small houserule idea, need to see how to break it.

[Pinkie Pyro]

The idea is simple: instead of a +X weapon adding a flat +X to damage, it gains gains damage equal to its base damage for each +1. (ie: +1 falchion does 4d4 damage)

this damage functions as the new base damage, so it is multiplied by criticals and such.

the intention is to give martials a bit more obvious weapon scaling and give the basic "+X" a little more oomph. this is for relatively optimized parties in mind, but sticking with tier 3 and below because that's what we enjoy playing at.

initial observations: far more valuable on larger weapons than smaller ones... not really a problem, two handed weapons are already optimal so they just get to enjoy the benefits more.

Thoughts, and how would you break it?

[Buufreak]

"How would you break it?"

I feel the most obvious answer is something something ubercharger, which is the build idea I see the most whenever looking to get the most out of martials. I suppose improved manyshot splitting bow goes in here too, but now relies far less on precision damage.

Does this idea work on natural weapons? If so, warshaper just got even more stupid. Totemist would also really enjoy it.

[JNAProductions]

Do martials at your table struggle with damage? Because that’s all this addresses. It doesn’t address any utility, mobility, or defensive issues.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I honestly don't see much as far as breaking it. Extra dice of weapon damage isn't something new. It makes a +5 weapon just as good or better compared to a +1 flaming, shock, frost, corrosive weapon, so I'd say it's an improvement. You'd get more damage out of the Bane property as well.

Would other effects that add +X damage also do this? i.e. a Sword of Subtlety (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#swordofSubtlety)?

[Naaman]

The idea is simple: instead of a +X weapon adding a flat +X to damage, it gains gains damage equal to its base damage for each +1. (ie: +1 falchion does 4d4 damage)

this damage functions as the new base damage, so it is multiplied by criticals and such.

the intention is to give martials a bit more obvious weapon scaling and give the basic "+X" a little more oomph. this is for relatively optimized parties in mind, but sticking with tier 3 and below because that's what we enjoy playing at.

initial observations: far more valuable on larger weapons than smaller ones... not really a problem, two handed weapons are already optimal so they just get to enjoy the benefits more.

Thoughts, and how would you break it?

I'd break it by playing a Goliath barbarian with exotic weapon proficiency (full blade) and then taking the monkey grip feat, and either reckless rage feat or whirling frenzy ACF.


Another more frightening option would be a goliath fighter (again with monkey grip) going into Weapon Master (from OA or Sword& Fist). You get max damage (no roll) as often as level/day and a +2 expansion to the threat range that stacks with improved critical. Also, 1/2 level/day you can increase the crit multiplier on a successful critical hit. Entry requirements are stiff, but in this case, likely worth it.

[Pinkie Pyro]

"How would you break it?"

I feel the most obvious answer is something something ubercharger, which is the build idea I see the most whenever looking to get the most out of martials. I suppose improved manyshot splitting bow goes in here too, but now relies far less on precision damage.

Does this idea work on natural weapons? If so, warshaper just got even more stupid. Totemist would also really enjoy it.

It does work on natural weapons!

ubercharger honestly does enough damage i don't think this rule particularly effects them except at the lower levels, which is fine.

the bow thing *is* a great point. I don't think it'll be too problematic when they've already got manyshot splitting in there, though.

never had anyone play a warshaper or totemist, so I'd love a bit more explanation on that if you can. (though I assume it's "big natural weapons" and "free +X enhancement" or something along those lines)


Do martials at your table struggle with damage? Because that’s all this addresses. It doesn’t address any utility, mobility, or defensive issues.

Oh this doesn't address a problem with the builds, but my own distaste at how underwhelming the staple "+X" weapons are. I figured this was a lightweight solution that makes them a tad more interesting, insofar as additional die are more interesting than a flat bonus.

[JNAProductions]

That’s fair.

I’m of the camp that it won’t break anything that’s not already either broken or very easy to break.

[Pinkie Pyro]

I honestly don't see much as far as breaking it. Extra dice of weapon damage isn't something new. It makes a +5 weapon just as good or better compared to a +1 flaming, shock, frost, corrosive weapon, so I'd say it's an improvement. You'd get more damage out of the Bane property as well.

Would other effects that add +X damage also do this? i.e. a Sword of Subtlety (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#swordofSubtlety)?

so far i'm in favor of it applying in all circumstances.

sword of subtlety is gonna do 2d6 or 6d6 base on a sneak attack? yeah that feels pretty kickass.

[Pezzo]

Unarmed damage would scale too quickly, it is easy to increase, easy to buff, and with a scorpion kama or a drunken master dip it can be used at range.

