GOO Warlock multi class dilemma

[TH3_R4N63R]

Hello guys,
I am currently playing a 7lv GOO warlock and I feel restricted in my multi class options.
We are using core books and XGtE, my stats are 10 15 12 10 12 19 respectively.
I was wondering if GOO 9/Lore Bard 10/Kwlg Cleric 1 was a suitable multiclass. I'm aiming to make a fun utility spellcaster.
I any help would be appreciated and any other potential builds would be welcome. Thanks

[Mastikator]

I'm afraid 12 wisdom is not enough to multiclass into cleric. You can only multiclass into bard and sorcerer with those stats. Warlock/Bard is a good combo if your table takes short rests. I wouldn't worry so much about what my character looks like at level 20, most campaigns don't go to level 20.

[RogueJK]

You can only multiclass into bard and sorcerer with those stats.

With a 15 DEX, Rogue and Fighter are also options.



You mentioned wanting to be a utility caster. What Pact are you? A Tome Pact Warlock with the Book of Ancient Secrets Invocation is already one of the best utility casters in the game, with access to every ritual utility spell from every class.

If you're already Tome Pact but don't have BoAS, you can swap out an Invocation at any new Warlock level, so at Level 8 you can trade one of your current ones for Book of Ancient Secrets.

If you aren't already Tome Pact, a new optional rule from TCoE allows you to swap Pacts anytime you gain an ASI, which you would be next level at Level 8. Combined with the above, you could be Tome Pact and have BoAS by next level, if your DM would allow use of that optional rule.



If you really want a level of Knowledge Cleric, you could take that after Warlock 8, if you used the ASI to bump CHA to 20 and WIS to 13, to meet the multiclassing minimum stat requirement for Cleric. But if you want more skill utility, a level of Rogue could be better than a level of Knowledge Cleric, plus would let you use the ASI to round up your CHA to 20 and DEX to 16, which is a better stat allocation overall. 1 level of Knowledge Cleric gets you Proficiency and Expertise in two INT skills, but whether that's useful is entirely up to how often your DM uses INT skills checks (mine rarely does). Whereas 1 level of Rogue gets you proficiency in any one additional skill, plus Expertise in any two of your proficient skills. That could be even more useful, if there are certain skills that come up often for you (like Perception and Stealth, or Persuasion and Deception).



Switching to Bard will only result in heavily diluting your spellcasting options. You'll end up as a higher level character with access to only lower level spells AND only lower level spell slots, since Pact and Spell slots are tracked separately. That's going to feel really underpowered. A Warlock 1 or 2/Bard X multiclass works fine... But Warlock 7-9/Bard X doesn't really.



Therefore, I think your best option is to stick to Warlock to 8 (using the paths described above to gain Tome Pact and Book of Ancient Secrets for all the utility spells), then consider dipping a level into either Rogue or Knowledge Cleric for greater skill utility, then go back to Tomelock full time to preserve your high level spellcasting.

Or, depending on how lenient your DM is, perhaps ask to respec your PC levels into something like GOOlock 1 or 2/Lore Bard 5 or 6, and consider taking the Ritual Caster Wizard feat at Bard 4 or 8 for utility rituals.

[TH3_R4N63R]

Yeah, I'm pact of the Tome and already have the Book of Ancient Secrets, and as for Bard 10 and warlock 9, I thought that might be good because they will both be limited to level 5 spells, giving them coherence.
What specific Subclasses would you recommend?
Another consideration, was CotL Swamp Druid for unlimited Darkness and Horizon walker ranger, but it seems like I've gone too far to change and become melee oriented.
What do you guys think?
(Ps: I haven’t found any build using GOO, so any examples would help)

[RogueJK]

as for Bard 10 and warlock 9, I thought that might be good because they will both be limited to level 5 spells, giving them coherence

But when all the other casters are running around with 6th/7th/8th/9th level spells, and the higher level enemies and obstacles are designed around PCs having access to high level spells, then being relegated to merely 5th level spells will hurt you quite a bit.

You'll have effectively nerfed yourself from a full caster into a half caster, like a Ranger or Paladin but without any of the extra martial benefits to compensate, so you're neither an effective high level spellcaster nor an effective high level weapon combatant. And you'll have access to neither class' high level abilities.


Another consideration, was CotL Swamp Druid for unlimited Darkness and Horizon walker ranger

At this point, after 7 levels of Warlock, there's really no multiclass other than a ~1 level dip that is going to pay off. Trying to go for something like Warlock 8/Druid 3+/Ranger 5+ is a losing proposition. Again, you don't want to end up as a high level character with nothing but low level spells/abilities. Having a wide but shallow ability pool is a bad position to be in with upper level D&D.

