Chameleon and Improved Spell Capacity

[redking]

Assuming build with 9th level spells in a class (eg Wizard 20) to meet the prerequisites for Improved Spell Capacity, can the same character with chameleon 10 also get the benefits, opening up higher level spell slots on the chameleon side?

[holbita]

You could,

But let's clarify something, you don't need 9th level spells, 6th on a bard would work the same way... or 6th on a chameleon... remember that your floating feat can be used in this case. You may not be able to choose the feat normally, but you can definitely get to 7th level spells by using your floating feat.

[redking]

You could,

But let's clarify something, you don't need 9th level spells, 6th on a bard would work the same way... or 6th on a chameleon... remember that your floating feat can be used in this case. You may not be able to choose the feat normally, but you can definitely get to 7th level spells by using your floating feat.

The reason why I specified Wizard 20 (although Bard 20 works as well) is because you can't use your Chameleon spellcasting to qualify for a feat. I don't believe that Chameleon qualifies for Practiced Spellcaster, for example.

[Jack_Simth]

The reason why I specified Wizard 20 (although Bard 20 works as well) is because you can't use your Chameleon spellcasting to qualify for a feat. I don't believe that Chameleon qualifies for Practiced Spellcaster, for example.

You can't qualify for feats based on your focus for the day, but you can certainly apply feats to it. You'll need to go through some hoops to get everything you need to make it happen, but the possibility of a Chameleon leapfrogging to 9ths is there.

[holbita]

The reason why I specified Wizard 20 (although Bard 20 works as well) is because you can't use your Chameleon spellcasting to qualify for a feat. I don't believe that Chameleon qualifies for Practiced Spellcaster, for example.

Almost right:

"You can’t use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option. You can use your bonus feat to qualify for such options, but if you change the feat, you suffer the normal drawbacks for no longer meeting a prerequisite or requirement"

You can still use your floating feat to take such feats. You will be just limited to one at a time, but still it should be enough for most things you want to do... unless you really want to break the game.

If you want to break it then yes, you could take trapsmith 5 to qualify for Improved Spell Capacity then chameleon and cast 9th level spells or higher.

[redking]

Almost right:

"You can’t use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option. You can use your bonus feat to qualify for such options, but if you change the feat, you suffer the normal drawbacks for no longer meeting a prerequisite or requirement"

You can still use your floating feat to take such feats. You will be just limited to one at a time, but still it should be enough for most things you want to do... unless you really want to break the game.

I don't believe that is a legit reading. You must still meet the prerequisites. Here is what that paragraph means.

Exception for Bonus Feat: The Chameleon class also gets a bonus feat, which can be changed periodically. This bonus feat, unlike the abilities mentioned above, can be used to qualify for feats, prestige classes, and other options.

Consequences of Changing Bonus Feat: If the player changes this bonus feat, they must deal with the normal consequences of not meeting a feat's prerequisites. This could mean losing the ability to use the feat or losing the benefits of a prestige class or other options that required the initial bonus feat.

You can't use the bonus floating feat to qualify for anything based off other class features.


If you want to break it then yes, you could take trapsmith 5 to qualify for Improved Spell Capacity then chameleon and cast 9th level spells or higher.

Definitely an option but you still need to be epic.

[holbita]

Ah, yes

You still need to have the other requirements. So you would need to be level 21 before you do this with your bonus feat.

[loky1109]

I'm not sure you can select epic feat as chameleon's bonus feat.

[redking]

I'm not sure you can select epic feat as chameleon's bonus feat.


Bonus Feat (Ex): At 2nd level, you gain a bonus feat. You must meet the prerequisites for this feat. At the start of each day, you can choose to change your bonus feat to any other feat for which you meet the prerequisites.

Bonus Feat (Ex): At 2nd level, you gain a bonus feat. This part of the class feature allows you to pick a bonus feat, with no restrictions specified on the type of feat, as long as you are of the appropriate level to select a feat.

Prerequisites: "You must meet the prerequisites for this feat." For epic feats, this includes being of an epic level (21st level or higher). As long as you meet these prerequisites, which are typically listed with the feat itself, you can choose that feat.

Daily Selection: "At the start of each day, you can choose to change your bonus feat to any other feat for which you meet the prerequisites." This flexibility suggests that if on any given day you meet the prerequisites for an epic feat, you can choose it as your bonus feat.

The Chameleon's Bonus Feat class feature allows for the selection of any feat for which the character meets the prerequisites. If the character is level 21 or higher and meets other specific requirements for an epic feat, then according to the feature as described, selecting an epic feat is within the rules.

[Arcanist]

I'm not sure you can select epic feat as chameleon's bonus feat.

Why not?


Bonus Feat (Ex): At 2nd level, you gain a bonus feat. You must meet the prerequisites for this feat. At the start of each day, you can choose to change your bonus feat to any other feat for which you meet the prerequisites.

What about this would disqualify Epic feats from qualifying? Are they not feats? Can you never meet the prerequisites for them?

