Finally watched Nightmare Before Christmas, and... uh..?

[TeChameleon]

So, as the title says, the other day I finally watched the Nightmare Before Christmas, mostly inspired by Voiceplay's (https://www.youtube.com/@Thevoiceplay) many marvelous covers of the songs from the movie.

I am left with questions.

(er, to get it out of the way first, I have nothing particularly against the movie, I am just confused by it. The songs were mostly great, the animation was an absolute feat, and the storyline was mostly cute and heartwarming. Anyways, on with the questions... also, forgive me, these are in very rough order because it's been a few days, it's just kind of been weighing on my mind for some reason)

1) Open with a song (rather catchy, too). Classic. Bit of dialogue, and... another song? Okay... Another handful of spoken lines and... yet another song? Getting their money's worth out of Danny Elfman, aren't they? I swear, it felt like there was more sung dialogue than spoken. I've watched actual musicals that had less singing. Felt like an odd choice.

2) Zero is adorable, although his origins remain unclear (was he alive at one point? Why does he have a grave, and what was he doing in it to start with when he apparently normally lives in Jack's house?)

3) This is a very minor quibble, but what exactly was reflecting the Christmas lights in Jack's eye sockets?

4) Okay, Jack digs the Christmastown vibe, so he... decides to take over the holiday? Wut. Also, is Halloweentown connected to the 'real' world the way Christmastown apparently is? How did Jack not know about the other holidays if there is a connection to the 'real' world?

5) So Sally's crushing on Jack hard, but they don't seem to know one another? Like, she's too shy to even initiate minor interactions with him.

6) So Jack's preparing Operation Christmaween, and he decides to have... three... children kidnap Santa? Children who are loyal to someone he doesn't want involved in things? Why did he send three small children? And how did they even find the holiday doors when he didn't tell them anything other than the description of Santa he gave in (yet another) song?

7) He-loves-me-he-loves-me-not flower randomly turns into a Christmas tree and bursts into flames while Sally's messing with it. Again, wut. Later on, she says she had a premonition, so... that's just a thing she does now, I guess? And Jack totally blows her off when she tries to warn him that she saw a vision of the future. Once again, they sure don't seem to know one another very well, although he apparently knows that she sews (logical enough, I guess, given the way we see her escape her tower, although I'm not sure where she got the key to open the window from. Also, speaking of Sally, she's stuffed with dried leaves. She should sound like a toddler tap-dancing on potato chips whenever she moves).

8) Easter Bunny gag was kind of funny, although it really feels like we're skipping some steps here.

9) Okay, Santa's grabbed, and... hauled off to Oogie Boogie? Who Jack didn't want involved, for reasons that remain unexplained. Oogie tortures Santa because...??? Who is this guy, anyways? What's his deal, why is he doing any of this? Cool song, though.

10) Sally makes a valiant effort to derail things, since Skeledeer apparently can't fly in foggy weather (why?). Pity she didn't read the Christmas books Jack has been scattering around, since the obvious happens with Zero, who remains adorable.

11) Jack's naturally making an absolute botch of Christmas. Not sure how he got the Skeledeer and sleigh through the holiday tree door, but whatever. And then he gets shot down. Apparently NORAD's tracking of Santa can be used for targetting as well.

12) Okay, mass chaos since Jack is presumed dead, Sally has made yet another valiant (but futile) attempt at fixing things (alright, I'll admit I laughed a little at the leg gag). Jack shows up to save the day, Oogie goes full Bond villain (again, why did he build any of this? Was he just that bored?). Memory gets a bit foggy here, but the kids just sort of... randomly switch sides for no adequately explored reason? And do some of the saving? Not sure, didn't make a lot of sense from what I remember. Once again, felt like we skipped a few steps. Oogie gets unraveled, and then brutally murdered by Santa, but it's okay since he's actually a bug? Wut. Santa proceeds to declare everyone in Halloweentown crazy except Sally, which is, quite frankly, entirely fair. Then he blasts off again to go save Christmas, displaying strength, speed and agility that should have let him dropkick those kids over the horizon when they tried to grab him.

13) Jack declares Sally to be his 'dearest friend' at one point during all this mayhem, which... what? They barely seemed to know each other up until this point in the movie.

14) The two then have a classic love-song-duet bit, which was great, although once again, we seem to have missed some steps.

*****

So... this movie had some absolutely iconic shots (Jack's curly-tipped singing hill that showed up on the posters was certainly used to memorable effect near the beginning and the end of the movie, nice bookends), the claymation was incredible, the songs were pretty easily up to Danny Elfman's high standards, the voice acting and singing ranged from competent to superb, but... the whole somehow felt less than the sum of its parts.

