UA7 Survey Results Fireside Chat

[Psyren]

Okay, here we go.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYgSsn7b0f0


UA7 Summary:



"Reminder" that 70% is their acceptance threshold
Everything scored 70% or higher except Brawler Fighter and Base Barb. Brawler is out and will be replaced with a different subclass.
Archfey Warlock scored 89%
GOOlock scored 87%
Abjurer scored 78%
Diviner scored 81%
Next UA before year-end and will contain Barb, Monk and Druid
Some spells, items and feats will not be in the UA, so they'll be new to users of the book.



General comments on 2024:




The 50th anniversary stuff including the books will release later in 2024 going into 2025
More common magic items in core
More high-level threats
80 new monsters in the MM
Together, the new core will be close to 1000 pagers
Every subclass will have art
More spells will have art

[Skrum]

Have they said anything about magic item prices? This is such a colossal oversight.

[Psyren]

Have they said anything about magic item prices? This is such a colossal oversight.

Nothing beyond the fact that there will be more Common items in core. I imagine item pricing will be tied to the Bastion/Downtime stuff and therefore the feedback on that won't be ready for a while.

[GooeyChewie]

I’m not in a position to listen to the whole thing right now, but based on the summary here I’m pretty happy. Our group tested brawler Fighter and found it lacking, to the point where we’re happy to see it replaced. Everything else we were pretty happy with. Pretty much our group tracked with the results seen here, except I think we were a bit happier with base Barbarian than the overall results showed.

[Psyren]

What worries me most is Warlock. It sounds like it won't be coming back out, so we're going to be stuck with 2014 Pact Magic + Bandaid, and possibly also Cha-only as the casting stat.


I’m not in a position to listen to the whole thing right now, but based on the summary here I’m pretty happy. Our group tested brawler Fighter and found it lacking, to the point where we’re happy to see it replaced. Everything else we were pretty happy with. Pretty much our group tracked with the results seen here, except I think we were a bit happier with base Barbarian than the overall results showed.

His exact words on base Barbarian were "{dissatisfaction} with a few features." I take this to mean that people aren't happy with Barbarians at higher levels, the usual "Brutal Critical and more rage is all you have to look forward to after a while" problem.

[One Tin Soldier]

Have they said anything about magic item prices? This is such a colossal oversight.

Nothing about magic item prices in this video. But they do mention that they are revamping how treasure is awarded, and make brief reference to it being a part of monster entries in the Monster Manual. To me, that sounds like they are returning to the concept of a Treasure Type entry or something like it, rather than leaving it up to the GM to forget about award on a case-by-case basis.

I do seem to remember them mentioning in the past that they intend to rework magic item pricing and rarities, but I couldn’t tell you where or when.

[GooeyChewie]

His exact words on base Barbarian were "{dissatisfaction} with a few features." I take this to mean that people aren't happy with Barbarians at higher levels, the usual "Brutal Critical and more rage is all you have to look forward to after a while" problem.

Ah, that’s fair. And it makes sense we wouldn’t have picked it up on a one-shot playtest where we aren’t actively progressing the character during play.

[Joe the Rat]

Okay, here we go.

Thank you for taking the time to do this. I'm probably one of the few people that prefers to read something rather than watch a video on it, so from my view, you are making a noble sacrifice to spend the time to observe, and distil the mash into its essence.

Not particulary surprised by the findings. As a note, I am going to leave all the at-will Invocations on the table for my players - I don't think WotC quite appreciates the difference between "without spending a spell slot" and "always on" or "with a snap of your fingers."

[Psyren]

Thank you for taking the time to do this. I'm probably one of the few people that prefers to read something rather than watch a video on it, so from my view, you are making a noble sacrifice to spend the time to observe, and distil the mash into its essence.

I actually enjoy it! I'm a game design fiend so I really enjoy hearing/seeing how the sausage is made, especially for a game I enjoy as much as D&D. I also usually listen to Youtube vids at 2x speed even recreationally, it fits better with my ADHD brain somehow :smalltongue:

I'm also a didactic learner, so writing out the summaries helps things stick.

