Concentration9
Ordered Chaos10
Arcane Sight, Sneak Attack 3d6

10th
Spellthief 10
7
3
3
7
+3 Bluff (13), +1 Concentration (13), Knowledge-Arcana 5, Knowledge-Local 5, Knowledge-Planes 8, Knowledge-religion 4, Search 8, Spellcraft 4, +2 Use Magic Device (12), Swift Concentration
-
Steal Spell (5th)

11th
Spellthief 11
8
3
3
7
+1 Bluff (14), +1 Concentration (14), Knowledge-Arcana 5, Knowledge-Local 5, Knowledge-Planes 8, Knowledge-religion 4, Search 8, +2 Speak-Abyssal, Spellcraft 4, +2 Use Magic Device (14), Swift Concentration
-
Spellgrace +2, Steal Energy Resistance 20

12th
Demonologist 1
8
3
3
9
+1 Bluff (15), Concentration 14, +1 Knowledge-Arcana (6), Knowledge-Local 5, Knowledge-Planes 8, +2 Knowledge-religion (6), Search 8, Speak-Abyssal, Spellcraft 4, Use Magic Device 14, Swift Concentration
Master Spellthief11
Charm Demon, Steal Spell (6th)

13th
Demonologist 2
9
3
3
10
+1 Bluff (16), Concentration 14, -2 Knowledge-Arcana (4), -5 Knowledge-Local (0), Knowledge-Planes 8, +3 Knowledge-religion (9), -8 Search (0), Speak-Abyssal, Spellcraft 4, -1 Use Magic Device (13), Swift Concentration
Magical Training
Quasit Familiar, Rite of Spellscale Assumption12

14th
Demonologist 3
9
4
4
10
+1 Bluff (17), Concentration 14, Knowledge-Arcana 4, Knowledge-Planes 8, +2 Knowledge-religion (11), Speak-Abyssal, Spellcraft 4, Use Magic Device 13, Swift Concentration
Arcane Disciple -> Craft Wondrous Item, Ordered Chaos -> Planar Touchstone13 (Catalogues of Enlightenment14, Charm15)
Summoning Mastery +2, Steal Spell (7th), retraining16, NE->CE

15th
Demonologist 4
10
4
4
11
+1 Bluff (18), Concentration 14, Knowledge-Arcana 4, Knowledge-Planes 8, +2 Knowledge-religion (13), Speak-Abyssal, Spellcraft 4, Use Magic Device 13, Swift Concentration
Godsblood Spelltheft (https://web.archive.org/web/20070609144714/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606)17 (Bhaal18, Death)
Resistances

16th
Demonologist 5
10
4
4
11
+1 Bluff (19), Concentration 14, Knowledge-Arcana 4, Knowledge-Planes 8, +2 Knowledge-religion (15), Speak-Abyssal, Spellcraft 4, Use Magic Device 13, Swift Concentration
-
Poison Immunity, Steal Spell (8th)

17th
Demonologist 6
11
5
5
12
+1 Bluff (20), Concentration 14, Knowledge-Arcana 4, Knowledge-Planes 8, +2 Knowledge-religion (17), Speak-Abyssal, Spellcraft 4, Use Magic Device 13, Swift Concentration
-
Summoning Mastery +3

18th
Demonologist 7
11
5
5
12
+1 Bluff (21), Concentration 14, Knowledge-Arcana 4, Knowledge-Planes 8, +2 Knowledge-religion (19), Speak-Abyssal, Spellcraft 4, Use Magic Device 13, Swift Concentration
Heretic of the Faith19 (Bhaal18, Abyss20)
Hold Demon, Steal Spell (9th)

19th
Demonologist 8
12
5
5
13
+1 Bluff (22), Concentration 14, Knowledge-Arcana 4, Knowledge-Planes 8, +2 Knowledge-religion (21), Speak-Abyssal, Spellcraft 4, Use Magic Device 13, Swift Concentration
-
Telepathy

20th
Demonologist 9
12
6
6
14
+1 Bluff (23), Concentration 14, Knowledge-Arcana 4, Knowledge-Planes 8, +2 Knowledge-religion (23), Speak-Abyssal, Spellcraft 4, Use Magic Device 13, Swift Concentration
-
Summoning Mastery +4

Spells Known:

Magical Training: Acid Splash, Caltrops21

Spellthief (helm not included):

1st: Nerveskitter22 (level 4), Sniper's Shot23 (level 4), Summon Monster I (Level 6-13), Ebon Eyes24 (level 8), + Obscuring Mist (bloodline).

2nd: Mirror Image (level 8), Ray of Stupidity25 (level 8), Summon Monster II (level 10-13), + Darkness (bloodline).

3rd: Haste (level 11), Summon Monster III (level 11-13), + Nondetection (bloodline).

Spells of the Abyss Domain20:

1st: Align Weapon, Cause Fear

2nd: Bull's Strength, Death Knell

3rd: Babau Slime, Summon Monster III (CE only)

4th: Balor Nimbus, Poison

5th: Slay Living, Summon Monster V (CE only)

6th: Mass Bull's Strength, Harm

7th: Destruction, Summon Monster VII (CE only)

8th: Finger of Death, Bodak's Glare

Spells Per Day (cha not included)

Level
Magic Source
0th
1st
2nd
3rd
4th

1st
Magical Training
3
-
-
-
-

4th
Spellthief
-
0
-
-
-

5th
Spellthief
-
0
-
-
-

6th
Spellthief
-
1
-
-
-

7th
Spellthief
-
1
-
-
-

8th
Spellthief
-
1
0
-
-

9th
Spellthief
-
1
0
-
-

10th
Spellthief
-
1
1
-
-

11th
Spellthief
-
1
1
0
-

12th
Demonologist
-
1
-
-
-

13th
Demonologist
-
1
1
-
-

14th
Demonologist
-
2
1
1
-

15th
Demonologist
-
2
2
1
1

16th
Demonologist
-
3
2
2
1

17th
Demonologist
-
3
3
2
2

18th
Demonologist
-
3
3
3
2

19th
Demonologist
-
4
3
3
3

20th
Demonologist
-
4
4
3
3

Aries starts his adventuring career as a haunted refugee, banished from his homeland of a Lhazaar Principality called Nimbral, ruled by illusion-casting immigrants from the main arcane spellcasting nation of Eberron. Basically, a port of Faerun's Nimbral26 to Eberron, to help the cross-setting material slide easier down your throat. His attempts to understand his powers have brought him to the Paragnostic Assembly8. He exclusively adventures for them from levels 1-8, quickly gaining recognition and appreciation, until other interests draw him away. Eventually, around level 15 or so, he'll lapse on his payments and be banished from the Assembly forever. Being crass and looking behind the curtain for a second, he got what he needed by level 9: eight ranks of Knowledge-Planes as a class skill.

Mechanically, Aries is a spellthief with a bit more magic than others. He can cast Acid Splash for far more reliable sneak attacks at these early levels, though caltrops may see some use as well. His magical training qualifies him for Penumbra Bloodline, though it'll only start helping him at level 4.

As a spellthief, he's admittedly slightly behind when it comes to fighting – his Dex is no more than fine, and though a range touch attack as a sneak-attack / steal spell carrier is a great addition to his capabilities, he can only do that three times a day. He does have the advantage of having a higher Charisma than would be commonplace. This powers his spells, keeps his steal-spell-effect very competitive, and gives him ample uses of detect magic (and arcane sight later on).

He's also an excellent hustler, with full ranks in bluff and high charisma, advantages he'll keep for his entire career. These levels see him as a somewhat generalist skill monkey. UMD starts coming online as money becomes more accessible, allowing Aries to function as a wandslinger – a classic form of Eberron warfare since the Last War. His own acid splash, as well as wands of acid splash, melf's acid arrow, orbs of all kinds, etc, should prove a more effective method of dealing with enemies than his trusty light crossbow.

Spellwise, he'll soon be well equipped to keep his sneak attack going. For now, nerveskitter should certainly help. He's not a main damage dealer, but being able to steal spells without having to risk going flanking in melee is important. Of course, many casters would not be an issue to come face-to-face with, but some will. Obscuring mist from his bloodline (not normally accessible to spellthieves) serves as a nice get-away from level 4, but gains some more kick at level 6, when it can be combined with Summon Monster 1. I'm not going to pretend a small fiendish monstrous spider is a game changer at level 6, but it can still be useful against appropriate opponents, and obscuring mist helps back up the tremorsense.

That spider is there due to him becoming an Arcane Disciple of the Cult of the Dragon Below, picking the summoner domain to open up the summon monster line of spells for use even before he goes into the SI. There'll be some interesting things happening with these spells, so watch out.

Still, as appropriate for a spellthief, it's mostly spelltheft itself that gives him his combat utility. Even when not facing spellcasting enemies, his ability to essentially double the action-economy of a full caster should prove an essential asset – and when fighting casting enemies, he's unparalleled. Absorb spell comes on at level 7, and is a huge boost to everything he does.

Level 8 gives him the combo of darkness and eboneyes. His 20 in Cha before items means he can fuel that for a while before having to rely on absorbed/stolen spell energy. It also brings forth the excellent mirror image and Ray of Stupidity – a hugely impactful spell that he can add sneak attack / steal spell on top of. If you're ever caught with your trousers wands off, this is a good spell to make sure you still have more impact than you would with a crossbow.

Level 9's ordered chaos is a nice feat to have when messing with demons and devils, but it's mainly here to qualify him for the SI despite being none-chaotic. He also takes swift concentration at this level, which isn't much help with his native spells, but is a very useful tool to have for a spellthief, if you find yourself stealing a concentration spell. At level 10, he gets Summon Monster II, and at level 11, he gets 3rd level spells.

Nondetection from his bloodline is phenomenal, especially for an evil conman like him who's likely to mess with outsiders looking for vengeance. Summon Monster III is Summon Monster III, and that’s not great. Haste is haste, and that is great. You can obviously see why haste is extra-awesome for a summoner, especially with Aries' CL about to shoot up, as he goes into Demonologist. Once he leaves the SI, master spellthief will keep up his CL and his steal spell limit – but everything else, including the amount of spell levels he can hold at once, is going to stay behind, which is why it was so crucial to avoid other classes if possible on his way to the SI.

Do you have any idea how freaking hard it is to get 6 arcane conjuration spells (including a third level one) on an evil spellthief 11?

I really, really don't think you do.

No bloodline offers more than one conjuration spell for levels 1-3. No corrupt spell below sixth level is conjuration. No dual-school spells of the appropriate levels are conjuration/A school I'm allowed to pick. No sneaky racial choices, since I'm limited to human/elf to pick a feat and take the only two conjuration cantrips in the entire game.

No CE gods offer enough conjuration through their domains. The only alternative to what I'm doing would be the healing domain, through some NE FR orc goddess27 I could've picked for the ability to go through the rite of spellscale assumption 1 level earlier. It just doesn't work with the character. If you were to write a less deranged and more casually-evil version, it could work – though it'd be introducing even more Faerun material to this build already riddled with cross-setting choices.

Rant done.

As I said before the rant, into the SI we go! Aries is still in the cult and in the assembly, but he's starting to drift towards a different form of Khyberism – demonology, rather than his cult devoted to a Daelkyr. First level of the SI isn't that great for most, but Aries gets master spellthief! Not only does he get to steal 6th level spells, all his spells are now CL 12 – miles better than the CL 1 you'd normally have for demonologist spells right now. Fully pumped Cha helps with Charm Demon.

Next level, more goodies. The breakneck spell-advancement of the first 4 levels of demonologist is still greatly benefiting from the CL boost. More importantly though, this is also the level where Aries goes through the Rite of Spellscale Assumption. He loses some skill points and his cantrips (enough conjuration spells now to still qualify without them), Cha gets increased by 2, and he gets access to a whole slew of changeable metamagic feats through blood quickening meditations.28

His quasit familiar (Festum, easily agitated male capable of bat and wolf forms) enjoys access to a busted bluff score and great UMD, and provides him with invisibility at will through steal SLA, making his life much easier (especially as it comes to sneak attacks), and some resistance through steal energy resistance. Nice!

It is sometime during the next level that Aries finally loses his faith in his cult, and betrays it. He might be hunted by agents of Belashyrra for the rest of his life.

Level 3 brings lots of mayhem. I don't need to tell you about lesser/planar binding (well, I'll tell you just a little bit about it later) but I'll note that despite his low Int and only 4 points in spellcraft, a blood quickening meditation of Io gives Aries a big enough spellcraft boost to still take 10 on a diagram on days he wishes to do some calling. Same meditation also gives him access to the empower spell feat. This level also brings forth Summoning Mastery, the shining jewel of the SI. Access to the fifth level list is great – and many summons can still enjoy tactical support through low-level options such as darkness or obscuring mist. But it's more than that: Summoning Mastery happens when you pick the monsters. It's not an effect you place or not place on the spell. You cast the spell all the same as every other caster, but when you start picking monsters, your list looks different. That's fundamentally different from, say, metamagic or the like.

And that's crucial, because while Steal Spell doesn't let you apply any metamagic, sudden metamagic, etc effects to spells, you'd still be casting summon monsters – and when picking monsters, you'd still use summoning mastery. So, if Aries steals a Summon Monster from an enemy, he gets the extra oomph. If he snatches a summon monster VII, for instance (which he became able to at exactly this level), he gets to pick options from Summon Monster IX.

Personally for Aries, this is where he discovers his new faith and becomes CE, retraining his now-dead feats for planar touchstone and craft wonderous items. 15 Wis prerequisite comes into use here, allowing access to some high-level divine magic once in a blue moon, in the form of Charm Monster and below in the charm domain list. A 16k Wis-Increasing item in later levels could push it all the way to dominate monster, which is nice. Of course, the granted power itself is awesome, and helps many of his class features on both classes. Craft wondrous item is useful, and easier for a spellthief to take advantage of than to most spontaneous casters – Aries can potentially have access to any spell. However, its most important usage here is to craft the Drake Helm29, allowing him to add up to four spells to his known spellthief spells. This is done by casting spells of the appropriate levels into the item.

He chooses Summon Monster I, II, III, which he can cast himself as a demonologist, thus not needing any outside help to add them to his spellthief list. Yes, he just had these spells as spellthief spells, but he used to only be able to cast them as a spellthief once per day, and now he can cast them as long as he has the spell slots / steals or absorbs spells of the appropriate level. Yes, he can already cast them as a demonologist (it's how they're made, remember?) but now he can also cast them as a spellthief. Yes, that's important.

That can suffice, but a fourth slot isn't that expensive. The fourth spell will depend on which useful spell he happens to steal / have a scroll of / have a body cast for him. I'm not planning for that, since that's obviously harder to control. Glibness and Scrying would both make great choices taken from a bard, though.

As for retraining itself: note that retraining is heavily discouraged in the OP, and that an elegance penalty will be appropriate. I'd like to argue, though, that I'm using retraining just as intended: to represent a shift in the character's outlook and experience, just like the example given in the book. Well, maybe less so for ordered chaos, which implies a heritage that nothing in the build keeps implying once its gone. It's up to you how severely you see this, but at least some elegance penalty is definitely in order.

Level 4, final and craziest level of the crazy power rush of early demonologist. Having CL 15 rather than 4 is still very useful, as is having maxed Cha on a +Cha race – greater bestow curse is an incredibly powerful offensive option, and having a high DC for it is crucial. In a level that has planar binding, greater bestow curse, and so much more, I'd still like to shout out the humble Summon Monster IV. With summoning mastery, it gives Aries access to the Ram-headed Artaaglith30, his favorite monster to summon. You may have met them already this round: Artaagliths are awesome. They have animate dead as an SLA (fun!), and they cast as fifth level clerics, including domains. Their typical prepared spell list shows up in Ghostwalk's 3.5 update (https://web.archive.org/web/20161101074203/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20030607a)17. It's not exactly optimized, and is somewhat superfluous with Aries's own spells, but it's still useful obviously. This level also gives Aries resistances, which kind of steal the thunder from his ability to steal energy resistance – though they might stack, and demonologist doesn't grant sonic resistance.

This level also symbolizes Aries's deeper understanding of his powers, following his discoveries on his past at the Catalogues last level. He can now replace any spell he steals with a lower-level spell from the death domain, which is quite versatile, even if not precisely optimal for what he's doing, up to Cha times per day - and he's got great Charisma. Everything up to create undead is fair play at this level, with destruction coming next level, alongside poison immunity. Aries doesn't need to worship the source of the "divine blood" to get the domain from him, but he still does, as seen in his story.

It's level 17, though, when the proverbial excrement hits the fan. This level grants Summoning Mastery +3. That means access to the 7th level list (Arrow Demon, Babau, all great fun) but it also means you can now summon 1d3 Artaagliths – or one Artaaglith, using Summon Monster 3. One artaaglith. That has two third level slots. With summon monster 3.

Rampocalypse.

You summon a ram. You steal both his prepared 3rd level spells. You use them to cast a third level spellthief spell you know – like summon Monster 3, through your Drake Helm. Rinse and repeat, ad infinitum. Combat ends? Steal the spells from your remaining rams, and cast SM3 again sometime within the coming hour to refresh. You can also steal more of their spells, to cast or to power your own. Infinite rams, and infinite spellthief spells, at the cost of one 3rd level spell slot per day. Keep as many of those stolen spells in your pool as you wish. One is fine to leave yourself open to stealing more spells during encounter, but you can hold two or three if you think you'd want to summon in quick succession.

When summoning mastery +4 kicks in, at your final level, it increases to 1d3 rams from SM3, one from SM2 – so you can summon more, quicker, at the cost of one 2nd level spell slot per day. And normal summoning is still completely accessible – more so, with access to the 7th level list and below essentially at-will. Also, unless you think you're going to need to spam rams really quickly, it also means that you can reduce the place they take in your pool to one 2nd level slot, leaving Aries open to steal up to 9th level spells.