I was honestly left wondering where the rest of the movie was. The pacing was all over the place, and the constant, constant singing really didn't help with that, even with how good a lot of the music was. Oogie Boogie, stylish and ominous though he was, didn't seem to be doing his 'stuff' for any real reason other than 'movie needs bad guy'. And the romance subplot was so rushed I was left baffled. Went from 'okay, I guess he knows her name?' to 'eternal love' with... did they have more than five minutes of screen time together? Maybe ten at the outside? Also, Sally could really have used a W beyond just 'gets the boy at the end'. Poor girl really didn't have much effect on the plot.

So... yeah. I know this is a beloved classic, and I can see the outline of a classic here, but the meat of the matter felt a little lacking to me. Did I miss something, or did this just get ruthlessly edited down for runtime, or because the claymation had already eaten up vastly more time than they had budgeted, or what?

[Rynjin]

It's the type of movie that is meant to be enjoyed for the vibes, not ruthlessly over-analyzed lol. Most of your complaints are kind of weird nitpicks about the meta-cosmology of the setting, which...doesn't matter. They're Halloween creatures from Halloweentown who perform spooky acts and exist in the same canon as all of the other various holiday-specific mascots.

The entire movie is a scenario asking the question "wouldn't it be wacky if some boogedy monster who'd never heard of any other holiday found out about Christmas and thought it was AWESOME?" and the answer is "yes that would be pretty wacky I suppose".

Oogie tortures Santa because he's a horrible Halloween monster who wants to hurt people. Jack didn't want him involved...because he's the kind of guy who tortures people for fun lmao.

It's not that complicated, there's no deep lore to nitpick, it's just a cute movie about holiday mascots with polar (heh) opposite vibes clashing with each other.

[ArmyOfOptimists]

Basically what Rynjin said. I'd also add that the movie is a musical. That's why there's so much singing. I don't think it's a particularly odd choice to have a lot of musical numbers and singing in a musical.

[Peelee]

All listed questions cash be answered with "it's Tim Burton".

The entire movie is a scenario asking the question "wouldn't it be wacky if
Also this one, even though it's not a question. :smalltongue:

[LaZodiac]

All listed questions cash be answered with "it's Tim Burton".

Also this one, even though it's not a question. :smalltongue:

while it is true one you can diminish everything in the film down to "Tim Burton's productions have A Style", I feel like it does a disservice to the questions at hand.



1) Open with a song (rather catchy, too). Classic. Bit of dialogue, and... another song? Okay... Another handful of spoken lines and... yet another song? Getting their money's worth out of Danny Elfman, aren't they? I swear, it felt like there was more sung dialogue than spoken. I've watched actual musicals that had less singing. Felt like an odd choice.

2) Zero is adorable, although his origins remain unclear (was he alive at one point? Why does he have a grave, and what was he doing in it to start with when he apparently normally lives in Jack's house?)

3) This is a very minor quibble, but what exactly was reflecting the Christmas lights in Jack's eye sockets?

4) Okay, Jack digs the Christmastown vibe, so he... decides to take over the holiday? Wut. Also, is Halloweentown connected to the 'real' world the way Christmastown apparently is? How did Jack not know about the other holidays if there is a connection to the 'real' world?

5) So Sally's crushing on Jack hard, but they don't seem to know one another? Like, she's too shy to even initiate minor interactions with him.

6) So Jack's preparing Operation Christmaween, and he decides to have... three... children kidnap Santa? Children who are loyal to someone he doesn't want involved in things? Why did he send three small children? And how did they even find the holiday doors when he didn't tell them anything other than the description of Santa he gave in (yet another) song?

7) He-loves-me-he-loves-me-not flower randomly turns into a Christmas tree and bursts into flames while Sally's messing with it. Again, wut. Later on, she says she had a premonition, so... that's just a thing she does now, I guess? And Jack totally blows her off when she tries to warn him that she saw a vision of the future. Once again, they sure don't seem to know one another very well, although he apparently knows that she sews (logical enough, I guess, given the way we see her escape her tower, although I'm not sure where she got the key to open the window from. Also, speaking of Sally, she's stuffed with dried leaves. She should sound like a toddler tap-dancing on potato chips whenever she moves).

8) Easter Bunny gag was kind of funny, although it really feels like we're skipping some steps here.

9) Okay, Santa's grabbed, and... hauled off to Oogie Boogie? Who Jack didn't want involved, for reasons that remain unexplained. Oogie tortures Santa because...??? Who is this guy, anyways? What's his deal, why is he doing any of this? Cool song, though.

10) Sally makes a valiant effort to derail things, since Skeledeer apparently can't fly in foggy weather (why?). Pity she didn't read the Christmas books Jack has been scattering around, since the obvious happens with Zero, who remains adorable.

11) Jack's naturally making an absolute botch of Christmas. Not sure how he got the Skeledeer and sleigh through the holiday tree door, but whatever. And then he gets shot down. Apparently NORAD's tracking of Santa can be used for targetting as well.

