Stickies vs Scribblers

[Windscion]

Somewhat unfocused ramblings...

Roy is the undisputed leader of the Order of the Stick. He hired them, and while he freed them from their contracts, they still follow. At first for their own reasons, but now they have some loyalty and have worked out most of their internal issues. And Haley has, somewhat surpisingly, become a quite good second-in-command. (Normally I would expect the cleric to fulfil that role since "don't piss off the healer" are words to keep living by.)

The Scribblers had no undisputed leader, altho Soon clearly tried to assume that position. But they were all volunteers -- "save the planet you are standing on" is a pretty good rallying cry, after all. Now, Soon was probably right in thinking they needed leadership, but wrong in thinking that his style of military leadership was applicable. (Girard's use of "fascist goons" to describe Soon's followers supports this reading.)

Soon was certainly successful at building his own organization of oath-bound followers, so it wasn't that he couldn't lead.

What type of leadership would have helped the Scribbler's stay together? Someone more flexible, but Serini would have been unacceptable to Soon, and she is more of a classic 'from the shadows' type of rogue in sharp contrast to Action Girl Haley. Kraagor is out, he was a berserkser. Durokan would have had Lirian's support, or perhaps the other way around. Certainly Girard would have been a problem for any leader, and I think would have been as bad a leader as Soon albiet in very different ways. But I see no evidence that anyone else, even Girard, sought the position.

Put another way: Could Roy have successfully led the Scribblers? Certainly he would have handled Girard Draketooth a lot better. Roy isn't exactly enamored of the Gods as a group, for one thing.

If Miko was the embodiment of a paladin played badly, Soon seems to have been a paladin played how the class was written ... not exactly badly, but making party dynamics quite challenging.

[woweedd]

Yeah, it seems like the Scribblers are showing how a group like the Stickies could go wrong. Like the Stickers, and, indeed, most D&D parties ever, the Scribblers were a bunch of conflicting personalities who would normally never interact, but did for the sake of the sake of intersting comedy and drama (well, and the quest, but that's the real reason), but the Stick, as we've seen, have moved past their initial dysfunction, becoming more or less friends and an effective team who can rely on one another in battle. The Scribblers never got that far. Once the quest was over, they wanted nothing to do with each other. Turns out, the comedy and dramatic hijinks caused by their contrast led to them violently self-destructing as a group the instant the quest was over. And, indeed, each of the Scribble members matches up with one of the Order members, exhibiting what they would have become if they hadn't developed so much as characters over the course of the comic. In order:

Roy, naturally, matches to Soon. They're the guys whose personal vendetta started this whole thing, they're leaders, and they started out as kinda emotionally-distant jerks. But, when Roy was presented the choice Soon made in the end: When Elan got kidnapped. He was given a choice. Save his fellow party member, at great risk to himself and the rest of his party, or let them die for some greater good. Soon made the choice, to prioritize sealing the Snarl over Kraggor's life. Roy, on the other end, ending up taking the risk to rescue Elan. That was the turning point in Roy's character, the big moment he realized the importance of valuing his team and, in so doing, EARNED their loyalty, whereas Soon's choice ended up making the rest of his party abandon him, because he had shown that, to him, they were...Disposable.
Dorukan, as you might suspect, parreals Vaarsuvius. An egotistical wizard with absolute faith in the powers of arcane magic to see through any problem, and not the type to play well with others. They even both had the same major turning point: Fighting Xykon and getting UTTERLY DEMOLISHED by their overreliance on their own arcane power. But, thankfully, V survived, and, throughout the comic since, has taken more and more of a supporting role, negating enemy casters with counterspells or the like, buffing, while letting the rest of the party handle matters. V has accepted that there are problems they NEED other people for, that they can't lean on nothing but their own magic to carry the day.
Girard, naturally, matches up with Haley: Chaotic-aligned second-in-command to a Lawful leader, issues with authority, and, of course, Girard held the same philosophy that Haley was raised under: You can't trust anyone but family. But Haley eventually learned to open up, to trust others, while Girard's irrational paranoia towards anyone not his family seems to have only gotten worse over time. Haley was partly made into a better person by her relationship with Elan, someone who she learned to trust more then anyone else in the world, considering him honorary family, while Girard's family never trusted their "in-laws" beyond their ability to produce more Draketooths, abandoning them once the deed was done. It also helps that, while Haley may be paranoid, she's a lot better at being suspicious of things there was good reason to be suspicious of (IE she tweaked that the Linear Guild were bad news from moment 1), while Girard seems to have been remarkably bad at the whole paranoia thing, judging by his having seriously thought that paladins would willingly break their oaths just to interfere with his Gate. Draketooth gets the most focus in Book 5, a book which also heavily focuses on Haley's development.
Lirian is hard to fit into this, because we know very little about who she is, you could argue she matches Durkon, (divine casters, hates trees VS a nature lover), but I would say, if she matches anyone, it's Elan. Blonde, romantically involved with a fellow party member, and, it seems, similarly idealistic, given her unwillingness to finish Xykon and Redcloak after they were incapacitated. But, whereas Elan eventually had his idealism hit with a heaping dose of harsh reality that has made him far more effective as a support, Lirian not only didn't bother to finish them off, she didn't even post GUARDS, and it got her killed. Not to mention her overspecialization in nature magic, or, indeed, her getting out a dying declaration that ends up informing Xykon (and Redcloak, and the Dark One) that there's MORE THEN ONE GATE.
Belkar and Serini seems to be the most clear-cut parallel. Both Halflings, both get along far better with non-humanoids then with their fellow man (Belkar with his animal companions, her with her various monster friends), but they seem to have had opposite directions of change throughout their lives. Belkar started out as a total jerkass who the rest of the party at best vaguely tolerated and at worst outright hated, but, over time, he's become a kinder person, a valuable member of the team, and, while he's still nowhere near being a Good or even Neutral person, he's started on the slow road to being a better man. Serini, on the other hand, was kind, empathic, and seemed to be the true heart of the Scribble, but, as her life has gone on, she's only gotten more cynical, bitter, and apathic to the world at large.
Durkon, then, by process of elimination, matches Kraggor, and, while this is the loosest connection, it still kinda works. Both dwarves, both rather tanky, both seemingly very well-liked by the rest of the party, and both died performing heroic sacrifices. But, it's hard to tell, since Kraggor is someone we know very little about in comparison to the rest of the group...Which in and of itself, maybe fits the parreal. Durkon, up until Book 6, was always the least focused on as a character of the Order, and that fact even sorta became part of his character, as his main flaw, brought up many times later on, is often said to be lack of assertiveness, his willingness to play bystander, to the point where he spent most of the book 4 sitting on his thumbs doing nothing to solve the split party problem. We see it in flashback too, with his failing to help Roy following a philosophy to not try and help lest he make things worse. He was, fitting for his class, a follower, someone willing to go along with what other people wanted, and part of the development the Vampire gave him was making him more assertive, defiant, willing to make his own choices. How easily Kraggor fades into the background, even in flashback, may be something of a nod to that? BIt of a strech, but I could see it.

[Tzardok]

I don't think the choices of Roy and Soon can be compared. Roy had the choice between abandoning Elan for his own convenience and saving him. Soon was faced with a tactical decision that could have killed Soon, Kraagor, both or neither, depending on how it went, and would save the world.

[Kol Korran]

Interesting discussion.
First of all, While I do agree with most of the analysis and character comparison between the orders, I also agree with the above poster, that you can't really compare Soon sacrificing Kraagor to Roy's choice whether to leave or rescue Elan. Soon's choice was between the two bad results- Death of Kraagor, or possibly the Snarl breaking loose/ killing more of them. In Roy's case it was between his own anger and frustration of Elan, and overcoming himself.

I think Soon was a fairly good leader (At least from the little we know), but I think the Stickers overall better team function at the end comparing to the Scribblers, stemmed from something else:
Their incompetence and recurrent failures.

Yep. It may seem counter intuitive, bu let me explain- the main reason, at least in my opinion, that the Stickers function better now than the Scribblers did is... because they failed so much.

The Stickers started out as grossly incompetent, and have messed things up, again and again, and came through only by self development, working out their differences, learning to work together, again and again and again and... well, you get the idea. More importantly- All of their successes were of the bitter-sweet variety: They succeeded in the goal, but many times at great cost, and the end situation always left... complexities.

Heck- they had to blow up/ failed to save all of the gates so far! To sum things up- The Stickers' journey was fraught with failures, triumphs, realizing weaknesses, flaws, overcoming them, in themselves and in others, and accepting complexities.