I'll get to the rest of what Aries is doing in his last few levels, but first, as I promised, a few words on calling options for a spellthief.

The two main planar calling spell chains are planar ally and planar binding. You don't control which planar allies you get, so there's not much to be discussed about them – even though Aries has access to them both from sacrifices (the thing we have Sacrificial Mastery for) and semi-natively from level 18 onward. Even though you can't control which monster you get, note that many appropriate outsiders will have the sort of personal-range or self-only SLAs that'd be a blast for Aries to mooch.

Speaking of sacrifices, divine power for 24 hours is very achievable from mid-levels onward with a DC of 25, even without wands such as guidance of the avatar (https://web.archive.org/web/20161101181037/http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a)17 or lore of the gods31, which Aries can use with UMD and that pretty much trivialize the whole affair. Divine power can be very helpful to land the sneak attacks that give him spells. Cat's grace for 24 hours is achievable pretty much from the earliest levels, and makes for a good alternative to Dex-Boosting items - if you have enough people to murder.

Getting back to Planar Binding, the identity of which you can control; Aries has the advantage of very high Cha, with an extra +4 from the charm domain for the Cha Check. Charm demon works great on, well, demons, but Charm monster from the higher-order ability can be used to great effect on other beings, if it's important enough. Soften 'em up with a (greater) bestow curse, too.

Everyone enjoys Planar binding, but having established Aries's great capabilities at actually achieving it, I'm going to look at a few specific examples where he benefits more than others; that is, some monsters to take spells from while they work for you.

Arcanaloths32 have the same alignment as Aries and make for absolutely busted summons anyway, with their Cha not even being that high; they cast as 12th level sorcerers, and Aries can mooch of their spells too, up to 6th level spells. Rakshasa are also fine, if you're looking for something less threatening.

If you want to play with more dangerous game, Aries can bind Ghaele Eladrin, Trumpet Archon, Couatl and the like. Again though, that's just way more dangerous pray. High risk, high reward. In this case, stealing 7th level cleric spells for free.

Back to business. How does Aries utilize Summoning Mastery further?

Well, at level 18 Aries takes heretic of the faith. The Apotheosis part of his fluff above reflects his bonkers worldview, but it makes a lot of internal sense. He qualifies for the feat using his divine casting from his higher-order ability, and he can use it to replace the Bhaal domain (death) he has access to through his Godsblood Spelltheft to the Abyss domain – he's a demonologist, you know. It's what he does.

Every spell he steals (and he can now steal 9th level spells) can be used to cast a lower level Abyss spell, up to his Cha times a day. These include a bunch of powerful offensive spells that can really enjoy his high spell DC and CL, but also include summon Monster V (CE only, fine by him) which means he has access to the summon monster IX list whenever he steals a 6th level spell (like from an Arcanloth, but anytime really)

And Aries still enjoys everything else the class has to offer! A great speaking familiar he can bestow UMD/bluff on and take SLAs from, all his spellslots save one 2nd level, CL 20, 25 Charisma before items for all of the class abilities, full ranks in knowledge (religion) for sacrificial purposes, and planar binding (again enjoying his 25 Cha before items, and Charm Demon of course) which he can use like everyone else, on top of mooching SLAs and spells (including 6th level spells, which means Summon Monster 9) from his called outsiders. Even without those, Aries is a force multiplier for every other caster: if the wizard prepares summon monster IV or V, Aries can summon SM8/9 demons if he casts it for her.

The only thing he misses out on is unfortunately the capstone, but that can't be helped. Besides, he can partially imitate it with limited access to dominate monster if he gets a +4 Wis item, so that somewhat softens the blow.

I think we proved beyond all doubt though, that the real capstone of the class was never Dominate Demon. It was, very much literally –

The friends we made along the way!

Races of the Dragon, page 23.
Complete Adventurer, page 13.
Player's Guide to Faerun, page 41.
Dragon Compendium, page 103.
Complete Divine, page 79.
Faiths of Eberron, page 131.
Spell Compendium, page 281.
Complete Champion, page 72.
Complete Scoundrel, page 90.
Fiendish Codex I, page 86.
Complete Scoundrel, page 79.
Races of the Dragon, Page 32.
Planar Handbook, pages 41-42.
Planar Handbook, pages 166-167.
Spell Compendium, page 271.
Player's Handbook II, page 193.
Web, linked in text.
Lost Empires of Faerun, page 41.
Power of Faerun, page 46.
Spell Compendium, page 282.
Spell Compendium, page 42.
Spell Compendium, page 146.
Spell Compendium, page 194.
Spell Compendium, page 77.
Spell Compendium, page 167.
Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, pages 150-151.
Faiths and Pantheons, page 150.
Races of the Dragon, page 25.
Explorer's Handbook, pages 151-152.
Ghostwalk, page 157.
Complete Champion, page 124.
Monster Manual II, page 203.

The Viscount

2023-11-19, 10:08 PM

Demons are so in.

Esmée’s party or when fun with fiends is not just a web article
https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/b3d55d86-3b75-45ee-899f-d13e6f225310/d9xkatb-d01bb304-81da-4ee3-8d47-62edb88f463c.png/v1/fit/w_680,h_583,q_70,strp/demon_friend_by_dmnt96_d9xkatb-375w-2x.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9. eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZD QxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgy MjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7ImhlaW dodCI6Ijw9NTgzIiwicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvYjNkNTVkODYtM2I3 NS00NWVlLTg5OWYtZDEzZTZmMjI1MzEwXC9kOXhrYXRiLWQwMW JiMzA0LTgxZGEtNGVlMy04ZDQ3LTYyZWRiODhmNDYzYy5wbmci LCJ3aWR0aCI6Ijw9NjgwIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aW NlOmltYWdlLm9wZXJhdGlvbnMiXX0.X7SXf2nN9lFPnv3lMcBT goq07zT4zJssMoJxh5Dbtqk

Alignment : NE
Race : Illumian
Level 1 : Sacrificial Mastery, Evil Brand (Elder Bonus)
Level 3 : Malign Focus Spell
Level 5 : Heighten Spell (Human Bonus), Willing Deformity (Elder Bonus)
Level 6 : Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Level 9 : Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment : Summoner Domain)
Level 10 : Deformity (face) (Elder Evil Bonus)
Level 11 : Augment Summoning (Thaumaturgist Bonus)
Level 12 : Twin Spell
Level 15 : Cloudy Conjuration, Evil’s Blessing (Elder Bonus)
Level 18 : Mindsight
Level 20 : Insane Defiance (Elder Bonus)

Point Buy at level 1
STR 8
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 15
CHA 16 +2 Human Paragon at 5th

Level 4 in Wis, levels 8 to 20 in Cha

Once upon a time, in a small village nestled deep within the forest, lived a young girl named Esmée. She had delicate features, bright eyes, and an infectious smile that charmed the hearts of all who saw her. But despite her outward appearance, Esmée led a solitary life, struggling to make friends with the other children in the village.
Esmée yearned for companionship. She watched the laughter and camaraderie shared by the village children, longing to be a part of their joyful world. Desperation gnawed at her young heart as she wondered why no one seemed interested in her. Was she too strange? Too different? These questions plagued her every waking moment.
One fateful evening, as the sky cast shades of orange and pink, Esmée stumbled upon an ancient book hidden in the dusty attic of her family home. Its pages were full of cryptic symbols and enigmatic verses. Curiosity sparked within Esmée, and she carefully flipped through each page, absorbed by the forbidden knowledge within.
Little did Esmée know that this ancient tome contained secrets that should never have been unearthed. It was a grimoire of dark magic, a gateway to a sinister realm. Fascinated, she found a forbidden spell that promised to summon creatures from the depths of the shadows. An idea began to form in her young mind—a desperate attempt to conjure friends of her own, regardless of their origin.
Reciting the incantation, Esmée placed the pendant upon the ground, pouring her loneliness and longing into every word. The air grew heavy with anticipation, and shadows began to dance around her; the spell worked. From the depths of the abyss emerged eerie beings, cloaked in darkness and whispering strange promises of friendship.
In her jubilation, Esmée failed to notice the warning whispers that filled her mind. The creatures were demons, clever creatures who delighted in the pain and torment of humans. But to the young girl, they appeared as her long-desired friends, offering the connection she craved.
Days turned into weeks, and the demons reveled in their newfound insidious playmate. Esmée grew intoxicated by their dark presence, as their cruel games slowly twisted her innocent mind. What had begun as an innocent desire for friendship now transformed into a dire obsession for power.
Driven by her madness, Esmée turned to the final pages of the grimoire, searching for the most forbidden of spells. Her demagogue soul craved the presence of an Elder Evil, a creature so potent that its name alone evoked fear.
Ignoring the warning signs, Esmée enacted the incantation: a crescendo of forbidden words that reverberated through the world, unsettling life itself. The earth trembled, and a dark figure materialized before her, a twisted creature with burning eyes and cloven hooves.
The Elder Evil's voice echoed within Esmée's mind, promising untold power and control, all to serve its malevolent purpose. As the world teetered on the precipice of annihilation, Esmée had never felt more considered by others ; her friends were really good to her.

LevelClassBase Attack BonusFort SaveReflex SaveWill SaveSkillsFeatsClass Features
1stCloistered Cleric 10202Concentration (+4) 4; Diplomacy (+4) 4; Know (Arcana) (+4) 4; Know (Religion) (+4) 4; Know (the Planes) (+4) 4; Spellcraft (+4) 4; Sacrificial Mastery, Evil Brand (Elder Bonus)Lore, Charm, Knowledge and Spell Domains, Spontaneous Domain Casting (Spell)
2ndCloistered Cleric 21303Concentration (+1) 5; Diplomacy (+1) 5; Know (Arcana) (+1) 5; Know (Religion) (+1) 5; Know (the Planes) (+1) 5; Spellcraft (+1) 5;
3rdCloistered Cleric 31313Concentration (+1) 6; Diplomacy (+1) 6; Know (Arcana) (+1) 6; Know (Religion) (+1) 6; Know (the Planes) (+1) 6; Spellcraft (+1) 6; Malign Focus Spell
4thHuman Paragon 11315Concentration (+1) 7; Diplomacy (+1) 7; Know (Arcana) 6; Know (Religion) (+1) 7; Know (the Planes) (+1) 7; Spellcraft 6; Adaptative Learning
5thHuman Paragon 22316Concentration (+1) 8; Diplomacy (+1) 8; Know (Arcana) 6; Know (Religion) (+1) 8; Know (the Planes) (+1) 8; Spellcraft 6; Heighten Spell (Human Bonus), Willing Deformity (Elder Evil Bonus)Bonus Feat
6thHuman Paragon 33426Concentration (+1) 9; Diplomacy (+1) 9; Know (Arcana) 6; Know (Religion) (+1) 9; Know (the Planes) 8; Spellcraft (+1) 7; Spell Focus (Conjuration)Ability Boost +2
7thDemonologist 13428Concentration 9; Diplomacy (+1) 10; Know (Arcana) 6; Know (Religion) (+1) 10; Know (the Planes) 8; Spellcraft 7; Charm Demon
8thDemonologist 24429Concentration 9; Diplomacy (+1) 11; Know (Arcana) 6; Know (Religion) (+1) 11; Know (the Planes) 8; Spellcraft 7; Quasit Familiar
9thDemonologist 34539Concentration 9; Diplomacy (+1) 12; Know (Arcana) 6; Know (Religion) (+1) 12; Know (the Planes) 8; Spellcraft 7; Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment : Summoner Domain)Summoning Mastery +2
10thThaumatugist 145311Concentration 9; Diplomacy (+1) 13; Know (Arcana) 6; Know (Religion) (+1) 13; Know (the Planes) 8; Spellcraft 7; Deformity (face) (Elder Evil Bonus)Improved Ally
11thThaumatugist 255312Concentration (+2) 11; Diplomacy (+1) 14; Know (Arcana) 6; Know (Religion) (+1) 14; Know (the Planes) 8; Spellcraft 7; Augment Summoning (Thaumaturgist Bonus)Augment Summoning
12thThaumatugist 356412Concentration (+2) 13; Diplomacy (+1) 15; Know (Arcana) 6; Know (Religion) (+1) 15; Know (the Planes) 8; Spellcraft 7; Twin SpellExtended Summoning
13thThaumatugist 466413Concentration (+2) 15; Diplomacy (+1) 16; Know (Arcana) 6; Know (Religion) (+1) 16; Know (the Planes) 8; Spellcraft 7; Contigent Conjuration
14thDemonologist 476414Concentration 15; Diplomacy (+1) 17; Know (Arcana) 6; Know (Religion) (+1) 17; Know (the Planes) 8; Spellcraft (+2) 9; Resistances
15thDemonologist 576414Concentration 15; Diplomacy (+1) 18; Know (Arcana) 6; Know (Religion) (+1) 18; Know (the Planes) 8; Spellcraft (+2) 11; Cloudy Conjuration, Evil's Blessing (Elder Evil Bonus)Poison Immunity
16thDemonologist 687515Concentration 15; Diplomacy (+1) 19; Know (Arcana) 6; Know (Religion) (+1) 19; Know (the Planes) 8; Spellcraft (+2) 13; Summoning Mastery +3
17thDemonologist 787515Concentration 15; Diplomacy (+1) 20; Know (Arcana) 6; Know (Religion) (+1) 20; Know (the Planes) 8; Spellcraft (+2) 15; Hold Demon
18thDemonologist 897516Concentration 15; Diplomacy (+1) 21; Know (Arcana) 6; Know (Religion) (+1) 21; Know (the Planes) 8; Spellcraft (+2) 17; MindsightTelepathy
19thDemonologist 998616Concentration 15; Diplomacy (+1) 22; Know (Arcana) 6; Know (Religion) (+1) 22; Know (the Planes) 8; Spellcraft (+2) 19; Summoning Mastery +4
20thDemonologist 10108617Concentration 15; Diplomacy (+1) 23; Know (Arcana) 6; Know (Religion) (+1) 23; Know (the Planes) 8; Spellcraft (+2) 21; Insane Defiance (Elder Evil Bonus)Dominate Demon

LevelClass0th1st2nd3rd4th5th
1stCleric 131+1
2ndCleric 242+1
3rdCleric 342+11+1
4th
5thCleric 453+12+1
6thCleric 553+12+11+1
7th
8th
9th
10thCleric 653+13+12+1
11thCleric 764+13+12+11+1
12thCleric 864+13+13+12+1
13thCleric 964+14+13+12+11+1

LevelClass1st2nd3rd4th
7thDemonologist 11
8thDemonologist 211
9thDemonologist 3211
10th
11th
12th
13th
14thDemonologist 42211
15thDemonologist 53221
16thDemonologist 63322
17thDemonologist 73332
18thDemonologist 84333
19thDemonologist 94433
20thDemonologist 104443

Level 1 – 5
Cloistered Cleric’s might is obvious to everyone participating in these comps… though maybe not in this Demonologist round. It makes sense because even though we’re going for a Cha-based build, we need 15 Wis as a prereq for Sacrificial Mastery so we might as well go all in.
The high Cha gives us more turn undead attempts which our Illumian’s Naenhoon power sigil can make great use of. The Charm Domain granted power helps too.
6+Int skills, 2 good saves and cleric casting is pretty great even at early level and our two domains are Charm and Spell from which we get the first SoL of the game : Charm Person.
Mage Armor and Silence (early AMF) are the 2 first gems of the Spell domain and they already give an arcane-y feeling to this build especially since Spontaneous Domain lets us cast those spells by expending another prepared spell, on the spot.
Using the Illumian human subtype to get into Human Paragon and while we’re losing a casting level (can only go up to Cleric 9 and not 10, big whoop) we gain significant advantages :
Diplomacy as a permanent class skill, a much needed bonus feat and eventually +2 to Charisma.
Oh and since Esmée is very much into summoning demons and whatnot, he serves the Elder Evil Sertrous which grants him the Evil Brand as a bonus feat (EEp10) as well as Willing Deformity at 5th.

Level 5 – 10
This is where everything falls into place.
Human Paragon 3 grants us 3rd level spells. We’re using Anyspell + Heighten + Naenhoon sigil to qualify for Demonologist (see Notes & Discussions).
The first 3 levels of the SI are giving us a Charm Demon ability and a Quasit Familiar.
The latter can use Commune 1/week in order to get intel of what the gods would rather have as sacrifice in the coming days, ensuring this is conducted to their satisfaction.
Our Cleric casting opens up Sacrificial Skill (BoVD), Lore of the Gods (CC) and Guidance of the Avatar (Web (https://rpg.nobl.ca/dnd.php?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a)) while Demonologist 2 lists Demoncall (BoVD). This translates into a +40 to Know (Religion).
Adding in a masterwork tool and a sacrificial knife (BVoD 113) we have a +45 to the check and that’s even before considering you have the ability to desecrate an area (and unhallow it too later), can conduct the rite on an altar, for over an hour, etc.
You easily get Wish by level 8 and this has to be some kind of record !
What’s more you can conjure up outsider allies as per the Greater Planar Ally reward for a few hours per day at ECL 8 mind you, and we like this so much we enter… Thaumaturgist ! (See Notes & Discussions)
Planar Touchstone takes advantage of the Know (the Planes) 8 prereq we’ve had to fill and we get the Catalogues of Enlightenment (Summoner Domain). This gets us a good +2CL for Conjuration (Summoning/Calling) spells as well as extra summoning spells should we need it because we ran out of slots.
The first level gives us 50% off with a good Diplomacy check and we’re rather good at this. By ECL 10 we have 13 ranks + 4 Cha (no item) +2 Evil’s Brand +2 Deformity (face) meaning we have a 55% chance to turn them helpful. If it fails you can always try to use the Charm Demon ability from the Demonologist for the same effect.