12) Okay, mass chaos since Jack is presumed dead, Sally has made yet another valiant (but futile) attempt at fixing things (alright, I'll admit I laughed a little at the leg gag). Jack shows up to save the day, Oogie goes full Bond villain (again, why did he build any of this? Was he just that bored?). Memory gets a bit foggy here, but the kids just sort of... randomly switch sides for no adequately explored reason? And do some of the saving? Not sure, didn't make a lot of sense from what I remember. Once again, felt like we skipped a few steps. Oogie gets unraveled, and then brutally murdered by Santa, but it's okay since he's actually a bug? Wut. Santa proceeds to declare everyone in Halloweentown crazy except Sally, which is, quite frankly, entirely fair. Then he blasts off again to go save Christmas, displaying strength, speed and agility that should have let him dropkick those kids over the horizon when they tried to grab him.

13) Jack declares Sally to be his 'dearest friend' at one point during all this mayhem, which... what? They barely seemed to know each other up until this point in the movie.

14) The two then have a classic love-song-duet bit, which was great, although once again, we seem to have missed some steps.

*****

So... this movie had some absolutely iconic shots (Jack's curly-tipped singing hill that showed up on the posters was certainly used to memorable effect near the beginning and the end of the movie, nice bookends), the claymation was incredible, the songs were pretty easily up to Danny Elfman's high standards, the voice acting and singing ranged from competent to superb, but... the whole somehow felt less than the sum of its parts.

I was honestly left wondering where the rest of the movie was. The pacing was all over the place, and the constant, constant singing really didn't help with that, even with how good a lot of the music was. Oogie Boogie, stylish and ominous though he was, didn't seem to be doing his 'stuff' for any real reason other than 'movie needs bad guy'. And the romance subplot was so rushed I was left baffled. Went from 'okay, I guess he knows her name?' to 'eternal love' with... did they have more than five minutes of screen time together? Maybe ten at the outside? Also, Sally could really have used a W beyond just 'gets the boy at the end'. Poor girl really didn't have much effect on the plot.

So... yeah. I know this is a beloved classic, and I can see the outline of a classic here, but the meat of the matter felt a little lacking to me. Did I miss something, or did this just get ruthlessly edited down for runtime, or because the claymation had already eaten up vastly more time than they had budgeted, or what?

1: Some musicals are just Sing-Throughs, where there is basically no dialogue that isn't sung. Some have a few scattering of songs. Some over-weight where they put the songs. Like people, all musicals are different and This Is Okay, if sometimes weird.

2: Zero's a ghost dog that if I recall the original Tim Burton poem he's from, was a regular dog who died and became a ghost. Zero lives at Jack's house but is his own person and sometimes returns to his grave to rest.

3: Jack's got some shiny ass bones, the lights are reflecting off the inside of his skull.

4: Jack spends most of his time planning for the Big Spooks on Halloween, and everyone else is too focused on their own thing (the creature under your bed, the creature under the stairs, satan, etc.) to notice or care about things other than their specific holiday role. Jack's boredom made him want to take inspiration from Christmas... but because he is keyed towards being a spooky halloween man, it eventually mutates into taking over the holiday completely. Two of the songs actually touch on this, Town Meeting showing his trying to frame Christmas in a way his people would more understand, then the... forget the name, the one where he realizes HE has lost the plot and is trying to regain it- and ends up deciding "oh **** I could do Christmas, and improve it!!!"

5: Yup that's how one-sided crushes that shy people have tend to work.

6: Lock, Shock, and Barrel are Halloween Town's best trick-or-treaters, and while they are children they're also like, symbolic of children more than literal children. They act childish, but are really more like weird demonic imps- or in other words, they're like children who have fully given in to the halloween spirit. There's basically no in universe explanation for what this means so just assume they're goblins. Also it's implied he told them directions during the whispering part before "Kidnap Mr Sandy Claws". Like that was pretty clear.

7: This one feels a bit pedantic. I would say less Sally had a vision of the future, future-sight wise, and more... she's a smart cookie, and the Hallowmas stuff is weighing on her, and it occurred to her in that moment "oh **** something bad might happen". Ultimately this one is just, fine. Sally needs to confront Jack about the idea that maybe he's going too far, so she has a moment. It happens.

8: I don't get this one there's no, question here.

9: I mean he DID called Oogie-Boogie "no-account". Clearly he's not a great guy, and the kids' song about how they're definitely gonna betray Jack made it kinda clear why. Oogie-Boogie's just kind of a bad dude. There's no real explanation for what his deal is beyond the fact that like, a common phrase when scaring people is "oogie-boogie boo!". He's Halloween Town's resident jerk I guess, emblematic of people who want to like, seriously hurt people when scaring them instead of light-hearted scaring that Halloween should be. Like the line says "That's our job, but we're not mean."