With very few exceptions, 5E multiclassing is best served by going with a primary class with most of your levels, along with a small dip into a secondary class (usually 1-3 levels, but occasionally 5 to get Extra Attack). This prevents your higher level abilities in your primary class from being overly delayed, or missed altogether.

Stuff like 10/10 builds or 10/5/5 builds practically never work out, especially with spellcasting classes that are so reliant on scaling their spells known and spell slots to keep up with the scaling enemies and challenges.

If you're truly dead-set on wanting more Darkness castings, then dipping 3 levels into Shadow Sorcerer might be an option, before going back to GOOlock. You'd get 3 additional castings of Darkness per day (same as a Swamp Druid), along with some good defensive 1st level spells like Shield and Absorb Elements, and 4 more utility cantrips. This will delay your high level spells by 3 levels, which will hurt a little bit, but you can still get your full GOO subclass abilities, and eventually reach full 9th level spellcasting (if you make it to Level 20).


but it seems like I've gone too far to change and become melee oriented.

Correct. With a 15 DEX and 12 CON you don't have the stats to back up being melee oriented, and with this hypothetical Warlock/Druid/Ranger, you'd be something like Level 13 or more before you even got basic Extra Attack anyway.

Again, you'd end up as a high level character with nothing but low level abilities, which just doesn't work, and leads to player frustration.


(Ps: I haven’t found any build using GOO, so any examples would help)

Likely because GOO is widely considered to be one of the mechanically weakest Warlock patrons, second only to Undying.

It's fine for a single class Warlock, but doesn't offer anything that synergizes well with other classes/subclasses, or that can be combo'd with some other classes' ability for a powerful effect. (Other than as a generic Paladin/Warlock build for smiting with short rest Pact slots, which your stats don't allow for.)

The only somewhat common GOOlock multiclass build discussion I can recall was back in the early days of PHB-only 5E, when Knowledge Cleric 1/GOOlock X was a sometimes popular option, mainly to get a better armor class and a little extra skill utility for your GOOlock, while sticking to the "forbidden eldritch knowledge" vibe. But again, that's a nearly-single-classed Warlock with a 1 level multiclass dip.

[TH3_R4N63R]

It looks like I’ll have to stay full warlock then. Thanks for the help anyway.
As you’ve probably guessed by now, I don’t really know in what style to play a GOO warlock. Spells are hard to choose from, as Pact Magic has only a few spell slots. Any flavour, mechanical or role-playing wise could help, and please tell how you guys play your GOO based characters.
How do you guys determine, especially in combat, when to use your pack magic, and assess its helpfulness to the situation? (Or is it hit-and-mis/gut instinct)
Is spamming spells and then asking for a short rest an effective tactic? It seems like it wouldn’t work, especially considering party-relation wise. (The GM would probably disapprove)

[Rukelnikov]

It looks like I’ll have to stay full warlock then. Thanks for the help anyway.
As you’ve probably guessed by now, I don’t really know in what style to play a GOO warlock. Spells are hard to choose from, as Pact Magic has only a few spell slots. Any flavour, mechanical or role-playing wise could help, and please tell how you guys play your GOO based characters.
How do you guys determine, especially in combat, when to use your pack magic, and assess its helpfulness to the situation? (Or is it hit-and-mis/gut instinct)
Is spamming spells and then asking for a short rest an effective tactic? It seems like it wouldn’t work, especially considering party-relation wise. (The GM would probably disapprove)

I played an almost even split GOO/Storm Sorc from 1 to 17 with very similar book restrictions (began before XGE but we also used SCAG and UA content). I was very trigger happy with my Pact Slots outside combat, and during combat I'd open with a Quickened concentration and Eldritch Blast, and then proceeded to spam EB. But I knew I could do that because the way my group plays, if we are in a relative safe place (like most towns or cities) short rests are assumed to happen, so if we were planning our next moves at the inn or I was strolling around the market doing some shopping Pact slots were effectively free castings most of the time (the few times they were not was when combat broke out in town), Subtle Detect Thoughts, Suggestion and Sending were spells I'd cast very regularly when in settlements.

If you don't mind spamming EB you are just 3 levels away from Quickened spell (though realistically, you need to have a cap of at least 4 SP to have 2 uses of Quickened in store, and can make more out of converting pact slots into SP). As for variety, it will depend on what Sorc sub and metamagics you choose, going Divine Soul gets you access to the Cleric spell list which can be interesting, and Subtle, Quickened, Twin and even Extend depending on your spell selection can all be very useful.