Level 10 – 15
We stay in Thaumaturgist for 4 levels and they’re all worth it. First off, we’re getting 5th level spells, Augment and Extend Summoning are both playing to our strengths and Contingent Summoning is just bonkers ; Summon Monster V scales up to VII via Summoning Mastery meaning Arrow Demons are up (MMIII) with +4 Str/Con and for twice as long.
Twin Spell comes into play meaning that you can use Turn Undead attempts to double the amount of summons you get (both benefiting from Augment Summoning too).
Back to Demonologist to get our 4th level spells including Greater Bestow Curse which is nothing to sneeze at.
Now we’re summoning demons all the time :
Planar Ally Lesser via Cleric casting, Planar Ally (Greater) via sacrificial rituals and Planar Binding via Demonologist. The goal is to summon a Loumara type demon (CE so legal) and have it possess us (given it’s entirely in its nature, it might agree to do it for free as the Planar Ally spell mentions). Then we cast Imprison Possessor and we get a permanent demon inside of us. Sure it can lead to us losing the control of our actions but being CE and whatnot, what’s the worst that could happen ? We can always communicate with the demon (a Dybbuk for instance FCI p36) and threaten to cast Impotent Possessor (and actually do it sometimes since it’s dispellable). Bargain with the demon in the manner of the Extract Gift spell (FCI) while allowing it to have limited control over your actions and get the benefits from the spell as well as the +4 profane bonus it can grant for possessing you.

Level 15 – 20
Finishing the SI we get immunity to poison which is useful for our Cloudy Conjuration feat ; we can hide in a kind of stinkingcloud-lite everytime we cast a conjuration spell which is a lot of times.
We get Mindsight to make good use of our telepathy ability.
Hold Demon is a bit underwhelming (especially the save DC) but Dominate Demon can have its uses considering the amount of summoning we do in a day.
Summoning Mastery culminates at “spell level +4” which means we can have SMVIII via Demonologist and SMIX via Cleric !
Evil’s Blessing is a really good defensive buff and Insane Defiance is a trump card we get from serving Sertrous.
Speaking of, you might just be able to let your Elder Evil friend roam the Material Plane since you get to cast Gate through the Summoner Domain ! Imagine what you can do with this and a bit of Diplomacy (because Improved Ally applies here)!! Of course your CL is 9 in Cleric and 10 in Demonologist is a bit lacking but serving an Elder Evil is all about chaos and destruction ; such a mad character doesn’t really care about controlling anything really.

Cha boosting items are a given. Circlet of Persuasion has its uses too.
Wisdom boosting (+4) is necessary to use the higher order abilities of the Catalogues of Enlightenment.

Sacrificial Knife for the sacrificial rituals (BVoD)

Nightsticks of course (LM)

- Qualifying via Cleric.
Anyspell allows us to choose, prepare and cast an any arcane spell up to 2nd level. This natively takes care of the “able to cast 6 arcane spells of the Conjuration school” as long as we have a spellbook with Grease, Glitterdust, Web, Fog Cloud, Dimension Hop and Benign Transposition for instance.
For the 3rd level arcane conjuration spell, we need Heighten Spell and the Naenhoon power word to upcast a 2nd level arcane spell we have prepared through Anyspell that will effectively be a 3rd level spell for all intents and purposes.
Spontaneous Domain Casting answers the “but you can only do this 1/d” rebuttal that, while not RAW, can be opposed to this method of entry.

- Qualifying for Thaumaturgist.
The Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment : Summoner Domain) says
Once per day, you may cast a spell from the cleric domain you have chosen, as though you had prepared the spell normally. You must be of sufficient character level to cast the spell and have a Wisdom equal to 10 + the spell’s level.
This means we need ECL9 (which is when we get the feat) to be able to cast the required spell to enter Thaumaturgist. What’s more, CAr 72 mentions that in order to enter PrCs that have a specific spell requirement, you just need to be able to mimic the spell’s effect so even though it’s not a true casting of the spell, it ought to be enough.

- Stopping at 15 ranks in Concentration is on purpose since we have +2 from Con (no item) and +2 from the Spell Domain’s Granted Power making this 20 with a nat1 meaning we can cast defensively any spell at our disposal.

RoD - Illumian, Power Sigils
BoVD - Demonologist, Sacrificial Rewards
Spell Compendium - Anyspell, Spell domain
SRD - Charm domain, Thaumaturgist, Heighten Spell
PHB II - Spontaneous Domain Casting
CAr - Twin Spell
PH - Planar Touchstone
CM - Cloudy Conjuration
FCI - Demonic Possession, Extract Gift
GitP - List of all legal Summons (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?444042-Legal-3-5-Summonable-Monster-List) (Solamith is in SMVIII and not SMVII as it is listed in the guide)

The Viscount

2023-11-19, 10:09 PM

If I'm reminded of Yugioh the Abridged series, does that make me juvenile or old?

https://pm1.aminoapps.com/7605/393c0a4f42c0629bee15442ecf5f5fa5b613e985r1-736-830v2_hq.jpg

Abigor knew who he want to be from the very beginning. From childhood he heard voices. Calls of various demons. They cried out to him, promised power and serving. Was this delusions or true demons'? Who knows. But Abigor believed. He knew: to summon demon he need to be trained wizard and not the weakest one. So he became apprentice of on great wizard and all were good until one time he disclosed his true aim. With shame the master drove him out of his disciples and defamed him all over most of his colleagues. Nobody wanted to teach Abigor anymore. And those who were ready, he himself feared those.
Abigor was forced to change his way and take the sword instead of the staff, he was a mercenary now. Years passed. Abigor hired here and there and once he got an interesting recruitment. Caravan guard. Sounds ordinary? Yes, but the caravan itself was not ordinary. It was an interplanar caravan heading through several planes to the City of Doors. It was a rare opportunity he had no right to miss.
Travel was hard, most of the guards died or were lost. Only three out of a few dozen mercenaries have achieved finish. Abigor was one of them. It was a priceless experience. During the journey his magical potential revealed itself from an unexpected side - he found himself able to make supernatural or rather spell-like "travels." Employer said it is called "Jaunter." Some people have an affinity, gift to dimensional traveling and it could reveal if they go through planes.
Gift or not, but Abigor understood - planar travels are too dangerous for him at this moment. His new abilities, however, opened for him one new door - joining the Wayfarers Union. Abigor needed to promote his magical skills and this organization was open for everybody experienced enough to cast teleport and have advanced knowledge in some areas. And his old teacher's defamatory words didn't matter here.
It was a pleasant surprise for Abigor when Wayfarers revealed one of their secrets to him. One slightly secret technique which gives regular members extra teleportation every day. But for Abigor it was much more! It was a true 5th level spell, he could cast. True cast, not as his Jaunter ability. Only thing he needs - get Teleport in his old spellbook - not a problem at all.
This one spell wasn't just a spell. It gave Abigor understanding of high levels of magic and this understanding was enough to become true Demonologist. His aim, his dream was here!

CE Human Focused Specialist High Conjurer Wizard 1/Armored Mage Fighter 4/Jaunter 3/Wayfarer Guide 2/Demonologist 10

Abilities Initial 4th 8th 12th 16th 20th Total
STR 10 10
DEX 14 14
CON 14 1 1 16
INT 14 1 1 16
WIS 14 1 15
CHA 14 14

ECL Class BAB Fort Reflex Will Skills Feats Class Features
1st Focused Specialist High Conjurer Wizard 1 0 0 0 2 20: {+4} Knowledge (arcana): 4; {+4} Knowledge (geography): 4; {+4} Knowledge (religion): 4; {+4} Knowledge (the planes): 4; {+4} Spellcraft: 4; Evil Brand (1), Demon Mastery (H), Augment Summoning (W) Enhanced summoning, summon familiar, school specialisation (Conjuration), prohibited schools (Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion)
2nd Armored Mage Fighter 1 1 2 0 2 5: {+2 CC} Knowledge (arcana): 5; {+2 CC} Knowledge (geography): 5; Knowledge (religion): 4; Knowledge (the planes): 4; {+1} Ride: 1; Spellcraft: 4; Dodge (F) Armored mage (demonologist), bonus feat
3rd Fighter 2 2 3 0 2 5: {+2 CC} Knowledge (arcana): 6; {+2 CC} Knowledge (geography): 6; Knowledge (religion): 4; Knowledge (the planes): 4; {+1} Ride: 2; Spellcraft: 4; Malign Spell Focus (3), Mobility (F) Bonus feat
4th Fighter 3 3 3 1 3 5: {+2 CC} Knowledge (arcana): 7; {+2 CC} Knowledge (geography): 7; Knowledge (religion): 4; Knowledge (the planes): 4; {+1} Ride: 3; Spellcraft: 4;
5th Fighter 4 4 4 1 3 5: {+2 CC} Knowledge (arcana): 8; {+2 CC} Knowledge (geography): 8; Knowledge (religion): 4; Knowledge (the planes): 4; {+1} Ride: 4; Spellcraft: 4; Spring Attack (F) Bonus feat
6th Jaunter 1 4 4 3 3 7: {+2 CC} Knowledge (arcana): 9; {+2 CC} Knowledge (geography): 9; Knowledge (religion): 4; {+2} Knowledge (the planes): 6; Ride: 4; Spellcraft: 4; {+1} Tumble: 1; Sacrificial Mastery (6) Travel power, benign transposition
7th Jaunter 2 5 5 4 4 7: {+1 CC} Knowledge (arcana): 9.5; {+1 CC} Knowledge (geography): 9.5; Knowledge (religion): 4; {+2} Knowledge (the planes): 8; Ride: 4; {+1} Speak Language: 1; Spellcraft: 4; {+2} Tumble: 3; Baleful transposition, fast movement
8th Jaunter 3 6 5 4 4 7: {+1} Concentration: 1; {+1 CC} Knowledge (arcana): 10; {+1 CC} Knowledge (geography): 10; Knowledge (religion): 4; Knowledge (the planes): 8; Ride: 4; {+2} Speak Language: 3; Spellcraft: 4; {+2} Tumble: 5; Dimension door, teleport
9th Wayfarer Guide 1 6 5 4 6 5: {+1} Concentration: 2; Knowledge (arcana): 10; Knowledge (geography): 10; {+3} Knowledge (religion): 7; Knowledge (the planes): 8; Ride: 4; Speak Language: 3; {+1} Spellcraft: 5; Tumble: 5; Cloudy Conjuration (9) Enhanced capacity, improved range
10th Wayfarer Guide 2 7 5 4 7 5: {+2} Concentration: 4; Knowledge (arcana): 10; Knowledge (geography): 10; Knowledge (religion): 7; Knowledge (the planes): 8; Ride: 4; Speak Language: 3; {+3} Spellcraft: 8; Tumble: 5; Extra teleportation
11th Demonologist 1 7 5 4 9 7: {+1} Bluff: 1; {+1} Concentration: 5; {+3} Intimidate: 3; Knowledge (arcana): 10; Knowledge (geography): 10; {+1} Knowledge (religion): 8; Knowledge (the planes): 8; Ride: 4; Speak Language: 3; {+1} Spellcraft: 9; Tumble: 5; Charm demon
12th Demonologist 2 8 5 4 10 8: {+1} Bluff: 2; {+1} Concentration: 6; {+3} Intimidate: 6; Knowledge (arcana): 10; Knowledge (geography): 10; {+2} Knowledge (religion): 10; Knowledge (the planes): 8; Ride: 4; Speak Language: 3; {+1} Spellcraft: 10; Tumble: 5; Versatile Spellcaster (12) Quasit familiar
13th Demonologist 3 8 6 5 10 8: {+1} Bluff: 3; {+1} Concentration: 7; {+3} Intimidate: 9; Knowledge (arcana): 10; Knowledge (geography): 10; {+2} Knowledge (religion): 12; Knowledge (the planes): 8; Ride: 4; Speak Language: 3; {+1} Spellcraft: 11; Tumble: 5; Summoning mastery +2
14th Demonologist 4 9 6 5 11 8: {+1} Bluff: 4; {+2} Concentration: 9; {+2} Intimidate: 11; Knowledge (arcana): 10; Knowledge (geography): 10; {+2} Knowledge (religion): 14; Knowledge (the planes): 8; Ride: 4; Speak Language: 3; {+1} Spellcraft: 12; Tumble: 5; Resistances
15th Demonologist 5 9 6 5 11 8: {+1} Bluff: 5; {+1} Concentration: 10; {+2} Intimidate: 13; Knowledge (arcana): 10; Knowledge (geography): 10; {+3} Knowledge (religion): 17; Knowledge (the planes): 8; Ride: 4; Speak Language: 3; {+1} Spellcraft: 13; Tumble: 5; Practiced Spellcaster (demonologist) (15) Poison immunity
16th Demonologist 6 10 7 6 12 8: {+1} Bluff: 6; {+2} Concentration: 12; {+2} Intimidate: 15; Knowledge (arcana): 10; Knowledge (geography): 10; {+2} Knowledge (religion): 19; Knowledge (the planes): 8; Ride: 4; Speak Language: 3; {+1} Spellcraft: 14; Tumble: 5; Summoning mastery +3
17th Demonologist 7 10 7 6 12 8: {+1} Bluff: 7; {+2} Concentration: 14; {+3} Intimidate: 18; Knowledge (arcana): 10; Knowledge (geography): 10; {+1} Knowledge (religion): 20; Knowledge (the planes): 8; Ride: 4; Speak Language: 3; {+1} Spellcraft: 15; Tumble: 5; Hold demon
18th Demonologist 8 11 7 6 13 8: {+1} Bluff: 8; {+2} Concentration: 16; {+1} Intimidate: 19; Knowledge (arcana): 10; Knowledge (geography): 10; {+1} Knowledge (religion): 21; Knowledge (the planes): 8; Ride: 4; Speak Language: 3; {+1} Spellcraft: 16; Tumble: 5; {+2} False Theurgy; Arcane Disciple (Summoner) (18) Telepathy
19th Demonologist 9 11 8 7 13 8: {+1} Bluff: 9; {+2} Concentration: 18; {+2} Intimidate: 21; Knowledge (arcana): 10; Knowledge (geography): 10; {+1} Knowledge (religion): 22; Knowledge (the planes): 8; Ride: 4; Speak Language: 3; {+2} Spellcraft: 18; Tumble: 5; False Theurgy; Summoning mastery +4
20th Demonologist 10 12 8 7 14 8: {+1} Bluff: 10; {+2} Concentration: 20; {+2} Intimidate: 23; Knowledge (arcana): 10; Knowledge (geography): 10; {+1} Knowledge (religion): 23; Knowledge (the planes): 8; Ride: 4; Speak Language: 3; {+2} Spellcraft: 20; Tumble: 5; False Theurgy; Dominate demon
Languages: Common, Draconic, Elven, Abyssal, Infernal, Celestial.

Level Class 0th 1st 5th
1st Wizard 2+2 0+2+1
9th Wizard 3+2 1+2+1
10th Wizard 3+2 1+2+1 1
Spell known.
1: Mage Armor, Shield, Summon Monster I, Wall of Smoke (Spell Compendium, p. 235), Black Bag (Book of Vile Darkness, p. 86), Nether Trail (Book of Vile Darkness, p. 99), Create Trap (Races of the Dragon, p. 112)
5: Teleport

Wizard 1/Fighter 4. Not a great caster, but can something, mostly hit-and-run type melee fighter with the best weapon he could find. Feats and skill allocation look strange, yes.
Jaunter 3/Wayfarer Guide 2 on top of base classes. These two prestige classes greatly increase my mobility and fully close prerequisites for SI. Thanks for wizard, I'm not limited in the levels of spells that I can write in my spellbook from scrolls and could cast Teleport now.
Feats and skills? Still strange. Prerequisites or for growing.
SI here! Obvious banger is Summoning mastery. Cool point is I don't just use it like all regular Demonologists, I also have the ability to cast 5th level spells via Versatile Spellcaster and know Summon Monster V via Arcane Disciple (Summoner) (I gave my allegiance to the Great Mother of all gods). This effectively means SM IX once per day.
Since I had to have Wis 15 for Sacrificial Mastery, I decide to use it for something beneficial.

Quasit familiar is another cool ability. It devours my familiar and I "suffers no experience point loss?" Ok. What will happen if I obtain a new one? Looks like quasit devours it, too, and I again "suffers no experience point loss." Do you know what I'm thinking about? Yes, I'm thinking about sacrifice.
There are these lines in the Typical Sacrifice Elements table:
Sacrifice Element Knowledge (Religion) Modifier
Sacrifice loses extremities to hungry demon prior to death +1
Sacrifice is pure or virginal (as determined by the DM) +1
Sacrifice has 11–15 HD or levels +3
Sacrifice has 16+ HD or levels +4
It all could be true for my familiar. Yes, I need a full day to obtain a new one, but free sacrifice could be worth the time.

Telepathy is good for summoner type to give commands without revealing it to foes.

Dominate demon and Charm demon could work with demons called via Planar Ally.

Spells apart from Summon Monsters I-IV and Planar Bindings are mostly just spells. Some are useful, some not very. Maybe Call Nightmare has some synergy with my few Ride ranks.