10: I mean they can't navigate the fog because it's foggy. Zero doing the Rudolph thing is part of that. They COULD fly in the fog... but they'd be flying blind, so very unsafe.

11: The Christmas does goes to Christmas Town, it does not go to the human world. I imagine every holiday land has backchannels that lead to the mortal realm. Also yeah no you're kidding yourself if you don't think NORAD's got weapons on hot just in case.

12: The kids got a drop on him. Santa's powers only work with regards to Christmas actions, and they caught him flat-footed. Also if I recall the kids switch sides because Jack will beat the **** out of them if they don't, because Halloween Town is full of crazy people.

13: Jack and Sally interact a fair bit and while Sally herself is shy about it, I always figured it was clear they were friends. Jack's just very standoffish and depressed for much of the film, so it's hard to tell.

Anyway, that was Halloween, that was Halloween. Ultimately the only Tim Burton production that's any good, and not for lack of trying on Burton's part. He's just not a very good writer, and it is clear everyone around him lifted his work up. As Peelee said, you can easily explain all of this away with "Tim Burton's a hack" but I feel that's unfair to everyone else forced to work under him.

[Bavarian itP]

Jack calls Oogie-Boogie "no-account", and Santa tells him that he will "have to answer for this heineous act" which implies the existence of a higher power, some sort of holiday monster UN. Oogie-Boogie, being NOT a holiday monster, is obviously not a part of it, but they still could put pressure on him, which is the basis for Santa's threat. Or maybe they couldn't which is the reason Oogie-Boogie doesn't fear them at all? But Jack doesn't want him to be involved because he's not gonna play by the rules. But which I mean, he's gonna even more NOT play by the rules than Jack, who kidnaps Santa and overtakes another holiday town.This is, apparently, o.k. with the rules.

[GloatingSwine]

1: Some musicals are just Sing-Throughs, where there is basically no dialogue that isn't sung. Some have a few scattering of songs. Some over-weight where they put the songs. Like people, all musicals are different and This Is Okay, if sometimes weird.


I dunno. It's quite possible to do musicals wrong. Just ask Tom Hooper...

Nightmare Before Christmas is a pretty structurally standard musical really. The plot is spoken, the emotions are sung. That format works for a reason, it's an escalation of how demonstrative you're being with your manner of delivery (when speaking isn't enough, sing, when singing isn't enough, dance). Especially on film rather than the stage, where you have to project to hit the back of the house anyway and so there's less energy delta between the singing and the talking.

[Peelee]

while it is true one you can diminish everything in the film down to "Tim Burton's productions have A Style", I feel like it does a disservice to the questions at hand.
That's fair, i just enjoy the chance to swipe at Tim Burton for having a single well to go to for nearly everything he makes. And i say that liking Nightmare Before Christmas.

Nightmare Before Christmas is a pretty structurally standard musical really. The plot is spoken, the emotions are sung. That format works for a reason, it's an escalation of how demonstrative you're being with your manner of delivery (when speaking isn't enough, sing, when singing isn't enough, dance).
Agreed on all counts. For a great show of these principles firing on all xylinsers, one can always go to the best musical ever created (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vet6AHmq3_s) (link only goes to an example in the work, since it's nigh-impossible to rate the best pieces. The one immediately preceding this is only even used as an establishing shot and is still in the running for best song in the movie. Especially since the barely-even-a-background-sideplot fight that starts at the end of the song continues when we open the door back into the street).

[Rater202]

Regarding Oogie, if you're willing to take additional content that may or may not be canonical into account...

In Oogies Revenge, a videogame that serves as a sequel to the movie, it's established that Oogie isn't from Halloween Town.

He's the "King" of a now defunct holiday called "Bug Day" who came to Halloween Town after his on Holiday went kaput.

So yeah, he's an outside context problem. A foreign entity that operates on different rules much the same way that Halloween Town and Christmas Town run on different rules form each other.

Now, if you don't accept that... In his villain song he explcitly calles himself the boogie man.

[LaZodiac]

That's fair, i just enjoy the chance to swipe at Tim Burton for having a single well to go to for nearly everything he makes. And i say that liking Nightmare Before Christmas.

Agreed on all counts. For a great show of these principles firing on all xylinsers, one can always go to the best musical ever created (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vet6AHmq3_s) (link only goes to an example in the work, since it's nigh-impossible to rate the best pieces. The one immediately preceding this is only even used as an establishing shot and is still in the running for best song in the movie. Especially since the barely-even-a-background-sideplot fight that starts at the end of the song continues when we open the door back into the street).

100% true and agreed on every point. I love Nightmare Before Christmas! Tim Burton's best work is cleared by a decent Halloween episode of a children's cartoon show. The "duel release" of Frankenweenie alongside Para-Norman shows that Tim Burton is a D-Lister in every category imaginable without others to lift him up.

