View Full Version : Analysis MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Grey_Wolf_c
2023-11-13, 04:31 PM
WARNING: This Thread WILL contain spoilers.
Smallprint: If you are unwilling to hear what MitD might be, or segments from the published books (specially SoD) then this is not a thread for you.
Everyone else: don't bother spoilering or hiding that stuff in this thread. It is what we are here for
ATTENTION: Newcomers, please read:
This thread has, over the last 500+ pages, accumulated a lot of knowledge about MitD. However, you don't need to read the whole thread (and the previous ones) to get up to speed. So long as you are reasonably familiar with these first five posts, you can jump right in, with no need to read more than the last few pages. On the other hand, please don't be surprised if your insight has been proposed before.
For relevant MitD canon and in-depth analysis of central MitD scenes, check section 1
For specific characteristics of MitD, check section 2
To see all suggestions so far (and particularly, if your idea has been mentioned before), check section 3
Thread rules and FAQ, check section 4
If you want to propose a new creature, consider using the following question template:
1) How did punch Miko and her horse through a wall?
2) Why didn't Miko or Belkar's weapons hurt [insert suggestion here]?
3) Why wouldn't a wizard recognize [insert suggestion here]?
4) Why would humans become nauseous at seeing [insert suggestion here]?
5) How did [insert suggestion here] teleport V and O-Chul to the beach with Hinjo?
Section 1: General Information
Section 1a: Directly from Rich
Rich's Words on MitD
I've been imagining the scene for MITD's eventual reveal for like nine years now
The reveal is a crucial part of the story and it will happen when it's time for it to happen.
So, just so everyone is clear: I know exactly what the Monster in the Darkness is. I have (almost) always known. Its first two or three appearances were before I had worked out much of the plot's details, so at that point, I just figured it was a mystery I would never answer. Once I started developing the real story that I was telling, around strip #100, I figured out what the monster really was and have been dropping hints ever since. (Note that nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what it is, either.) [...]I now know exactly when and why the monster will reveal itself, too ... don't expect it any time soon, though. Sorry. There's a lot of story left, and that little tidbit will need to wait to close to the end.
I will say this much: It is possible to guess.
That is, it isn't something I just made up for the story. It wouldn't be any fun for the answer to a mystery to be something I invented just for one purpose, would it? I won't finally throw back the darkness and have someone say, "Look! It was a therblewurkersaurus the entire time!" or some other made-up monster.
I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually.
[O-Chul] breaks himself out of the cage, he drives off Redcloak with a lucky shot, and most importantly, he has won the trust of the monster in the darkness over the course of months. So much so that the monster digs deep and discovers powers that he didn't even know he had in order to save him.
A lot of people have asked me whether there is any actual answer to the mystery of the Monster in the Darkness that could possibly satisfy after so many years of wondering and guessing and weighing characteristics against existing monsters and otherwise just generally thinking about it.
The answer to that question is yes. Yes, there is.
The Monster in the Darkness plays an important role in this scene [Tower scene - ed] -- perhaps the first time it has ever done so. Prior to this, the creature existed mostly as comedy relief for Xykon's team. Sure, Redcloak and Xykon talked about how powerful they thought it was, but we never actually got to see it in action. Its childlike persona had likely led many readers to feel that he wasn't a real threat... and that needed to change. And so, I had the opportunity for the monster to display a little of its power without giving too much away by encountering Miko.
This was specifically necessary because of the scene I had planned for later, when Haley and Belkar need to retrieve Roy's dead body from the monster's tea party. I wanted there to be no doubt that the monster was a real threat when they encountered it. Moreover I wanted to explore the idea that the monster itself isn't really aware of all its capabilities. It tries to tap Miko lightly, but fails. It doesn't know it can cause an earthquake by stomping until a demon roach tells it so.
[Question: has anyone out there made a guess or come to the wrong conclusion but made you think ‘that’s better than what it really is, even for a second?]
No, because if he was something else then it wouldn’t fit everything that is going to happen and has already happened. It’s not a guessing game I added to the strip just for extracurricular fun and games, it’s part of the story. There’s no answer that’s better than what he is because everything written for the last 15 years has been written with that answer in mind.
Notes:
Strip 100 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0100.html) came out Sep 2, 2004, so no creature first published after that time can be considered.
"It is possible to guess." Any number of people have jumped to the conclusion that it means that MitD must be a famous or iconic creature. The phrase warrants no such conclusion. Instead, all it says is that MitD exists listed somewhere outside OotS - nothing more and nothing less. As such, the iconic status of an idea, or lack thereof, is of no weight whatsoever when considering its fitness as MitD's species.
"someone will figure it out": related to the above, it specifies that what Rich means by "guess" is not "throwing darts while blindfolded" type of guess, but a rational, follow the clues to a conclusion process. "A potted plant that was eaten and spat out by the Snarl, giving it eyes, a horrible appearance, great strength and the ability to teleport, and look, it can be guessed- I just did!" might fit the first meaning, but not the second.
Rich's Words on Fidelity to D&D Rules
I barely even reference the 3.5 rules anymore, using them just to determine what sort of spells or class abilities a character might have and then ignoring them the rest of the time.
Notes:
Rich has made mistakes with the powers a character can have (Tsukiko's extra school), but has admitted they are mistakes. The fact he admits it is one, in addition to this quote, indicates that Rich does not routinely give characters powers they wouldn't normally have. In addition, MitD's guessing game would require him to be more careful, not less, about what abilities and powers it displays, such as immunity to mind control.
Published Canon
Stereotyped Big Game Hunters, when they capture MitD:
Monocle: "My gods, is it talking? In Common, no less!"
Jenkins: "Unbelievable!"
Monocle: "Well, that will surely fetch a fine price."
Jenkins: "Indeed!"
Monocle: "I tell you, Jenkins, I never expected to see one of these in this part of the world."
Jenkins: "Quite!"
Monocle: "One-in-a-lifetime catch, Jenkins[...]"
Circus, when the public looks upon MitD:
Human male: "Oh my gods..."
Human Male: "It's horrible!"
Human Female: "And yet... beautiful!"
Human Female Child: "Mommy, I feel funny looking at it"
Human Male: "Blerrch!" (throwing up)
Human Male in wizard's clothing: "I've never seen anything like it!" :smallconfused:
Goblin Female Child: "Wooooooo!"
Goblin Male Child: "YEAH!"
Rest of the public:
3 Human Males, 2 Human Females and 1 Halfling Male look: :smalleek:
1 Human Male has "queasy" mouth, as if about to throw up
1 Human Male has closed his eyes and is attempting to cover them with his hands
2 Goblin Males (RightEye and his oldest son) are unimpressed
RedCloak, admitting he knows what MitD is:
I know what you are. You could kill them all if you wanted.
Xykon's first look at MitD:
:xykon: "[I]Whoa! You sure are one ugly sumbitch, aren't you?"
Xykon's wording of the mind-controlling spell on MitD:
:xykon: "And if Redcloak ever betrays me, you will devour him whole and spit out that gold amulet he wears."
Nature of the darkness around MitD:
Xykon: Did you see him yet?
RedCloak: He's permanently shrouded in magical darkness. How exactly was I supposed to "see him yet"?
MitD enjoying the sunshine:
MitD: Oh man, I love the jungle! The sun, the blue skies, the fresh air—
Section 1b: The Circus SceneThe circus scene is, as befits the most MitD-centric moment in the comic, full of clues:
The public's reactions: note they are not fear, but disgust. Vomiting, queasy faces and exclamations of ugliness do not match reactions of people scared (that would be brown pants, yellow pools under the stands, and attempts to run away).