Type Name Book Page
Race Human PHB 12
Class Wizard PHB 55
Class Fighter PHB 37
Prestige Class Jaunter Expedition to the Demonweb Pits 172
Prestige Class Wayfarer Guide Complete Arcane 65
Prestige Class Demonologist Book of Vile Darkness 54
Class variant Focused Specialist Complete Mage 34
Class variant High Conjurer Unearthed Arcana 60
Class variant Armored Mage Complete Mage 32
Feat Evil Brand Fiendish Codex I 85
Feat Demon Mastery Fiendish Codex I 85
Feat Augment Summoning PHB 89
Feat Dodge PHB 93
Feat Mobility PHB 98
Feat Spring Attack PHB 100
Feat Sacrificial Mastery Book of Vile Darkness 50
Feat Cloudy Conjuration Complete Mage 40
Feat Malign Spell Focus Book of Vile Darkness 49
Feat Versatile Spellcaster Races of the Dragon 101
Feat Practiced Spellcaster Complete Arcane 82
Feat Arcane Disciple Complete Divine 79
Domain Summoner Spell Compendium 281
Skill Trick False Theurgy Complete Scoundrel 86

The Viscount

2023-11-19, 10:10 PM

Enjoy our excellent entries for this round! Judges, over to you!

H_H_F_F

2023-11-20, 03:13 AM

Looking forward to reading these!

remetagross

2023-11-20, 08:30 AM

Wow, lots of creative stuff in here. Congrats to all contestants!

My first idea revolved around calling possessor demons to have them forcibly make their host pronounce Dark Speech words to kill them on the spot. But any full caster did that way better than Demonologist.

My second idea was to have a Lawful Evil Demonologist (with Ordered Chaos) that would secretely be fighting for the devils' side of the Blood War. Starting out as any race with the Outsider type and sharing Alter Self with its familiar, the character would turn into a (apparently, forcibly called) tanar'ri and the quasit into a Neraph Demonologist. The telepathy, immunity to poison and energy resistance of the class would help the PC pass for a true demon. Then, they would call real tanar'ris and the PC would convince them (with their host of demon-oriented SLA's) to accept whatever mission the Quasit was assigning to them by pretexting that they would later team up to betray the "Demonologist". This way, the PC would churn through demons and destroy them by convincing them to embark on various suicidal missions / outright sacrificing them.

loky1109

2023-11-20, 08:56 AM

Table!

# Name Alignment / Race Class Levels Chef Total Place
1 Darcy Covenant (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25910960&postcount=75) CE Ice Gnome Gnome Fey Bard 6/ Wild Soul 2/Demonologist 9/Sublime Chord 2/Candle Caster 1
2 The Great Horned Toad (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25910961&postcount=76) CE Neraph Binder 2/High Conjurer Wizard 3/Dread Witch 4/Demonologist 10/Geometer 1
3 Aries Darantas (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25910962&postcount=77) NE🠆CE Human🠆Spellscale Spellthief 11/Demonologist 9
4 Esmée (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25910964&postcount=78) NE Illumian Spontaneous Domain Casting Cloistered Cleric 3/Human Paragon 3/Demonologist 10/Thaumatugist 4
5 Abigor the Tormentor (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25910967&postcount=79) CE Human Focused Specialist High Conjurer Wizard 1/Armored Mage Fighter 4/Jaunter 3/Wayfarer Guide 2/Demonologist 10

WhamBamSam

2023-11-20, 09:53 AM

loky1109

2023-11-20, 09:58 AM

I had idea to enter SI via Wizard 5 and finish with Demonologist 10/Shadowcaster 10, but I didn't find what to do with Shadowcaster.

H_H_F_F

2023-11-20, 10:28 AM

Had intended on doing a full write up of this build (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24780720&postcount=2), who was also a major NPC in a game that I ran, but life sort of got in the way.

Planar cohort doesn't work for Iron Chef... would you go with the alternative +5 singer of concordance?

Hope that life getting in the way wasn't too destructive!

Khatoblepas

2023-11-20, 11:35 AM

My idea was Drider 10/Conjurer 1/Demonologist 4, and using the sacrifice rules to get a wish to turn back into a lesser drow, leading to:
Conjurer 1/Demonologist 9/Prestige Bard 1/Eunuch Warlock X
To get all the bard spells up to 6th level on a demonologist chassis and perhaps boost myself up to 9th level spells with Versatile Spellcaster and Sand Shaper, since Demonologist knows all the spells on its spell list like a warmage. But, I looked at the OA update for Eunuch Warlock and it was far less interesting and didn't give you bonus spell slots, so it wasn't worth getting chewed out on Elegance yet again. I considered Sublime Chord but it just felt a little boring, so no entry from me this time.

loky1109

2023-11-20, 11:39 AM

daremetoidareyo

2023-11-20, 12:33 PM

H_H_F_F

2023-11-20, 12:59 PM

I had a healing domain wizard 7 into fleshwarper 3/ then demonologist. The idea being that you can use extract demon essence on your quasit to create grafts to heal people. It has a healer becoming more and more egomaniacal in the quest for medical success

Wouldn't demonologist 2 suffice for that, though? Seems like you'd have a hard time justifying at the very least levels 5-10 (which, granted, are the hard part to justify on any build)

FactualArcher

2023-11-20, 02:25 PM

The builds look really cool. I’m excited to start judging, and with only five entries, hopefully I can finish this week.

H_H_F_F

2023-11-20, 02:28 PM

That'd be marvelous!

Are we also expecting judgement from Beni-Kujaku?

Paragon

2023-11-20, 05:23 PM

I'm outting this now that it's over but someone I discussed this comp with was trying to get Nar Demonbinder over Demonologist to be able to get the SMX or XI and discuss whether it would summons lots of SMIX monsters.

Think what you will of this but HH you torpedoed the concept on the thread and we just ended up losing what I know would have been a fun contribution to the comp.
It's not so much a reproach as a warning that even what seems innocuous to us, or a non-possibility can actually be someone's idea so please let's be vigilant about the "no discussing ideas" clause.

PS : They were going with a Shai'r entry and the fact the Quasit would eat your gen meaning you'd lose spellcasting ; once you're a demonologist, there's not going back !

H_H_F_F

2023-11-20, 05:27 PM

Think what you will of this but HH you torpedoed the concept on the thread

I did? Or is HH someone else in this context?

Edit: oh, just realized what we're talking about, sorry. I thought you said I torpedoed the idea of going Nar Demonbinder.

Hmm. At the time, I felt that a rules question was openly floated in the thread, and I responded. It seems to me that if one wants to ask the chair a rules question, they can PM the chair - and if they ask it in the thread, and I think there's a clear answer, I'll usually respond - with the assumption that we'll either get a chair ruling, or it'll be up to the judges.

To me, that particular question felt more like the sort we discussed when we were discussing, say, Arcane Duelist's maximum reduction. Not a particular build idea per se, but something that's very obviously going to come up, has come up, and was worthy of discussion.

I'm somewhat wary about going too overboard with the speculation rules (I know some are of the opinion that we already have) but I definitely never meant to harsh anyone's buzz.

I can see the argument that the only response to any rules question should be "chair, is it up to the judges or do you want to make a ruling?"

On the other hand, this is a community game, and I feel that we should be able to voice our opinions on rules discussions, and even on rulings.

I'll think it over, and I really apologize for being inconsiderate, either way.

Paragon

2023-11-21, 02:49 AM

I did? Or is HH someone else in this context?

Edit: oh, just realized what we're talking about, sorry. I thought you said I torpedoed the idea of going Nar Demonbinder.

Hmm. At the time, I felt that a rules question was openly floated in the thread, and I responded. It seems to me that if one wants to ask the chair a rules question, they can PM the chair - and if they ask it in the thread, and I think there's a clear answer, I'll usually respond - with the assumption that we'll either get a chair ruling, or it'll be up to the judges.

To me, that particular question felt more like the sort we discussed when we were discussing, say, Arcane Duelist's maximum reduction. Not a particular build idea per se, but something that's very obviously going to come up, has come up, and was worthy of discussion.

I'm somewhat wary about going too overboard with the speculation rules (I know some are of the opinion that we already have) but I definitely never meant to harsh anyone's buzz.

I can see the argument that the only response to any rules question should be "chair, is it up to the judges or do you want to make a ruling?"

On the other hand, this is a community game, and I feel that we should be able to voice our opinions on rules discussions, and even on rulings.

I'll think it over, and I really apologize for being inconsiderate, either way.

I get your point too, it's a very gray area. I'm just saying that this time it had some consequence (that I know of).
Maybe it is best to leave it to either the chair or the judges but refrain from discussing pretty much anything in thread

Another way to do this would be to ask a question on the forum on in the RAW thread ? Personally I ask stuff like this all the time on the discord server or PM specific people to talk about it.

Really not trying to point fingers ; it just so happens it was you this time but it might very well have been me and I'd voice it out all the same.

H_H_F_F

2023-11-21, 03:14 AM

Inevitability

2023-11-21, 05:05 AM

Hm, I see the argument that people aiming for upcast Summon Monsters might've been scared off by H_H_F_F's comments, but at the same time, I do think that we need to beware of making this a bigger issue than it is. Yes, if someone posts 'X does not work' in the thread, it might be scary to go for a build that relies on X... but that's always going to be the risk with rules-ambiguous situations. As far as we knew at that point in time, H_H_F_F was going to submit a build, meaning you'd only been going against a fellow competitor's opinions - if he was a potential judge, perhaps things would be different.

Obviously if someone asks a rules question, it's best to err very strongly on the side of no speculation, but if someone slips up and answers anyway, don't let that torpedo your build IMO.

Inevitability

2023-11-21, 05:24 AM

On a more positive note, big fan of all the entries! A lot more diverse than I initially thought, several classes that I thought we'd see for sure are utterly missing here.

----------------------------

I must say: a little disappointed to see no Death Master (DrComp). The fluff fits perfectly, the level 5 benefit goes great with artaaglith spam, it gets rebuking and has an easier time entering than dread necro, and it is one of the very few classes in the game that already gets mechanical benefits for sacrificing creatures.

Also, I almost made a wizard 3 / fighter 2 / havoc mage 3 / runesmith 2 / demonologist 10 whose strategy was based around Despana School, of all things. Full-round to cast a 4th-level or lower spell (aka Summon Monster 8) and attack against the now-flanked target, hit and give all your summoned creatures +2 morale on attacks and damage. Probably one of the best Despana School use cases thinkable - and it would still have been bad.

----------------------------

The main third stub I was cooking up relied on using Improved Sigil Krau + Precocious Apprentice to get in with only a single wizard level, and then later switch the Krau-enhanced spells and argue that because Summoning Mastery cared about spell level rather than spell effect, a Krau-boosted SMIV would actually pull from the 9th-level list.

To enter I needed 5 feats (ISK + PA + Sacrificial Mastery + Evil Brand + Malign Spell Focus). To obtain them without elder evil worship or flaws, I was thinking human paragon 1 / wizard 1 / favored soul 3 / human paragon +1, using the fighter bonus feat wizard variant to grab Weapon Focus with Human Paragon's free martial weapon proficiency, then using Favored Soul 3's duplicate feat clause to swap it out for any of the prereqs I needed. As a bonus, this gives me 4th-level favored soul casting and thus 2nd-level spells from the cleric list. From there, I could go Demonologist 9 / Geomancer 5 and get the ability to cast all my demonologist spells in armor. Or maybe go Durthan 3 for the cool incorporeal animal companion, or Contemplative / Divine Agent to grab some domains. I wanted to go Eunuch Warlock at first (again using Krau shenanigans to qualify), but decided against that after realizing the update made it much less useful. Free Empower on SMIV still would've been nice though, I suppose.

H_H_F_F

2023-11-21, 05:34 AM

The "boring" ideas I was toying with were a conjurer/demonologist/nar demonbinder (before realizing I already had planar binding from demonologist), and a duskblade 13/ demonologist 1/ many ideas for the last 6 levels, to do a whirlwind whip attack with as much reach as possible loaded with bestow greater curse. Felt too situational, cared only about the underleveled spells, and only utilized a couple in a way that was beyond any other demonologist. The only temptation was finally getting to do duskblade 13.

Paragon

2023-11-21, 04:40 PM

I see your point, and I don't feel like you're pointing fingers or anything; I just feel that we need to decide as a community where we stand on these issues. Should rules question never be brought up in the thread, except by the chair? Should this extend to arguing against the chair's rulings and readings of certain abilities? Should "no speculation" become "no discussion?"

Let's not Strawman this haha. No speculation should simply include our personal take on how clearly-unexpected-rule-interactions work. That's all ^^

Hm, I see the argument that people aiming for upcast Summon Monsters might've been scared off by H_H_F_F's comments, but at the same time, I do think that we need to beware of making this a bigger issue than it is. Yes, if someone posts 'X does not work' in the thread, it might be scary to go for a build that relies on X... but that's always going to be the risk with rules-ambiguous situations. As far as we knew at that point in time, H_H_F_F was going to submit a build, meaning you'd only been going against a fellow competitor's opinions - if he was a potential judge, perhaps things would be different.

Obviously if someone asks a rules question, it's best to err very strongly on the side of no speculation, but if someone slips up and answers anyway, don't let that torpedo your build IMO.

I'm not saying this is an unsolvable matter because, indeed, you're right. I'm saying the aura of someone who has the experience of years of building stuff, is very present of the forum etc. can scare away newcomers (which we're in dire need of). Let's just extend the no speculation rule on "raw-ish decisions" that only the Viscount or the future judges will resolve.

H_H_F_F

2023-11-21, 06:20 PM

Let's not Strawman this haha. No speculation should simply include our personal take on how clearly-unexpected-rule-interactions work. That's all ^^

Wasn't trying to strawman you; the no discussion comment wasn't meant as a representation of the suggestions before it, but the "next step in line" if you will.

Could you elaborate on what you mean by clearly-unexpected-rule-interactions?

FactualArcher

2023-11-22, 08:23 PM

Judging update:
I've finished 3 out of 5 entries, and I'm hoping to finish late tomorrow, or if not Friday.
I must say, I've picked a good round to judge. Only five entries is nice, and all of them are quite solid.

Also, random question. What is the status of the Wheel of Time Roleplaying Game in these contests? As far as I can tell, it was published by WotC, though I've never seen it used before. Seems like there's some interesting stuff in there.

H_H_F_F

2023-11-23, 04:37 AM

Thanks for the update, FactualArcher!

I'll also update that our entries have been submitted to the spreadsheet.

Also, random question. What is the status of the Wheel of Time Roleplaying Game in these contests? As far as I can tell, it was published by WotC, though I've never seen it used before. Seems like there's some interesting stuff in there.

Am I wrong that it's just a different game, albeit similar to D&D 3.5? I haven't looked at the books, but that's my recollection.

The Viscount

2023-11-23, 07:15 AM

My impression is that they aren't compatible, but if there's more information I'm willing to reconsider.

H_H_F_F

2023-11-23, 11:33 AM

Do we have anyone else judging / intending ti judge other than FactualArcher?

Inevitability

2023-11-23, 11:46 AM

Do we have anyone else judging / intending ti judge other than FactualArcher?

(and if you're new to the whole judging business and don't know where to start, might I point towards the link in my signature?)

FactualArcher

2023-11-23, 12:50 PM

Judging incoming!

Originality 3.5
-Gnomes are pretty common, especially for casters, though the Ice variant eases the sting a good bit. +0
-Bard was an entry I considered, but it’s hardly the expected one. Sublime Chord is one of the first that came to mind when thinking of ways to get Summon Monster IX. Though you don’t just use it for that, it’s still one of the most obvious ways to use Demonologist. Candle Caster is basically never seen, however, and Wild Soul is pretty rare. Overall, more or less a wash. +0.0
-Fade into Violence shows up occasionally, but not much, as does Craft Wondrous Item. Versatile Spellcaster is very common, though. Pretty much all of your skills are pre reqs, and for the unique ones, Craft Candle Making and Astrology, you don’t go at all past the break points. Fiendform and Halaster’s Fetch are pretty rare in optimization settings. Overall, somewhat interesting. +0.25
-While the focus on minionmancy is pretty expected for a Demonologist, but the way you go about it, via Halaster’s Fetch Optimization, is pretty new. +0.25

Power 3.75
-You suffer a bit during the mid levels, but make it up towards the later levels. You also have some trouble if there’s a lack of downtime, but your power is devastating when you have it. Overall, fairly even compared to average summoner power without prep time, but above it when you have it. +0.25
-Most of your spells are downtime based, but you do have some trouble stretching your sublime chord slots on a given day. Still, you’ll always have something to do. +0.25
-Familiar and your skills make for decent scouts, and your vast array of called creatures is very helpful. Still, you can’t afford to use summoned monsters for everything and your skills are somewhat half hearted. +0.25
-Your personal defenses are quite weak, with only a good will save, but that’s more or less par for the course for a wizard type, and your summons and called allies make for decent bodyguards. +0

Elegance 4.25
-I can’t find anything illegal in your build. +0
-Your Halaster’s Fetch Trick seems ambiguous to me. While I agree it probably works, I think a lot of DMs would have problems with it. -0.5
-You have exactly five classes and one one level dip, so by my metric you’re just barely okay. Your classes fit thematically well, which is nice. +0
-You can craft most of your own items and don’t rely on any in particular. Quite nice. +0
-Your skill table confused me for a minute, but it is actually perfectly fine. Most of your sources are all listed as well, but a few key spells such as fiendform aren’t cited on the table. -0.25

Use of the Secret Ingredient 3.75
-The whole Halaster’s Fetch VII is unique to Demonologist and is in theme for the prestige class. Nothing else you use is super interesting, but it is undeniably a nice trick. +0.5
-Halaster’s Fetch VII is nice, and you have great synergy with your familiar, but on the whole, no innovative tricks that I didn’t give points for earlier. +0.25
-You basically only mention familiar and summoning mastery in your writeup, with everything else getting a passing mention at best. You don’t have anything that even synergizes particularly well with your familiar other than your slightly above average skills. Still, you find room for the SLAs on most days, and passive resistances are impossible to really showcase. Your ability to pretend to be a low ranking servant via telepathy is worth a bonus. +0.25
-Your qualification is unquestionably legal. However, you enter a little later than you could have and don’t quite take the entire class. Overall, less than ideal. -0.25

Notes: This was a solid and thematic entry. It felt pretty straightforward, with only one trick that I didn’t more or less expect, but it was well put together and actually had a good reason to take Demonologist.

