Stalwart Battle Sorcerer + Divine Crusader = A Sturdy Full Caster?

[quetzalcoatl5]

So I've been playing with this idea... The Divine Crusader is usually seen as means to staple on 9th level spell casting to a martial frame, but what if it was instead used to make a Gish-in-a-Can who had second thoughts go back to school and become something of a full caster? The requirements are extremely easy to meet, except the +7 BAB which makes early entry difficult.

On the other hand, the Sorcerer has two alternate class features that dubiously combine to form a pretty durable 9th level spell caster with medium BAB and Weapon Focus in a melee weapon! It usually is frowned upon at higher levels of play because it lacks both the spell slots and spells known of a standard Sorcerer.

My thought is go Stalwart Battle Sorcerer and take your free Weapon Focus in a weapon that corresponds to a deity with a good domain's favored weapon. The medium BAB would then allow you entry at 11th level, but we can do better than that! You can enter Abjurant Champion at 8th level, taking two levels gets you some tasty class features and lets you enter Divine Crusader 1 level earlier. Take 2 levels of Divine Crusader and then 8 of Mystic Theurge, finishing up with one last Stalwart Battle Sorcerer level. You end up with 2 pools of spell slots based on Charisma, getting 9ths at the same level a solo class standard Sorcerer would get them with more spell slots by default for 1st-8th level and just as many spells known (although you are restricted how you spend them). You'll feel stunted in the early teens, but you catch up quickly. Meanwhile, your early levels will be spent as a pretty durable caster, when you can't rely on spells as much anyway.

It honestly feels like what a prestige class should be for a caster: a focusing on one aspect of your character, shifting you from a generalist to a specialized caster. It's very Jedi-ish. Using a weapon attack at low levels and shifting to your magical powers as you gain levels.

You finish with a 13 BAB compared to a straight Sorcerer's 10, 10d8+2d10+8d4+16+(20*Con) HP which averages to about 105 plus Con compared to 60 plus Con, and you can cast in light armor.

Divine Crusader gets you super fast progression of one domain and there are lots of cool options that can massively expand your spell options. You also get a domain power and many of those are quite useful, ranging from excellent powers to bonus feat.

Since this is a build that presupposes that your DM would be cool with a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer, you probably would be clear to use a Bloodline feat from the Dragon Compendium which not only takes the sting out of the spells known situation a little, it can also interact in fun ways, either in theme or options. Of note is the Necromantic, which synergizes very well with the Undeath Domain (maybe you're a Sorcerer Knight from Karnath in Eberron), and enables through the Kin Mastery feat for you to Turn Undead, and the Undeath Domain happens to grant Extra Turning as a bonus feat: hello divine/devotion feat!

While there's the opportunity cost of not being able to enter other prestige classes that would expand your power, the investment to get here is rather low. Minimal skill ranks and only one feat (Combat Casting) that doesn't come for free.

Level Class 0th 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4 2
2nd Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 5 3
3rd Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 5 4
4th Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 5 5 2
5th Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 5 5 3
6th Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 5 5 4 2
7th Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 5 5 5 3
8th Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 5 5 5 4 2
9th Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 5 5 5 5 3
10th Divine Cusader 5 5+0 5 5 3
11th Divine Cusader 5 5+1 5+0 5 3
12th Mystic Theurge 5 5+2 5+1 5+0 4 2
13th Mystic Theurge 5 5+2 5+2 5+1 5+0 3
14th Mystic Theurge 5 5+3 5+2 5+2 5+1 4+0 2
15th Mystic Theurge 5 5+3 5+3 5+2 5+2 5+1 3+0
16th Mystic Theurge 5 5+3 5+3 5+3 5+2 5+2 4+1 2+0
17th Mystic Theurge 5 5+3 5+3 5+3 5+3 5+2 5+2 3+1 +0
18th Mystic Theurge 5 5+3 5+3 5+3 5+3 5+3 5+2 4+2 2+1 +0
19th Mystic Theurge 5 5+3 5+3 5+3 5+3 5+3 5+3 5+2 3+2 +1
20th Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 5 5+3 5+3 5+3 5+3 5+3 5+3 5+3 4+2 2+1