Or in other words- Their incompetence FORCED them to develop and undergo growth.

The Scribblers however, at least from the little that we know through their portrayal in the comic, worked quite well from the start- they seem competent, synergizing, sealing all the gates till... the last one, where they seemed to have their first mixed success with loss.

And... I think thet weren't prepared to deal with this failure. They were all very, very good at what they did, and didn't fail often. So they didn't need to face their flaws, or other people's flaws, face failures and overcome them. They never needed to undergo growth as a team.

And when that failure struck, and since their mission was done (And so it couldn't keep them together despite themselves, as the Stickers goal did), they didn't have the maturity and the emotional, mental and social tools and capabilities to deal with the loss.

The Stickers came close to that, in the pyramid when Durkon died. But they didn't. Why? Mainly two things:
- By that point most characters have already had some growth, or were in the process of it, AND they knew each others' failings and weaknesses, to both reassure and use them.
- They still had a mission to finish. While Roy was on the verge of giving it up, Belkar reminding him of it, and the horrible price paid for it, kept them going.

The Stickers didn't have these two factors. Perhaps, if Kraagor's sacrifice happened while sealing the 2nd or 3rd gate, the mission could have kept them together long enough till they could evolve out of their pain and disagreement, but since their mission ended this wasn't the case so they... broke up.

As to Roy Vs. soon as leaders? I think Soon was probably the better tactician and combat leader, but Roy was more the "group manager" type of leader. Roy had to deal with a very dysfunctional group, each one with major character/ personality problems, each one a major mess all by himself. But that's the thing- He HAD to DEAL with that, and so he became better at leading the PEOPLE, themselves, not necessarily the combat. Notice that in the second part of Durkon's arch, Roy inspires his people, devise strategies with them, but doesn't focus on leading the battle as much as he did in ghe past. And they came to trust him. And accept hia leadership because his leadership helped them as individuals and as a group, and surprisingly mostly out of combat.

While I don't know enough of Soon, I get the impression that Soon mostly led them strategy and tactics wise, but never managed them as people or their team dynamics. He assumed his leadership through authority, not by merit or the trust of his teammates. While Roy said he was the team's leader at the start, he didn't really believed it, had doubts in his abilities all the way, and WORKED at it! Soon grew into leadership, but I am unsure how much he invested in it, invested in his teammates...

That is my opinion at least.

[KorvinStarmast]

No two adventuring parties are the same. While comparisons can be attempted, each small group made up of individuals will achieve its own equilibrium (or close approximation thereof).

[Tubercular Ox]

No two adventuring parties are the same. While comparisons can be attempted, each small group made up of individuals will achieve its own equilibrium (or close approximation thereof).

Sure, but once you introduce an author who's trying to convey personality as efficiently as possible, analogy is inevitable as a teaching tool.

The formula is, "Like X, only Y."

[KorvinStarmast]

Sure, but once you introduce an author who's trying to convey personality as efficiently as possible, analogy is inevitable as a teaching tool.

The formula is, "Like X, only Y." I disagree with inevitable, or even necessary, but I understand what you are getting at. Sometimes, it is better to enjoy the story as it unfolds before you rather than trying to get at the bones of the ox.

[Provengreil]

I really don't think the Order of the Scribble (nor the Vectors, for that matter) are meant to have a one to one mapping to the Order of the Stick. Roy to Soon and Belkar to Serini I'd buy, but that seems more of a circumstance of how the characters are developed to Rich's needs than an intentional writing goal: he's already played that out with the Linear Guild to the maximum effect he could get from it.

[Precure]

I don't think it's a coincidence that all four adventuring parties had six member teams.

[Lord Torath]

I don't think it's a coincidence that all four adventuring parties had six member teams.Rich has obviously played Baldur's Gate I & II. :smallamused:

[Tubercular Ox]

Rich has obviously played Baldur's Gate I & II. :smallamused:

Actually, I think "opinions about a balanced adventuring party" could be a legitimate reason for Rich to prefer a certain party structure. It's a less literary explanation, for people who like that, but I'm still deeply curious about how each of the parties slot into those opinions, if they exist.