Originality 3.25
-Neraph is a middle popularity choice, with a few unique feats and the ever useful outsider type, but it’s not really expected in a caster round when not being used for Alter Self shenanigans. +0.25
-Binder wasn’t particularly expected for this round, but wizard is one of the obvious entries, along with sorcerer. Dread Witch is a pretty popular prestige class, though it’s not an obvious pick for the round. Geometer isn’t something I’ve heard of before, though it is a full casting class. Some original and some common pretty much cancel out. +0
-Feats are an interesting mix. Arcane Disciple is popular, especially in a round for arcane casters that need wisdom. Insane Defiance is pretty rare, but I’ve seen it used occasionally. I hadn’t heard of chosen of Evil before, and Charnel Miasma is new to me. Skills and spells are pretty standard fare. A binder dip for Naberius is notorious, particularly when combined with drug use. +0
-Spamming low level spells from Dread Witch is definitely an interesting trick, though I’m pretty sure I’ve seen similar variants used. +0

Power 4
-You can do your job as a summoner very well later on, but you do suffer a bit in the early and middle levels before the absorb fear combo comes on line all the way at ECL 15. Very strong late game and medium early and mid game is about par. +0.25
-You have incredible stamina due to the absorb fear thing, far better than most full casters. While second level spell slots aren’t amazing, access to the whole Demonologist list makes them a lot better. +0.5
-Outside combat, you can’t do too much without magic. Your skills are lackluster, but your ability to spam low level spells makes up for your lack of netmagic solutions, allowing you to solve problems with cheap magic. That said, you can’t really do this for most levels, and even with Naberius you can’t really be a face. +0.25
-Your will save is fantastic, though your other defenses are weak. Still, this is to be expected for a wizard type, and binder does help a tad. +0

Elegance 3.75
-Your Charnel Miasma combo is illegal. It only targets “one foe within 30 feet” meaning you can’t target this on yourself. That makes most of your main combo illegal, as you obviously aren’t your own foe. Foe isn't a defined term, which saves you some points. -1
(I’m invoking the add/subtract more clause I put in my rubric here because while the build itself isn’t illegal, the main combo is and that needs to be addressed.
-Glyph of Warding inherits your caster level, though it doesn’t say anything about class features applying to the spell. It’s probably fine, but just ambiguous enough for me to assign a small penalty. -0.25
-Just like Darcy, you have 5 classes and one one level dip. I’m starting to wonder if you guys paid attention to my rubric. I’m tempted to count the binder thing as a dip, but my rubric is clear, so you escape without penalty. +0
-You can craft your own glyphs and don’t particularly need items, so you do well in this category.
-Your entry is neat, and while you didn’t cite the pre-reqs for the class, that’s not worth a penalty. I don’t need to be a jerk about this. +0

Use of the Secret Ingredient 3
-Demonologist doesn’t really do anything totally unique for you. Summon Mastery is nice, but if your goal was mainly the under leveled spells Chameleon or Archivist would have wasted less of your time and served you far better. The Artaagliths take a while to come online, but they're really nice when they get there. +0
-Summoning Mastery+Glyph of Warding is nice, and a good way to win high level battles, though it doesn’t come on until fairly late. +0.25
-You only use Summoning Mastery and the familiar, and you barely even optimize the unique demonic aspects of it. You mention Telepathy and Charm Monster once a piece, and don’t even seem to mention the rest at all. The mileage you get out of spellcasting softens this somewhat. Insane Defiance and Dominate Demon combo well enough to bring you back to+0
-Your qualification is late, and while you finish the class, it feels half hearted and doesn’t contribute anything unique to your main trick, which relies purely on Dread Witch and feats. -0.25

I really liked the concept of the build, and the flavor text was quite creepy. However, I feel like it doesn’t actually have a mechanical reason to be in Demonologist and a few rules errors keep it from really coming together.

Originality 3.75
-Human is the most obvious choice for pretty much anything, but switching to the seldom seen spellscale cancels the penalty. +0
-Spellthief is pretty rare, especially for an ingredient that caters to full casters, and since it’s your only non SI class, you do well here. Also, my compliments for making spellthief work. It was one of the entry paths I considered and then discarded. +0.5
-Master Spellthief and Godsblood Spelltheft are pretty common for Spellthieves, and Planar Touchstone (Catalogs of Enlightenment) and Heretic of the Faith are fairly popular and ripe for abuse. Ordered Chaos is somewhat common, but Magical Training is quite rare and Penumbra Bloodline is rarer still. Your spells are pretty standard, and the focus on Ataaglith’s is somewhat common. Your skills are a bit interesting, due to your spellthief background, but there’s not really that much going on. -0.25, mostly for the popular feats.
-Some nice fluff, and the chained Artaaglith summoning thing are enough to earn you full points in this category. +0.5

Power 3.75
-You shift from a roguish role with spellthief to a full caster-ish character, but throughout the whole range you can do what you need to pretty effectively, though your lack of roguish skills in the early levels does hurt a little. Still, there are no levels where you are significantly behind the curve, and that’s nice. +0.5
-Like The Great Horned Toad, you have fantastic stamina for a caster due to your Rampocalypse trick letting you spam spells for the whole day. +0.5
-Outside combat, you can’t do a ton. The lack of wizard casting and instead the more narrow spellthief list limits your versatility. With Bluff and Use Magic device you can do a little, and your summons give you some options. Overall, average. +0
-Even for a wizard type, your defenses are pretty bad. No good saves except for will, and your con is 8 for most of the time. Not ideal. -0.25

Elegance 2.751.75
-First of, -1 -2 for the flaws as per the contest rules
-Everything is basically legal, though as you yourself point out, cross setting materials won’t fly in a lot of places. You make fairly heavy use of them, so -0.5
-Retraining is also discouraged, as you again point out. -1 for that.
-Nice low number of classes. Qualifying class 11/SI 9 is nice and neat.
-Also, a nice neat entry with all the sources cited.
-I’m a fan of being able to craft the only item you really need. Full marks on lack of item reliance. +0
-Also, as a thank you for specifically calling out the questionable rules you used, have +0.25. I think it’s kind when chef’s do this, as it saves time and pain for the judge, and I want to encourage it slightly.

Use of the Secret Ingredient 3.5 4
-As with everyone else, summoning mastery is the most unique thing you get. Still, it’s the best only way for you to enable your Rampocalypse combo. Sublime chord could theoretically work as well, but Demonologist is easier. +0.51
-The aforementioned Rampocalypse is nice, and you have some nice combos with spellthief and Festum as well as with called creatures and steal SLA. Nothing earth shattering, but lots of nice stuff. +0.25
-You make great use of Demonologist’s spells via your hugely boosted caster level. However, you don’t even mention half of the abilities in your writeup. Also, your steal energy resistance ability slightly negates the energy resistance from the class. Overall, you really don’t use a lot of features. -0.25
-You qualify legally, and while you don’t quite finish the class, you qualify as early as a spellthief can, which saves you from a penalty. +0

Notes- I really liked both the fluff of this entry and the mechanics. I’m a big fan of weird spellthief optimization, so I was happy to see this build show up. A lot of questionable rules decisions held the build back, but it was a fun build to read and understand.

Originality 3
-Illumian is a popular race for spellcasting shenanigans, particularly with the Naenhoon sigil. Still, it’s not human. -0.25
-Cloistered Cleric is always popular, though a little less expected in a mostly arcane round. Human Paragon is also almost always expected, even in a mostly arcane round. Thaumaturgist is a divine ish prestige class and pretty rare, but it is still summoning based, so not completely unexpected. It eases the cloistered cleric+human paragon double whammy, but not enough to avoid a penalty entirely. -0.25
-Your feats are all over the place. Cloudy Conjuration and Planar Touchstone are both quite common, as are mindsight and to a lesser extent, Twin Spell. Your vile feats range from uncommon to very rare, canceling out the penalty. +0
-Always being possessed after a certain point is very creepy, and unique enough for decent points.. +0.5

Power 4.25
-Cloistered Cleric is as strong early as it ever is, and by spacing out Demonologist levels, you ensure your summons are basically never behind the curve. Augment Summoning and Illumian metamagic are always useful, making sure you can do what you need to do. +0.5
-With Planar Allies and sacrificing, you have a little stamina, though you run out of high level cloistered cleric spell slots fairly quickly. For instance, for the last several levels, you only have three fifth level slots, assuming you get a magic item. That leaves you short of your most powerful abilities in at least one battle. Not great over all. -0.25
-You have the best skills in the round, and lore will help outside of combat. At high levels, Mindsight makes you a crazy radar, and your access to pretty much every low level spell is great in random situations if you’re willing to go book diving. All in all, full marks. +0.5
-Your vile feats, slightly better saves than everyone else, decent con, ability to wear armor at lower levels, and ability to hide in your own Cloudy Conjurations at high levels are enough for me to award you full points. +0.5

Elegance 3.25
-You don’t have anything illegal in your build. +0
-Devotion to an Elder Evil is a way of getting free feats in a build, and in my opinion this makes it as inelegant as a flaw. -1
-Your method of entry, while slightly annoying to me, is in my opinion unambiguously legal, so you avoid a penalty here. +0
-You keep a low number of classes, only four, and put a solid amount of investment into them, so my compliments for that. +0
-You do require a wisdom item to use some of your spells and Nightsticks or a charisma item to twin a summon twice per day, but overall only a minor penalty. -0.25
-You are missing the sources for a few of your spells, which annoys me, but overall your entry is pretty neat. -0.25
-I wasn’t really sure where to penalize this, but I suppose Elegance will do fine. Your strategy of constantly being possessed by demons seems more trouble than it’s worth. In exchange for a solid bonus to one ability score, you have a chance to lose control of yourself, and while maybe that’s not bad for the typical chaotic evil character, in a game Esmée would be with a party, so that can cause trouble. Also, when the fiend tries to take you over, you are staggered even if you fight it off, which can be devastating for a summoner without rapid summoning. While you can mitigate this with Imprison Possessor and Impotent possessor, that removes the benefits. -0.25

Use of the Secret Ingredient 3.5
-Summon mastery is nice and all, but unlike most of the other entries you don’t do anything completely unique with it and mostly just use it to unlock ninth level spells, which you could have done with cleric. I feel like on the whole you entry would have been better as a Cleric 12/Human Paragon 3/Thaumaturgist 5, and instead of wasting feats on the pre-reqs, could have gotten the soulmeld that gives you telepathy, and casted hero's feast each morning for the cloudy conjuration combo. -0.5
-Demonologist does let you do your whole possession thing, and while I’m skeptical of the benefits as outlined above, that is a trick, so have some points. +0.25
-While I don’t feel you actually need Demonologist, you do make a solid effort to use its abilities. Mindsight is the obvious way to use telepathy, and while using commune to pick out sacrifices isn’t the greatest combo, it’s at least something. Overall, I still feel like the familiar is underutilized. I do like the Cloudy Conjuration-Poison Immunity combo, though, so +0.25.
-You qualify as fast as you can reasonably be expected to and (eventually) take all ten levels, so have full marks here. +0.5

Notes: The concept of this build really creeped me out. I was less of a fan of the mechanics, but it is undeniably powerful, even if Demonologist feels kinda tacked on. As a side note: I was surprised this was the only entry with Mindsight. Most people probably felt it cost points in originality, but to me it makes up for the in Power and UotSI.

Originality 3.5
-Unmodified human is about as expected as can be. -0.5
-However, full marks for classes. Wizard is expected, though only one level isn’t, and fighter, Jaunter and Wayfarer guide come out of nowhere. Jaunter and Fighter are unexpected specifically for this round, but Wayfarer guide is something that I’ve only seen mentioned a few times. +0.5
-Arcane Disciple, Practiced Spellcaster, Versatile Spellcaster, and Cloudy Conjuration are all feats I saw coming, and while Demon Mastery is weak, it does make sense for the SI. But, Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack? Not something I saw coming at all in a non-gishy caster based round. A focus on teleport spells is a little strange in a summoning round, but they are still conjuration. Skills are nothing special. The more expected choices are canceled out by the really unexpected ones. +0
-Your method of entry is completely unexpected, and it shapes your tactics in ways I didn’t anticipate. +0.5

Power 2.5
-You struggle a lot at early levels, as your wizard spellcasting is weak, and your fighter feats aren’t powerful. Even at mid levels, you can’t use your travel power offensively. At high levels, you can basically be a summoner, but you still have trouble bringing the power I’d expect from an optimized summoner to bear. -0.5
-Your stamina is quite low as well. You have only one level appropriate spell slot and only five uses of your jaunter power is less than ideal. In a four fight day, you will have trouble participating in at least a couple of them. -0.5
-Between Jaunter and Wayfarer guide you’re a great taxi for the party and you’re a decent knowledge bank. Some utility over all. +0.25
-Your fighter and jaunter levels boost your AC and fort saves higher than expected, though armored mage only applies to one class. I’m assuming this is wizard, but you don’t actually say. Still, it’s not hard to be tougher than the average wizard, and you do pretty well. You score decent points here. +0.25

Elegance 4.25 5
-You did a good job outlining your weird method of qualification. However, you gave up the ability to summon a familiar at first level as a High Conjurer. While this normally doesn’t matter, it means you can’t do the sacrifice trick you outlined, though I did think it was pretty clever. -0.5
-Armored mage doesn’t work like you think it does. It only works for one spellcasting class, making it basically useless for you after 11th level. I’m not 100% sure what you intended to do with it, but it doesn’t really do much. -0.25
-You don’t have too many classes, so you do fine here. +0
-You don’t need any items to do your thing. +0
-Entry is neat, and your sources are all listed. +0

Use of the Secret Ingredient 3.25
-You basically use Demonologist as a fast progression class to add onto a fairly martial chassis. It’s a little strange, but Demonologist is the best class from a level ten version of Abigor. There’s nothing totally unique here, but you still use the class in an interesting way. +0.25
-Demonologist mostly gives you fast access to planar ally, which you make use of via Demon Mastery, but it doesn’t really help you too much. The familiar trick also helps out some. Overall, you get a decent amount of value. +0.25
-You can only use summoning mastery a few times a day, and you only make passing mention of the rest of your abilities. While you can use pretty much all of them, you don’t have much synergy. -0.25
-Your qualification is legal, but pretty late, which keeps you from getting a bonus. +0

Notes- Abigor is definitely built around Demonologist, but he doesn’t really do anything interesting with it. The wacky entry trick was clever, but I felt like the parts of the build didn’t really synergize. I do really like unexpected entries, but I felt like the Jaunter into Wayfinder guide into Demonologist combo was a little too complicated for the benefits you get from it.

Judging notes overall: This round was fun to judge, with very distinctive entries and methods of entry. One note about power and sacrifices: that whole mechanic is broken, and since everyone in the competition was basically mandated to be able to use it, I didn’t take base level sacrificing shenanigans into account in power, though I realize that everyone is a little more powerful than I may have given them credit for. If you did something particularly interesting with sacrificing, I rewarded it in power.

I was mostly interested if there was a precedent in Iron Chef. I don’t intend to subject any judge to it. On the subject of legality, I legitimately cannot tell if it’s D&D or a different but ridiculously similar system. For instance, it has feats and skills, and they have the same names as ones from D&D, but then everyone has weird save progressions and armor class seems to have been renamed. It’s probably best for it to remain banned, particularly since I just discovered a full BAB prestige class that gives 8d6 sneak attack over ten levels. It’s particularly weird given how weak the rest of the stuff in the book is.

H_H_F_F

2023-11-23, 01:17 PM

Thank you, FactualArcher! A great read.

loky1109

2023-11-23, 02:42 PM

Nice judging FactualArcher! Thank you!

Updated table!

# Name Alignment / Race Class Levels Chef FactualArcher Total Place
1 Darcy Covenant (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25910960&postcount=75) CE Ice Gnome Gnome Fey Bard 6/ Wild Soul 2/Demonologist 9/Sublime Chord 2/Candle Caster 1 14.50 14.50 1st
2 The Great Horned Toad (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25910961&postcount=76) CE Neraph Binder 2/High Conjurer Wizard 3/Dread Witch 4/Demonologist 10/Geometer 1 12.00 12.00 5th
3 Aries Darantas (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25910962&postcount=77) NE🠆CE Human🠆Spellscale Spellthief 11/Demonologist 9 13.25 13.25 4th
4 Esmée (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25910964&postcount=78) NE Illumian Spontaneous Domain Casting Cloistered Cleric 3/Human Paragon 3/Demonologist 10/Thaumatugist 4 14.00 14.00 3rd
5 Abigor the Tormentor (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25910967&postcount=79) CE Human Focused Specialist High Conjurer Wizard 1/Armored Mage Fighter 4/Jaunter 3/Wayfarer Guide 2/Demonologist 10 14.25 14.25 2nd

Updated after disputes.

The Viscount

2023-11-23, 05:30 PM

Wonderful! We're very thankful for your judgments, FactualArcher!

We do have a few disputes.

Hi FactualArcher, thank you so much for judging! Unfortunately, I do have a significant dispute: I took two flaws, not just one. Pathetic and noncombatant. I should be 1 point lower in elegance than I am.