[Rater202]

Actually, you know what, to elaborate further...

As far back as the opening number they explain what Oogies deal is.

In this is Halloween there's the lines by the corpse family: "Tender Lovelings everywhere, life's no fund without a good scare. That's our job, but we're not mean, in this town of Halloween."

That sums up the idea behind most of Halloween town. They're supposed to be fun scary, not for real scary.

When the other monsters are having their "I am" moments, they're desiring their physical characteristics but never actually say or do anything threatening: "I am the thing hiding under your stairs, fingers like snakes and spiders in my hair" "I am the clown with the tear-away face, here in a flash and gone without a trace."

Then we get Oogie's line, delivered by his shadow projected on the moon "I am the shadow on the moon at night, filling your dreams to the brim with fright"

H's not describing his own physical characteristics. He's bragging about inflicting nightmares on people.

There's no malice with the others but with Oogie, there is.

Now take his explcit statement that he's the boogie man...

What is the Boogie man? A figure from stories for children, a shapeless thing that carries off and eats children who misbehave, a story created by parents who felt that terrorizing their children with treats of monsters and a violent death was the most effective way to get them to behave.

Even without the secondary materials describing him as explicitly foreign to Halloween town...

The rest of the residents are theme park monsters.

Oogie is a real one.

[Delicious Taffy]

Jack calls Oogie-Boogie "no-account", and Santa tells him that he will "have to answer for this heineous act" which implies the existence of a higher power, some sort of holiday monster UN.
I took that line as more of a direct personal threat, like Santa's saying he'll kick Oogie's burlap-covered ass if he doesn't chill out. There's never a line about "This goes against Our Laws" or whatever, and nobody else acts like there's any oversight in anything.

[Errorname]

Would a Nightmare Before Christmas that tried to explain everything in detail be a better movie? This is a whimsical fairytale musical, I don't need to know the exact mechanics of how the holiday towns work.


That's fair, i just enjoy the chance to swipe at Tim Burton for having a single well to go to for nearly everything he makes. And i say that liking Nightmare Before Christmas.

If you want to be a hater you can point out how Nightmare Before Christmas is really Henry Selick's movie more than Burton's.

[Peelee]

If you want to be a hater you can point out how Nightmare Before Christmas is really Henry Selick's movie more than Burton's.

That might explain why i like it despite generally disliking Tim Burton works.

[MCerberus]

The plot being a mess is a good observation because the plot was an actual afterthought. I'm going to +1 the read of just vibes, because this movie is goth Rocky Horror. Just a story about a guy who uses iconic folklore imagery of the Headless Horseman and Universal Dracula within 5 seconds of his intro that learns he wasn't self-actualizing because of loneliness.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I’m glad I’m not the only one who never saw this movie until recently.


Also, Sally could really have used a W beyond just 'gets the boy at the end'.

She did though; she got away from her father/creator like she’d been trying to do all movie (and he made himself a wife(?) to replace her).


Santa proceeds to declare everyone in Halloweentown crazy except Sally, which is, quite frankly, entirely fair.

😂 Agreed!



The rest of the residents are theme park monsters.

Oogie is a real one.

This was my understanding too.

[MCerberus]

She did though; she got away from her father/creator like she’d been trying to do all movie (and he made himself a wife(?) to replace her).


I believe there's a meme for this. It starts "My own clone, now neither of us"...

[Precure]

I think everyone in Halloween town know each other. It's a small place after all.

About other questions, the film's plot heavily re-edited several times. For a context, this supposed to be the real finale:

https://youtu.be/sAgtmPMjXKY?si=IQtOExswzpiZMwTK

[Errorname]

That's another factor here, Nightmare Before Christmas's production was basically that one gif of Gromit putting the tracks down directly in front of the train.

[Peelee]

That's another factor here, Nightmare Before Christmas's production was basically that one gif of Gromit putting the tracks down directly in front of the train.

https://media3.giphy.com/media/3oz8xtBx06mcZWoNJm/giphy.gif
Wallace and Gromit are international treasures.

[MCerberus]

https://media3.giphy.com/media/3oz8xtBx06mcZWoNJm/giphy.gif
Wallace and Gromit are international treasures.

Did you know they actually saved their brand of cheese because they made it popular?

wait I'm replying to a mod on subject err... err...
Also nightmare was a really interesting test-bed for loading in all the real fancy effects. Most famously I don't think anyone's done double-exposure effects in claymation better.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I can’t speak to the production, but the UV paint in Oogie Boogie’s lair was a nice touch.


https://media3.giphy.com/media/3oz8xtBx06mcZWoNJm/giphy.gif
Wallace and Gromit are international treasures.

That’s the back of the train though? :smallconfused:

[Errorname]

That’s the back of the train though? :smallconfused:

In the context of the movie the engine's been disconnected from the rest of the train at that point in the chase.