Some game design channels I follow regularly include Extra Credits, Game Makers' Toolkit, New Frame Plus and Noclip. I'm always on the lookout for more.



Not particulary surprised by the findings. As a note, I am going to leave all the at-will Invocations on the table for my players - I don't think WotC quite appreciates the difference between "without spending a spell slot" and "always on" or "with a snap of your fingers."

Remember too that 2024 Warlocks will be Ritual Casters. That's why they lost some invocations like Eldritch Sight (Detect Magic) or Beast Speech (Speak With Animals.) You can still pick up extra rituals with BoAS, Magic Initiate/LotFO and Ritual Caster too.

[crabwizard77]

Nothing beyond the fact that there will be more Common items in core. I imagine item pricing will be tied to the Bastion/Downtime stuff and therefore the feedback on that won't be ready for a while.

I really hope the common items will actually do stuff instead of just being fluff, essentially. That always disappointed me

[solidork]

Remember too that 2024 warlocks will be Ritual Casters. That's why they lost some invocations like Eldritch Sight (Detect Magic) or Beast Speech (Speak With Animals.) You can still pick up extra rituals with BoAS, Magic Initiate/LotFO and Ritual Caster too.

I know that is their justification for removing them, but there is a huge difference between casting those spells as an action and waiting ten minutes to cast it. Justifying everyone sitting around for ten minutes doing nothing can be hard to justify, to say nothing of situations where it's straight up impossible.

On a sliding scale of "how important is casting thins", having it only as a ritual cuts out the low and top end of uses. All of the whimsical uses where you're just indulging some curiosity aren't really viable because it isn't worth the time to cast. In a critical situation where you need it immediately you effectively don't have it.

[Psyren]

I know that is their justification for removing them, but there is a huge difference between casting those spells as an action and waiting ten minutes to cast it. Justifying everyone sitting around for ten minutes doing nothing can be hard to justify, to say nothing of situations where it's straight up impossible.

On a sliding scale of "how important is casting thins", having it only as a ritual cuts out the low and top end of uses. All of the whimsical uses where you're just indulging some curiosity aren't really viable because it isn't worth the time to cast. In a critical situation where you need it immediately you effectively don't have it.

It's not only the ritual though; LotFO -> Magic Initiate gets you both the ritual, and a 1/day speedy cast if you need it (and two extra cantrips besides), all for the same invocation cost as Eldritch Sight on its own would have been. I definitely consider that an improvement overall.

[Zevox]

What worries me most is Warlock. It sounds like it won't be coming back out, so we're going to be stuck with 2014 Pact Magic + Bandaid, and possibly also Cha-only as the casting stat.
The former of those is a concern for me as well (I'm happy with Charisma-only casting). If they really move forward with the Warlock with no further changes there, they have not fixed the problem, and have barely pretended to attempt to address.

More generally though, I guess I'm happy to hear the Brawler is getting replaced. I liked the idea of an improvised weapon specialist more than I expected to, but dislike the overlap with the Monk in unarmed combat, and felt it was mechanically lackluster overall. Personal hopes for options to replace it would be Rune Knight or Psychic Warrior.

I'll be curious what exactly changes with the Barbarian in the next UA. My biggest criticisms of it were the World Tree subclass not fitting with all settings (since even official ones often don't have a World Tree) and the skills they can use strength with while raging still not all making sense. I get the feeling the latter was going to be ignored though, since they ignored it after the first UA where that appeared, and the solution to the former would be to release the subclass in an expansion instead of the PHB, but it seems that's not happening.

[Dr.Samurai]

I do hope they revisit higher barbarian levels. I think Brutal Critical should stay; critical hits in 5E are a joke anything to elevate them would be nice. But it's not worth an entire level's features.

Indomitable Might should return to lower levels though. As is it's way too high of a level.

[Psyren]

I do hope they revisit higher barbarian levels. I think Brutal Critical should stay; critical hits in 5E are a joke anything to elevate them would be nice. But it's not worth an entire level's features.

Yeah they need something alongside Brutal Critical. I suggested some kind of Spell Sunder multiple times now.