[Crake]

You can get 9th level spell slots on a chameleon by just getting CL4 somehow for extra spell slot. My personal favourite is using eidetic spellcaster wizard to get the eidetic spellbook which your chameleon can then use for their arcane spellbook.

Then, just use some combination of sanctum spell, snowcasting, heighten spell, earth spell and possibly versatile spellcaster, if you can nab a way to qualify for it (spontaneous divination wizard is a decent way), then use your floating bonus feat to nab an extra spell slot feat 1-3 levels higher than your normal maximum. Then, when you next get a real feat, you can get a permanent spell slot of 1-3 higher than that, and swap out your bonus feat for ANOTHER bonus slot of 1-3 higher than THAT one, hence the notion of "leapfrogging", because you use your floating bonus feat to leapfrog over a regular feat. If done right, you can get 9th level spellcasting at level 9, but the more consistent method is 9th level spellcasting at level 12. If you don't want to break the game though, you can more consistently achieve it by level 15, which would put chameleon roughly on par with ur-priest, since they get 9th level spells by level 14.

Once you hit 9th level spells, you can spend 2 days with your floating bonus feat using the extra spell feat to learn the dark chaos feat shuffle, then start systematically re-arranging all the jank feats you used to qualify for this mess into permanent extra spell slots. Personally, I arrange it so that I have at least 1 spell slot from 1-9, rather than dumping them all at level 9, that way you get to take advantage of having high ability scores for every spell level. Remember to keep one spell increasing feat (snowcasting or sanctum spell are generally the easiest) so you can continue to pick up extra spells known every day to add to your eidetic spellbook up to level 9.

The only issue I can foresee with the build, if you decide to take it epic, is that the chameleon caster level and spell slots won't qualify you for epic spells. This can be SOMEWHAT alleviated by just making sure that one of those 9th level spell slots is granted to your wizard levels, which you could get to level 11 by the time you qualify for your first epic feat. If your DM insiststs on the minimum caster level rule, you could hit CL 15 with practised spellcaster, and nab a couple of CL boosts from other places, like grabbing two abjuration reserve feats, to allow you to cast 9th level abjurations, which you can DCFS away at level 22 and 23 when your wizard CL increases innately. You could also go with a focused specialist (probably divination, since you probably have spontaneous divination), and use the extra 5th level spell slots you get from that to fuel archmage CL boosts at level 20 and 21, so you have innate CL17 at level 21, for no questions asked full epic spellcasting qualification.

[redking]

Once you hit 9th level spells, you can spend 2 days with your floating bonus feat using the extra spell feat to learn the dark chaos feat shuffle, then start systematically re-arranging all the jank feats you used to qualify for this mess into permanent extra spell slots. Personally, I arrange it so that I have at least 1 spell slot from 1-9, rather than dumping them all at level 9, that way you get to take advantage of having high ability scores for every spell level. Remember to keep one spell increasing feat (snowcasting or sanctum spell are generally the easiest) so you can continue to pick up extra spells known every day to add to your eidetic spellbook up to level 9.


No. Even if the various exploits up to this point we're valid, the bonus feat defines it's capabilities specifically.


Bonus Feat (Ex): At 2nd level, you gain a bonus feat. You must meet the prerequisites for this feat. At the start of each day, you can choose to change your bonus feat to any other feat for which you meet the prerequisites.

Permanent Feat Slots: When leveling up and acquiring a new, permanent feat, the prerequisites must be met at that time. The Chameleon's floating bonus feat cannot be used to qualify for these permanent feats since changing the floating feat later would mean you no longer meet the necessary prerequisites.

Temporary Nature of Bonus Feat: The Chameleon class is designed to have a flexible bonus feat to allow for adaptability, not as a means to bypass the feat progression system. Prerequisite feats are intended to be a permanent part of a character's skill set, whereas the Chameleon's bonus feat is subject to change and therefore doesn't provide the stability required to serve as a prerequisite for other feats.

Rule of Feat Prerequisites: According to the rules, you must continuously meet the prerequisites for a feat to benefit from it. Utilizing the Chameleon's bonus feat to qualify for another feat, then switching it out, would result in the loss of the use of the new feat because the prerequisite (the original bonus feat) is no longer present.

What I am interested in is whether Improved Spell Capacity does apply to Chameleon, as long as it is gained legitimately. Also, once the higher levels slots are gained, does the Chameleon have access to the higher level spell lists on the arcane and divine sides, or is the Chameleon limited to using these slots for spells from levels 1 -6 that have metamagic applied to them.

[Morphic tide]

Permanent Feat Slots: When leveling up and acquiring a new, permanent feat, the prerequisites must be met at that time. The Chameleon's floating bonus feat cannot be used to qualify for these permanent feats since changing the floating feat later would mean you no longer meet the necessary prerequisites.
Rather, you can take it but lose the benefit when the prerequisite is used, the way you lose the benefit of Two-Weapon Fighting if your Dexterity is reduced below 13.