Although you can very much drive a train in reverse and have the engine push the rest of the train rather than pull it.

[Peelee]

That’s the back of the train though? :smallconfused:

The front fell off.

[Sholos]

Henry Selick is the true hero of Nightmare Before Christmas and you can't change my mind.

[Imbalance]

I'm no fan of musicals, but this is great to watch. I do enjoy many of the songs. Someday, I hope to try it sober to know for sure, but I've had an enlightening experience muting the film's audio while listening to the entirety of Appetite for Destruction. It's nothing like Dark Side of the Moon over The Wizard of Oz, but there is some fitting synchronization.

[TeChameleon]

Huh. Some interesting replies to help me understand what's going on with some of the odder bits. The claymation was definitely incredible in the movie, and Wallace and Gromit are, indeed, treasures.

And I 100% agree that the Blues Brothers is the greatest musical of all time (at least to date... not sure if you could ever get that many musical legends in a single movie again)

[Errorname]

The front fell off.

Was it towed outside the environment?

[Trixie_One]

And I 100% agree that the Blues Brothers is the greatest musical of all time (at least to date... not sure if you could ever get that many musical legends in a single movie again)

Film sure, if we're talking all musicals period then it's a two drum kit performance of Return to the Forbidden Planet.

Yes the proviso is important as you can easily tell if it's a cutprice performance with less talanted actors by the absence of that second drum kit, and you really need to two to make the lift off scene appropriately epic.

[snowblizz]

Agreed on all counts. For a great show of these principles firing on all xylinsers, one can always go to the best musical ever created (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vet6AHmq3_s) (link only goes to an example in the work, since it's nigh-impossible to rate the best pieces.

Meh, Blues Brothers 2000 was better.

[Grim Portent]

Was it towed outside the environment?

In the scene the engine goes onto the rest of the loop, which runs about the whole house in a crazy over the top fashion, Gromit and the back end of the train get switched onto an unfinished side piece and Gromit has to extend the track as he goes.

[Peelee]

Was it towed outside the environment?

Well, a wave hit it.

[Aedilred]

Ultimately the only Tim Burton production that's any good, and not for lack of trying on Burton's part. He's just not a very good writer, and it is clear everyone around him lifted his work up. As Peelee said, you can easily explain all of this away with "Tim Burton's a hack" but I feel that's unfair to everyone else forced to work under him.


Tim Burton is a D-Lister in every category imaginable
*spits out coffee*

Now, I will be the first to acknowledge that Burton became formulaic in the late 90s, over-reliant on certain performers, and directed at least one absolute turkey, but have you not seen Ed Wood? Mars Attacks!? Edward Scissorhands? Batman?

Burton isn't a writer, he's a director. That's not an excuse, that's the fact of it. He wrote the plot for a couple of his movies, but not the screenplay for any of them. Of all the things to criticise him for, the writing in his movies is one of the least fair, I think.


Meh, Blues Brothers 2000 was better.
Now this has got to be a joke.

[LaZodiac]

*spits out coffee*

Now, I will be the first to acknowledge that Burton became formulaic in the late 90s, over-reliant on certain performers, and directed at least one absolute turkey, but have you not seen Ed Wood? Mars Attacks!? Edward Scissorhands? Batman?

Burton isn't a writer, he's a director. That's not an excuse, that's the fact of it. He wrote the plot for a couple of his movies, but not the screenplay for any of them. Of all the things to criticise him for, the writing in his movies is one of the least fair, I think.


Now this has got to be a joke.

Edward Scissorhands is absolutely fine. Mars Attack is fantastic, I did forget Burton's responsible for that. His Batman is... alright, it's been awhile.

[Peelee]

*have you not seen.... Batman?
I'm with Silent Bob on this one.

[Tim Burton] said "Anybody who knows me knows I would never read a comic book." Which to me, explains Batman.

Also, Burton did Mars Attacks? Huh. I guess there are three Burton films I like. Two of them being pretty notably stylistically very un-Burton-like.

[Trixie_One]

Mars Attacks was rubbish, like Blues Brothers 2000 levels of rubbish. Will never get the popularity of that one.

His Batman films are great with the caveat that they only are if you don't mind the liberties taken. Which I don't as I like the result, but yeah there are quite a few. Then it's not like the other Batman films by other directors don't have their own issues with their interpretation of the character/setting, and usually have ended up being not as good. Batman Begins is my favourite of the Nolan films for example, but that film has a line that absolutely should never have come out of his mouth it is that bad.

The only times that Batman has been truly done right in a film was animated in Mask of the Phantasm.

[Rater202]

Batman Begins is my favourite of the Nolan films for example, but that film has a line that absolutely should never have come out of his mouth it is that bad

"I won't kill you but I don't have to save you"

*leaves the bad guy to die in a train crash that was arranged on Batman's behalf, making him directly responsible for the death.*

Also, we've got the bit in the Dark Knight movie where neither Alfred nor Bruce realizes that Alfred is the bad guy in the story he tells.