More generally though, I guess I'm happy to hear the Brawler is getting replaced. I liked the idea of an improvised weapon specialist more than I expected to, but dislike the overlap with the Monk in unarmed combat, and felt it was mechanically lackluster overall. Personal hopes for options to replace it would be Rune Knight or Psychic Warrior.

Thinking about it, it's almost guaranteed to be Psi Warrior; Rune Knight strikes me as too complex for core, everything else needs a lot of work, and they don't have time left for another attempt at a brand new subclass.

I wouldn't say no to Arcane Archer though, if they're willing to put the time in to try fixing it.


I'll be curious what exactly changes with the Barbarian in the next UA. My biggest criticisms of it were the World Tree subclass not fitting with all settings (since even official ones often don't have a World Tree) and the skills they can use strength with while raging still not all making sense. I get the feeling the latter was going to be ignored though, since they ignored it after the first UA where that appeared, and the solution to the former would be to release the subclass in an expansion instead of the PHB, but it seems that's not happening.

Amusingly, Todd seemed almost surprised that World Tree passed :smallbiggrin: But they seem to be moving ahead with it.

[GooeyChewie]

Amusingly, Todd seemed almost surprised that World Tree passed :smallbiggrin: But they seem to be moving ahead with it.

Honestly, our group just ignored the “world tree” aspects of it. Our Barbarian made George Liftington, using a great axe made from a cherry tree.

[Zevox]

Thinking about it, it's almost guaranteed to be Psi Warrior; Rune Knight strikes me as too complex for core, everything else needs a lot of work, and they don't have time left for another attempt at a brand new subclass.

I wouldn't say no to Arcane Archer though, if they're willing to put the time in to try fixing it.
I don't see how Rune Knight is "too complex for core" personally, but eh, if it meant Psychic Warrior being in core, I wouldn't complain. Probably the closest I could ever see to Psionics being in the PHB.

Though I wouldn't mind an improved Arcane Archer either. I've always liked the class concept there, but the implementation was certainly lacking.

[Kane0]

Thank you for taking the time to do this. I'm probably one of the few people that prefers to read something rather than watch a video on it.

Not the only one!

[P. G. Macer]

Not the only one!

Definitely not the only one. I strongly dislike the recent trend of making all important announcements video-based, both in and outside of D&D.

[Envyus]

Have they said anything about magic item prices? This is such a colossal oversight.

Much earlier they said they would have pricing in the DMG

[DracoKnight]

What worries me most is Warlock. It sounds like it won't be coming back out, so we're going to be stuck with 2014 Pact Magic

Stuck with?

Some of us like the playstyle the class offers. If you want a long rest caster, play one.

[Psyren]

Stuck with?

Some of us like the playstyle the class offers. If you want a long rest caster, play one.

I play every class. But what I meant was that the core problems Crawford laid out with the Warlock in his UA5 video have not been fixed at all by the UA7 version. Magical Cunning in particular is a bandaid at best.

[Kane0]

Magical Cunning in particular is a bandaid at best.

Same story with monk's heightened metabolism. It's simply not addressing the problems with resting vs encounters.

[Atranen]

Definitely not the only one. I strongly dislike the recent trend of making all important announcements video-based, both in and outside of D&D.

Fourthed. Takes longer to get through, hard to skim and reference, no increase in clarity.

[Unoriginal]

Psi Warrior ending up in the core becsuse they need one more Fighter subclass and everything else demands too much work is not something I tjink will happen, but it would be hilarious if it does.

Coincidentally Core Jedi.

[Psyren]

Same story with monk's heightened metabolism. It's simply not addressing the problems with resting vs encounters.

At least we're getting another bite of that particular apple before year-end.


Psi Warrior ending up in the core becsuse they need one more Fighter subclass and everything else demands too much work is not something I tjink will happen, but it would be hilarious if it does.

Coincidentally Core Jedi.

Well... nuGOOlock and Aberrant Mind Sorcerer show they're not above psionic theming in core. I definitely think it's going to be either that or AA.