[glass]

so far i'm in favor of it applying in all circumstances.

sword of subtlety is gonna do 2d6 or 6d6 base on a sneak attack? yeah that feels pretty kickass.Is it just enhancement bonuses that add dice, or any and all bonuses (strength, Weapon Spec, etc)? Because I was assuming the former, but this reply seems to imply the latter.

If it is the former, PF2 does that (more or less). It skews even further towards "the weapon, not the wielder" but it works OK.

If it is a the latter, that is a **** ton of damage! Still not necessarily a problem, but it will make things even more rocket-taggy than they already are at high levels (and low levels too, come to that). Expect initiative bonuses and anti-surprise measures to be popular!

[H_H_F_F]

Being large just got big.

Expansion strategies, monk unarmed progression, all of that. Check out my Iron Chef ballisteer round build Goliath of Gath for a build that relies on big dice , and realize that you just sextupled his damage. You should consider if "getting big and improving monk options" is where you want your combat to go.

Also, typowhip, but that's obviously broken as is.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Basically, it gives back the 3.0 importance of +X (in 3.0, having a +3 weapon was much more important since most high-level outsiders had DR X/+3 or X/+4). It shouldn't break anything (PF 2 does something similar, where each +1 adds one die of damage), but would encourage taking simply +X rather than interesting abilities on your weapons. Maybe Enlarge Person and Expansion would become too strong since gaining +4d6 to damage for one spell if you have a +1 weapon is a lot.

Note that you should then increase the damage for Flaming Weapon and similar abilities, otherwise gaining +1d6 is absolutely useless. Maybe give them new abilities (Flaming deals 1d6 per round for 3 round, Corrosive deals full damage to objects, Frost reduces speed by 10ft, Shock gives +3 to hit against metal-armored opponents, Sonic makes the opponent shaken on a Will save....)

All in all, I don't think it's the best way to counteract the +X seeming irrelevant. Something that I've seen is instead to do away with +X completely and instead to give them for free with weapon abilities. For example, a Vorpal sword would also have +5 to hit and damage, and a Flaming Weapon would instead give +1 to hit and +1d6+1 to damage.

[pabelfly]

The one thing martials don't have a problem doing, at least with any level of optimization, is damage. Giving them more damage is not going to fix anything. The good stuff just gets better, and weaker builds like sword and board and TWF are still weaker builds. In fact, it will exascerbate the difference because the real winner is still what is currently the strongest strategies - two-handed or MWF.

Besides the normal ways of adding more attacks per round and picking good templates that greatly boost STR, you can choose weapons with larger damage dice such as Sugliin or Scissor Sword. Kaorti Resin crit weapons get even more ridiculous, so does being large.

Let's put all that together:

A large +1 Kaorti Resin Elven Courtblade would be 4d8, 15-20 x4, and you haven't added a single enchant on that.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Greater Magic Weapon + Greater Mighty Wallop just got more interesting. Start with a medium-sized meleer with a plain old maul, base 1d10 damage.

Normal GMWx2, level 8: 3d8+2
New GMWx2, level 8: 6d8
Change: 3d8-2 (average 11.5)

Normal GMWx2, level 16: 6d8+4
New GMWx2, level 16: 12d8
Change: 6d8-4 (average 23)

[Zancloufer]

It seems okay. +1dx is definitely better than just +1. Few things that should be looked at;

1] Flaming/Frost/etc should probably do +1d6 elemental damage PER enhancement bonus instead. As it stands they would be straight inferior to +1/+2 etc but having them scale with the enhancement would make for an interesting trade off in attempting to maximize damage. Same with the elemental crit weapons, they should at +1d8 per enhancement bonus.

2] While most of the other +1 bonuses seem fine I think many of the +2-5 would need 1-2 cost knocked off them. Definitely a lot less value in grabbing some of the higher cost tech options when you would loose out on a pile of base damage.

Also this doesn't really fix the issue with martial being underwhelming, it just doubles down on one thing they really have going for them. Though I suppose something like a +5 Flaming/Corrosive/Acidic Burst/Flaming Burst/Troll Bane Sword would be kind of hilarious.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Let's say you make a build to exploit this as hard as possible. Something like...

Monk 7 + Monk's Belt (5) + Monk's Tattoo (4) + Superior Unarmed Strike (4) = Monk 20 unarmed strike damage: 2d10 base

Large size or powerful build or Permanency: Enlarge Person or similar: +1 size
Improved Natural Attack (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#improvedNaturalAttack) feat: +1 size

Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries 8: "...the damage dealt by an initiate’s unarmed attacks increases by one die step (such as from 1d3 to 1d4, or from 1d8 to 1d10). At 8th level, it increases another die step."

