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goken04
2007-12-10, 06:28 PM
I'm going to be in a campaign soon (idk what starting level, prolly somewhere between 1-10) and I'm looking to play a Vanara (OA, -2 STR, +2 Int, +2 Wis) Swordsage (flavored as a ninja-type character) and I'm looking for some advice on the build.

I'm considering foregoing STR entirely in favor of Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade. Is it worth the feat investment to be able to dump STR and jack Dex and Wis for my AC? If I took Shadow Blade, about the only weapons I could use with that are daggers or short swords, and neither of those options leave me with very cool ninja weapons. I mean, if I'm gonna spend a feat to get my Dex to damage, I want to be doing 1d6 with the sword. Is it worth the EWP to get a spike chain to clean up the battlefield? With a high dex, Combat Reflexes would be nice. But at this point, I'm up to four feats! Without flaws (idk if they'll be allowed), which means I wouldn't be able to even pull all that off until level 9. Is it worth a fighter dip? Or maybe I should go Psychic Warrior for a level or two?

Is there another cool or useful way to go about being a Vanara Swordsage (Read: Monkey ninja!)? Almost all official WotC material will be allowed.

goken04
2007-12-12, 12:55 AM
Little help...? :smallbiggrin:

AmberVael
2007-12-12, 01:06 AM
I've personally played a kobold swordsage with the same mechanics. He used a short sword. As long as you take advantage of the damage boosting maneuvers, it can be worth it. Just don't drop your strength past 10, because you don't replace strength with Shadow Hand, but add strength and dex together. (There was a misprint, which I caught kind of late too. Check the discrepancy between the mini text, and the full text).

As for chain with this build, no, that's not an especially good idea. While yes, you will get attacks of opportunity and what not, but you'd not be able to trip well, since you'd have low strength (which is one of the advantages to the chain. Battlefield control, all the way). Chain itself, possibly a good idea. Chain and low strength? Not quite as much. Might as well use a different weapon.

Lastly, don't take a dip as a sword sage. It cuts out your only true source of power- your maneuvers.

tyckspoon
2007-12-12, 01:58 AM
Generally, the closer you can get to being focused on a single attribute, the better off you'll be. With a racial penalty to Strength, Finesse and Shadow Hand is probably the best way to go.

Do you plan to focus more on your Dex or your Wis? If you get a high enough Wis, it might be worth dipping into a Wis-based caster; a level or two of Cleric could be useful. PsyWar wouldn't be a bad idea either; personally, I think the extra buff powers you could pick up with it would be worth a little lost maneuver progression. However, if you go PsyWar, be aware that you'll need to take multiple levels for it to be useful. The class has a very limited power point pool, and bonus power points are based on manifester levels, so you'll need 2-4 levels of PsyWar before you can do very much with it. hmm.. 4 levels PsyWar would probably be best, if you're willing to sacrifice the Swordsage progression for that much. 2 bonus feats, a 2nd level power, enough manifester progression to use Expansion with the 10 min/level duration instead of round/level. Martial Study is a Fighter bonus feat, as well, so if you have nothing else to take with a Psywar bonus you can use Martial Study to continue gaining maneuvers.

goken04
2007-12-12, 12:54 PM
Chain itself, possibly a good idea. Chain and low strength? Not quite as much. Might as well use a different weapon.

Here's the thing, though: The chain is the only 2-Handed weapon and the only reach weapon that I can use Shadow Hand (not to mention Weapon Finesse) on. With Dex being my highest stat (most likely), it should be easy to have up five or six AoOs per round with Combat Reflexes. With nothing to do with my off-hand (no sheilds, no feats that would work with this build that I've found), it doesn't make sense to use anything other than at least a one-handed weapon with two hands (but there aren't any one-handed weapons on the Shadow Hand list!). With Dex being so high, it would be great synergy to make use of it with Combat Reflexes + Reach. I know that it's feat intensive to use a spiked chain, but if I only get it for the reach and two handed-ness, I only need the two feats, which I could easily get dipping two in fighter or psychic warrior. If I did either of those, I'd only lose one initiator level. If I took fighter at level one, I could have weapon finesse from the beginning. It would help my Bab and my Fort save. If I took Psychic Warrior, I could get the feats, two powers (I'm thinking Camouflage and Innertial Armor; I know Expansion would be great for reach and Combat Reflexes, but it's just way too un-stealthy and ninja-like for my char concept, I think) and the ability to take 15 on a Concentration check by expending my Psionic focus (helloooooooo Diamond Mind!). Do you think either sets of benefits outways the loss of one Initiator level? Also, while it is feat intensive, I'm not really seeing any other good feats to make use of with this build. Any thoughts?

Additionally, though my Str will be low, there are still maneuvers I could use to help me make use of the bonus to trip and disarm.

AmberVael
2007-12-12, 01:41 PM
Here's the thing, though: The chain is the only 2-Handed weapon and the only reach weapon that I can use Shadow Hand (not to mention Weapon Finesse) on. With Dex being my highest stat (most likely), it should be easy to have up five or six AoOs per round with Combat Reflexes. With nothing to do with my off-hand (no sheilds, no feats that would work with this build that I've found), it doesn't make sense to use anything other than at least a one-handed weapon with two hands (but there aren't any one-handed weapons on the Shadow Hand list!). With Dex being so high, it would be great synergy to make use of it with Combat Reflexes + Reach. I know that it's feat intensive to use a spiked chain, but if I only get it for the reach and two handed-ness, I only need the two feats, which I could easily get dipping two in fighter or psychic warrior. If I did either of those, I'd only lose one initiator level. If I took fighter at level one, I could have weapon finesse from the beginning. It would help my Bab and my Fort save. If I took Psychic Warrior, I could get the feats, two powers (I'm thinking Camouflage and Innertial Armor; I know Expansion would be great for reach and Combat Reflexes, but it's just way too un-stealthy and ninja-like for my char concept, I think) and the ability to take 15 on a Concentration check by expending my Psionic focus (helloooooooo Diamond Mind!). Do you think either sets of benefits outways the loss of one Initiator level? Also, while it is feat intensive, I'm not really seeing any other good feats to make use of with this build. Any thoughts?

