CR adjustment for missing health

[Jaided]

I have a 6th level party that has decided to track down and kill an Elder Elemental (CR 11). I explained at session zero that the world was a living place, and if they just decide to grab jobs off the job board without stopping to think it through, they might get a job too tough for them. Basically, there are jobs there that are intended for 12th level parties, and 2nd level parties. This is the one they decided to grab. It just got done fighting another elemental, and is going to be weakened as a result. Assuming it has, let's say, 50 of it's full 200 health, where would you put the CR?

[Crake]

I have a 6th level party that has decided to track down and kill an Elder Elemental (CR 11). I explained at session zero that the world was a living place, and if they just decide to grab jobs off the job board without stopping to think it through, they might get a job too tough for them. Basically, there are jobs there that are intended for 12th level parties, and 2nd level parties. This is the one they decided to grab. It just got done fighting another elemental, and is going to be weakened as a result. Assuming it has, let's say, 50 of it's full 200 health, where would you put the CR?

Since its at a quarter hp, i would probably reduce its CR by 2, which represents roughly a halving of its threat (each doubling of monsters adds +2 to the CR). Its hp is quartered, but it still has defensive bonuses (DR), and its offensive capabilities are all still completely intact

[Inevitability]

Elder air elemental is near-guaranteed to win initiative, flies up to the PCs with its 100 ft. fly speed, uses Whirlwind and forces two DC 28 save that everyone's gonna fail (at level 6, I'd be very surprised to see a save above +9).

PCs then get to attack with -2 to-hit against 27 AC, DR 10/- and concealment, which is really hard to overcome even if there's 'only' 50 HP behind it all. Casters need to cast defensively and succeed on a separate concentration check, with low odds to succeed overall. Next turn, the elemental runs 500 ft. straight up, drops the entire party, and watches them splatter for 20d6 damage next turn. Frankly, flying 150 ft up is probably enough and makes the fall damage happen one turn sooner iirc.

So whether or not assigning a CR even makes sense here depends on a simple question: does the elemental have its whirlwind available, and does your party regularly prepare Feather Fall?

[Jaided]

Elder air elemental is near-guaranteed to win initiative, flies up to the PCs with its 100 ft. fly speed, uses Whirlwind and forces two DC 28 save that everyone's gonna fail (at level 6, I'd be very surprised to see a save above +9).

PCs then get to attack with -2 to-hit against 27 AC, DR 10/- and concealment, which is really hard to overcome even if there's 'only' 50 HP behind it all. Casters need to cast defensively and succeed on a separate concentration check, with low odds to succeed overall. Next turn, the elemental runs 500 ft. straight up, drops the entire party, and watches them splatter for 20d6 damage next turn. Frankly, flying 150 ft up is probably enough and makes the fall damage happen one turn sooner iirc.

So whether or not assigning a CR even makes sense here depends on a simple question: does the elemental have its whirlwind available, and does your party regularly prepare Feather Fall?

I didn't say it was an Air Elemental

[Doctor Despair]

I didn't say it was an Air Elemental

Given you didn't specify, Inevitable probably just picked what they thought was the most problematic option to discuss.

[JNAProductions]

I feel like it'd end one of two ways.

1) The Elemental trounces the party, because they can't bypass its defenses enough.
2) The party trounces the Elemental, because they can bypass its defenses and it only has 50 HP.

I do NOT anticipate a good fight occurring.

[KillianHawkeye]

The best encounter IMO would be for the elemental, realizing a bunch of murderhobos just showed up while it's still gravely wounded, would start the combat with its biggest attack, and then try to flee or evade the PCs while they try to follow it or track it somehow.

You might have to reason that even an elemental lives in some kind of lair nearby. But it will still be difficult if it's an Earth elemental in a burrowable environment, or a Water elemental near water. An Air elemental can just fly away. That leaves a Fire elemental as the easiest to follow. But following the lair angle, it might be possible for a party to reason out a likely lair location once they see what type of elemental they're dealing with (or if they're already informed of such), given enough scouting of the surrounding area.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Disproportionate offense compared to defense is just a taste of high-level rocket-tag. There's a high chance a Fire or Earth Elemental would kill a level 6 PC in one round before the rest of the party finishes them off, and an Air and Water elemental trap the whole party and whittle them down if they fail a save, which would make them feel hopeless if they can't escape. But since high-level elementals are tanks more than they are masters of offense, it may make for a decent fight, if shorter than average and with probably some casualties. I'd agree on CR 9, if the elemental wins the initiative, that is to say a very hard battle that unoptimized lv 6 characters have a good chance to lose.

[Biggus]

Elder air elemental is near-guaranteed to win initiative

Not true. Given that Sign and Nerveskitter are 1st-level spells and that Improved Initiative is one of the most popular feats in the game, it's far from uncommon to see 6th-level characters with initiative bonuses in the region of +10. It's most likely that the elemental will win initiative but it's certainly not near-guaranteed.



So whether or not assigning a CR even makes sense here depends on a simple question: does the elemental have its whirlwind available, and does your party regularly prepare Feather Fall?

Also depends how far away it is when they spot it. With its -8 to the DC to spot it for being huge, seeing it at over 100ft away isn't that difficult. It doesn't have any ranged attacks to that's basically a free round for the PCs if so.

It's certainly a very dangerous fight and may result in a TPK, but it's not a foregone conclusion (barring flight/feather fall) as you make it sound.


Since its at a quarter hp, i would probably reduce its CR by 2, which represents roughly a halving of its threat (each doubling of monsters adds +2 to the CR). Its hp is quartered, but it still has defensive bonuses (DR), and its offensive capabilities are all still completely intact

In general I'd say -2CR for losing 3/4 of your HPs is about right.

@OP: given that this is a very nonstandard encounter, there isn't really a definite answer. It's going to depend on the composition of the party, the circumstances under which they fight it and which elemental type it is how much of a threat it really is. I'd take Crake's suggestion of CR9 as a starting point, but in reality it may be a point or two higher or lower.

[ciopo]

If it's a fire elemental, then at 50hp it's within range of boing 1 turn ko'ed with its cold vulnerability, so I'd put that one at a lower CR than proposed, perhabs 7