MitD's Actions: none. it is quite explicitly told he is doing nothing. Activated abilities thus are unlikely to explain this scene
Recognition: The show depends on MitD not being recognisable (billed as such), and this aspect reinforced with the guy in robes saying he's never seen anything like MitD before.
Section 1c: The Escape
Link to the scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html)
It can't be dimension door or blink because those spells have pityable ranges (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0812.html).
Teleport and Greater Teleport in the standard rules require the caster to go along with the other subjects of the spell. We have seen teleport work this way in OOTS here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0366.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0377.html), and also here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html) we get to see two teleports work this way. In fact there, there are two casters, presumably one divine (raise dead) and one arcane (teleport). Then Soul Spliced V casts (presumably) Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0649.html) and travels along too (though we don't actually see the spell cast, just the resultant "pop"). Finally when we see Epic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html) Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html), even then the caster (and his spliced spirits) go along for the ride. So although it doesn't absolutely prove that Rich insists the caster always goes along when they Teleport, it really seems to suggest that is the way it works in OOTS, which is the standard D&D rules. Teleport also requires the caster to know the destination, although when that is not the case, a lucky (i.e. plot-induced) roll in the missed teleportation table could have delivered V & O-Chul to the right place anyway.
It has been suggested that a dimensional anchor/lock cast on MitD's box would prevent him from teleporting, but not from casting it. There is no evidence that such spell has been cast on the box, since the visual effect is a green aura and coloring (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html) that is not present on either, but MitD himself may have been hit by the stray (Quickened) Dimensional Anchor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) cast by V during the preceding battle.
In the Scruf and Tumble short story (in GDGU), the carbuncle befriended by Mr. Scruffy teleported (likely with a SU-type Dimension Door (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/carbuncle/)) him without going along, suggesting that at least Dimension Door in OotS doesn't require the caster to go along
Alternatively, the Forbiddance spell provides a similar effect to that of dimension lock without the visual component, but would require it to be awkwardly placed to only cover MitD's box, since it doesn't hurt V - this would be a very strange use of a spell designed to cover a whole area from teleport. The chance of MitD remembering the password are slight, too, which would mean he'd be damaged every time he entered the box.
Standard teleporting rules do require the caster to touch any other travelers, but the rule is not observed in OotS (see any of the prior examples)
MitD could have the ability to grant Greater Teleport or its equivalent to its target, rather than cast it himself, thus leading to V or O-Chul casting it to get them out of there (although O-Chul wouldn't know where to take them anymore than MitD would, and it seems unlikely MitD would target V with that ability)
Standard 3.5 edition D&D rules say Plane Shift can be cast so that the caster does not travel along for the ride. However it also says you MUST go to another plane, not another place on the same plane and that "precise accuracy as to a particular arrival point on the intended plane is nigh impossible". Also that "creatures must find their own way back". O-Chul and V make no mention of "getting back" and have no apparent means to plane shift. Note that in most occasions plane shift has been depicted with a kind of "window (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html)" opening, but not always (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html). It has been suggested that MitD could have plane-shifted them to a good plane (e.g. Souther Gods' domain), and then where teleported back by an agent of good.
Wish and the psionic ability "reality revision" are stated as being able to "Transport Travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions".
Miracle can "Move you and your allies along with your and their gear from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error".
Limited Wish doesn't say anything about travelling or transportation explicitly.
The Epic Spell "Dreamscape" could be interpreted as providing the "Escape" capabilitiy, (see Dream Larva)
Psionics has equivalent teleportation abilities to all of the above. DaggerPen compiled a fairly complete list here.
Creatures who have the ability might have captured Ganonron after he was expelled from V, and forced him to cast the teleport (other than being theoretically possible, no monster has been found capable of doing so other than the Parshendi that came out in 2014, and there is no evidence that this scenario took place)
Selecting the Destination: Wish and Miracle have no issues with the destination of the escape. Teleport and Greater Teleport, on the other hand, do not easily explain how MitD was able to send them to a place he does not know about (teleport can only target places, not individuals). Possibilities:
MitD also used some form of Trace Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/traceTeleport.htm) to send them to where V came from
MitD "rolled" on the Mishap table due to False destination, and got 'Similar Area', which placed them in the right place
MitD possesses thought reading of some kind, and picked the destination from V's mind
Section 1d: The Tower Scene
Link to the scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html)
It is likely that Rich bent the rules of D&D to show the point about MitD being both amazingly strong and a credible threat to the OotS. Nevertheless, Nerdanel has done an analysis of the feats and strength necessary for the scene to work in accordance to the rules. Find the relevant posts here, here and here.
Section 1e: MitD's Alignment
The best that can be said about MitD's species' alignment is that it is unlikely to be Good, since RedCloak would not have recruited a Good creature to protect the goblin village given his rather dim views on the Good alignment.
This, however, is a very weak argument, since it can be argued that MitD was not, at the time, Good. Also, consider that MitD's alignment and his species' need not match (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html). As such, knowing MitD's actual alignment brings us no closer to knowing his species' alignment and, thus, for the purposes of this thread, this is a barren path of inquiry.
The only exception to this is alignment when applied to morality plane denizens (i.e. angels, demons, etc.). Rich commented on this topic in DStP:
It's important to note that this doesn't necessarily make Celia right in her views. Heck, they're not even all that consistent, considering she has been known to fly off the handle and zap people from time to time. Because, see, Celia isn't a deva or an angel; she's not an embodiment of Law or Good. She can mistakes and screw up, and she can fail to live up to her own ideals, as she does later when she finds herself cheering while Haley shoots people. She wants to be a pacifist, but she can get caught up in the excitement of battle the same as anyone else.
The entire point of their organization is to blur the lines between the the three fiendish races (demon, daemon, devil) and depict cooperation where normally one would expect backbiting and betrayal. So here, we have a slightly less neutral daemon, a slightly more chaotic devil, and a slightly more lawful demon (one who went to college with devils, even).
From the above, we know that angels and demons (unlike other outsiders) are embodiments of their own morality planes. Yes, they can change their alignment, but only slightly, and when doing so it serves the purposes of their other alignment. And even then, it is a very rare and line-pushing experiment. The embodiments of the morality planes are as follows:
Lawful Evil: Baatezu/DevilsLawful Neutral: Formians, Inevitables, ModronsLawful Good: Archons
Neutral Evil: Yugoloths/DaemonsTrue Neutral: RilmaniNeutral Good: Guardinals
Chaotic Evil: Tanar'ri/DemonsChaotic Neutral: SlaadiChaotic Good: Eladrin
Since MitD has performed both good and evil acts, it is very unlikely he is an embodiment of either Good or Evil.
Section 1f: MitD's ScoresIt has proven almost impossible to nail down what MitD's scores might be. The general agreement is that his strength must be past 30, his INT must be high (to account for his ability to learn quickly), his Wisdom be low (to account with his innocence and bad judgement) and his Charisma high (to account for the "beautiful" comment).
However, it is equally likely that he will be a near-epic creature, and as such his scores are going to be all-around high (by human standards).
Section 1g: (Not) Seeing the Gates
MitD's inability to "see" the gates is felt by several participants to be a "clue" about MitD (rather than the alternative possibility, Rule of Funny). However, no explanation that ties MitD's species to the gates has been forthcoming, except when contemplating the idea of MitD being part of the Snarl.
