Swords Bard - 18 Dex/12 con vs 16 dex/14 con

[Greenfeuer]

What is more important, getting 18 in dex or 14 in con, as a swords bard?

Got the choice of starting with 18 dex and 12 con, or 16 dex and 14 con.

I plan to skirmish alot with throwing weapons/duel wield and such + support and spells.

Things like kinetic-jaunt and such too, for darting in and out of combat. - I am going to multiclass rogue aswell. 🙂

The bard character has a very "Darkest dungeon" Jester feel to it, and kinda going for that "vibe" for how he fights/supports. 🃏

Most in the party is rather tanky, Bloodhunter, Cleric, BaB/ranger, Fighter/Paladin, Bladesong wizard (very tanky dwarf version) and then me, the Bard/Rogue.

By skirmish I mean, dart from front to backline, duel wield, throw daggers and stab, and stay on the move. Aswell using tons of control/dps spells, and support alot aswell, I support alot, but I do dps well too!

I fill in the bard/rogue archtype, skill monkey support/dps. - I dart in and out of harmsway and deliver harm and mayhem, then get out of dodge really. - I have tons of uility/face abitlies too, so very versitaile in my playstyle.

My fear is being nuked by save rolls, that ignore AC, and go down/die out right. Yet, Dex gives so much to my concept, yet I fear if 12 con is enough or not. I fear if 16 dex is enough too, since I am going with light armor + if I have enough AC with only 16 dex.

Medium armor is not what I am gunning for, style wise, unless it comes up in a very benefital way/I get a magic item. But I see my character more as the acrobatic jester wild card, that darts around and rely on speed and aswell trickery and spells, aswell sword/knife play to deal out death 🎯

Hope this makes good sense 🎃

[Arkhios]

As a Swords Bard you're in melee most of the time, and therefore more likely to be a subject of attacks than those at range.

So, I'd say Con is more important, as a Bard isn't exactly made of Hit Points. As a swords bard you do have access to medium armor, which is a good substitute for a good AC.

Dex 18 and (non-magical) light armor would be at most 16 while you can reasonably reach 17 with a (non-magical) half-plate, 18 if you invest in Medium Armor Master feat.

Due to bounded accuracy, the difference between 16 and 18 in regards To Hit bonus is also very small. In general AC > Hp, but the more Hp you have, the better.


Edit: also had I just read all of your post I would've realized this before I replied: In your particular case, I suppose higher Dex might be better for what you're aiming for.

[Unoriginal]

What is more important, getting 18 in dex or 14 in con, as a swords bard?

Got the choice of starting with 18 dex and 12 con, or 16 dex and 14 con.

I plan to skirmish alot with throwing weapons/duel wield and such + support and spells.

Things like kinetic-jaunt and such too, for darting in and out of combat. - I am going to multiclass rogue aswell. 🙂

The bard character has a very "Darkest dungeon" Jester feel to it, and kinda going for that "vibe" for how he fights/supports. 🃏

Most in the party is rather tanky, Bloodhunter, Cleric, BaB/ranger, Fighter/Paladin, Bladesong wizard (very tanky dwarf version) and then me, the Bard/Rogue.

By skirmish I mean, dart from front to backline, duel wield, throw daggers and stab, and stay on the move. Aswell using tons of control/dps spells, and support alot aswell, I support alot, but I do dps well too!

I fill in the bard/rogue archtype, skill monkey support/dps. - I dart in and out of harmsway and deliver harm and mayhem, then get out of dodge really. - I have tons of uility/face abitlies too, so very versitaile in my playstyle.

My fear is being nuked by save rolls, that ignore AC, and go down/die out right. Yet, Dex gives so much to my concept, yet I fear if 12 con is enough or not. I fear if 16 dex is enough too, since I am going with light armor + if I have enough AC with only 16 dex.

Medium armor is not what I am gunning for, style wise, unless it comes up in a very benefital way/I get a magic item. But I see my character more as the acrobatic jester wild card, that darts around and rely on speed and aswell trickery and spells, aswell sword/knife play to deal out death 🎯

Hope this makes good sense 🎃

As a Sword Bard, DEX and CHA are your priorities, not CON.

DEX 16 is enough for a PC in the lvl 1-6 range, but it's not great either, while DEX 18 is great. Meanwhile you won't have a great HP ammount even if you go CON 14.