Additionally, though my Str will be low, there are still maneuvers I could use to help me make use of the bonus to trip and disarm.

Who says that a two-handed reach weapon with finesse and shadow hand is the only good choice? Yes, if you could easily get the weapon, it would be a good choice, but considering the feats, it might not be. Why care about using something two handed? Your extra hand on the weapon won't do squat anyways, since you're going to dump strength. How will having a two handed weapon help you? Whether you have one or two hands on your weapon isn't going to matter at all. Except for strength related damage, there is no mechanical benefit, and you don't get that benefit, so it shouldn't factor in at all.
As such, with this build you only need to worry about the other factors of the weapons. Lets compare the short sword to the chain.

Other such factors:

1d6 short sword damage vs. 2d4 chain damage.
For a sword sage, the base weapon damage shouldn't truly be a factor. Your boosts and other maneuvers should be the real focus. The difference is frankly negligible.

Nothing special vs. Trip and Disarm
Your strength, as already stated, really disables this feature. You're relying on Weapon Finesse to hit things. Sure, you could use maneuvers to help you out but that is really sapping up all of your class options and turning you into a one trick pony, which means when that four legged, untrippable creature with claws comes along, it won't help. And there are A LOT of monsters that trip and disarm won't work on. It isn't a general enough combat option for you to spend quite so much effort on.

Combat Reflex Capabilities
Here's the biggest issue. The spiked chain's reach does help open up AoO opportunities, which allows you to take more attacks.
However, you're not going to be getting 5-6 AoOs a round. On average, you'll probably be getting one AoO or perhaps two on a good round, if you're positioning and moving yourself properly. Just because you can take 5-6 per round doesn't mean you get to take them all.
On top of that, you won't be able to use your valuable boosts and maneuvers on those AoOs, so you'll likely be doing below par damage with those attacks after the first few levels, assuming the monsters there don't just laugh at you and pick you off with ranged weapons.
Combat Reflexes will do okay later, once you get Rolibar's Gambit (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Robilar~s_Gambit,all) but you can use that feat just as well with a short sword.


As for dipping... again, I really don't think it a good idea. You're losing access to higher maneuvers and the ability to use them more often for a few spells. It's like multiclassing between wizard and cleric.
Usually not worth it.
On top of that, you're multiclassing for feats that aren't going to be as worthwhile, and a few spells that will prevent you from attacking the first rounds of combat, or using your maneuvers.
Doubly not worth it.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-12, 01:58 PM
And do never forget DEX + Swordsage = Viable TWF monkey (pun unintended). You can easily get 32 attacks in a single round without being a one trick pony, Which says a lot of it.

silentknight
2007-12-12, 05:11 PM
I saw a board game at the store last night, one of those trivia/make-up- definitions-for-strange-words type of games. Anyway, one of the player pieces you use to indicate progress across the board was a monkey ninja.

goken04
2007-12-13, 12:38 AM
Okay, you have me. What should I use my feats on, then?

Just a caveat, the last and only other ToB character I played was a TWF build, so I'm really not interested in playing another (although it did kick all amounts of hydra-butt)!

goken04
2007-12-14, 05:12 PM
Okay, so now I know the details on the campaign.

We will be level 6. I rolled stats (4d6 drop one) that were VERY high: 12, 12, 14, 16, 16, 13. I can put the stats anywhere I like. As a Vanara, I will get a -2 to STR and a +2 to INT and WIS, as well as a climb speed. How should I array my stats?

I'm still really torn about my build. Observe:

Fighter 2/Swordsage 4
Feats:
ECL1 -Weapon Finesse, EWP(Spiked Chain)
ECL2 -Combat Reflexes
ECL3 -Shadow Blade
ECL4
ECL5
ECL6 -Hold the Line
Stats: 12,16,14,14,18,12
AVG HP: 45.5
BAB +5
Base Saves: 4, 4, 4
Damage: 2d4+4, plus 4 w/ Shadow Hand strikes
Reach: 10'
Initiator Level: 5
Maneuvers Known: 9
Meneuvers Readied: 5
Stances Known: 2

Psychic Warrior 2/Swordsage 4
ECL1 -Combat Reflexes, EWP(Spiked Chain)
ECL2 -Weapon Finesse
ECL3 -Shadow Blade
ECL4
ECL5
ECL6 -Hold the Line
Stats: 12,16,14,14,18,12
AVG HP: 42.5
BAB +4
Base Saves: 4, 4, 4
Damage: 2d4+4, plus 4 w/ Shadow Hand strikes
Reach: 10'
Initiator Level: 5
Maneuvers Known: 9
Meneuvers Readied: 5
Stances Known: 2
Powers Known: 2
PP: 5

Swordsage 6
ECL 1 -Shadow Blade
ECL 2 -
ECL 3 -Weapon Finesse
ECL 4 -
ECL 5 -
ECL 6 -???
Stats: 10,16,14,16,18,12
AVG HP: 42.5
BAB +4
Base Saves: 2, 5, 5
Damage: 1d6+3, plus 4 w/ Shadow Hand strikes
Reach: 5'
Initiator Level: 6
Maneuvers Known: 11
Meneuvers Readied: 6
Stances Known: 3

What feat should I put in there for the all Swordsage build? Is it really better than the psychic warrior build? I will probably only level up this character once, at most, so anything beyond this level is irrelevant. Thoughts?