Since I'm already writing to you: How can I achieve Ramopocalypse with Sublime Chord? I honestly didn't think there was any other way to do what I'm doing, which is why I'm surprised. Aartagliths require Summon Monster VI, but you can only steal 3rd level spells from them - either the ****ty ones they come with, or replace them with a spellthief spell you know of the same level. So, if a sublime chord casts summon monster VI, and steals their spells, they can't summon another aartaglith. I don't see how anything except summoning mastery +3 is capable of doing what I'm doing.

I'm asking because I genuinely thought that if anything I did would break the 1 point limit you set, the Rampocalypse would be it - but if it can be done by any other means, I completely get why this isn't the case. I really thought that this was the soul way to achieve this by its own merits, without any unrelated "infinite spellslots" trick.

Bronze was nice while it lasted, but C'est la vie. Thanks again for judging!

Thank you FactualArcher!
I have some points.

though armored mage only applies to one class. I’m assuming this is wizard, but you don’t actually say.
I check it right now and there are "Armored mage (demonologist), bonus feat" in the 2nd level Class Features line.
So this penalty

Armored mage doesn’t work like you think it does. It only works for one spellcasting class, making it basically useless for you after 11th level. I’m not 100% sure what you intended to do with it, but it doesn’t really do much. -0.25
looks not adressed. Abigor from the very beginning was aimed to the Demonologist and it's ok for him to have ASF for his Wizard's spells. On the other hand for his Demonologist's spells he has perfectly enough levels of fighter to cast all of them in light armor and with light shields. He casts up to 5th level spells, and he has 4 levels in fighter. Which make fighter levels double useful.
Before entering Demonologist it doesn't do much, but Abigor has Mage Armor and Shield spells and can let himself not rely on armor, best options anyway should became available at the late levels.

You did a good job outlining your weird method of qualification. However, you gave up the ability to summon a familiar at first level as a High Conjurer. While this normally doesn’t matter, it means you can’t do the sacrifice trick you outlined, though I did think it was pretty clever. -0.5
It isn't true. High Conjurer class variant contains three separate options with separate prices. Familiar is price for Rapid Summoning which I didn't take, I took only free Augmented Summoning feat instead of the Scribe Scroll feat.

And I think both this points could not only remove penalties, but also add something in UoSI section.

Nihilarian

2023-11-23, 08:08 PM

Thanks for the update, FactualArcher!

I'll also update that our entries have been submitted to the spreadsheet.

Am I wrong that it's just a different game, albeit similar to D&D 3.5? I haven't looked at the books, but that's my recollection.WOTrpg is based on 3.0, not 3.5. There's a few oddities when porting it over - the classes have defense bonuses because they aren't assumed to wear armor, and i believe it's light on magic items in general, stuff like that

As far as ironchef goes, my impression of it was the martial classes were boring like early 3.0 and the magic classes obviously use the in book magic system and i'm not sure how much you can really do with it off the beaten path

loky1109

2023-11-23, 09:32 PM

WOTrpg is based on 3.0, not 3.5. There's a few oddities when porting it over - the classes have defense bonuses because they aren't assumed to wear armor, and i believe it's light on magic items in general, stuff like that

As far as ironchef goes, my impression of it was the martial classes were boring like early 3.0 and the magic classes obviously use the in book magic system and i'm not sure how much you can really do with it off the beaten path
Sounds more like d20 Modern than D&D.

Nihilarian

2023-11-23, 10:41 PM

Sounds more like d20 Modern than D&D.its class system is more similar to dnd 3rd than d20 modern's "1 class per ability score, everything is called feats or talents" approach

Nihilarian

2023-11-23, 10:52 PM

If you want to play WoT in 3.5 you should probably just use psionics and tome of battle. All ToB is missing from being the perfect representation of WoT fighting is a stance called Cat Crosses the Courtyard.

loky1109

2023-11-23, 11:29 PM

I found the WoT rulebook, looked at it. No, it isn't D&D, it's separate d20 system. There is some similarly and compatibility like in all 3.x d20 systems, but it's different. Plus as I can see compatibility isn't postulated anywhere in the book.

H_H_F_F

2023-11-24, 04:26 AM

It seems like Abigor is about to shoot up to Bronze - but if he doesn't end up with a medal, let it be known that he's my HM.

FactualArcher

2023-11-24, 07:30 AM

Dispute Responses:

Sorry about the penalty for armored mage. I didn't see it listed in the stat block, but now that I look again, it's definitely there, so the penalty for armored mage goes away. +0.25 elegance.

Now, High Conjurer also works like you think it does, and not like the way I originally ruled. -0.5 penalty removed.

Now for UotSI. The Quasit sacrifice loop is clever, if a little impractical. I think it's enough to give you a +0.25 in UotSI

Totals: Elegance moves from 4.25 to 5, UotSI moves from 3 to 3.25, total score moves from 13.25 to 14.25.

Hi Aries. Sorry about the flaws, but yeah I don't have much choice but to take away another -1 in elegance. You definitely win the most honest chef award.

In UotSI, looking back on my judgements, I'm not sure why I thought a Sublime Chord would work. Looking back, I think my plan was to enter mostly via spellthief, but then didn't really go anywhere from there? Regardless, Demonologist is legitimately the only way to do what you're doing, and that's worth another +0.5 to UotSI.
As a silver lining, Abigor made up enough points with his dispute to pass you anyway, and since you're not on the podium anymore, you're eligible for my HM. I really liked the premise of your build. It's just a shame you had to tank elegance to get there.

Totals: Elegance -1, new total 1.75, UotSI +0.5, new total 4. New overall total 13.25. My HM vote goes to Aries.

Also, I'm officially giving up the fight on the Wheel of Time stuff. I'm not familiar enough with other D20 systems to recognize that it was different, but it seems like it isn't actually D&D and thus ineligible for the contest.

H_H_F_F

2023-11-24, 08:02 AM

FactualArcher

2023-11-24, 08:17 AM

Hey FactualArcher, this round is very small so no need to worry, but in general for future rounds, could you try to edit updated scores into your main judgement post? I know it's a bit of a hassle, but it makes my life a lot easier when copying scores into the spreadsheet! Sometimes we have a ton of entries, and a few posts responding to each dispute, and it amounts to a ton of work for me which could be avoided with just a little work from the judges.

They'll be edited into the main post in a bit. I didn't realize that was a thing judges did, so thanks for telling me.

Also, how do you add the original poster's name into a quote?

Never mind, just figured out how to do it. Also, just figured out how to do strikethroughs. Weee! Editing is fun!

H_H_F_F

2023-11-24, 08:39 AM

They'll be edited into the main post in a bit. I didn't realize that was a thing judges did, so thanks for telling me.

Thanks!

Also, how do you add the original poster's name into a quote?

I'll use {These} to represent [these].

So, if you're directly quoting a post, the easiest way to do so is to click on the little (") symbol in the bottom right corner. On mobile it's just the symbol, on PC it says "reply with quote". That way, the quote has little arrows next to the name of the person quoted, that lead back to the post. You can try it by clicking the arrows in this post, and they'll send you back to your comment. There's also ("+), which lets you add multiple quotes to the same post, or quote a post from one thread in another.

If that didn't work for me, I'd just use {quote=person}content{/quote}. That's how I can say things like
Smite Opposition (Su): An elf soulborn’s link to the master archers of her race allows her to charge her bow attacks with the power of incarnum. She can deliver smite attacks just as a normal soulborn. However, she can deliver this smite attack with either an arrow fired from a bow or with a melee attack (unlike the normal smite opposition attack, which can only be delivered with a melee attack). The foe to be smited must be within 30 feet of her to deliver the smite attack by an arrow. or
I totally said this for real, this quote is not fabricated.

loky1109

2023-11-24, 08:53 AM

Also, I'm officially giving up the fight on the Wheel of Time stuff. I'm not familiar enough with other D20 systems to recognize that it was different, but it seems like it isn't actually D&D and thus ineligible for the contest.

Main points in my eyes are:
1) absence of D&D logo;
2) absence of mention D&D rulebooks, it it's D&D-compatible there should be list of D&D books in the "What you need" part;
3) different class table's structure with additional columns (Def Bonus and Reputation Score) which indicates the presence of different core rulesets;
4) different monster types, not additional, but exactly different;
5) existence of third type of save progression.

The Viscount

2023-11-24, 08:57 AM

Thank you for the quick response!
I have two more

I understand why you

The use of 'foe' in rules text is weird. 'Enemy' is defined as 'a creature unfriendly to you'. Obviously that's not using unfriendly in the RAW diplomacy sense - hostile creatures are obviously enemies as well. But that's still weird - does that mean we cannot use Charnel Miasma against creatures unaware of us, because they can impossibly become unfriendly towards someone they don't know about? If there's a shapeshifter hiding among our allies, can we use Charnel Miasma on all of them, and conclude that whoever is affected must be unfriendly to us?

Looking at how the word 'foe' specifically actually gets used, it seems to be a placeholder for 'someone attacking or targeting someone else'. See for instance the Bane special quality - if a human wielding a humanbane sword gets Death Urged and attacks herself, does she not take the extra damage?

Sure, it's not -elegant- to declare ourselves our own foe, but a -2 penalty seems really rough for something based on, essentially, a commonsense judgement rather than hard contradictory RAW.

I think you ignore that Insane Defiance synergizes real well with the SLAs we get. Having only one use per day makes the abilities very hit-or-miss, we increase their reliability considerably by attaching a -4 penalty to their saves. We definitely do mention Hold Demon and Dominate Demon (they're in our level 20 section).

I also disagree this is a weird way to round out our build. Demonologist 9 is still getting us Summoning Mastery upgrades, which you agree are useful to us. Why -not- spend the last level on getting an 1/day Dominate Monster on a creature type we can summon, with an effective save DC of 24 that we can further increase with status debuffs and curses? With how reliably we can apply Dominate Demon, we can just cast Planar Binding every day, grab a bebilith, and go to town with our army of spiders - other demonologists struggle to pull that off equally well.

And as for archivist or chameleon - neither is getting us spammable artaagliths, which I feel like you're really undervaluing, archivist is only giving us undercosted divine spells (not as good as the undercosted arcane ones, especially at 1st or 2nd level), and chameleon wouldn't give us Dominate Demon. I really do think demonologist is the best place to take this engine!

I think you undervalue our early and mid game. We have a very strong save-or-die, we have good utility spells and solid save-or-sucks, and we're genuinely quite a potent dread witch. Is that really worth a penalty?

Lastly, Chosen of Evil got us points in originality, but you didn't mention it at all in UoSI. In a round where getting 2 vile feats is mandatory, isn't it a cool trick to use a feat that scales in power from them, especially when it so seamlessly fits into our main strategy?

In UoSI, you write that we don't have anything that synergizes 'particularly well' with our familiar. I disagree. Our Fiendform optimization is something that no other build makes use of, and because of the familiar's Share Spells clause we get a ton of value out of our quasit. Spells like Telekinesis (accessible via Vrock form) have huge damage potential, and we can expend a single 5th-level spell to let our Quasit and Wolf and ourselves toss boulders around for the rest of the encounter. How is that not more impressive than what the other builds are doing?

I also think you ignore Telepathy. Our build wants to be able to masquerade as an innocent servant (see backstory), which requires us to have some way to issue commands silently. Other builds cannot do this quite as well - only one other heavily invested in bluff, and none of them can reliably have summoned minions be around when combat starts. We can, at the very least, issue our first-round commands without making it apparent we're worth targeting, and if a foe is particularly threatening we can extend this strategy for as long as we need, using our less-obvious abilities like 3/day Summon Seelie Ally, Counter Fear, the Demonologist SLAs, or whatever crafted items grant us.

Lastly, I think the sheer power of our main trick is undervalued. Summons not having access to teleportation and their more expensive SLAs is a huge power drop - we get around that in a very elegant way, giving us multiple free uses per day of high-level spells or even those with XP costs (there's a reason Vision normally has one). We use Candle Caster to further capitalize on the Greater Teleporting minions we now have, letting us cast our undercosted spells across the globe. You declare this results in... 'comparable to average summoner power'? I genuinely don't get it - maybe if you drop us into an arena with zero prep, but the whole point of the build is to see the future and use our vast array of tools to prepare for it.

Defeated Victor

2023-11-24, 10:02 AM

'Compatible with 3.0/3.5' isn't the right question with WoT; 3.0/3.5 is barely compatible with itself. The key question is whether WoT is D&D - and unlike Call of Cthulhu D20, which ends with a compatibility guide that basically says 'use it as is', Wheel doesn't have anything to say it is D&D qua D&D.

FactualArcher

2023-11-24, 11:51 AM

More dispute responses:

Foe question: The use of foe is pretty weird here, but you've provided enough evidence that I won't view it as completely illegal, and rather heavily ambiguous. Elegance penalty decreased to -1.

Various UotSI stuff: Insane Defiance and Dominate Demon do combo better than I gave you credit for. Chosen of Evil is also nice. And the spammable Artaaglith's are pretty useful. All in all, enough for +0.5 to UotSI.

Your early game is a little stronger than I realized, with Dread Witch coming as early as it does. I'm not sure if it's strong enough to make a huge difference, though. Late game, however, you do have spammable Artaaglith's. I still disagree with the legality of this trick, but you're right that I still need to take it into account here, and it is just as strong as Aries'. Total +0.5 to Power.

New scores: Power 4, Elegance 3.75, and UotSI 3. New total 14.

I can't believe I missed the Fiendform trick. You're familiar is still pretty fragile, but that's enough for +0.25 UotSI. I also misunderstood your preferred strategy, making telepathy is more useful for your than I originally realized. Another +0.25 to UotSI.

Main trick power: I didn't realize the sheer power of Halaster's Fetch as it gives you an opening to use diplomancy on your summons. That's enough for a +0.25 in power. It comes on kind of late, but the power is huge even with only a few days to prepare.
New totals: UotSI 3.75, new power 3.75, new total 15.25

Original judging post will be updated in a few minutes.

Inevitability

2023-11-25, 03:18 AM

My HM to Aries as well; massive props for actually getting a spellthief entry working and for the sheer impressiveness of the tricks it's turned towards - and for the fluff, of course!

Also no further disputes.

loky1109

2023-11-25, 03:34 AM

Updated table after disputes.

# Name Alignment / Race Class Levels Chef FactualArcher Total Place
1 Darcy Covenant (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25910960&postcount=75) CE Ice Gnome Gnome Fey Bard 6/ Wild Soul 2/Demonologist 9/Sublime Chord 2/Candle Caster 1 15.25 15.25 1st
2 The Great Horned Toad (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25910961&postcount=76) CE Neraph Binder 2/High Conjurer Wizard 3/Dread Witch 4/Demonologist 10/Geometer 1 14.00 14.00 3rd
3 Aries Darantas (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25910962&postcount=77) NE🠆CE Human🠆Spellscale Spellthief 11/Demonologist 9 13.25 13.25 4th
4 Esmée (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25910964&postcount=78) NE Illumian Spontaneous Domain Casting Cloistered Cleric 3/Human Paragon 3/Demonologist 10/Thaumatugist 4 14.00 14.00 3rd
5 Abigor the Tormentor (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25910967&postcount=79) CE Human Focused Specialist High Conjurer Wizard 1/Armored Mage Fighter 4/Jaunter 3/Wayfarer Guide 2/Demonologist 10 14.25 14.25 2nd

H_H_F_F

2023-11-26, 04:33 AM

Do we have any reason to believe that another judgement is on its way, or should we start talking about round CXXX?

Inevitability

2023-11-26, 04:44 AM

loky1109

2023-11-26, 04:50 AM

It will be Christmas round, we need something appropriate.

H_H_F_F

2023-11-26, 05:09 AM

It will be Christmas round, we need something appropriate.

Does a megaloceros count as a reindeer?

Inevitability

2023-11-26, 05:53 AM

Eldritch Disciple does have a sort of gift theme... and so, for that matter, does Divine Agent.

loky1109

2023-11-26, 06:04 AM

Does a megaloceros count as a reindeer?
It's reindeer on steroids!

H_H_F_F

2023-11-26, 06:30 AM

Eldritch Disciple does have a sort of gift theme... and so, for that matter, does Divine Agent.

Eldritch Disciple is way too good in my opinion, and not in an interesting way.

It's reindeer on steroids!

To be fair though, we had a full bab class with nothing interesting going a mere round ago. Doing another one so soon after might be a but much - even if it's a very wintery one indeed ❄️

loky1109

2023-11-26, 06:33 AM

Well, Santa has the beard. So we need some dwarf exclusive prestige class.

Inevitability

2023-11-26, 06:39 AM

A pity People's Champion (https://web.archive.org/web/20011119135430/http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/cg/cg20011024a) is only 5 levels... 'Communist dwarf' is more similar to santa than you'd think at first glance.

Inevitability

2023-11-26, 07:49 AM

Or for a more serious proposal of a dwarf-only class... Ironsoul Forgemaster? Hammer of Moradin?

Alternatively, if we just want to focus on the crafting aspect, there's also Shadowsmith and Techsmith (though that last one -is- 10/10 casting).

H_H_F_F

2023-11-26, 08:33 AM

Or for a more serious proposal of a dwarf-only class... Ironsoul Forgemaster? Hammer of Moradin?ז

Alternatively, if we just want to focus on the crafting aspect, there's also Shadowsmith and Techsmith (though that last one -is- 10/10 casting).

Ironsoul Forgemaster is also too-good-too-obvious in my opinion. Hammer of Moradin is a fantastic ingredient, though I have no clue what I'd do with it.

For another approach, we could go with the "light" theme. It's a strong theme for Hanukkah and for the winter solstice - and I assume for Christmas as well, with the whole "Christmas lights" thing?