Keep in mind, though, even if you have 20 in DEX your AC won't be that great.

In any cases, I wouldn't worry about saves too much for the moment.

[RogueJK]

16/14 is just fine for a Tier 1 PC, especially a ranged/skirmisher build like this Rogue/Bard. Then plan on getting 18 DEX at your Level 4 ASI. Very few Tier 1 PCs will have an 18 DEX, which means that any PC with only light armor is expected to only have a 14-15ish AC. That's normal at these early levels on a Rogue, Bard, or (non-Hexblade) Warlock.

Keep in mind that CON isn't just for HP and things like poison/disease saves... It also affects Concentration, and a Bard has a lot of useful Concentration spells.


As a Swords Bard you're in melee most of the time

While their fighting styles and medium armor/scimitar proficiency would seem to indicate that, there's nothing about a Swords Bard's primary abilities that require it to be in melee. Blade Flourishes work just fine with ranged/thrown weapons.

And with a party that consists of primarily tanky melee types, there's even less reason to get into melee.

The OP's plan of hanging back with thrown daggers is a good option, still allowing you to take advantage of the fighting style while fighting at range.


But I actually wouldn't try to dual wield thrown daggers, unless you have a lenient DM, or are using the Playtest version of dual wielding...

Your Bonus Action will frequently be taken up with things like Cunning Action, Steady Aim, Healing Word, Bardic Inspiration, etc. And RAW, until/unless you get a returning weapon (or spend a feat on Thrown Weapon Fighting Style), you won't be able to draw two daggers in a turn. So you'd only be able to TWF with thrown daggers twice in each combat, and only if you start with weapons in hand, unless you have a lenient DM:

Start combat with 2 daggers in hand
Turn 1: Action throw 1st, Bonus Action throw 2nd, Free Object Interaction draw 1 dagger
Turn 2: Action throw 1st, Free Object Interaction draw 1 dagger, Bonus Action throw 2nd (unarmed for remainder of round, so no OAs)
Turn 3+: Free Object Interaction draw 1 dagger, Action throw 1st (unarmed for remainder of round, so no OAs)

Therefore, you might ask your DM if they'll allow you to sub in the Thrown Weapon Fighting Style in place of the normal Dueling/TWF, or at least handwave the drawing of two daggers per turn while TWF. Otherwise, take Dueling, and just plan to stab/throw one dagger per turn with Sneak Attack and +2 damage, and then reserve your Bonus Action for all the other useful things you can do with it.

[Psyren]

I'd aim for the 14 con; in addition to being in melee a lot, it sounds like a big part of your skirmishing strategy relies on maintaining concentration. You should also grab War Caster (preferably the UA half-feat version if allowed) as soon as you can.

One alternative that will let you focus on Cha is a Hexblade dip. I know, it gets a bad rap due to its ubiquity, but it really is that good for a Cha-based melee build.

[Unoriginal]

Are you talking at lvl 1 or at lvl 4?

[da newt]

Maybe dip one level of fighter for proff w/ shields, defensive FS, and 2nd wind? It's a pretty cheap way to add +3 AC and some 'healing'

[Greenfeuer]

Are you talking at lvl 1 or at lvl 4?

We are at lvl 5, but my GM allowed me to adjust my stats abit, my level 4 feat went to something else for theme/fluff.

My plan is to go 5-6 levels in bard, then rogue for a while, got 1 lvl of rogue for flabour/style atm 😊

[Greenfeuer]

Maybe dip one level of fighter for proff w/ shields, defensive FS, and 2nd wind? It's a pretty cheap way to add +3 AC and some 'healing'

Good advice! However I am going for the Darkest Dungeon Jester kinda vibe. Lightly armored, duelwield/knife juggling, daring acrobatics and jester/fool like stuff ^^

So I doubt I will take a level of fighter, or shield for that matter. - The spell shield could be useful! But my plan is to try get uncanny dodge and evasion from rogue in time 😁

I might pick up healing word, even tho my plan wasn't, but I could see how it could fit slighty into the theme aswell 😁

[Bobthewizard]

If I were to mix rogue and swords bard, I'd probably go straight swashbuckler or soulknife rogue until I got everything I wanted and then switch to bard. In that case 18 Dex and 12 Con would be my choice.