Alternatively, it has been proposed that since the demiplane in which the Snarl is trapped is designed to null divine magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html), and it is third-handedly established in SoD that the gods have difficulty in detecting the rifts, there might be some connection between MitD and the gods that makes him, too, unaware of the rift. Note, however, that MitD has an issue seeing the definitely-not-Snarl-related gate that Xykon installed to stop his zombies from walking into and being destroyed by the rift, so this connection is quite far-fetched.
Finally, it must be pointed out that MitD doesn't have a problem actually seeing the physical object that is the gate. Instead, his words seem to suggest that he doesn't know it is one. It has been suggested this might be because he thinks the only definition of "gate" is the portal that opens when the spell gate is cast. If he has been told that is a gate (and he probably had seen the spell before, when he previously saw the Astral Plane (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html)), he would be confused as to why he can't see one near the massive wooden thing Xykon and RC keep pointing at.
Section 1h: Recognising MitD (in-comic)There have been two alternative explanations for the Hunter's + Circus scene and the differing reactions to MitD when looked at.
On one hand, the Hunter's scene can be seen as a lampshade hanging of MitD's ability to talk, i.e. an express admission of Rich that he shouldn't, just to get it over with and ignored thereafter. The hunters see a creature that is rare, powerful, strangely non-threatening and decide to sell it. They mention it talks, and from then on Rich need not keep pointing out this fact. The circus scene builds on this, letting us know MitD is revolting to look at (or smelled, or some other passive characteristic).
On the other hand, MitD could be a shifter. The Hunters may have seen a creature that couldn't talk, because MitD was adopting the shape of one, and was sold under the guise of one such creature. The circus crowd would likewise see either a revolting creature, or one that is shifting uncontrollably, such that the change is both revolting and, for some, beautiful (like a kaleidoscope). RC would recognise MitD for what he is, a creature that both shifts and can talk, explaining why he is not surprised by this last fact. Note that while this works on paper as an explanation, no creature that fits it has ever been proposed.
Section 1i: Recognising MitD (by readers)Some people have argued that the MitD must be easily recognized because they feel it would detract from the eventual reveal if the readers cannot immediately identify its species (usually, this is countered by the argument that the reveal will likely be a dramatic moment for MitD which, while it might require a specific ability, will not be centered upon MitD's species, but his growth as a character).
Other people have argued that the MitD cannot be easily-recognized because it seems unlikely that Rich would select something easily guessable when part of the purpose of MitD was to provide a challenge to what, at the time, was a very D&D-centric readership. Faced with such an audience, Rich, they argue, would likely go for a challenging creature that would keep them (us) guessing for years to come.
Finally, some more people think that the fame of the creature is irrelevant, because nothing in Rich's words suggest that he must be famous or must be obscure and thus, unless he chooses to clarify, it is not a demonstrable characteristic upon which to build a hypothesis.
Section 1j: Suspicion of MitD's involvement in the escapeWhy wasn't MitD suspected for the escape beyond the demon roaches? RC, the resident know-it-all and most likely to connect the dots was not present for the escape - he used Word of Recall and only returned once the action was over. We also do not know how much Xykon knows about MitD. We only have MitD's word that Xykon knows what he is, and even then, given Xykon's attitude towards book knowledge, he probably only knows MitD's species name and the fact that he is strong, and thus powerful (power (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html) is all Xykon cares about). If so, Xykon would not know MitD can teleport, and likely thinks him too incompetent (and too asleep) to be responsible. All in all, the scene seems carefully orchestrated so that MitD could save O-Chul and V without giving himself away.
Section 1k: The meaning of Fine LineFor a wide variety of reasons, a number of participants feel that the "fine line" comment is meant to be a clue about MitD's authorship:
I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one
The reasoning goes that the phrase itself is unnecesary, the general understanding of it (i.e. Rich didn't create MitD) is addressed well enough in the context, and thus the retreading of the point actually hints to something not quite so clear cut - usually interpreted that Rich did have a hand in MitD's creation (because he helped craft the manual it is in, for example) or because he created it, but not for OotS.
On a strictly logical way, it is true that the sentence is somewhat redundant in context. However, it is also Rich's way of admitting that, to most of his readers, his assurance that he personally didn't create MitD is a cop-out since when MitD is revealed, he might as well have - the line he intends to draw between fantasy monsters created by him and others is fine indeed.
As a practical matter, even if the above interpretation is correct, and it is a subtle hint that Rich did in fact create MitD is some indirect way, it has never as a theory born fruit. To date no creatures have been brought forth with "partially authored by Rich" as a point in their favour.
Section 1l: MitD's Hand in #555?Unfortunately, what we see in Panel 1 in strip 555 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) is not MitD's hand, but the bucket's handle
Section 1m: MitD's Species SizeWe know that MitD has not yet reached his adult size, both from MitD's recollection of a much bigger father, and from Oona's comment that he is "so small, but will grow in time". The question, then, is how much bigger we can expect the base species to be. To answer this, size categories as used in D&D must be understood to be a logarithmic scale - each size category is double the height of the previous (length for quadrupeds) - a Medium size creature is up to 8 feet tall, a Large one 16, a Huge one 32, etc. While a child-sized Large or even Huge creature could be argued for (and is the basis for the size restriction in the FBS rules in section 3a), anything beyond has generally been found to be hard to justify. In part due to the general agreement that MitD is a pre-teen (due to his attitudes towards sex & boys-only clubs), which suggests he still has some growth to do before he becomes an adult - but not a huge growth. Humans, for example, grow about 20-30% of their height during adolescence. In D&D size terms, that might push you through one size category, but not through two (which would require more than doubling your height).
A second consideration is strength - larger creatures are, of course, stronger, but children are weaker than full grown adults. In the D&D ruleset (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases), there exists a strength growth chart for creature size advancement that can serve as a guideline to how strength changes between sizes:
Old SizeNew SizeStrDexConNat. ArmorAC/ Attack
FineDiminutiveSame-2SameSame-4
DiminutiveTiny+2-2SameSame-2
TinySmall+4-2SameSame-1
SmallMedium+4-2+2Same-1
MediumLarge+8-2+4+2-1
LargeHuge+8-2+4+3-1
HugeGargantuan+8Same+4+4-2
GargantuanColossal+8Same+4+5-4
Dragons, as one of the few species with detailed statblocks for multiple stages of development, adhere to the above strength growth, usually splitting it across the age groups that share a size.
Version History
1 - MitD - What We Know (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?114313)
2 - MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?134194)
3 - MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?156178)
4 - MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?189676)
5 - MitD V: MitD and the Templates of Doom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?231404)
6 - MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?253731)
7 - MitD 007: GoldenEyes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?293047")
8 - MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?347800)
9 - Summon MitD IX: Roll in Section 3a (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?488773)
10 - MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?494708)
11 - MitD XI: A Good Man (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?563198)
12 - MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?578378)
13 - MitD XIII: Learning is happening (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?584536)
14 - MitD XIV: High In Protean (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?611229)
15 - MitD XV: The Other Dark One (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?615971)
16 - MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?646977)
17 - MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?650507)
18 - MitD XVIII: It's utterly unreasonable to expect us to have been paying any attention (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?654611)
19 - MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Grey_Wolf_c
2023-11-13, 04:32 PM
Section 2: MitD
Section 2a: Physical Characteristics
AgeMitD's first appearance in SoD happens "29 years ago" (SoD pg. 49). This is measured back from comic 1, so MitD is at least 30 years old.
From his keeper's comments about how long he has been fed stew every day, we know MitD spent more than five years in the circus.
AppearanceMitD's appearance is both disgusting and beautiful, to judge from the reactions of the circus crowd (see 1a SoD Canon). It is ugly enough to provoke vomiting in the stands, but still cause someone to exclaim "And yet... beautiful".