[Windscion]

Actually, I think "opinions about a balanced adventuring party" could be a legitimate reason for Rich to prefer a certain party structure. It's a less literary explanation, for people who like that, but I'm still deeply curious about how each of the parties slot into those opinions, if they exist.

Tarquin remarks that they are a standard adventurers party: Fighter, Wizard, Healer, Rogue and Bard/5th man. Plus Belkar, who he dismisses as comedy relief. While Tarquin is a seriously unreliable witness on some matters, this was a professional opinion expressed to probably his best friend ever. So I agree with your statement.

[brian 333]

Rich has obviously played Baldur's Gate I & II. :smallamused:

Balder's Gate 1 is the superior product.

[Provengreil]

Actually, I think "opinions about a balanced adventuring party" could be a legitimate reason for Rich to prefer a certain party structure. It's a less literary explanation, for people who like that, but I'm still deeply curious about how each of the parties slot into those opinions, if they exist.

I just think it helps him write, tbh. How many of us have played a bioware game and wanted more characters on the field just to include more viepoints? You honestly want 5 or 6 character types to really cover enough angles.

Rich seems the type to make sure that's all available for his use, even if it never finds its way to the forefront. Back when I was DMing, I certainly did it.

[BaronOfHell]

Durkon, then, by process of elimination, matches Kraggor, and, while this is the loosest connection, it still kinda works.

I thought you were comparing personalities?

My opinion:

Elan <-> Serini, both easy going, the soul of the party, everyone loves them.. maybe except the leader role.

Belkar <-> Kraagor, maybe I am reading too much into Kraagor being a barbarian, after all he seemed rather calm when he spoke with Serini.

Haley <-> Girard, they both used to only trust in family.

V <-> Dorukan, I am actually a bit uncertain, but I have the impression Dorukan may also be searching for some kind of ultimate power..

Durkon <-> Lirian, I feel this one is rather weak, but they both seemed calm headed

Roy <-> Soon, again I actually feel like these two are quite opposite.. Roy doesn't seem as unpopular as Soon does, but while Roy was infatuated with Miko, he did get unpopular with some members of the Stick.

I like the interpretation that the Scribble is what the Stick was or would become, had they not been forced to develop due to their competence being insufficient to overcome their character flaws.

[Tubercular Ox]

Roy <-> Soon, again I actually feel like these two are quite opposite.. Roy doesn't seem as unpopular as Soon does, but while Roy was infatuated with Miko, he did get unpopular with some members of the Stick.

In a way, Soon's participation in the Scribbles was driven by his infatuation with a woman. Admittedly, it was his wife and she was dead at the time, but this game is fun.

[woweedd]

I thought you were comparing personalities?

My opinion:

Elan <-> Serini, both easy going, the soul of the party, everyone loves them.. maybe except the leader role.

Belkar <-> Kraagor, maybe I am reading too much into Kraagor being a barbarian, after all he seemed rather calm when he spoke with Serini.

Haley <-> Girard, they both used to only trust in family.

V <-> Dorukan, I am actually a bit uncertain, but I have the impression Dorukan may also be searching for some kind of ultimate power..

Durkon <-> Lirian, I feel this one is rather weak, but they both seemed calm headed

Roy <-> Soon, again I actually feel like these two are quite opposite.. Roy doesn't seem as unpopular as Soon does, but while Roy was infatuated with Miko, he did get unpopular with some members of the Stick.

I like the interpretation that the Scribble is what the Stick was or would become, had they not been forced to develop due to their competence being insufficient to overcome their character flaws.

Eh, it's a lot of things i'm comparing. Like, I actually matched Belkar and Serini because of their opposite personalities when starting out, but, as they've changed, they've each become more like the other used to be IE Belkar has become more empathic and generally less bloodthirsty, while Serini has seemingly become far more cynical, apathetic, and disillusioned. But they do have personality similarities too IE their shared prosperity for getting along with non-humanoid creatures much better then their fellow man, his animal companions and her various monster friends. But I think you are getting my general thrust IE at least some, if not all of the Scribblers, show what a given Order member would have become without the years of character development we've seen them undergo.

[Bavarian itP]

In a way, Soon's participation in the Scribbles was driven by his infatuation with a woman. Admittedly, it was his wife and she was dead at the time, but this game is fun.

Also, Roy's original reason for the quest was the blood oath his dead father swore. So, a dead person was at the center of his motivation, like with Soon.