Or you could go to 6 bard, then take all your rogue levels, then back to bard, but this is more of a caster first, skirmisher second. Bard's casting is excellent, while a swords bard's skirmishing is mediocre at best. If you are mostly bard at this point, I'd go 16 Dex, 14 Con and wear breast plate, which doesn't interfere with movement or stealth and can be worn under a jester's outfit.

What is your charisma? If you are more bard than rogue, that is your primary stat, not Dex or Con.

[Greenfeuer]

If I were to mix rogue and swords bard, I'd probably go straight swashbuckler or soulknife rogue until I got everything I wanted and then switch to bard. In that case 18 Dex and 12 Con would be my choice.

Or you could go to 6 bard, then take all your rogue levels, then back to bard, but this is more of a caster first, skirmisher second. Bard's casting is excellent, while a swords bard's skirmishing is mediocre at best. If you are mostly bard at this point, I'd go 16 Dex, 14 Con and wear breast plate, which doesn't interfere with movement or stealth and can be worn under a jester's outfit.

What is your charisma? If you are more bard than rogue, that is your primary stat, not Dex or Con.

Some solid advice!

I got a level of rogue atm, and 4 level of bard. My plan is to get to level 5-6 as bard, then go rogue for a while.

My current jester outfit is a semi magic item, that make vicious mockery a 1d6 instead of d4. - It can be modded in time, but current one only works with light armor.

My plan is to go Swashbuckler probably, Assassin or Phantom has been consindered too.

My character is primarly bard, with abit of rogue, but I may consinder going rogue at level 5, but, I think 6 will be the best time tho. Not sure how many levels of rogue yet tho :)

My goals are uncanny dodge and evasion over time, for survival + it fits well!

[RogueJK]

Soulknife Rogue 3/Swords Bard X is actually a really solid "knife throwing" build. You get a better ranged throwing weapon (60' range), free better TWF, and can still leverage Dueling fighting style because you only ever have 1 weapon in hand at any time. Plus it totally solves the issue of having enough daggers on hand, or having to draw them. And even with the delay to Extra Attack to Character Level 9, you'll have a second attack from Rogue 3 onward, so it won't hurt.

You'd just have to be okay with using psychic knives instead of real ones.

[Greenfeuer]

Soulknife Rogue 3/Swords Bard X is actually a really solid "knife throwing" build. You get a better ranged throwing weapon (60' range), free better TWF, and can still leverage Dueling fighting style because you only ever have 1 weapon in hand at any time. Plus it totally solves the issue of having enough daggers on hand, or having to draw them. And even with the delay to Extra Attack to Character Level 9, you'll have a second attack from Rogue 3 onward, so it won't hurt.

You'd just have to be okay with using psychic knives instead of real ones.

Yeah, considered that one aswell, however, it may make the concept feel abit messy, but I am thinking upon Soulknife as an option too.

As you said, great for throwing knifes and more!

[Psyren]

Soulknife 3/Whispers Bard X = yo dawg, I heard you like psiblades, so we put psiblades in your psiblades so you can pstab while you pstab

[Sigreid]

I've come to value con over dex on my non heavy armor characters after realizing the way the numbers work as you level up most of the time I know if I can get hit I'm almost certainly going to most of the time. Thus I focus on being able to take that hit and either end the opponent or get away from them.

[RogueJK]

Soulknife 3/Whispers Bard X = yo dawg, I heard you like psiblades, so we put psiblades in your psiblades so you can pstab while you pstab

Yep.

Soulknife/Swords = 3x attacks, with steadier moderate damage all day long, and Blade Flourishes a few times per day.

Souldknife/Whispers = 2x attacks, lesser round-to-round damage but bigger damage novas a few times per day. (And all-in on Psychic damage.)

[Greenfeuer]

Yep.

Soulknife/Swords = 3x attacks, with steadier moderate damage all day long, and Blade Flourishes a few times per day.

Souldknife/Whispers = 2x attacks, lesser round-to-round damage but bigger damage novas a few times per day. (And all-in on Psychic damage.)

Both sounds epic! But so faar Swashbuckler is the most luring one.

But may consider looking more into soul knife or even whisper bard.

I just feel like a acrobatic Jester/darkest dungeon Jester feel, fits better with the duel wielding Swords bard, who get ekstra speed and flourish moves and Swashbuckler too or Assassin maybe even.

Even tho Whisper bard is really tempting!

Do feel free to leave me more feedback tho! 😊