Temporary Nature of Bonus Feat: The Chameleon class is designed to have a flexible bonus feat to allow for adaptability, not as a means to bypass the feat progression system. Prerequisite feats are intended to be a permanent part of a character's skill set, whereas the Chameleon's bonus feat is subject to change and therefore doesn't provide the stability required to serve as a prerequisite for other feats.
This is a matter of near-certain but unexpressed intent, not something that binds the rule that was written.


Rule of Feat Prerequisites: According to the rules, you must continuously meet the prerequisites for a feat to benefit from it. Utilizing the Chameleon's bonus feat to qualify for another feat, then switching it out, would result in the loss of the use of the new feat because the prerequisite (the original bonus feat) is no longer present.
You don't lose the new feat, only the benefit from it. It's still there, benefit restored whenever you meet the condition, the same as ability prerequisites and damage.

The reason you need to have Chameleon 9 for it is that the first floating feat qualifies you for the second, then Earth/Sanctum Spell causes the second to qualify for itself when you switch the first. In so doing, you can climb as high as you'd like, then spend a permanent feat to lock it. This is typically done with both Earth and Sanctum to cast a spell two levels above your normal limit so one level below that is one level higher than you normally have, thus letting you do it pre-Epic with Extra Slot to get a 9th-level spell slot at character level 14. Notably, this actually has to be from a non-Chameleon class as the Chameleon's casting cannot qualify you for feats.


What I am interested in is whether Improved Spell Capacity does apply to Chameleon, as long as it is gained legitimately. Also, once the higher levels slots are gained, does the Chameleon have access to the higher level spell lists on the arcane and divine sides, or is the Chameleon limited to using these slots for spells from levels 1 -6 that have metamagic applied to them.
As I understand it, the Chameleon using the list of another class means that if you somehow get a 7th+ spell slot, you get to use it on that class's spells so long as you can continue meeting them.

[redking]

As I understand it, the Chameleon using the list of another class means that if you somehow get a 7th+ spell slot, you get to use it on that class's spells so long as you can continue meeting them.

The divine and arcane spells of this class only go up to level 6.

[Morphic tide]

The divine and arcane spells of this class only go up to level 6.
Only if you're a Bard and... What else, exactly? Seriously, how many 3.X classes end at 6ths? If you somehow get the slot, you're not referring to some "Chameleon" spell list that only has spells up to 6th level, you're referring to the list of the class you chose with Aptitude Focus, and you'd be quite the fool to be sticking by one that lacks 7th+ level spells at this point. The trouble is far more in getting it to be a Chameleon slot, because you cannot use it to qualify for feats, prestige classes, or "other option(s)". The usual copout is "almost none of that says it has to be the source used to qualify", a reading that Ur-Priest Theurges would be quite intensely interested in to extend early 9ths to the Arcane progression.

[Crake]

No. Even if the various exploits up to this point we're valid, the bonus feat defines it's capabilities specifically.



Permanent Feat Slots: When leveling up and acquiring a new, permanent feat, the prerequisites must be met at that time. The Chameleon's floating bonus feat cannot be used to qualify for these permanent feats since changing the floating feat later would mean you no longer meet the necessary prerequisites.

Temporary Nature of Bonus Feat: The Chameleon class is designed to have a flexible bonus feat to allow for adaptability, not as a means to bypass the feat progression system. Prerequisite feats are intended to be a permanent part of a character's skill set, whereas the Chameleon's bonus feat is subject to change and therefore doesn't provide the stability required to serve as a prerequisite for other feats.

Rule of Feat Prerequisites: According to the rules, you must continuously meet the prerequisites for a feat to benefit from it. Utilizing the Chameleon's bonus feat to qualify for another feat, then switching it out, would result in the loss of the use of the new feat because the prerequisite (the original bonus feat) is no longer present.

What I am interested in is whether Improved Spell Capacity does apply to Chameleon, as long as it is gained legitimately. Also, once the higher levels slots are gained, does the Chameleon have access to the higher level spell lists on the arcane and divine sides, or is the Chameleon limited to using these slots for spells from levels 1 -6 that have metamagic applied to them.

The only preprequisite of extra spell and extra spell slot is CL3 and CL4 respectively, which you meet from your wizard levels. The rest of it is just limitations on what can be selected by the feat, but those are not prerequisites, and are thus not subject to the chameleon's normal limitations on what it can qualify for.


You don't lose the new feat, only the benefit from it. It's still there, benefit restored whenever you meet the condition, the same as ability prerequisites and damage.

Correct, but the thing is, the prerequisite as noted above, has nothing to do with what spell level you can cast, so if you can boost your spell level to 10, then pick a 9th level spell slot, but then lose your ability to cast 10th level spells, you don't actually lose the benefit of your extra slot feat, you KEEP the 9th level spell slot, you just can't get any MORE 9th level spell slots.

The reason you want to maintain the ability to cast 10th level spells is actually so you can keep rerolling your bonus feat into extra spell, so you can repeatedly learn 9th level spells until you have them all in your spellbook. Since they're in your spellbook, you don't lose them when you re-roll your feat, and can just slowly learn every spell in the game.

The only time you would lose the benefits of your feats is when your highest caster level drops below 4.