Level Class 0th 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 3 1 — — — — — — — —
2nd Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4 1 — — — — — — — —
3rd Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4 1 — — — — — — — —
4th Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 5 2 1 — — — — — — —
5th Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 5 3 1 — — — — — — —
6th Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 6 3 1 1 — — — — — —
7th Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 6 4 2 1 — — — — — —
8th Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 7 4 2 1 1 — — — — —
9th Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 7 4 3 2 1 — — — — —
10th Divine Cusader 7 4+1 3 2 1 — — — — —
11th Divine Cusader 7 4+1 3+1 3 1 — — — — —
12th Mystic Theurge 8 4+1 3+1 2+1 1 1 — — — —
13th Mystic Theurge 8 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1 — — — —
14th Mystic Theurge 8 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 1 — — —
15th Mystic Theurge 8 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 — — —
16th Mystic Theurge 8 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 1+1 — —
17th Mystic Theurge 8 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 -+1 —
18th Mystic Theurge 8 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 1+1 -+1
19th Mystic Theurge 8 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 2+1 1+1 -+1
20th Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 8 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 2+1 1+1 1+1

Is this a thing? Does this make sense?

[Bavarian itP]

Yes, this works (if your DM allows Stalwart Battle Sorcerer. If not, your choice of weapon proficiency and therefore gods is restricted, and you need to blow a feat on weapon focus). You could do something similar with a Duskblade as base class - Duskblade casting, but easier entry and four attacks.

The problem with the Divine Crusader, I think, is that strong domains are usually those that expand the Cleric's repertoire, i.e. offer a lot of Sor/Wiz spells. But since the Divine Crusader doesn't have Cleric casting, what domains would count as strong for them?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Is there any specific domain you would pick to accomplish something that you couldn't do without multiclassing caster classes? Keep in mind your Divine Crusader caster level is going to be super low without extra effort.

Going from Stalwart Battle Sorcerer to Mystic Theurge honestly feels like a step backward. You've traded some of your spellcasting ability for more fighting ability. But then you trade out progressing your fighting ability for more spellcasting, but extremely limited spellcasting that doesn't mesh well. You can't use those divine spell slots for Arcane Strike, and those are prepared slots so you can't use them for Versatile Spellcaster. If you're multiclassing out of Sorcerer for more than half your levels, it's probably not even worth taking the Stalwart portion since the greatest benefit is the added hp/level.

Divine Crusader is best used with dips into Contemplative, Seeker of the Misty Isle, etc. for more domains and thus more spells known, and Sacred Exorcist for DMM: Persist. You're losing too much Sorcerer casting if you go that route, plus the skill requirements on those aren't great for the build. If your gripe about SB Sorcerer is too few spells known, use a bloodline feat or (ancestral relic) custom runestaff or similar trick that normal Sorcerers use.

If you want to make a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer a better spellcaster, use spell points instead of spell slots. I've personally played a single-classed Battle Sorcerer with spell points in the past and it felt really good. I had plenty of wraithstrikes and benign transpositions (with an improved familiar blink dog), effectively having more lower level slots in exchange for fewer high level slots just makes it work.

[Morphic tide]

I'll note that the comparison for SBS 7/Abjurant Champion 2/Divine Crusader 2/Mystic Theurge 8/SBS +1 versus straight SBS 20 is actually 8+19d8+20+20*Con vs. 8+9d8+2d10+8d4+14+20*Con, for averages of 113.5+20*Con vs. 93.5+20*Con. Interestingly, SBS 8 is actually better than AbChamp 3, as that's the one "dead" level of that PRC, but it's a difference of one average hit point so if you're looking at continuing into Epic.


Is there any specific domain you would pick to accomplish something that you couldn't do without multiclassing caster classes? Keep in mind your Divine Crusader caster level is going to be super low without extra effort.