[Dr.Samurai]

Currently playing a level 13 Rune Knight and it is definitely a lot of abilities. Mind you, this is coming from a perennial barbarian who likes simpler classes. But there's a lot of bonus action/reaction activations that get in the way of each other on Rune Knight.

I'm not particularly fond of the Psychic Warrior. Wouldn't mind seeing another take on the Arcane Archer.

[Theodoxus]

Fourthed. Takes longer to get through, hard to skim and reference, no increase in clarity.

100% - definitely appreciate the assist, Psyren!

However, the more I look over the UAs and feedback... well, I think I finally grok when old folks yell at their grandkids about "what is this garbage monkey noise you call music!"

I have zero interest in anything they've done. The interesting bits WotC put forth didn't make the cut, so they're gone... It's like the voting populace doesn't want to iterate anything new... so, my unsolicited (and vehemently ignored) advice to Hasbro is to just stop. If they really need something for the 50th anniversary, maybe just redo all the editions with new art, graphics and layout that keeps the feel, but updates it. Seriously, the art from the 70s and early 80s is HORRID, but classic. I'd love to see a 2024 take on it. Plus better bindings, higher quality paper, et al.

But it's waaay too late for that idea, so just stop.

[Aimeryan]

I play every class. But what I meant was that the core problems Crawford laid out with the Warlock in his UA5 video have not been fixed at all by the UA7 version. Magical Cunning in particular is a bandaid at best.

If I recall, there were two points of contention:


Short Rest dependancy in a Long Rest party.
Low level Spell Slots to play around with.


The first is so easily solvable it makes me want to bang my head in frustration. Just make it a feature that can be used twice per Long Rest, with a minute to establish the connection to the Patron. Done. Don't need to throw the bathtub out with the baby. Call it Entreat Patron or something.

Now, I'm actually in favour of Short Rests as the standard for resource recovery, with Long Rests Sleep being required every reasonable period of time to not gain levels of Exhaustion. However, that is something that only tangentially relates to Pact Magic.

The second is quite easily solved too, although balancing is a little more involved. Giving Warlocks a few low level Spell Slots without losing anything in turn would obviously push for power creep among the class (although, possibly not the game as a whole). An invocation for a few Level 1 Spell Slots, and another for a couple Level 2 Spell Slots per Long Rest would likely work. Just level requirement them as appropriate. Could possibly have them be one per Long Rest and allow the aforementioned Entreat Patron feature to recover them too. Whatever works best.

Do note, they said testing is done, not that they wont change anything from UA7. In fact, they explicitly mentioned that there WILL be differences from the UAs in the new PHB. So, its entirely possible what I mentioned above is exactly what they will do in the new PHB - thus in fact solving these two points.

[Psyren]

If I recall, there were two points of contention:


Short Rest dependancy in a Long Rest party.
Low level Spell Slots to play around with.


Those were the primary two that Crawford focused on but there are other points of contention beyond these, such as multiclassing, conversion interactions (e.g. rest casting, coffeelock/flexible casting, or recharging items with slots), and anything that modifies short rest math like Catnap. In short, Pact Magic doesn't interact well with the rest of the system.



The first is so easily solvable it makes me want to bang my head in frustration. Just make it a feature that can be used twice per Long Rest, with a minute to establish the connection to the Patron. Done. Don't need to throw the bathtub out with the baby. Call it Entreat Patron or something.

Most Warlock spells are balanced around the slot recovery time matching or exceeding their duration. Dropping the recovery time to a minute throws that out of whack.



The second is quite easily solved too, although balancing is a little more involved. Giving Warlocks a few low level Spell Slots without losing anything in turn would obviously push for power creep among the class (although, possibly not the game as a whole). An invocation for a few Level 1 Spell Slots, and another for a couple Level 2 Spell Slots per Long Rest would likely work. Just level requirement them as appropriate. Could possibly have them be one per Long Rest and allow the aforementioned Entreat Patron feature to recover them too. Whatever works best.

I'll take rando naked slots if there's no better option but that still divorces them from every other caster when it comes to things like multiclassing and upcasting. I'd prefer an actual spellcasting progression alongside PM.