Oona the Beastmaster compares him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html) to a creature out of a spicy meat-induced nightmare, although she also calls him magnificent.
It has been suggested it could be because in 1st edition, an evil creature with CHA -1 had the same CHAR bonus as a good one with CHA 24
BodyRedCloak suggests (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html) that he could use MitD as material to create undead, which suggests he has a physical body (e.g. not a fire elemental)
MitD's ability to laugh (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html) indicates he has lungs
DietFor most of the comic & prequel, MitD was almost constantly hungry (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), thus probably indicating a species that requires food (but it isn't stated).
Take into account:
He is not at all picky about his food, having been shown to eat almost anything ("His palate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) can't be that refined", dibs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) on a moldy cheeseburguer in sock drawer).
He has preference for stew (See SoD, and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html)).
He feels weird to eat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html) babies (including veal), but not adults (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html).
He has eaten scrabble (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) tiles, and apparently didn't find them to his taste (but he was expecting donuts)
Xykon claims he has "read someplace (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1260.html)" that MitD's species considers dwarves a delicacy (MitD disputes this)
As of #1260 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1260.html), MitD claims to not having been as hungry for the last few days ("not like super full, but I'm not starving. It's fine"). There is so far little consensus about the cause, but the following have been suggested as possibilities:
He is lying, not unlike the time he extemporised to stop Xykon from attacking the OotS at the desert; although this sitution feels different - for one thing, MitD doesn't know who these dwarves being offered are, and thus doesn't seem as conflicted about their impending deaths.
He is approaching some kind of developmental stage (like a caterpillar about to cocoon, or in D&D Barghest about to go Greater Barghest)
The caves are sustaining him, just like (presumably) they sustain all other powerful creatures inside them
He is in his species' preferred climate, being shown by his energy consumption being lowered
GenderMitD self-identifies as male, forming clubs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html) that don't allow girls. Also, O-Chul calls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html) him "a good man"
Head
Eyes: MitD has two yellow eyes, next to each other. They are consistently drawn as larger than those of medium-sized creatures, closer to that of ogres (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0215.html) (while still being more or less at medium-sized height, but he might be crouched under the umbrella)
Face: RC makes reference to stabbing him in the face (War and XPs, page 415a)
Mouth: MitD presumably has a mouth, since he has a tongue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) and teeth (that leave toothmarks in a taco in SoD). It must be rather large, since Xykon instructs him to "devour [RedCloak] whole"
Olfactory organ: smells by sniffing while holding the bag close to below his two eyes (but could be his mouth, rather than a nose)
Teeth: munches its food. And its voice is deformed while speaking with its mouth full
LimbsMitD has got stomping (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) ability while holding an umbrella. No specific limbs are identified (feet/paws/tail?), but the use of the verb stomp requires physical limbs, whatever they are. The limbs are also dextrous enough to hold crayons (War and XPs page 415a) and draw (lack of quality may indicate clumsy apendages, or lack of maturity).
Since he was able to both step on and pull on the rope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html) at the same time, he must have or be able to produce at least two limbs, one of which must be prehensile.
He is capable of holding a bucket of paint and a brush on opposite sides of his face, suggesting he probably has two symmetrical prehensile appendages.
In the Earthquake scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), the far-back position of the stomp suggests he is either bipedal but crouched over, or walks in multiple 3+ legs, with some far behind the head's position.
Finally, what is visible in Panel 1 of strip 555 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) is not a limb, but the bucket's handle.
MaturityMitD has consistently acted in very immature fashion, which could be his personality, or it could indicate he is a child of his species.
Take into account:
Oona the Beastmaster believes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html) he will grow bigger
He is over 30 years old (see Age)
He hasn't changed all that much in size or personality since his earliest appearance
Many creatures (including demons and angels) have a really hard time fitting as MitD because of his child-like behaviour.
Rich is unlikely to have him be too young - he dislikes the idea of creatures with the personality of a 4 year old having an alignment. MitD acts more like a 12 year old.
Personal Odor MitD has frequently apologized for his personal odor. This could explain the reaction in the circus, although it would need to address the reason why the odor doesn't affect the public until after he is lighted up.
It has been suggested that MitD's personal smell could be a hint towards the Stench (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troglodyte.htm) ability
SizeSince his first appearance, MitD has fit in a box this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0541.html) size, and under this umbrella (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html). This makes him human-sized or large (http://dnd.wikia.com/wiki/Large). He is also shorter than Oona (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html), who is Medium (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bugbear.htm) sized.
Take into account:
Rich has been known to mess around with sizes of creatures in the comic (Inexplicably large (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0617.html) faeries), but to this date he has only made small creatures larger, never larger ones smaller than they should be.
MitD could be a young member of his race (see Maturity)
Oona the Beastmaster believes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html) he will grow bigger
He's probably taller than a kobold:
Mitd: "I know! Maybe I'm a kobold!"
BlueCloak: "You're pretty tall for a kobold"
MitD: "Maybe I'm two kobolds?"
If you do not object to using templates (see 3a: Templated Creature), the Dungeonbred template can be used to reduce his size by one category, theoretically allowing for huge creatures (but does carry the disadvantages of templates)
SleepMitD has been shown sleeping in various occasions (in SoD, and after O-Chul's and V's teleportation), and has admitted to becoming sleepy, so it is reasonable to assume he requires sleep (but it isn't stated).
WeightRC was able to lift both MitD and his box onto a cart. This is almost certainly an exaggeration of RC's lifting ability for the purposes of moving the plot forwards, but a detailed examination of the issue was attempted starting here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13829249#post13829249). The conclusion reached is that if Rich wasn't bending the rules, and if the box was made of a light wood (such as pine), and RC was using a spell to boost his strength [Divine Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm) gives +6], and he has average or slightly above average strength for a goblin (he is unlikely to have more than that, since he is a pure caster), MitD's weight should be that of a medium creature, tops. (See my numbers here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13842268&postcount=102))
Section 2b: Abilities
AttackMitD attempts to "hit as lightly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) as possible" and still sends both Miko and her horse flying through a wall, off a tower and long distance (the tower is nowhere to be seen, the mountains are far away).
Take into account:
If proposing a "child" or "runt" of a species known for great strength, the dissonance between his undeveloped personality and adult strength needs to be addressed.
See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7838816&postcount=629) a post examining possible ways the punch could have happened by the rules.
DefencesMitD did not notice 5 attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) from Belkar and feels tickles (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) when attacked by Miko.
Take into account:
It could indicate piercing/slashing resistance, DR, high AC, high HP or a combination thereof.
He got a paper cut (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) from trying to eat a letter, indicating he can hurt himself (e.g. overcoming epic resistance, if he himself is epic, or indicating a natural armour that doesn't protect his insides), or Rule of Funny
Miko believes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) he has DR
RC knows he cannot possibly injure MitD by stabbing him in the face (see War and XPs, page 415a)
Earth CrackingMitD cracks the earth by stomping on it.
Suggestions:
Consequence of his great strength: sending horses flying through walls and for kilometers take about as much strength as causing the Earth to crack.
Earthquake ability: like that of an Earth Elemental, or some other specific spell-like ability in that sense such as Wrack Earth (PH2)
KnowledgeEven though MitD displays lack of maturity (see 2a: Maturity), he has displayed flashes of brilliance:
O-Chul's comment he learnt Go! quickly
His ability to tell that a ritual (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html) was only the second half of a whole
His right-on-the-money Political Analysis (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html)
He admits (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) he doesn't actually try to think, and that he lets Xykon and RedCloak think for him
If MitD is psionic, it can be explained by hypercognition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hypercognition.htm)
O-Chul's EscapeWe know from Rich's words (see section 1a) that MitD was responsible for O-Chul's and V's escape (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html).