Depending on the order you apply those effects, applying Initiate first gets to 2d20 which we have no precedent for upscaling weapon size, so we'll apply it last:
2d10 > 4d8 large > 6d8 huge > 6d12 Initiate
With a +5 Greater Magic Fang or Greater Magic Weapon or Amulet of Mighty Fists, you have 36d12 for an average of 234 damage per hit.
This is a minimum level 15 character, with Monk 7/ Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries 8. That has a +11 BAB, so you get four attacks/round with flurry at a -1 to hit.
Assuming you have something like Str 24, that's four attacks at +21/+21/+16/+11, for 241 average per hit. The +16 will hit 25% less and the +11 will hit 50% less compared to the +21's.

Let's look at some CR 15 monsters. An Eldritch Giant has an AC 32, an Omnimental has an AC 32, a Marut has an AC 34, an Adult Red Dragon has an AC 29, an Old White Dragon has an AC 31, etc. Looks like 31-32 is around the average, so the above character is only hitting 50% of the time at +21, 25% of the time at +16, and 5% of the time as only a natural 20 hits at +11.

So 50% + 50% + 25% + 5% is a 130% hit rate per round, at 241 average per hit is only 313.3 average damage per round.

You would need to be even higher level to mix in some spellcaster levels to (Wand of) Wraithstrike every round to bring up that hit rate. Even then, it's not a good build at all, anyone who has enough system mastery to make a build like this would know better than to try playing it.

[Reversefigure4]

This doesn't help martials per se, it helps weapon users... Which isn't necessarily the same thing. If they have to be +1 weapons, the monk is immediately outstripped massively in damage and needs damage dice increased. If it does apply to natural attacks, the polymorphed wizard hydra or Druid Bear gets stronger again. If it doesn't automatically apply to unarmed strikes, then Greater Magic Fang / Greater Magic Weapon becomes far more powerful, and your polymorphed hydra wizard is now MORE exponentially powerful than a martial.

Unless it's explicitly linked to class levels, gishes always get at least as much out of it as martials. You could link it to class (ie, a level 5 Fighter adds +1d6 damage to weapons, 2d6 at 8th level, etc), which solves the Big Weapons are better than Small Weapons thing... But it's a more complex rule. Simpler would be the class feature above as Martial Superiority, given to Fighters / Barbarians / Paladins / Monks at 5th then 8th level... But even then, you've now introduced problems where rogue Sneak Attack is worth much less.

[loky1109]

In my eyes it looks better add one damage dice per +1. Not one weapon damage, but exactly dice. Greatsword (2d6)? Add 1d6. Longsword (1d8)? Add 1d8. Some abomination with 100d3 base damage? Add 1d3. And so on.

[Crake]

In my eyes it looks better add one damage dice per +1. Not one weapon damage, but exactly dice. Greatsword (2d6)? Add 1d6. Longsword (1d8)? Add 1d8. Some abomination with 100d3 base damage? Add 1d3. And so on.

Seems anomalous that a dagger and a scythe have the same bonus, while a greataxe can be nerfed by increasing its size to large

[Pinkie Pyro]

Seems anomalous that a dagger and a scythe have the same bonus, while a greataxe can be nerfed by increasing its size to large

which is exactly why I didn't do it.

So the consensus seems to be "doesn't fix martials" which I wasn't going for with this specific change, and "makes already broken things slightly more broken" which really isn't a problem.

good to know!

as for the *other* half of the enchanting, IE special abilities or elemental stuff, those will be handled seperately.

although making it so that the elemental bonuses are flat bonuses (ie, always 2k cost) that change the enhancement bonus damage to the indicated type is a pretty simple fix for that one.

[Thunder999]

It gets silly with size increase stuff, Greater Mighty Wallop on a Heavy Flail for 6d8 base damage, +5 weapon makes it 36d8, instead of being a +5 damage that's a +135 damage on average, very OP.

[rel]

It looks like pushing a martials attack damage to the point where you can reliably oneshot anything level appropriate will now happen near automatically, instead of as a result of deliberate optimisation.

immediate knock on effects I can see are:
buffs that interact with the new rule become more valuable
state of play can more easily evolve into rocket tag
enemies with magical gear or buffs become more dangerous
martials require less optimisation to have their DPR outstrip monster health pools
flat + numbers weapon enchantments become more valuable than basically any other option