[Peelee]

Mars Attacks was rubbish, like Blues Brothers 2000 levels of rubbish. Will never get the popularity of that one.

His Batman films are great with the caveat that they only are if you don't mind the liberties taken. Which I don't as I like the result, but yeah there are quite a few. Then it's not like the other Batman films by other directors don't have their own issues with their interpretation of the character/setting, and usually have ended up being not as good. Batman Begins is my favourite of the Nolan films for example, but that film has a line that absolutely should never have come out of his mouth it is that bad.

The only times that Batman has been truly done right in a film was animated in Mask of the Phantasm.
Note to self, Trixie_One has never seen the other Batman TAS movies or Batman Beyond movie.

[Trixie_One]

Note to self, Trixie_One has never seen the other Batman TAS movies or Batman Beyond movie.

I'd argue those don't count for this kind of conversation as they didn't get a theatrical release. Mask however did. Ebert even raved about how good it is.

[Aedilred]

Wait, does the 1966 Batman movie mean nothing to you people?!

[Peelee]

I'd argue those don't count for this kind of conversation as they didn't get a theatrical release. Mask however did. Ebert even raved about how good it is.

Ya know, yeah, that's fair.

[TeChameleon]

Note to self, Trixie_One has never seen the other Batman TAS movies or Batman Beyond movie.
Just to chime in, Batman: Sub-Zero was arguably a weaker movie than Phantasm.

Although Return of the Joker was phenomenal, agreed.

[Peelee]

Just to chime in, Batman: Sub-Zero was arguably a weaker movie than Phantasm.

Although Return of the Joker was phenomenal, agreed.

The claim wasn't "best" but rather "Batman done right".

Which TAS and BB did even without the movie, but still.

[TeChameleon]

Eh, fair.

... wait, movies, plural? Having trouble... something about Batwoman? Was that one a Batman TAS movie?

[GloatingSwine]

Which TAS and BB did even without the movie, but still.

Eh, it's hard to credit the idea that BTAS would have been nearly as distinctive as it was had they not had the gothic excess of the Burton movies to follow on from.

[Peelee]

Eh, it's hard to credit the idea that BTAS would have been nearly as distinctive as it was had they not had the gothic excess of the Burton movies to follow on from.

First, i meant the TAS/BB movies there. Second, Batman already had gothic excess in the comics. Third, i would not call Burton's movies "gothic excess" so much as "Burton not actually understanding Batman or Batman villains and just making everything kooky and dark".

[Trafalgar]

This thread got me looking through Tim Burton's Filmography (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Burton_filmography). I was surprised to see that Tim Burton did not direct "Nightmare Before Christmas". Because I always thought that was the most Tim Burtony film ever.

I forgot that he directed "Pee Wee's Big Adventure". I will list that as my favorite Tim Burton film.

[Batcathat]

This thread got me looking through Tim Burton's Filmography (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Burton_filmography). I was surprised to see that Tim Burton did not direct "Nightmare Before Christmas". Because I always thought that was the most Tim Burtony film ever.

Yeah, I seem to remember that some people got upset about some movie (I don't remember which one) was advertised along the lines of "From the director of Nightmare Before Christmas" and they felt like it was a way of "tricking" people into thinking it was a Tim Burton movie. No idea if that was indeed the point or if people were just being paranoid, but I think that's when I learned that Burton didn't direct it.

[Sholos]

As I said earlier, Henry Sellick is the true hero of Nightmare Before Christmas. He's a great director.

[Wookieetank]

Yeah, I seem to remember that some people got upset about some movie (I don't remember which one) was advertised along the lines of "From the director of Nightmare Before Christmas" and they felt like it was a way of "tricking" people into thinking it was a Tim Burton movie. No idea if that was indeed the point or if people were just being paranoid, but I think that's when I learned that Burton didn't direct it.

That would be Coraline. And it is very Tim Burton adjacent in vibes, so I could see why they'd want to do that.

[The Patterner]

*spits out coffee*

Now, I will be the first to acknowledge that Burton became formulaic in the late 90s, over-reliant on certain performers, and directed at least one absolute turkey, but have you not seen Ed Wood? Mars Attacks!? Edward Scissorhands? Batman?

Burton isn't a writer, he's a director. That's not an excuse, that's the fact of it. He wrote the plot for a couple of his movies, but not the screenplay for any of them. Of all the things to criticise him for, the writing in his movies is one of the least fair, I think.



I'd like to add his other claymation movie to the list, Corpse bride. Sure, not as good as Nightmare before christmas but still pretty damn amusing.
Also the Wednesday series delivered.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I'd like to add his other claymation movie to the list, Corpse bride. Sure, not as good as Nightmare before christmas but still pretty damn amusing.
Also the Wednesday series delivered.