[Kvess]

Hello guys,
I am currently playing a 7lv GOO warlock and I feel restricted in my multi class options.
We are using core books and XGtE, my stats are 10 15 12 10 12 19 respectively.
I was wondering if GOO 9/Lore Bard 10/Kwlg Cleric 1 was a suitable multiclass. I'm aiming to make a fun utility spellcaster.
I any help would be appreciated and any other potential builds would be welcome. Thanks

If you considered a cleric multiclass, would a paladin dip be on the table? Pact spellslots that refresh on a short rest work well with divine smite.

[RogueJK]

If you considered a cleric multiclass, would a paladin dip be on the table? Pact spellslots that refresh on a short rest work well with divine smite.

With only a 10 STR, they're two ASIs away from being able to multiclass into Paladin. It requires a minimum 13 STR and CHA.

[Clause]

Sorcerer can be a good multiclass for a GOO.
"DIVIVE" soul, can be a great fluff.
Aberrant mind is the perfect horror completness for the idea os stract powers for a GOO. Shadow nagic or draconic bloodline can be good for the RP. So, sorcerer will be the best thing you can do as multiclass

[TH3_R4N63R]

Keeping with dip-in multiclass, would 3 levels of Druid (CotL Coast) buff me up a bit. Having those two useful spells indefinitely sounds pretty attractive.

[Rukelnikov]

Keeping with dip-in multiclass, would 3 levels of Druid (CotL Coast) buff me up a bit. Having those two useful spells indefinitely sounds pretty attractive.

Both Misty Step and Mirror Image are on the Sorc, Warlock and Wizard lists, if they interest comes from the free preparations, you can get the same going Aberrant Mind or Clockwork Soul.

[RogueJK]

Keeping with dip-in multiclass, would 3 levels of Druid (CotL Coast) buff me up a bit. Having those two useful spells indefinitely sounds pretty attractive.

Not really.

Your WIS doesn't meet the minimum to multiclass into Druid. So you're looking at waiting another level and spending an ASI on raising WIS, when it's better served elsewhere. Even then, your WIS will be a mere 13/+1 or 14/+2. That's not high enough to make your Druid spells and cantrips all that viable at the levels you're going to be at (10+). Sure, you could stick to strictly non-WIS-dependent spells, but that's limiting your options.

Whereas, as noted in my prior post, if you really want access to some 2nd level spells and spell slots, 3 levels of Sorcerer is a much better option (though likely not as good as simply staying Warlock for 3 more levels). You won't have to "waste" an ASI on raising WIS, and you'll be able to use your already high CHA for all of the Sorcerer cantrips and spells you'd be gaining. Plus 3 levels of Shadow Sorcerer specifically would let you learn Misty Step, Mirror Image, AND Darkness, all three of the spells that you've mentioned from Swamp/Coast Druid that interest you, whereas Coast Druid only gets you 2 out of 3, and Swamp Druid only gets you 1 out of 3. In addition, Shadow Sorcerer also lets you use Sorcery Points for additional Darkness castings.


Also, you've used terms like "unlimited" and "indefinite" in two different posts when referring to Land Druid's Circle Spells... Keep in mind that you do still have to spend spell slots when casting those Circle spells. They're not at-will "free" castings. The ability states that these Circle spells "[don't] count against the number of spells you can prepare each day". But preparing spells is different than casting spells.


You prepare the list of druid spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the druid spell list. When you do so, choose a number of druid spells equal to your Wisdom modifier + your druid level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots. You can also change your list of prepared spells when you finish a long rest.
...
To cast one of these druid spells, you must expend a slot of the spell’s level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest.

A 3rd level Land Druid would have 2x 2nd level slots per long rest, plus the ability to recharge a 3rd one via Natural Recovery. That's at most 3x 2nd level spells cast per day using these spell slots.

Whereas a 3rd level Shadow Sorcerer gets the same 2x 2nd level slots per long rest, plus then can cast Darkness via 2 Sorcery Points up to another 3x times per day, if they were to burn all but 1 of their 1st level Sorcerer slots for a total of 6 SP throughout the day.

That works out to nearly twice as many 2nd level spell castings per day as a 3rd level Land Druid gets. (5 vs. 3)

(You could also use your 4th/5th level Warlock Pact slots on those 2nd level spells, but that would be a waste unless it's a dire emergency, since Darkness, Misty Step, and Mirror Image don't benefit at all from being upcast into higher level slots.)