The Viscount

2023-11-26, 04:08 PM

Y'know, after this mess of a class to enter, I think it's time we go for something nice and simple, something with relaxed prerequisites and broadly applicable at-will abilities... I'm of course talking about Warchief.

Man, I love warchief. It's so cool.
That being said, you think we're getting an ingredient that does stuff after we just did an ingredient that does stuff? I know it's going to be Christmas, but be reasonable.

Or for a more serious proposal of a dwarf-only class... Ironsoul Forgemaster? Hammer of Moradin?

Alternatively, if we just want to focus on the crafting aspect, there's also Shadowsmith and Techsmith (though that last one -is- 10/10 casting).

Shadowsmith is a great ingredient! It was round 87.

Nihilarian

2023-11-26, 11:26 PM

How do you do a warchief round? Do you waive the leadership ban, or does every entry come with "all of the other players have to play orc melee characters for this to work"?

The Viscount

2023-11-27, 12:12 PM

Typically for ingredients where Leadership is a feature or prerequisite, the chefs are instructed to simply ignore it, treating it as a tax (like with so many secret ingredients). With Warchief I do wonder if we would run into the issue of something like thrallherd, where without leadership to provide a concrete source of a discrete number of followers, showcasing it would become much more difficult. I have loved using it in Iron Chef, but I'm not sure if it would make for a good secret ingredient by itself.

In terms of upcoming secret ingredient, choose what type of present you're looking forward to

Remote Delivery
Gee Thanks, You Shouldn't Have

Inevitability

2023-11-27, 01:28 PM

I think Gee thanks, you shouldn't have sounds the most interesting.

H_H_F_F

2023-11-27, 01:55 PM

I think Gee thanks, you shouldn't have sounds the most interesting.

I concur...

FactualArcher

2023-11-27, 02:38 PM

I concur...

I’ll third the motion.

daremetoidareyo

2023-11-27, 04:09 PM

I’ll take the one that doesn’t sound like dragon samurai. So the remote one

MinimanMidget

2023-11-27, 05:51 PM

I’ll take the one that doesn’t sound like dragon samurai. So the remote one

I'm hoping for dragon samurai, so I'll vote for Gee thanks, you shouldn't have.

daremetoidareyo

2023-11-27, 06:42 PM

I'm hoping for dragon samurai, so I'll vote for Gee thanks, you shouldn't have.

Masochist .

MinimanMidget

2023-11-27, 11:02 PM

Masochist .

Nah, it's just the only ingredient I have a stub ready for.

Korahir

2023-11-28, 12:56 AM

Remote Delivery.

Condé

2023-11-28, 02:08 AM

I would like to participate to the next Iron Chef.
So if I can vote "Gee thanks, you shouldn't have" sounds the more interesting.

If not...

I just think it sounds like a nice permise.

The Viscount

2023-11-28, 11:51 AM

Voting is always open to any interested parties.

Venger

2023-11-28, 07:50 PM

thanks, you shouldn’t have.

Paragon

2023-12-01, 03:20 AM

7 - 2 (I'm voting "Gee thanks you shouldn't have" too)

Lay it on us, we're as ready as we can be

H_H_F_F

2023-12-01, 10:39 AM

While we're waiting for the reveal, I'll mention that this round of E6 has no judge as of yet. It's about creating minions that last, and I think the entries turned out great.

daremetoidareyo

2023-12-02, 10:30 PM

As I judge, I think the real winner of this demonology competition is the artagaaalith
all the smack talked about ghostwalk in general, and here its being wine and dined and thrown a parade

My HM goes to Aries

#1: Darcy Covenant: sublime chord wild soul candle caster 19

First Impressions
Atmospheric introduction was well composed. You're a good writer.
Halaster's fetch on the spell list
versatile spellcaster class spell slot agnosticism may be a shady ruling, although potentially RAW
candle caster for the underleveled demonologist spells
fiendform potential rules issues
9/10 levels
middling use of the quasit, although no familiar is lost
A really holistic and thoroughly researched build
Multiple demons ripped from splats and tactics on how to use them

Elegance 5
Lets take a look at the laguage for summoning mastery

"When a demonologist of 3rd level or higher casts a summon monster spell, it is treated as the equivalent spell of two levels higher for purposes of summoning chaotic evil creatures."

Ok. That def works for halaster's fetch. How about fiendform?

"This spell functions like alter self, except that you can take the form of any fiendish creature, demon, or devil that can be summoned by a summon monster I, II, III, or IV spell, regardless of size. You can assume only one form with each use of the spell, but you gain all that form's extraordinary, spell-like, and supernatural abilities, and your type changes to outsider. "

I considered docking points for the fey to outsider mash up and sacrificing fey as a means to drive sacrifices, but I think those are the biases of others that I'm channeling, and they seem like no fun.

power 5
You really leveraged a close reading of the text of demon mastery into splat support (halaster's fetch, fiend form, wildsoul) to create something very very powerful.
There is a potential fort save issue, but candle caster pre-req helps!
6th level spells and 9th level summons are positive. The form changes and at range spell casting via candle caster's major combat flaw exploited with a teleporting demon is clever as all get out.

originality 4.5
Positives: build components are super interesting: (candle caster dip, fetch, fiendform, wild soul, non pre-req feat selection) excellent summon monster leverage
Negatives: sublime chord is the most powerful bard amplifier. I know that it jives well here, but it is an optimization staple that sees a lot of use.

Uosi: 4.5
Even leveraging the pre-req feat costs is nice, 9/10 levels are taken,
but the quasit is treated as a ribbon.
Overall, the focus on demon mastery, and then supplementation of demon control measures is impressive. Halaster's fetch and fiendform are impressive uses of the class. This is just all around solid.

The Horned Toad 18.5
First impressions: CE Neraph Binder 2 / Wizard 3 / Dread Witch 4 / Demonologist 10 / Geometer 1
OK.....
* Palahniukian intro. Well constructed.
* enters into demonologist late after a binder wizard dreadwitch set up
* first five levels seem a little rough: binder 2 into wizard 3 with instructions to bind naberius,
* all skills are nerdy - No skill monkeying around for you.
* neat little absorb fear spell engine based on charnel miasma targetting yourself for unlimited spell slots
* geometer adds glyph of warding to the mix
* insane defiance spells that you use to target yourself empowered by dread witch is clever, although i may disagree with the applicability of the charm demon ability as a means to get charm monster, although i don't think that you stated this as a goal.

INSANE DEFIANCE: "As an immediate action, whenever you are the target of a mind-affecting spell or spell-like ability, you can take 1 point of Wisdom damage to retarget the effect to another creature of your choice within the effect's range. The new target takes a —4 circumstance penalty on its saving throw, if any, against that effect."

Targetting rules for the effect would still be in place, so you'd only be using this on demons.

Elegance 5
Elegance no glaring red flags. All ability pre-reqs all met. Charnell Miasma might have a targetting issue, but i don't think that foe is a defined term.

Originality 5
Neraph for CE outsider shenanigans is logical. You have a wierd combination of classes to build a support network for the unlimited level 2 spell engine. Quasit and demon mastery are used en force. Glyphs of warding to further amplify the spell engine is a power boost to the combo. It is a very clever gimmick. Bravo Chef! The part of me that loves being clever loves seeing you be clever.

power 4.25
This is hard to determine. Unlimited level 2 spells! But level 2 spells and glyphs are dispellable,
tons of fear maximization is good against lower power enemies and those without immunities,
knowledge and sacrifice optimization are limited wish engines.
So...i get the impression that this is a strong build after level 5, but i also get the impression that is weaker than some of the previous entrants.

UOSI 4.5
Your Quasit is abused, good.
Demon mastery adds power to a build that would otherwise get laughed at. The spell list is leveraged quite well.
All ten levels taken. It is very on theme throughout.

Overall, i like this build quite a lot, but i suspect it might be more clever (mechanically speaking) than powerful and thus relies on the black box of how many sacrifices for limited wishes via hokey sacrifice rules. You really created something cool.

Aries the footnoted 17
First Impressions
* Ok, Aries....Aren't you a bold one?!? 2 flaws and retraining. Mid build transformation to spellscale
* Everyone knows that Iron Chef is governed by a shared mutual trauma of stingy DM's saying no to more things
* The write up had a nice recursivity with the drop of blood symbolism
* Oh Holy Pazuzu, this is an excellent composition!
* Let's just tank elegance
* And hooboy, the earnestness in making a cohesive character arc to justify the optimal maximization of every bit of mechanical marrow out of this bone
* Some part of me feels really proud when I see other people treat elegance as a dump stat. I think that's because there is a higher goal here: Art
Like, my biggest complaint is how the character benchmarks for the story aren't shuffled throughout the build write up
* Obviously, now I have to read the stupid rules on the spell scale assumption

Elegance: Lets just put a 2.25 here. I'll decide later if it really is a 1.
Cuz like if I start all builds at a 5, and you lose 1 for each flaw, and it can be expected that retraining costs, at a minimum .5 points, that brings down to 2.5. Maybe an audacity tax of .25 too. That means that it's not punished below an outright illegal build, but it isn't 0, and it seems likely it might be the lowest elegance of the contest so far.

Originality: 5
master spelltheif bootstrapping with godsblood spell thief onto the demonologist to build a powerful infinite spell engine. Presuming we don't see anyone else trying the same, i think a 5 fits here. This is beautiful.

Power 4.75
There's a point where the power on this build is nuts....and there's a point before that point where the power isn't there. 11 levels of kinda mediocrity. And then boom!

With that in mind, If i pin my power rating to DARCY up above, they are more powerful by level 7-9. So this build should be slightly below that, as both builds really get a lot of power out of the dish. The horned toad goes nova in later levels too. So, im gonna eyeball 4.25-4.75 and then solidify this build around the relative power level of the entrants.

UOSI: 5.
I think it's unequivocal that this is a well leveraged use for the class. I didn't see any real quasity exploitation, but jujitsuing the split demonology casting issues has been the hurdle advanced by 3 contestants now and this one does it the best.

Next up, the guy who has to follow that last entry. I sure hope they have a pallet cleansing wildly different take!

Esmee - 18.5
First Impressions
* Holy Pazuzu, wishes by level 8
* What a round!?!?!
* Qualifies through upcasted illumian anyspells lol.
* Free elder evil feats....So elegance is gonna top out at 4
* Write up is a cute fairy tale origin story. Nice change of pace, kinda.
* Power is locked, tho early level fort saves aren’t great
* I uh think I agree with the higher order touchstone ability allowing qualification RAW
* So overall, this is a solid entry.
*This build is a bit more summon monster oriented through their own slots, Which in most comps would be fine, but this round has a lot of subversions on it that even twinned summon monster 9s is not the best
*On the other hand, the imprisoned demon trick really is clever
*And this build is similarly full of powerful demon Npc long term allies as Darcy

Elegance: 4.
Elder evil feats are flaws by another name. Everything else seems to check out.

Originality: 5
Going divine at the outset unlike the others in this competition. They all seem to go arcane and supplement divine through feats, you do the opposite. Classic evil child creepy factor. This is a great build.

Power: 4.75
Insane defiance is taken but not mentioned. Mindsight is taken and barely mentioned.
you have wishes by level 8 augmented by commune spells via sacrifice rules.
Planar allies at level 8 and higher.
Power grows from there. And it’s powerful through early levels.

Uosi: 4.75
You can’t do the stuff you do without demonologist. The build doesn’t leverage the bad prereq feats, but does get them free through elder evilness
I’m feeling a bit like the cloistered cleric human paragon generates a lot of the groundwork power.

Abigor - 18
First ImpressionsAww my jaunter wayfinder trick! (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=22945900&postcount=39)

You missed a vital ingredient: with focused specialist, abigor gets two spells.

Extra Teleportation: Beginning at 2nd level, a wayfarer guide gains an extra 5th-level spell slot, which can be used only for a teleport spell.

Focused Caster: Replaces: You lose one spell slot from each level of wizard spells you can cast. If you later gain the ability to cast higher-level wizard spells, you lose one spell slot from each new level of spells you can cast.

You must also choose another prohibited school of magic, which can't be divination.

Benefit: You can prepare two additional spells of your specialty school per spell level each day. These extra spells are in addition to those normally granted to a specialist wizard.

This benefit doesn't apply to spells gained from classes other than wizard.

So you get that 5th level slot which can only be used for teleport, and you instead prepare two 5th level spells. With versatile spellcaster, you could get up to sixths if you find a way to know a sixth, say...through a metamagic feat

*I like the use of the quasit as a sacrifice technique, though I don't know if it really is as powerfully wrought as other builds here. Further, it also seems hokey? like the sacrifice is supposed to be one that is a pain in the butt to achieve. So i can easily see a DM nope this line of thought. or allow it once
* The Write up describes the character well
* I like how the build throws one class level at the problem and then commits the rest for tactical mobility so that when you take demonologist, you didn't have to throw away more than one level to commit to demonologist.
* Let's write up some numbers

Elegance: 5
No outlandish stuff. I do see an issue with armored mage going towards demonologist, which negatively impacts the 5th level wizard spells, although I reckon sufficient funds to minimize light armor Spell failure chance can address it
The feats are qualified for

Originality: 5
You didn't set more than one class level on fire. And then it seems like you play like a demonologist, except you built around the quasit a bit more robustly than other builds. The jaunter wayfinder is a cool trick. I see no reason not to apply full points

Power: 4
This might be the weakest of the entrants. With the martial and tactical movement focus being operandi that can help immediate survivability, but the other builds had schemes that coalesced more permanent demon based power reserves.

UOSI: 4
10 levels of demonologist, and you leveraged the quasit. You solved the issue with highest possible levels of summoning through the wayfarer trick. Considering the ways in which the uses of this class were split open by other builds, this one feels like the one that most closely adheres to the expectations of the class. I think if you borrowed darcy's trick and prepared halaster's fetch in your 5th level slots for the wayfarer teleportation spell slot replaced by focused conjurer, a lot of these faults disappear. At risk of sounding harsh, I think this build is structured around qualification for demonologist and then finding out how to leverage it's abilities, whereas other builds were actively exploiting the abilities of the class beyond expectations. Leaving us with a 4 here.

The Viscount

2023-12-02, 11:52 PM

Thank you so much for judging daremetoidareyou!

H_H_F_F

2023-12-03, 03:43 AM

Thank you, dare!

Inevitability

2023-12-03, 09:49 AM

Thanks for the judging, Dare!

FactualArcher

2023-12-03, 10:41 AM

Yay, I’m not the only judge. Thanks for judging, Dare.

loky1109

2023-12-03, 02:12 PM

Thank you, Dare!
Updated table!

# Name Alignment / Race Class Levels Chef FactualArcher daremetoidareyo Total Place
1 Darcy Covenant (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25910960&postcount=75) CE Ice Gnome Gnome Fey Bard 6/ Wild Soul 2/Demonologist 9/Sublime Chord 2/Candle Caster 1 15.25 19.00 34.25 1st
2 The Great Horned Toad (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25910961&postcount=76) CE Neraph Binder 2/High Conjurer Wizard 3/Dread Witch 4/Demonologist 10/Geometer 1 14.00 18.50 32.50 2nd
3 Aries Darantas (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25910962&postcount=77) NE🠆CE Human🠆Spellscale Spellthief 11/Demonologist 9 13.25 17.00 30.25 4th
4 Esmée (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25910964&postcount=78) NE Illumian Spontaneous Domain Casting Cloistered Cleric 3/Human Paragon 3/Demonologist 10/Thaumatugist 4 14.00 18.50 32.50 2nd
5 Abigor the Tormentor (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25910967&postcount=79) CE Human Focused Specialist High Conjurer Wizard 1/Armored Mage Fighter 4/Jaunter 3/Wayfarer Guide 2/Demonologist 10 14.25 18.00 32.25 3rd

H_H_F_F

2023-12-05, 02:46 PM

Reveal incoming? I really need a distraction.

The Viscount

2023-12-05, 08:20 PM

Chefs have 48 hours for remaining disputes, if any. Then reveal.

daremetoidareyo

2023-12-07, 08:49 PM

Chefs have 48 hours for remaining disputes, if any. Then reveal.

2nd judge privilege: A marked reduction in disputes.

We made the cut-off!

The Viscount

2023-12-08, 01:23 AM

Sorry to disappoint. We did have one that came in before the cutoff, I'm only getting away from work now. Here it is.

Thank you dare! I don't sure is it dispute or just comment.

Aww my jaunter wayfinder trick!
O! I wasn't first! And of course it was you!

So you get that 5th level slot which can only be used for teleport, and you instead prepare two 5th level spells. With versatile spellcaster, you could get up to sixths if you find a way to know a sixth, say...through a metamagic feat
Yeah, I missed this opportunity. Using versatile spellcaster with wizard's spell slot's doesn't look very elegant for me, but yes, it's RAW legal.

You solved the issue with highest possible levels of summoning through the wayfarer trick.
Actually, no. I solved this issue throught Arcane Disciple+Versatile Spellcaster combo.

I think if you borrowed darcy's trick and prepared halaster's fetch in your 5th level slots for the wayfarer teleportation spell slot replaced by focused conjurer, a lot of these faults disappear.
You are judge and I don't doubt your position, but I enter this SI with strong belief that Summoning mastery doesn't work with Halaster's Fetch or Fiendform. That's why I didn't try to use these spells.

daremetoidareyo

2023-12-08, 08:12 AM

Thanks for the commentary abigor.

I’m not seeing a specific dispute, other than an attribution of summon monster ninths to a different build combination than what I identified, so I’ll just respond to the comments and kick off the rest.