Can’t comment on Wednesday but concur that Corpse Bride was entertaining.

[Sholos]

That would be Coraline. And it is very Tim Burton adjacent in vibes, so I could see why they'd want to do that.

Also directed by Hemry Sellick. So when they said it was by the director of Nightmare Before Christmas, that was accurate.

[Wookieetank]

Also directed by Hemry Sellick. So when they said it was by the director of Nightmare Before Christmas, that was accurate.

Accurate, but misleading with how they presented it (at least on the movie posters:


From the director of:
The Nightmare Before Christmas

[Aedilred]

Accurate, but misleading with how they presented it (at least on the movie posters:


From the director of:
The Nightmare Before Christmas

How is that misleading? It is indeed by the director of The Nightmare Before Christmas and actually isn't entirely dissimilar in tone or style. And Tim Burton didn't direct, or write, Nightmare Before Christmas, so if people see that and think "oh, Tim Burton" that's kind of on them anyway.

Sometimes you do see something like "FROM THE producer OF [XXXX]" which is arguably a bit more misleading, parodied by Mitchell and Webb in their The Full Number of Overs That Are Scheduled to be Bowled That Day trailer as coming from "the catering crew of The Full Monty", "the location manager from Billy Elliot" and "featuring someone who was very nearly in Brassed Off".

The most prominent example of that I can remember was Layer Cake, advertised prominently by association with Lock Stock and Snatch since Matthew Vaughn produced those but directed Layer Cake, and I think Layer Cake was on some level widely assumed to be a Guy Ritchie movie. But even then, Layer Cake was still about London gangsters doing London gangstery things, featured some of the same actors, and was I think a much better film than Snatch at least, so I still find it hard to criticise too much.

[Peelee]

How is that misleading? It is indeed by the director of The Nightmare Before Christmas and actually isn't entirely dissimilar in tone or style. And Tim Burton didn't direct, or write, Nightmare Before Christmas, so if people see that and think "oh, Tim Burton" that's kind of on them anyway.

I would say it's intentionally misleading, designed to invoke Tim Burton. They could have said the director's name. They didn't. If someone says NBC and you think of only one name, that name ie Burton. As you rightly point out, it's not unfair, since anyone going in would have their expectations more or less met (compare to, say, the In Bruges trailer, which gives a horribly inaccurate impression of the film), so it's pretty harmless. But I do think it's misleading. Imagine a world where Burton directed both films - the studios would almsot certainly claim "from Tim Burton, director of The Nightmare Before Christmas" to directly trade on both his name and the tone/style similarities.

[Bohandas]

6) So Jack's preparing Operation Christmaween, and he decides to have... three... children kidnap Santa? Children who are loyal to someone he doesn't want involved in things? Why did he send three small children? And how did they even find the holiday doors when he didn't tell them anything other than the description of Santa he gave in (yet another) song?

I think they're not actually children, both because all the holiday creatures seem sort of ageless, but also because IIRC in one scene they briefly take off the masks and they look the same underneath them

[Grim Portent]

I think they're not actually children, both because all the holiday creatures seem sort of ageless, but also because IIRC in one scene they briefly take off the masks and they look the same underneath them

There are clearly other children in Halloween town, so I would say those three are members of this presumably unaging group of children, but they're also monsters like all the others. The other kids represent more or less average kids and correspond to some of the adults, they aren't all that unusual despite their supernatural nature and are part of an innocent love for Halloween that most of the town exemplify, but Lock, Shock and Barrel are the bad kids, representing holiday misdeeds and social outcasts. They're pranksters, deviants, thugs, Oogie Boogie's minions, used to skullduggery and wickedness, who take Halloween too far.

Next to Oogie Boogie himself they're probably the closest the town has to actual villains, everyone else with the possible exception of Jack is all bark no bite, harmless fun and scares. Obviously their efforts at christmas go too far, but it's not intentional. LS&B will happily hurt you in addition to the scares and Boogie will happily kill you.

[Bohandas]

Next to Oogie Boogie himself they're probably the closest the town has to actual villains, everyone else with the possible exception of Jack is all bark no bite, harmless fun and scares. Obviously their efforts at christmas go too far, but it's not intentional. LS&B will happily hurt you in addition to the scares and Boogie will happily kill you.

However, part of the all bark and no bite aspect is that most of them seem to be some degree of immortal, so that poisoned soup with a ton of deadly nightshade in it becomes a mere bit of harmless youthful rebellion


EDIT:
On a different note, has anyone else noticed that the mayor kind of looks like he might be a juggalo

https://i.insider.com/5f807bbcea74820019ca6302?format=jpeg&auto=webp
EDIT:
https://y.yarn.co/f2e63112-ead4-4d6d-b843-300891aecb74_screenshot.jpg