Suggestions:
Teleportation Spell: in D&D, teleportation requires the spell caster to travel with the targets, and more often than not to be touching the other targets.
Wish: Very few creatures can cast wish, but would explain the situation well. In its favour, MitD is surprised (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html) when his wishes don't come true (but that could be his child personality).
Plane shifting: Many creatures have this spell, but has most of the disadvantages of teleportation, plus O-Chul's and V's escape does not match the effect of plane shift (in that they ended up in the same plane)
See also Section 1b for an in-depth analysis of teleportation options in D&D
Take into account:
MitD may have been hit by V's missed dimension anchor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html), explaining why he didn't go along if it was a teleportation effect.
Plane Shift, in particular, doesn't necessarily affect the caster (it has succesfully been used offensively in OotS)
It has been pointed out that if it were a spell, MitD would have had to say its name out loud, which typically a spell requires (but not an extraordinary, spell-like ability or supernatural ability, nor a psionic power). On the other hand, not all spells have been said out loud in-comic (example: Xykon's mental suggestion in SoD, Redcloak passing his Trial Of Becoming A Hobgoblin with a silent Slay Living), so it doesn't discard a spell either.
Other systems have spells or abilities named "Escape"
PsionicsIt has been suggested that MitD may have psionic abilities since we never see his limbs holding up objects, and as an avenue to explain his other powers. If he only starts to actively use psionics at the time of escape ("unshackling" his mind due to the stress of the situation), it would also tie with Rich's comment about discovering powers deep inside himself (see Section 1a - Rich's Words). Also, it would explain why he tends to be tired after using his powers.
Take into account:
Most psionics featured in the comic (goblin mind reader (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html), the story of the little psion that could (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0494.html) and a guest appearance in SSaDT), had a purplish aura around their entire heads. However, Laurin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0910.html) has a yellow aura. In both cases, though, the aura surrounds the entire head, where MitD, at best, illuminates his eyes briefly.
During the Go game (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html), his turn starts and end, and yet we don't see him place a counter. Rich may have skipped the dialogue where MitD told O-Chul were to place his counter just to reduce the wordiness of that page, though. There is also no psionic effect line like the ones radiating from Laurin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0930.html)
MitD is unaware of most of his powers, which doesn't suggest his mind is making them happen (so it would only explain the escape, if at all).
RedCloak, who knows what MitD is, had to research (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html) if psionics existed in OotS-verse. If MitD is psionic, why was it so difficult to know? (it has been suggested he may have templated psionic ability, and as such his psionics not be part of his species). On the other hand, creatures can be psionic or not depending on the setting. RC could have known about the mind flayer in Dorukan's Dungeon, and still not know if psionic powers did exist.
If MitD wasn't actively psionic until the escape, it would also constitute an explanation: RC tested him for psionic powers and, finding none, couldn't decide if psionics existed or not.
The lack of visible limbs is likely a combination of the minimalistic drawing style of the comic and Rich's desire to not show us what MitD is.
MitD had to tip the circus cage to get to the bucket of stew; presumably a psionic creature could simply levitate the bucket (but MitD may be unaware of his abilities)
The fact that no hand is seen holding the umbrella is a style issue where the hand is behind the object, rather than around it. Belkar holds his daggers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html) in the same way
RainIt has been suggested that MitD could have (inadvertently) caused rain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) to help O-Chul rest
Raising undeadMitD probably does not have the ability to raise undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html), but might be used as raw material. At the very least, he does not have 5 levels of cleric, although it has been pointed out he may have the capability but due to his innocence/incompetence he has never used it, leading RC to believe he cannot without gaining cleric levels first. That said, RC would probably have checked MitD's MM entry, and be aware of all its powers, regardless of which one MitD uses.
SightMitD's sight is keen enough to be able to recognise Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html) on top of a dragon a catapult-max-range away, without the benefit of a telescope, but does not see him until he becomes visible, indicating he does not have natural See Invisible ability
SpeechThe Stereotyped Big Game Hunters were surpised MitD could speak, and in common (see 1b SoD Cannon)
This is usually interpreted as a lampshade: his species can't or won't talk, but Rich changed it for plot purposes.
Alternatively, MitD's species could have been confused with a similar species, which while rare and valuable, is not capable of speech.
Note that the wording could indicate both species incapable of speech, and species that normally wouldn't talk (like Zodars).
It has been pointed out that MitD's speech bubbles are black text on white background, unlike demons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html), who tend to have red-on-black and undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0832.html), who tend to have white-on-black. However, there is one demon who has a normal voice, Sabine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html), so it is probably not a good indicator of species. Rich has confirmed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14733452&postcount=190) that voice "colour" can mislead.
ShoutMitD can shout (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) loud enough that it gives Belkar pause. This may or may not be an actual shout attack, although neither Belkar nor Haley were damaged, but they may have been Shaken, as in Frightful Presence.
Summoning Demon RoachesMitD was not responsible for the Demon Roaches (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0095.html) following team evil - as per SoD, they first attached to Xykon and RC in an evil dinner where Xykon used to get his coffee (in his pre-Lich days). MitD may have attracted more of them, but not the original group. As such, it is unlikely that their presence indicates anything about MitD. That said, the Demon Roaches are 4th-wall breaking rule of funny most of the time, regardless of their origin.
Swallow Whole?In SoD, Xykon orders a mind controlled MitD to devour whole RC if RC double-crosses Xykon. This might indicate that MitD has a swallow whole ability.
Take in account:
Xykon uses the word devour, not swallow, which allows MitD to chew.
Xykon had only just met MitD, and since he isn't interested in reading, he probably would not know what MitD is precisely. Nevertheless, something about MitD (probably a big mouth or similar) suggested to Xykon that MitD would be able to carry out the order.
Section 2c: Other Characteristics
CategoriesMitD cannot belong to any of the following without being an exception to the listed characteristic:
Not a deity (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)
Not Construct (eats, and desires to eat; sleeps)
Not Elemental (eats, and desires to eat; sleeps)
Not Ooze (has a body)
Not Plant (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)
Not Undead (eats, sleeps, etc)
Not Vermin (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)
Several people have remarked that Oona's knowledge of MitD makes it unlikely he is an Outsider - but Oona may have better-than-average knowledge skills from her extended familiarity with Kraagor's Tomb.
Challenge Rating
Rich intends the MitD to be a credible challenge for the heroes - the watchtower scene was included for that reason, as explained by Rich. Since Rich likely has a target level the party will achieve by the time they face MitD, MitD must have a CR at or above this level. As a rule of thumb, CR18 or higher is preferred, Epic levels being better.
See also lothos' analysis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6669234&postcount=795) of MitD's CR
Connection to the Astral PlaneMitD seems to know the Astral Plane's characteristics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html).
Considerations:
He doesn't remember having been there
Xykon is surprised at this
It could be just a successful knowledge roll, or that he was taken there at some point in the past
In the past, it displayed extreme ignorance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0699.html) of the planes
DarknessAs per NCftPB (see section 1a - Published Canon), the darkness that surrounds MitD is magical in its nature. Xykon's instructions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0103.html) imply that they are independent of MitD, since he can step or leap out of them (i.e. leave them behind).
Note that D&D rules for line of sight allow for creatures at the edge of magical darkness to see out of it, while remaining concealed.