Going from Stalwart Battle Sorcerer to Mystic Theurge honestly feels like a step backward. You've traded some of your spellcasting ability for more fighting ability. But then you trade out progressing your fighting ability for more spellcasting, but extremely limited spellcasting that doesn't mesh well. You can't use those divine spell slots for Arcane Strike, and those are prepared slots so you can't use them for Versatile Spellcaster. If you're multiclassing out of Sorcerer for more than half your levels, it's probably not even worth taking the Stalwart portion since the greatest benefit is the added hp/level.

Divine Crusader is best used with dips into Contemplative, Seeker of the Misty Isle, etc. for more domains and thus more spells known, and Sacred Exorcist for DMM: Persist. You're losing too much Sorcerer casting if you go that route, plus the skill requirements on those aren't great for the build. If your gripe about SB Sorcerer is too few spells known, use a bloodline feat or (ancestral relic) custom runestaff or similar trick that normal Sorcerers use.

If you want to make a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer a better spellcaster, use spell points instead of spell slots. I've personally played a single-classed Battle Sorcerer with spell points in the past and it felt really good. I had plenty of wraithstrikes and benign transpositions (with an improved familiar blink dog), effectively having more lower level slots in exchange for fewer high level slots just makes it work.
Interestingly, you can actually drop Contemplative 1 in place of Divine Crusader 2, as it's being taken at 10th for the 13 ranks Knowledge (Religion) and only requires 1st-level Divine spells. Don't even need Turn/Rebuke, and doesn't cost you a point of final BAB if doing fractional accounting.

[pabelfly]

Okay, let's pick apart a few things in the build.

Firstly, the difference between 16 BAB (typical Gish benchmark) and 13 BAB is, firstly, not getting that extra attack roll, and secondly, losing 15% of your attack rolls that you would have otherwise hit. 15% adds up, especially when you're making several rolls per turn. It's a fairly big drop in damage output.

Secondly, the loss of HP is going to hurt. Stalwart Battle Sorcerer has the equivalent of a d12 hit dice, and you're going down to a d4. You're losing 40HP over ten levels. Not ideal for a frontline character.

Thirdly, someone else mentioned that Divine Crusader is typically improved by getting extra domains, which I think deserves a little more elaboration. There are feats and class dips that give you more domains (see "Ways to Expand a Spell list" for a bunch of ways to do this), but you already have an extremely busy build already. Every dip you take makes your BAB worse, every feat you take as a prereq to get that new class means you're not improving your phyiscal attack capabilities, and you're already going to need to spend a few feats making physical attack worthwhile.

Lastly, having two spellcasting pools is overrated without a lot of hard work. It's hard to cast more than one spell a round to make use of that expanded spell pool, but, again, you're spending optimization resources to try to staple two spellcasting progressions together with physical combat prowess.

My suggestion: seems like you'd be better off finding ways to add domains and domain spellcasting to Stalwart Battle Sorcerer and finding ways to bump it up to 16 BAB without losing 9ths. Take the Arcane Disciple feat, or maybe a Bloodline feat instead.

[quetzalcoatl5]

Here I'm thinking that the character starts out as a gish, but pivots into being more caster focused at later levels. At low levels, that improved bab and light armor will go a long way, but that all starts to drop off after around level 6. Stalwart Battle Sorcerer is usually seen as a trap because it doesn't scale very well high levels.

And straight standard Sorcerer is obviously going to have better spell selection and more opportunity to focus on casting at late levels, but prior to around level six is very fragile. Most of the ones I've seen at those levels are going to be poorly using a crossbow more than reshaping the battlefield.

The way I see it, as long as you pick a domain that has spells that you would want to cast more than once a day, it's helping you catch up. The Divine Crusader being a prepared caster also opens up some options for metamagic which would be restricted on a Sorcerer, even with Metamagic Specialist. Domains like Celerity have a great list and a power that probably benefits you more than it would the typically heavily armored Cleric. Domains like Nobility or Courage are great for pivoting to being party support as a buffer.