Do note, they said testing is done, not that they wont change anything from UA7. In fact, they explicitly mentioned that there WILL be differences from the UAs in the new PHB. So, its entirely possible what I mentioned above is exactly what they will do in the new PHB - thus in fact solving these two points.

This is indeed my last hope, though again I would prefer 1/3 casting even if it means some minor nerfs like fewer invocations and slower pact slot progression (quantity, not level).

[AHF]

Most Warlock spells are balanced around the slot recovery time matching or exceeding their duration. Dropping the recovery time to a minute throws that out of whack.


You can’t recover a spell slot for a spell that is active. You either end the spell or come back from rest one slot short. Fixes that issue pretty easily.

[Warlock'sFriend]

I just want Magical Cunning to become the same as 5e Eldritch Master, Eldritch Master to get unlimited uses at level 20, and invocations that are added which allow the 1/LR casting of spells that are good for combat.

With all that, I would be ecstatic.

[Aimeryan]

Most Warlock spells are balanced around the slot recovery time matching or exceeding their duration. Dropping the recovery time to a minute throws that out of whack.

The Spell Slots would essentially just be Long Rest equivalent, like a Wizards, with the difference being you don't get them all at once. If a player wants to use a Spell Slot for a Spell with a duration and then grab their next Spell Slot allotment (potentially wasting the other if not used) then it really is no different to a Wizard doing that with them getting all their Spell Slots at once.

The 'advantage' with the Warlock is that you are able to grab an extra high level Spell Slot for one encounter - at the cost of having less spread over future encounters. This is why they don't get them all at once in the first place, albeit this is a much weaker version of that. However, there are some issues with this:

It doesn't really work for 1st, 2nd, or 3rd Spell Slots since Wizards and the like get so many of those so quickly that it doesn't act as a Warlock advantage.
This only matters for 10min or 1hour spells, since 1min or less obviously doesn't come into it and 8hour or more can be done currently (so wouldn't be power creep).
Concentration spells also don't come into this since you can't use more than one at a time - i.e., you could cast such a spell after the Spell Slot recovery rather than before and be no worse off on that spell (technically, you would be better off by a minute if you do it after).


When you put all this into play, it actually only works out that one spell matches the parameters: the 4th Level Spell Charm Monster. This spell fails the perceived power grab though by being an in-combat spell with no carry-over potential - the monster is still unfriendly to everyone else in the party and will happily bash at them rather than any future enemies of yours (which the spell doesn't do in any case). Eh, I guess technically if its a solo adventure you might be able to persuade it to help you.

[diplomancer]

The Spell Slots would essentially just be Long Rest equivalent, like a Wizards, with the difference being you don't get them all at once. If a player wants to use a Spell Slot for a Spell with a duration and then grab their next Spell Slot allotment (potentially wasting the other if not used) then it really is no different to a Wizard doing that with them getting all their Spell Slots at once.

The 'advantage' with the Warlock is that you are able to grab an extra high level Spell Slot for one encounter - at the cost of having less spread over future encounters. This is why they don't get them all at once in the first place, albeit this is a much weaker version of that. However, there are some issues with this:

It doesn't really work for 1st, 2nd, or 3rd Spell Slots since Wizards and the like get so many of those so quickly that it doesn't act as a Warlock advantage.
This only matters for 10min or 1hour spells, since 1min or less obviously doesn't come into it and 8hour or more can be done currently (so wouldn't be power creep).
Concentration spells also don't come into this since you can't use more than one at a time - i.e., you could cast such a spell after the Spell Slot recovery rather than before and be no worse off on that spell (technically, you would be better off by a minute if you do it after).


When you put all this into play, it actually only works out that one spell matches the parameters: the 4th Level Spell Charm Monster. This spell fails the perceived power grab though by being an in-combat spell with no carry-over potential - the monster is still unfriendly to everyone else in the party and will happily bash at them rather than any future enemies of yours (which the spell doesn't do in any case). Eh, I guess technically if its a solo adventure you might be able to persuade it to help you.