Drawing CluesEven though MitD is always in darkness, it has been suggested that by carefully noting the placement of his eyes, and of anything he manipulates, his general shape can be deduced. The general consensus is that he is either walking crouched or has four legs on the floor (from the placing of the stomp (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html)), and that he has a long reach (as when pulling on the rope: 9th panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html)). Take into account that this is debatable, and that MitD has not necesarily been drawn consistently (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0105.html)
Since he can turn his eyes around (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html) (panel 11) without turning his entire body, it is possible that MitD has a neck or similar (such as eyestalks) that can move independently of the rest of the body.
Also, it has been brought up multiple times that the go board is a cryptoclue about MitD. Unfortunately, there is no agreement on what image they show, with people having identified it as Tarrasque, PvP's Skull, a demon, or an 8-bit sprite from some NES game (also, one jokingly suggested it looked like Pepe le Pew due to the color scheme). It is likely a case of pareidolia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia)
EnvironmentThe Stereotyped Big Game Hunters were surprised to find him deep in a rainforest. This discards rainforest as his environment, but leaves everything else open.
FamilyMitD remembers his dad "sort of (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html)" as BIG and even a bigger eater than he is.
Considerations:
MitD could have been "adopted" (or even created) by a member of another species completely, just as he is in the wrong environment. If this adoptive parent is of a different alignment from MitD's base species, it could explain MitD's conflict between good and evil.
MitD is still young and will eventually be as big as he remembers his father to have been
MitD might have a warped mental image of his father, from remembering as "big" when MitD himself was smaller; as such, he may already be as big as his father used to be.
MitD is mixed breed, and his father is larger than he will ever be
Knowledge of MitDMitD is very difficult to identify. Only a few individuals have claimed to know what he is:
The Stereotyped Big Game Hunters (SoD) knew he was "one of those" and that it was surprising he could talk (and in common, even)
RedCloak (SoD) stated he knew what MitD is
Oona (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html) compared him to a majestic monster comparable to a kebab-induced nightmare, but smaller than he could be
O-Chul (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1042.html), after his long imprisonment and friendship with MitD, still needed the help of the most knowledgeable scribe available to the Azurites, and even after that, he only has "a theory" (which he does not think Lien or MitD would believe).
MitD believes Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) also knows what he is, but it's likely Xykon only cares about MitD's strength and looks, rather than detailed knowledge of what MitD can do
What looks like a wizard (SoD) in the circus audience admits he'd never seen anything like it.
It has been suggested that the hunters may have confused MitD with a different, less powerful but similar looking species that nevertheless is still rare. There have been no practical examples of this yet. Stereotypical Big Game Hunters, however, are seldom wrong about their prey.
Mental ResistanceIn SoD (pg.96), Xykon was able to command MitD (as evidenced by MitD's swirly eyes), indicating MitD is not immune to mind-affecting spells.
ReachMitD cannot reach stew or meat left outside his box, but can reach the doors in Kraagor's wall enough to paint them, suggesting his reach is based on free movement rather than long appendages or telekinesis.
SpeciesMitD was declared by the Stereotyped Big Game Hunters to be "one of these", indicating that there are more than one of him.
TracksMitD leaves tracks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html), which Belkar can't identify (but he's a lousy tracker, and even if he wasn't, MitD might have been carrying table, chairs, stuffed animals and a paralized O-Chul at the time, which might have obscured the tracks). However, he leaves no tracks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html) in the snow. The following possibilities have been suggested as an explanation:
He floats/flies
He has some form of permanent pass without trace (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/passWithoutTrace.htm) or water walk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/waterWalk.htm) (note that despite its name, it works on plenty of non-water surfaces, including snow and lava)
The umbrella hides the tracks, in the same way it hides MitD's limbs even when they should be visible (e.g. around the handle) (i.e. it's part of the "we don't get to see any part of MitD until the reveal)
Section 2d: Abilities Augmentation: Templates, Class Levels, etc.A number of ways to increase creatures capabilities to match those shown by MitD have been proposed. All of them have the same general problem: they likely violate Rich's assurance that he didn't invent MitD and that it can be figure out. To illustrate these issues, consider two examples:
BingosaurusThe argument most commonly cited in favour of augmentations is that it is not a Rich creation if Rich merely uses already existing rules to create MitD, such as adding templates, feats, class levels, etc. But there are rules for making your own monsters, spells, etc.
Nothing is stopping Rich from making what is for all intents and purposes a Bingosaurus* complete with an insatiable hunger for stew and yellow eyes, using rules that were published prior to comic #100. He will then furnish it with Bingo's epic earthquake (which functions like a regular earthquake except it is much more awesome and can be aimed in a direction), Wish and Bingo's Commanding You To Stop ability, DC100, at will
*Named after Lord Bingo, original proponent of this counterexample.
Binks' Mystery SwordRelated to the above, the second most common argument in favour of augmentations is that since the rules exist, it can be figured out. By the same logic, a DM could hand a character a custom magic item like Binks' Mystery Sword* and not tell his player what it does because the DM didn't invent it, instead followed the rules, so clearly the player can figure out what it does on his own.
*Named after Binks, original proponent of this counterexample.
The augmentation ideas presented so far are:
FeatsWhen a creature is promoted beyond its base CR, with every 3 HD added, the DM can also add a feat. Of interest to this thread are the two following feats:
Mighty Roar: allows a creature, once per day, to make a dreadful roar that renders everyone nearby shaken for x rounds. Pre-requisite: be an animal or magical beast of at least large size.
Stamp: allows a creature to make a shockwave with a radius of a number of squares equal to their HD. Creatures within the radius that fail a balance check vs the stamper's attack roll are knocked down; structures are also damaged by the shockwave, which could explain the ground being torn up if one is generous with the definition of 'structure'. Prerequisites: have feet, be at least huge size, and have the trample attack.
Cons:
No Wish feat
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since the exact number of extra HD added by "the DM" is not really guessable.
Size issues: MitD is likely Medium sized; while large is possible, huge is likely too big.
MitD is clearly lazy, and thus has little canon support for the idea that he has developed beyond the average of his species (quite the opposite, in fact). His father being bigger than he is also argues against this (more HD eventually makes the monster bigger).
Templated/Mixed lineage Creature
In D&D, a template is not a creature, but rather a number of changes that can be made to any creature meeting the requirements. The changes usually are around a theme. For example, the half-dragon template (applied to creatures with partial draconic parentage) make the creature more draconic, giving it a breath weapon, claws, a bite attack, and some draconic immunities, along with making the creature physically and mentally stronger.
Some templates function more generally, the fiendish template, for example, is used to create races of fauna native to the lower planes, and never originally were the base creature, but instead are a separate (but similar) species. Therefore, not all templates are once-in-a-lifetime combinations fluff-wise (although a half-fiend, half-celestial, half-red, half-blue, half-green, half-silver, fiendish living fireball could hardly be considered anything but a once-in-a-lifetime combination).
More practically, templates can provide practically every ability the MitD has demonstrated (teleportation, strange appearance, physical defenses, great strength, etc). Due to the ability of templates to make practically anything the MitD, this thread has moved away from analyzing specific monster template combinations (of which there are many), and instead will evaluate templates alone as what they could contribute (if there is a published example of a creature with a template, it can be proposed as a creature).
However, templates, like all augmentation, has its drawbacks:
No Wish template before strip #100 (Amidah (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16766329&postcount=994) and other Immortal's Handbook variants came out later)
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since the exact base type and templates use is not really guessable.