The two levels of Abjurant Champion gets you swift action abjuration spells, so you do get decent action economy options. With a domain loaded with spells that cost standard actions in combat this pairs well with having lots of spell slots.

Great call on Contemplative, Morphic tide! I figured there'd be a way to grab an extra domain there but hadn't gone digging!

I guess another option would be you could take one level Prestige Paladin at 11. It'd require Mounted Combat. If the DM agrees that that would give the Divine crusader full access to Paladin spell casting, you could then take it Battle Blessing to have those all be bones actions. However, you also need to wrangle Turn Undead here and if you used the aforementioned Kin Mastery route with the Necromantic Bloodline, you would not be allowed to cast any of the healing spells from that list.

Again, The goal is not to make a gish, the goal is to start as a dish and then turn into a conventional spellcaster, albeit little bit more durable.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'll note that the comparison for SBS 7/Abjurant Champion 2/Divine Crusader 2/Mystic Theurge 8/SBS +1 versus straight SBS 20 is actually 8+19d8+20+20*Con vs. 8+9d8+2d10+8d4+14+20*Con, for averages of 113.5+20*Con vs. 93.5+20*Con. Interestingly, SBS 8 is actually better than AbChamp 3, as that's the one "dead" level of that PRC, but it's a difference of one average hit point so if you're looking at continuing into Epic.

Interestingly, you can actually drop Contemplative 1 in place of Divine Crusader 2, as it's being taken at 10th for the 13 ranks Knowledge (Religion) and only requires 1st-level Divine spells. Don't even need Turn/Rebuke, and doesn't cost you a point of final BAB if doing fractional accounting.

Your math is wrong on the hp.

SBS is 1d8+2+Con, so 8+19d8+40+20*Con for an average of 133.5+20*Con
Versus the 93.5+20*Con for the MT build, so it's 40 hp difference, which is not insignificant. That's 43% more base hp.

Abjurant Champion 3 gets +1 to your two weaker saves, so I'd say it's better. Your above build has base saves of +7, +4, +18.

Let's consider what else you would take on a SBS build that doesn't try to mix spellcasting classes. You could go SBS 9/ Dragonslayer 1/ Spellsword 5/ Abjurant Champion 5. That still gets 9th level spells, you can use an animated shield without ASF, you can channel spell 3/day, +17 BAB, 117.5+20*Con hp, base saves of +10, +5, +16, aura of courage, etc. Your feat net cost is zero, with the Otyugh Hole and the fighter feat from Spellsword making up for your Dragonslayer prerequisites. You could even change that to SBS 6/ Incantatrix 3 or 4/ Dragonslayer 1/ Spellsword 5/ Abjurant Champion 5 or 4, which costs you 12 or 15 hp, still has +16 BAB, and gets you Metamagic Effect for 3+Int persistent buffs per day with no feat cost.

Maybe if you did some kind of Fochlucan Lyrist build instead of using MT, just trade one Divine Crusader level for a (Prestige) Bard dip and take nine or ten levels of FL, but that's extremely skill intensive. You'd most likely need to take Able Learner and/or have a decent Int score, and couldn't dip Contemplative without losing Sorcerer 9ths. You could probably wedge in Incantatrix 3 or 4 and still get a +16 BAB, though.

[Troacctid]

I'm really skeptical that you'll find a single domain worth dropping two levels of sorcerer casting for when there are so many easier ways of expanding your spell list. I think it just makes a lot more sense to use ur-priest as the divine base in this sort of build. Or, alternatively, stick with sorcerer and get your extra spells from sand shaper or mage of the arcane order.

[Chronos]

The problem is that this doesn't make you "more of a full caster". A sorcerer, even a stalwart battle sorcerer, is already a full caster. It's relatively weak on the casting, compared to other full casters, but it's still more of a full caster than a divine crusader is. You'd be a better caster and a better martial by staying pure SBS.