A pretty obvious one is Armor of Agathys. Yes, it's first level, but it upcasts very well. And keeping concentration on a Summon while having two more slots to use on non-concentration spells is a notable boost in power. That said, I don't think it's a big deal, as long as the total number of slots/day is limited. It's giving Warlocks more Nova Power to use when needed, which is an area where they struggle compared to other casters.

[Aimeryan]

A pretty obvious one is Armor of Agathys. Yes, it's first level, but it upcasts very well. And keeping concentration on a Summon while having two more slots to use on non-concentration spells is a notable boost in power. That said, I don't think it's a big deal, as long as the total number of slots/day is limited. It's giving Warlocks more Nova Power to use when needed, which is an area where they struggle compared to other casters.

True, did not consider upcasting spells that scale well. Yeah, its not even a massive upgrade to cast non-concentration spells in combat for a Warlock since AREB is such a good baseline for them. Consider Level 4 Blight deals 40 average damage on a fail, 20 on a save, for a Constitution Saving Throw (i.e., bad). Consider that two AREB hits would make for 21 average damage, ignoring crit potential - with added ability to push the enemy back significantly. Yeah, you could get lucky with Blight, but otherwise the average damage difference isn't that significant, and isn't blowing martials out the water in any case.

Mostly as a Warlock you want to concentrate on something powerful and save Spell Slots for other encounters. I definitely think it would be a issue if they could Fireball at character level 5 six times in a row on a Boss encounter, but two times + a concentration spell (if they have the Spell Slots still available before the encounter) isn't going to be too problematic.

[crayonshinchuck]

True, did not consider upcasting spells that scale well. Yeah, its not even a massive upgrade to cast non-concentration spells in combat for a Warlock since AREB is such a good baseline for them. Consider Level 4 Blight deals 40 average damage on a fail, 20 on a save, for a Constitution Saving Throw (i.e., bad). Consider that two AREB hits would make for 21 average damage, ignoring crit potential. Yeah, you could get lucky with Blight, but otherwise the average damage difference isn't that significant, and isn't blowing martials out the water.

Mostly as a Warlock you want to concentrate on something powerful and save Spell Slots for other encounters. I definitely think it would be a issue if they could Fireball at character level 5 six times in a row on a Boss encounter, but two times + a concentration spell (if they have the Spell Slots still available before the encounter) isn't going to be too problematic.

What if the recovery mechanic you proposed would require concentration, meaning that the Warlock would not be able to maintain any long-duration concentration spells if they want to recover their pact slots? I realize that upcasting Hex in particular is a spell that is based around maintaining concentration on it through a short rest, but that could certainly be modified (or provided as an exception).

[ZRN]

Well... nuGOOlock and Aberrant Mind Sorcerer show they're not above psionic theming in core. I definitely think it's going to be either that or AA.

I doubt it's be any of the pre-Tasha's subclasses because most of them would need a bit of tweaking to fit well with the other revised subclasses - I don't think you could satisfyingly just plop in Samurai or Arcane Archer as they were printed. (Maybe Cavalier?) And I don't think they're putting any more time into developing and testing stuff that needs more than a quick polish before reprinting.

I'd say Rune Knight and Psi Warrior are the frontrunners. Personally I'd pick RK as a better option just because PW mechanically feels a lot like Battlemaster to me, and the other fighter subclasses are distinguished by each having very different core mechanics.

[Aimeryan]

What if the recovery mechanic you proposed would require concentration, meaning that the Warlock would not be able to maintain any long-duration concentration spells if they want to recover their pact slots? I realize that upcasting Hex in particular is a spell that is based around maintaining concentration on it through a short rest, but that could certainly be modified (or provided as an exception).

Hex is a pretty bad spell to Concentrate on in any case, unless you really are just fighting single opponent slow meat tanks over and over. It would stop the Warlock from tiding over a Summon Aberration, so they have to spend the Spell Slot again. Honestly though, I think the main reason to stop nova is the big six slots all at once - if a Concentration hour long spell gets through I don't think this is really problematic.