Artificer gets Craft Humunc at 4th level but can't use it until 5th?

[shipshape]

Am I missing something basic about artificer crafting?

At 4th level artificer gets Craft Homunculus (Ex), which states: "... an artificer can create a homunculus as if he had the Craft Construct feat. He must emulate the spell requirements (arcane eye, mending, and mirror image for the basic homunculus described in the Monster Manual.) as normal..."

Arcane Eye is a 4th level spell, and the Item Creation (Ex) class feature states: "An artificer can create a magic item even if he does not have access to the spells that are prerequisites for the item. The artificer must make a successful Use Magic Device check (DC 20 + caster level) to emulate each spell normally required to create the item... ...For purposes of meeting item prerequisites, an artificer's effective caster level equals his artificer level +2. If the item duplicates a spell effect, however, it uses the artificer's actual level as its caster level. Costs are always determined using the item's minimum caster level or the artificer's actual level (if it is higher). Thus, a 3rd-level artificer can make a scroll of fireball, since the minimum caster level for fireball is 5th."

Since 4th level spells normally require 7th level, artificer would get (solo) access at 5th level, correct?

Furthermore, everyone everywhere suggests crafting the dedicated wright first - which has a fabricate prereq. 5th level spell, so 7th level artificer to do that, a full 3 levels after getting the craft humunc feature.

I know that scrolls could be used to satisfy these requirements, but this being in an E6 game, 4th+ level scrolls are a rarity / possibly unobtainable.

Am I missing something about crafting? Is the thought that the arti has a level to get their lab up and running before finishing their first lil buddy? Just an oversight by the sloppy sloppy artificer designers (my vote)?

[Harrow]

Hmmm. That does look to me like the designers didn't bother to check what level the spell requirements were for making a homunculus when they gave that ability. I'm not sure if there's really a work-around, other than explaining the problem to your DM and hoping they understand. While I know this wasn't author intent, my first instinct is to check alternate spell lists. And, wouldn't you know it, Trapsmiths get Arcane Eye as a 2nd level spell at caster level 3, so even a first level Artificer could emulate it. The problem here of course being that a Trapsmith 3 would be an 8th level character and not exist in an e6 world. And if your Artificer were allowed to make spells that they meet the requirements for from classes that exceed the level cap, then you could just buy any 4th level scroll that you wanted, including Arcane Eye, from another Artificer of at least 5th level.

Edit: This feels pretty cheesy, and I don't know enough about e6 to know if it would even work. Would it be possible for a character to be, say, Rogue 5 / Trapsmith 1, then lose a level permanently from energy drain, losing a single Rogue level? Then, you could level up, taking a second level of Trapsmith. Repeat until you're Rogue 1 / Trapsmith 5. I think that could give you access to 3rd level Trapsmith spells in an e6 environment. And, if such a character could hypothetically exist, then an Artificer should be able to copy their spells. Which include both Arcane Eye at spell level 2, caster level 3, and Fabricate at spell level 3, caster level 5. It's making a lot of assumptions, so I wouldn't expect a DM to go for it, but you lose nothing by making the argument.

[KillianHawkeye]

This feels pretty cheesy, and I don't know enough about e6 to know if it would even work. Would it be possible for a character to be, say, Rogue 5 / Trapsmith 1, then lose a level permanently from energy drain, losing a single Rogue level? Then, you could level up, taking a second level of Trapsmith. Repeat until you're Rogue 1 / Trapsmith 5. I think that could give you access to 3rd level Trapsmith spells in an e6 environment. And, if such a character could hypothetically exist, then an Artificer should be able to copy their spells. Which include both Arcane Eye at spell level 2, caster level 3, and Fabricate at spell level 3, caster level 5. It's making a lot of assumptions, so I wouldn't expect a DM to go for it, but you lose nothing by making the argument.

Level drain generally starts with removing your latest level. You don't get to choose. So no, you can't use that method to replace levels in one class for another.