Abigor is a neat build overall and seems like it would be fun to bring to a table. The quality of your competition in this contest is the major reason Abigor isn’t on the dais. There’s a lot to like about a bruiser demonologist with access to teleportation. It’s a solid build for the 3.5 general population of character build advice.

We can debate raw over halasters fetch and summoning mastery and fiend form after the reveal.

H_H_F_F

2023-12-08, 10:11 AM

Abigor isn’t on the dais.

He is, though! We have a tie in silver, don't we?

The Viscount

2023-12-08, 10:22 AM

Thanks to a quick response from dare, it's time for the reveal!

# Name Alignment / Race Class Levels Chef FactualArcher daremetoidareyo Total Place
1 Darcy Covenant (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25910960&postcount=75) CE Ice Gnome Gnome Fey Bard 6/ Wild Soul 2/Demonologist 9/Sublime Chord 2/Candle Caster 1 Inevitability 15.25 19.00 34.25 1st
2 The Great Horned Toad (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25910961&postcount=76) CE Neraph Binder 2/High Conjurer Wizard 3/Dread Witch 4/Demonologist 10/Geometer 1 Inevitability 14.00 18.50 32.50 2nd
3 Aries Darantas (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25910962&postcount=77) NE🠆CE Human🠆Spellscale Spellthief 11/Demonologist 9 H_H_F_F 13.25 17.00 30.25 4th
4 Esmée (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25910964&postcount=78) NE Illumian Spontaneous Domain Casting Cloistered Cleric 3/Human Paragon 3/Demonologist 10/Thaumatugist 4 Paragon 14.00 18.50 32.50 2nd
5 Abigor the Tormentor (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25910967&postcount=79) CE Human Focused Specialist High Conjurer Wizard 1/Armored Mage Fighter 4/Jaunter 3/Wayfarer Guide 2/Demonologist 10 loky1109 14.25 18.00 32.25 3rd

Congratulations to everyone for an excellent round! Next round up shortly.

daremetoidareyo

2023-12-08, 10:51 AM

He is, though! We have a tie in silver, don't we?

Oops. Rolled a 1

H_H_F_F

2023-12-08, 11:08 AM

Well! I was shooting for HM this round (My first! Hooray!), and it seems like it wasn't just a participation prize but given with full intention. Happy about that! I also find it pleasing that as well as being my first HM, it's my first time scoring last (I was just shy of last thrice, but never actually got it before.) I also won UoSI (aka the real competition :smalltongue:) from both judges, which is great.

I have a slight disagreement with you about my investment in the SI outside the main trick, FactualArcher: both Hold Demon and Charm demon are once a day and powered by Charisma, and I have Cha that's higher by 3 points than the next in line (5 points away and 11 points away with the rest of the contestants) with a 1/day untyped +4 that no one else has access to. Cha powers the entirety of the SI, and especially powers planar binding, which I've shown I can squeeze extra utility out of with steal spell and steal SLA, unlike other casters. I pointed out my High cha in relation to these features both when entering the SI and in my wrap-up. This number's game, however, didn't feel meaningful enough to dispute.

Also, while I agree that we all have access to dark sacrifices (and nearly all of us had significant investment in K. religion) I think that maybe those of us with access to item creation feats should have gotten a nod, given that we had a use for it that others didn't? That might be not significant enough either, I guess.

I also thought that outside of combat, my ability for full time nondetection and eboneyes for the entire party was worth something, but perhaps not enough to justify a change in score.

Honestly though, I didn't want to contest any of this, and I feel like you could've penalized so much more that you didn't in my build (affiliation for class skills, penumbra bloodline through magical training, alignment shift) that I wasn't going to fight you on anything outside the rampocalypse.

That's true for you as well, Dare: funnily, I think I really got screwed by the two of you starting with an elegance of 5, since it gave me more points to lose in comparison to others. But yeah, I completely went for treating elegance as a dump state in the name of art here; once I realized it was going to be bad if I was to achieve rampocalypse, I embraced it all the way even for less important goals. This build was very much my conscious attempt at a "dare build", so I'm really glad you liked it!

As for the rest of us: I really enjoyed Darcy Covenant, even though I just disagree that Summoning Mastery would work on Halaster's Fetch. No way I'd let that fly at all. In my opinion, you aren't casting summon monster, end of story. Dominate Monster has the same sort of language in regards to dominate person, but it's still a different spell. However, having my favorite piece of fluff ever written for the competition certainly makes me forget about all of that, and I recognize that the judges disagree.

I freaking loved Abigor, too. That Jaunter + Wayfarer Guide trick is brilliant, and I'm 1000% precent going to steal it for something in the future. Makes perfect sense that Dare did that before. Noticing that armored mage didn't specify that you choose a spellcasting class you have is also brilliant, and the underleveled nature of demonologist spells let you really squeeze that ACF. Not that it's that hard to cast in light armor (Aries was doing that as well, through master spellthief) but that was still a far more creative way to do so.

I really enjoyed this round, and am really pleased with my first ever HM! Thank you to everyone for participating and congratulations for placing, thank you FactualArcher and daremetoidareyou for judging – and as always, a huge thanks to our chairman, The Viscount!

See you all next round, for Divine Agent!

Inevitability

2023-12-08, 11:39 AM

Great round, everybody!

H_H_F_F, amazing build, very much deserving of HM even if the unfortunate existence of elegance scores meant it wasn't going to get a podium spot. I believe I've already gushed about the spellthief entry, but once more: just amazing.

Loky, incredibly inspired entry method from you as well; I'd never realized Wayfarer Guide was more than an awkwardly niche 2/3rds PrC.

Paragon... well, I'll be honest, when I saw the heightened anyspell entry trick, I did groan a little. But it grew on me over time, and it's still less awkward than my own divine illumian idea. Fitting in thaumaturgist is something I'm really jealous you managed.

As for my reflections on my own entries... I'm happy darcy did so well, and I'm glad to hear the fluff was so well-received: I had a lot of fun writing it! I'll be honest and say that the toad actually was my bigger favorite - I'd been meaning to make an infinite spells dread witch for a while now, and I was really pleased to see demonologist fitting so well.

Lastly, some thoughts on the rules questions darcy raised. I totally grant that Summoning Mastery applying to Halaster's Fetch is a bit of a reach (and the elegance hit for it was extremely fair): but why wouldn't it work with Fiendform? Fiendform quite specifically says it lets me assume the form of 'any fiendish creature, demon, or devil that can be summoned by a summon monster I, II, III, or IV spell'. Babaus can unambiguously 'be summoned by' a Summon Monster spell of the specified level - I cast the spell, a babau appears, doesn't get more straightforward than that.

H_H_F_F

2023-12-08, 11:46 AM

H_H_F_F, amazing build, very much deserving of HM even if the unfortunate existence of elegance scores meant it wasn't going to get a podium spot. I believe I've already gushed about the spellthief entry, but once more: just amazing.
https://c.tenor.com/a148VamxckgAAAAC/tenor.gif

Lastly, some thoughts on the rules questions darcy raised. I totally grant that Summoning Mastery applying to Halaster's Fetch is a bit of a reach (and the elegance hit for it was extremely fair): but why wouldn't it work with Fiendform? Fiendform quite specifically says it lets me assume the form of 'any fiendish creature, demon, or devil that can be summoned by a summon monster I, II, III, or IV spell'. Babaus can unambiguously 'be summoned by' a Summon Monster spell of the specified level - I cast the spell, a babau appears, doesn't get more straightforward than that.

So, here's what's bothering me about fiendform. It's not "that you can summon", right? A sorcerer can learn the spell and use it even if they don't have any summon monster spell as a spell known. It's "that can be summoned".

At which point, the argument about whether or not that includes Babaus due to summoning mastery becomes sort of moot as far as UoSI is concerned, because that logic would apply whether or not you yourself are a demonologist.

loky1109

2023-12-08, 01:52 PM

My third Bronze! Yeah! Thanks for all, for judges, for chair, for other contestants!

Loky, incredibly inspired entry method from you as well; I'd never realized Wayfarer Guide was more than an awkwardly niche 2/3rds PrC.
I had eye on Wayfarer Guide for a long time. It's cool, it fits this round SI, not just entry trick for entry trick.
Firstly it worked with Fiendish Legacy feat, but with it I couldn't get all 10 levels of SI, I started to search and achieved success with Jaunter.

So, here's what's bothering me about fiendform. It's not "that you can summon", right? A sorcerer can learn the spell and use it even if they don't have any summon monster spell as a spell known. It's "that can be summoned".

At which point, the argument about whether or not that includes Babaus due to summoning mastery becomes sort of moot as far as UoSI is concerned, because that logic would apply whether or not you yourself are a demonologist.
Yeah! That's my point, too.

FactualArcher

2023-12-08, 03:22 PM

daremetoidareyo

2023-12-08, 10:34 PM

I’m away from books for a few days, Can we get some rules text on summoning mastery, halasters fetch and fiend form? Cuz I when I read them, they 100% RAW worked for me.

H_H_F_F

2023-12-09, 04:50 AM

I’m away from books for a few days, Can we get some rules text on summoning mastery, halasters fetch and fiend form? Cuz I when I read them, they 100% RAW worked for me.

Sure thing.

When a demonologist of 3rd level or higher casts a summon monster spell, it is treated as the equivalent spell of two levels higher for purposes of summoning chaotic evil creatures. For example, a demonologist refers to the summon monster VI list for chaotic evil outsiders when casting summon monster II. At 6th level, the demonologist refers to the summoning list three levels higher than the one for the summon monster spell he is casting. At 9th level, the demonologist refers to the list four levels higher.

This spell functions like alter self (PH 197), except that you can take the form of any fiendish creature, demon, or devil that can be summoned by a summon monster I, II, III, or IV spell (MM 287), regardless of size. You can assume only one form with each use of the spell, but you gain all that form’s extraordinary, spell-like, and supernatural abilities, and your type changes to outsider. Spells and effects that harm or ward evil outsiders affect you, and any effect that would normally banish an outsider to its home plane instead ends the spell and leaves you dazed for 1 round per caster level.

As Summon Monster I, except called creatures do not disappear at the end of the spell's duration. They do, however, become free willed and outside the control of the caller after the spell expires.

daremetoidareyo

2023-12-09, 08:04 AM

Sure thing.

I interpret these to work. Halasters fetch’s text is “as summon monster 1”. Is the issue that the spell isn’t named summon monster 1?

H_H_F_F

2023-12-09, 08:26 AM

I interpret these to work. Halasters fetch’s text is “as summon monster 1”. Is the issue that the spell isn’t named summon monster 1?

Again, I agree that there's a strong RAW case for fiendform to work, I just don't think it requires taking demonologist on the caster. "A Vrock Can be summoned with SM4, so I can take its form." I don't need to be able to summon it with summon monster myself at all.

So to me, it's more like "RAW, the very existence of demonologist as a class buffs fiendform", which isn't a use for demonologist, just for fiendform.

As for Halaster's Fetch: essentially, yeah. Lots of spells work "as X, except" or "like X, except". Psionic dominate is "as the dominate person spell, except" - would you say it would enjoy the benefit of Arcane Thesis: dominate person? Would Greater dispel magic enjoy something that RAW only affects dispel magic? Would taking Arcane Thesis (SM1) work on all summon monster spells and all Halaster's Fetch spells?

loky1109

2023-12-09, 08:41 AM

I interpret these to work. Halasters fetch’s text is “as summon monster 1”. Is the issue that the spell isn’t named summon monster 1?
Yes, issue is it's different spell. "Y works as X" isn't equivalent of "all that works for X as well works for Y".

daremetoidareyo

2023-12-09, 02:20 PM

Yes, issue is it's different spell. "Y works as X" isn't equivalent of "all that works for X as well works for Y".

It definitely seems more complicated than that, as the demon summoning mastery occurs as you cast a summon monster spell. The thing that triggers the ability is the casting of the spell. If you cast halasters fetch, it’s “as summon monster” meaning that effects that affect summon monster are not necessarily excluded.

So I think the disagreement between my interpretation looks like one where we begin applying the demonologist ability. Because somewhere between casting a differently named spell and that spell taking effect, it is treated as a summon monster spell, and this, subject to demonologist class feature. I guess that’s enough for me to say it should work: also, a demonologist summoning a bunch of free willed demons is a fantastic class feature. And not more unbalanced than 5th level spells they would have gotten.

That’s not to say that I don’t see the counter argument entirely, just if summon monster wasn’t italicized, as is house style to do when referring to spells, there would be more support for the reading above. Like I’d accept a DM booing on those grounds, but I hope they wouldn’t from a game play mechanics point of view

H_H_F_F

2023-12-09, 02:39 PM

It definitely seems more complicated than that, as the demon summoning mastery occurs as you cast a summon monster spell. The thing that triggers the ability is the casting of the spell. If you cast halasters fetch, it’s “as summon monster” meaning that effects that affect summon monster are not necessarily excluded.

So I think the disagreement between my interpretation looks like one where we begin applying the demonologist ability. Because somewhere between casting a differently named spell and that spell taking effect, it is treated as a summon monster spell, and this, subject to demonologist class feature. I guess that’s enough for me to say it should work: also, a demonologist summoning a bunch of free willed demons is a fantastic class feature. And not more unbalanced than 5th level spells they would have gotten.

That’s not to say that I don’t see the counter argument entirely, just if summon monster wasn’t italicized, as is house style to do when referring to spells, there would be more support for the reading above. Like I’d accept a DM booing on those grounds, but I hope they wouldn’t from a game play mechanics point of view

I think I would totally go for your reading if Halaster's Fetch said something like "pick a monster as if you've cast summon monster I". As is, I still tend to disagree - but I think I have a better understanding of where you're coming from.

N/Arz

2023-12-09, 03:35 PM

@HFFF/Aries

Treat the spell as if it were cast by the original owner of the spell for the purpose of determining caster level, save DC, and so forth.
Summon mastery does not apply to stolen spells. However, he has some summon monster spells on his spellthief list.

Also you forgot to mention that you were using Planar Touchstone to qualify for Heretic of the Faith. And Heretic of the Faith only allows you to exchange one whole domain, not the spells from one domain like Arcane Disciple and Godsblood Spelltheft give you.

Personally didn't see the attraction to changing alignment/race and the lack of a way to launder stolen spells(via Arcane Preparation or GS(Spell)=Anyspell) for future use.

Okay, back to the Summon Mastery debate, Summon Seelie ally is also not a summon monster spell and only relates to levels 4-8 not monster lists 4-8.

H_H_F_F

2023-12-09, 05:23 PM

@HFFF/AriesHey there, N/Arz, welcome to the forums! Always glad to have new voices in the forum competitions, and hope to see you participate in the future!

Summon mastery does not apply to stolen spells. However, he has some summon monster spells on his spellthief list.

So, yeah, SM 1-3 can be done with any stolen spell without having to specifically steal a Summon Monster spell. I get where you're coming from for steal spell, but I feel like the entire point in the part of my spiel you're probably referring to was me explaining why I think this does work:
But it's more than that: Summoning Mastery happens when you pick the monsters. It's not an effect you place or not place on the spell. You cast the spell all the same as every other caster, but when you start picking monsters, your list looks different. That's fundamentally different from, say, metamagic or the like.

And that's crucial, because while Steal Spell doesn't let you apply any metamagic, sudden metamagic, etc effects to spells, you'd still be casting summon monsters – and when picking monsters, you'd still use summoning mastery.If you disagree, that's fine, but I stand by my point.

Also you forgot to mention that you were using Planar Touchstone to qualify for Heretic of the Faith.
I... didn't?
He qualifies for the feat using his divine casting from his higher-order ability Right here, bright as day. I guess I should've restated what ,y higher order ability is and where it comes from, for anyone skimming the build, but it's there.
And Heretic of the Faith only allows you to exchange one whole domain, not the spells from one domain like Arcane Disciple and Godsblood Spelltheft give you. So, Heretic of the Faith says "If you have access to domains, you can exchange any one domain you have with another domain outside those normally availiable to your faith". To me, that was ambigious enough, but in retrospect I may have been more strict in interpretation of domain "access" before, so I definitely see where you're coming from.

Personally didn't see the attraction to changing alignment/race

In order to qualify as a spellthief, I had to be NE, and take a bunch of feats I didn't need, one of which forced me into a racial pick. Staying human (and keeping Magical Training) would've been useless when compared to a Cha increase (powers pretty much everything in the SI), and access to blood quickening meditations. That was my reasoning. Also, once I self-qualified, I had to get rid of Arcane Disciple. You cant know the same spell twice, and Arcane disciple is limited to 1/day which ruins everything for Aries. Once I had to do that, and decided that I will be retraining and going for the Godsblood Abyss domain trick, then staying NE for no mechanical reason and giving up the trick seemed... wrong.

Granted, I could've just used spellscale assumption to lose Arcane Disciple, keep magical training (while losing access to its benefits, no longer being a human) and the build would've worked without retraining. Would have granted me a better elegance score, probably, and higher originality from FactualArcher. I could've kept the retraining and not spellscale assumption, (clearly worse than the opposite, in my view). But at the end, I just decided to go all out for the level 20 I wanted - and that level 20 wasn't just "I lose my faith and choose to lose the benefits of Arcane Disciple, getting nothing in return."

and the lack of a way to launder stolen spells(via Arcane Preparation or GS(Spell)=Anyspell) for future use. Not sure what GS is in this context! Anyspell would've been a nice addition, I agree. Arcane Preparation I would've found unnecessary, even if it worked. I don't need to save up for future use, I have infinite spells. However, discussion is sort of moot because it doesn't work; steal spell doesn't give you as spellslot, and you can't use stuff like versatile casting or arcane preparation to support it.

All that being said, I feel like I have to ask: did you like or dislike the build? You seem to have a lot of criticism for it, but it also seems like it really caught your interest.