Unless the exact combination of templates and base creature has been used elsewhere, it can be argued that an original template stack would be a Rich invention.
Its unlikely that a one-in-a-lifetime combination of templates would be so common that the hunters call it "one of these" (although not all templates require mixed parentage)
No actual evidence of MitD having different species parents (although not all templates require mixed parentage)
Below is a list of templates that can provide abilities the MitD has demonstrated.
Beast of Xvim (Monster Compendium: Monsters of Faerûn)
Summary: A monster blessed by Xvim (and evil god in Forgotten Realms). While it doesn't give any abilities that make it a good candidate to be the MitD, it has a Feed ability similar to that of the Barghest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/barghest.htm) (only increases HD, but the HD increase is uncapped). See the entry on Phrenic Creature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) for how this is useful. The fluff would need to be redone, as Xvim does not exist in OoTSverse, although the Dark One could be a suitable replacement. Has moderate DR that might be able to explain tower scene defenses, although on its own it cannot explain any other scene.
Advances HD by 1 automatically, gains an additional HD per 8 HD of humanoids slain and eaten.
Makes explicit mention of glowing green eyes. The eyes of the MitD glow yellow. With the adaptation to a different god, arguably the appearance like this could be altered.
In any case, there would be some alteration (which could violate the "not Rich's creation" rule) to make a Beast of Xvim without Xvim.
Gives moderate DR (scaled on HD, /+1, +2, or +3, so unclear what would overcome it after upgrade, which could explain tower scene defense.
Can be applied to any creature, although Xvim prefers "bats, black dogs, black cats, hawks, and vultures, or in monsters such as beholders, green or blue dragons, hell hounds, cockatrices, imps, dark nagas, and undead creatures."
Dungeonbred (Dungeonscape)
Summary: Creature was raised in a dungeon and is smaller than normal. Applied to corporeal aberration, animal, magical beast, or vermin. Makes the creature slightly weaker physically. Doesn't explain any scene, but can allow the MitD to fit in the box or under the umbrella.
Rich was involved in the creation of Dungeonscape, and has mentioned working on the template chapter, therefore could be his creation, no real way to be sure.
Essentially gives -4 Strength, so it is harder to fit the tower scene.
Eats less than a normal member of his race, as the MitD eats a lot, not all that good a fit.
Fiendish Creature (SRD/MMI) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fiendishCreature.htm)
Summary: Like normal creature, but native to lower planes. Gets DR/magic, energy resistance, SR, and Smite Good, all scaled with HD. Always evil. Doesn't explain any scenes, although the DR arguably could help provide defenses for Tower Scene (although it is at most 10/magic, so not unlikely Milko would overcome it). Can be applied to corporeal nongood aberrations, animals, dragons, fey, giants, humanoids, magical beasts, monstrous humanoids, oozes, plants, or vermin. Animals and vermin become magical beasts.
Half-Dragon (SRD, MMI, various other books) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm)
Summary: Applied to any corporeal living creature to make it more draconic. Gets breath, claws, bite, and some draconic immunities (paralysis, sleep). Also gets wings if large or larger. Big bonus to Strength (+8), small bonuses (+2) to Con, Int, and Cha. There is a type of half-dragon for practically each type of true dragon, although none of them really do much. The +8 Str means if the base creature's strength is ≥22, it'd have get sufficient tower scene offensive, but other than that, the template doesn't generally help much (there are a bunch of types, it is possible one of them adds something else, if so, bring it up).
Half-Elemental (Manual of the Planes)
Summary: Creature has various elemental traits. Doesn't change appearance much. Gives a number of SLAs based on HD, which mostly don't help (except half-earth, which gives earthquake at 13 HD). Earth and Water give minor boosts to strength. Can be applied to any corporeal creature with an Int of 4+. Changes type to outsider, gives appropriate elemental subtype. With the exception of a minor strength boost (+4 and +2 for earth and water respectively), doesn't allow creatures to explain the big scenes
Half-Troll (Fiend Folio)
Summary: Boosts strength, gives a bit of fast healing, bite attack, claw attacks. Can be added to most types, and changes it to giant. Strength boost (+6). The fast healing (5) arguably could explain the tower scene defense, although somewhat dubious. The changing type away from outsider allows lots of template stacking, if one so desires. Furthermore, half-trolls are pretty ugly, which could explain the circus scene (but what kind of wizard hasn't heard of trolls?).
Monster of Legend (MMII)
Summary: An animal, magical beast, or monstrous humanoid has a divinely appointed task, and special powers to back it up in accomplishing said task. Changes type to outsider (native). They are unique, so all those things kind of make the (seemingly purposeless and lazy) MitD not seem to fit. +10 STR, and can give fast heal 5 and DR 10/+1 as well, which helps the Tower scene. Can get frightful presence, which could explain circus scene, although it is triggered by making "a loud sound (a roar, growl, or other sound appropriate to its form)," hardly what the MitD did.
Paragon Creature (SRD/ELH) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm)
Summary: Generally makes the creature stronger, better faster. Gives fast healing and DR which can explain the tower scene. Boosts ability scores, attacks, damage, AC, saves, skill checks which can qualify an otherwise weaker monster (ex: Genie) as a threat to a near epic-level party. Does not change physical appearance or grant teleportation ability, so cannot explain escape or circus scene. Does not change creature type. Can be added to anything.
+15 Strength allows any base creature with Strength ≥15 meet strength requirement for tower scene offense.
Fast healing 20, DR 10/epic, maximized HP, +15 Con, and +12 HP/HD on top of that (along with +12 luck and +12 insight bonus to AC) can explain the defenses in the tower scene for pretty much anything.
The +25 luck bonus to hit and +20 luck bonus to damage could be argued to be a cause for the MitD "accidentally" hitting a horse through the wall.
There is no real evidence of the MitD being exceptionally competent for a member of his species. In fact, Team Evil seems to think of him as sort of a disappointment. Without saying the MitD is exceptional, there is no real way to convey it is Paragon.
Phrenic Creature (SRD/Expanded Psionics Handbook) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm)
Summary: The creature happens to be psionic. It can be applied to any not mindless creature that doesn't already have the psionic subtype. It provides various PLAs (Psi-like abilities) based off HD. The important thing for the MitD is psionic teleport 3/day (just like normal teleport, but psionic) at 15+ HD, which can explain the escape scene. It does not say it alters appearance (although larger than normal brains is a common trait to denote psionic ability), but probably cannot explain the circus scene, and provides no boosts to physical attack or defense to explain the tower scene.
Gives PLAs, ML=HD. At 15 HD, gives psionic teleport 3/day which serves as an adequate explanation (likely arriving at a "similar area", possibly the MitD originally had a false destination making it more likely.
It has been argued the MitD's eyes glowing with the Escape are more similar to psionics than other magic.
We had no real evidence of the MitD being psionic, and the template makes no physical distinction between the base creature, potentially violating "can be figured out" even more than templates in general.
Pseudonatural Creature (SRD/ELH) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/pseudonaturalCreature.htm)
Summary: Makes the creature a cosmic horror. Explains circus scene with alternate form. It can fit tower scene for ~90% of proposed candidates (Strength ≥8), but can't explain the escape. Can be applied to any corporeal creature. Makes the creature an Outsider (extraplanar)
Can be added to any corporeal creature.
Gives +22 strength, at least 35 natural armor, and DR/epic scaling with HD. This allows pretty much any creature with over 8 strength to fit the tower scene (although the more HD initially, the better).
Has an alternate form specified to be "a grotesque, tentacled mass (or another appropriately gruesome form)," which can explain the circus scene. Alternate form imposes morale penalty on attacks against the monster, but nothing huge like dying of fright or confusion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html).