[ShurikVch]

It's Evil, and kinda "overkill" for our purpose there, but successful sacrifice (Book of Vile Darkness) can get you effect of Limited Wish (DC 40) - or even Wish (DC 50, 1/lifetime) - spell, which can be used to emulate lower-level spell

[Chronos]

Maybe there's some other homonculus that has lower requirements, and that's the one they're supposed to be able to make at 4th level?

[AnonJr]

Maybe there's some other homonculus that has lower requirements, and that's the one they're supposed to be able to make at 4th level?

I've been thinking about this thread since it was originally posted. I checked the homunculi in the Eberron Campaign Setting and Magic of Eberron, and they all have the same problem. Never really noticed it, though it would never have impacted the Artificers I've played as I don't usually do that kind of crafting until another level or two after getting the feat.

[Crake]

The issue is that you're misapplying the rules for the artificer. The Homonculus only has a caster level requirement of 4, this is the only caster level requirement you need to meet. For meeting SPELL requirements, you simply use the UMD check. Because you are not actually CASTING arcane eye, you do not need to meet any caster level requirements for it, you are merely emulating it for the purposes of crafting.

If you wanted to make a SCROLL of arcane eye, then yes, you would need to hit CL5, but for simply meeting the prerequisites of an item, you just need to do the UMD check. The only caster level requirement you need to meet is that of the item you're crafting, if it even has one.

Take a bottle of air for example (since it was the one used in the ability). It has no caster level requirement, it simply has a spell requirement, so to craft the bottle, the artificer need only make a DC27 UMD check in the crafting process to emulate water breathing. They can then craft the bottle of air, though it's caster level would be whatever their own caster level is, making it more vulnerable to dispels.

[Harrow]

Level drain generally starts with removing your latest level. You don't get to choose. So no, you can't use that method to replace levels in one class for another.

I assumed that was the case, but couldn't find any rules stating as much when I made my post, so I thought it might work. All I could find was that your level "drops by one" without anything specifying which level you lose. Where does it say that you have to lose the latest level you gained?

[Powerdork]

I mean, it only logically follows that if you're a 7th-level bard and you lose a level, your stats change such that you become a 6th-level bard, and if you're a fighter 4/sorcerer 4/rogue 4 (a 12th-level character), and you lose a level such that you become an 11th-level character, your stats change such that you become a 3rd-level fighter, a 3rd-level sorcerer, or a 3rd-level rogue (while remaining 4th level in your other two classes).

I hate not having a more concrete source than the above conjecture, but if you want a less concrete source than that, you can also look at the FAQ ("Sage Advice"). My copy of the document, dated 6/27/03, reads,


The rules on page 153 of the Player’s Handbook say a character who is resurrected immediately loses a level of experience, or a point of Constitution if the character is 1st level. If a multiclass character is brought back to life, (for instance, a 5th-level fighter/4th-level wizard) does the character get to choose which level is removed? Or is it the highest level that the character has attained? Would this level loss immediately result in the –20% XP loss if the levels differed by more than 1?
You lose the highest level; this may actually remove an XP penalty by making character’s class levels more even.

I have reason to disagree with this ruling, chiefly because I believe the only excuse to do it this way is memory issues, but character builds are such particular and intimate things that nobody should be forgetting what their most recent levels are.

[Darg]

I have reason to disagree with this ruling, chiefly because I believe the only excuse to do it this way is memory issues, but character builds are such particular and intimate things that nobody should be forgetting what their most recent levels are.

That's what the ruling said though. In the question, they used "highest level" to mean most recent and so the response used the same terminology to keep it consistent.

[Malphegor]

You also can just hire a spellcaster or a higher level artificer to help provide the spell for your crafting. Collaboration is useful when it comes to construction of robots.

[ShurikVch]

It's a bit late for this thread - but I just found one more way to dodge the spell/level requirements: Van Richten's Arsenal includes Alchemical Homunculus feat, which allow to create Homunculus without any of required spells - just plain DC 25 Craft (alchemy) check, cost 140 gp and 25 XP, and resulting Homunculus even get acid resistance 10
(25 is a lot, but there are some ways to do it before the 5th level)