Does not provide explanation for the Escape (its Dimensional Door ability has a range of 1200 ft).
Radiant Creature (DR321)
Summary: Creature native to the "plane of radiance." Gets DR/magic and fast healing 2 (while in light), which kind of poorly explains defenses in tower scene. Gives some light-based SLAs (nothing we've seen the MitD use). Main draw is dazzling aura (dazzles creatures within 30 ft that fail a will save) to explain the circus scene. Boost to charisma (+6) might make it more beautiful. Strobe lights can cause dizziness and other such things, so that could explain why some people had a negative reaction. The template can be added to any Aberration, Animal, Dragon, Fey, Giant, Humanoid, Magical Beast, or Monstrous Humanoid, and changes type to outsider.
Proposed combinations:
The Adversary (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Illithid#Legends): a illithid merged via "faulty ceremorphosis" with a powerful sorcerer.
Half-giant war troll of legend
Half-Earth Elemental Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque
Baby Awakened Fiendish Half-Efreeti Tarrasque
Paragon!something
Phrenic Ephemeral Hangman
Phrenic Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque Wilder 1
Phrenic Tarrasque Wilder 1
Half-Orc Half-Dragon
Radiant Phrenic Half-Earth Elemental Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7590835&postcount=200)
Pseudonatural Phrenic Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10319127&postcount=1349)
Pseudonatural greater barghast servitor of the Dark One
Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) Phrenic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) Pseudonatural (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/pseudonaturalCreature.htm) Tauric Werewolf Lord Hybrid Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm#WerewolfLord)/Chimeric Giant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-giant-cr-1) Giant Shadow Awoken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm) Bonsai aka Potted Plant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15747023&postcount=236)
Pimp my Tarrasque
Given the huge number of such combinations suggested for the Tarrasque, this approach is also known as Pimp my Tarrasque:
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w130/superbongos/pimptarrasque.jpg
Class Levels Only useful to explain the escape scene, it suggests MitD has 18+ class levels of Sorcerer, which would allow him to cast wish even if the base creature normally wouldn't (assuming it has at least 19 CHA).
Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since MitD has not shown any other spell from those 18 levels
It is unexplained how MitD would even gain 18 levels, given his general lazyness
It would require MitD to have forgotten he gained those levels ("discovers powers that he didn't even know he had")
Proposed class levels:
18 levels of sorcerer would give him access to wish.
2 levels of fighter with the alternate class feature Dungeoncrasher might be used to explain the tower scene (although he would have had to rush Miko and her horse, which doesn't quite fit the "hit lightly" rule he himself imposed).
ReincarnationThis idea suggests that MitD used to be a powerful spellcaster (level 18 or more) that dies and used a Reincarnation spell to reincarnate as a rare animal.
Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since there has been no mention of the possibility of reincarnation in the comic, and it would make figuring out what MitD almost impossible
AbominationIt has been claimed that there is a way for Rich to create his own abomination. Some abomination traits are similar in their description to MitD's eating habits.
Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words
Almost certainly violates the "didn't create it" clause in Rich's words
Abominations are immune to mind control
PsychicFrom a third-party book published just months before strip 100, if offers a number of powers similar to teleport and others, except using "psychic powers".
Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since MitD has shown no psychic abilities, and if he did, they are too easily confused with psionics
Unbridled ShapeshifterBy RAW, a shapeshifting creature can gain a large number of abilities by successive shapeshifting into the correct creatures, gaining their magical powers and access to ways to make those changes permanent. The ur-example of this is Pun Pun, the shapeshifting all-powerful kobold. Combined with some form of convenient amnesia you could create a creature very much like MitD, no matter what powers MitD turns out to posses.
Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a)
Rich has been very outspoken about his views on this kind of shapeshifting, including a series of articles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172910) on how to fix it.
Demon Lord (Book of Vile Darkness)As per BoVD, demon lords each have a unique look and a unique set of abilities. While a few examples are given (such as Demogorgon, a demon prince), they are explicitly by no means exhaustive. The proposed demon lord, as such, fits the big scenes in whatever way we wish.
Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a)
Demons may or may not have parents in OotS (general cosmology used doesn't have them, but the demon summoned by Qarr claimed to have one - but he was under the Despair spell, and therefore his idea of being a disappointment to his father might have been spell-induced)
Demon Lords are embodiments of their respective Evil plains, and as per Rich's words on the topic, should not be able to change their moral position more than slightly - nowhere near the range demonstrated by MitD (see section 1e)
Worm that walks (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/wormThatWalks.htm)A template not unlike Xykon's litch that allows a powerful spellcaster to avoid death by becoming a mass of worms
Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a)
MitD does not act like a powerful spellcaster that has escaped death
Does not give the spellcaster massive strength; cannot really explain the Tower without some strength-boosting spell MitD would have no reason to cast in a "hit lightly" game
Grey_Wolf_c
2023-11-13, 04:35 PM
Section 3: Proposed Ideas
Section 3a: Suggestions that Fit the Big Scenes (FBS)This category groups ideas that fit the clues in the major scenes of MitD, with the following characteristics (as per thread consensus):
1) Has a plausible explanation for the Escape
2) Has a plausible explanation for the Tower (both his attack and his defence)
3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus (both his act, and the reactions)
4) Isn't one of the impossible categories (see section 2c - categories) (unless it is an exception)
5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich.
6) Size/strength requirement (unless suggestion does not depend on strength for the above explanations)
Up to Huge: 30 STR
Gargantuan: 38 STR
Colossal: 46 STR
Colossal +: 54 STR
7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects (SoD)
The proposals may still have other objections (such as that the above explanations require stretching the rules of D&D).
Hagunemnon (Protean) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hagunemnon.htm) (SRD or ELH 196)Pros:
Great strength (53)
Access to Planar Travel through convenient partial shapeshift into e.g. Umbral Blot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/umbralBlot.htm), which includes greater teleport
As a psionic creature, it may have been converted by the means described in the Expanded Psionics handbook, which would give him psionic teleport
adequate size
his shapeshifting sounds disturbing, but has 34 CHA.
Despite being capable of speaking any language, Proteans normally speak only ever-evolving language impossible for any non-protean to understand, thus being surprising it talks in common.
Its psionic ability to detect thoughts would explain his knowledge of the ritual, probably having heard RC's thoughts on the subject.
Fluff implies there are protean newborns, so presumably they have some form of parentage ("Even newborns are tides of flesh, ever changing")
Cons:
Plane shift doesn't fit well with the escape as shown (see 1b: The Escape), and while greater teleport fits slightly better, it requires a timely shapeshift into the exact appropriate creature. There is no evidence that psionic-class creatures have been converted as per EP handbook.
Its constant shapeshifting has not been reflected in a change of MitD (mouth and eyes stay roughly the same), and is specially an issue while he sleeps, since he likely cannot spend actions to keep a face then (however, see this essay (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24290445&postcount=1195) giving plausible story reasons why MitD might want to keep his eyes steady, and he might be faking sleep, or his eyes are not visible at all when he sleeps and the lines drawn are for visual communication only)
Schlock Mercenary's Carbosilicate Amorph (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/)Pros:
Can interface with a teraport to teleport (although it is not clear how he'd know where to send them)
Incredible strength and fighting abilities. Invulnerable to anything short of plasma weapons.
Looks like a pile of poo
Endearing and adorable
Fits under the umbrella easily, but his dad could have been bigger if he had eaten recently
Famous for his unbridled appetite.
As per Shining Wrath's Weak Carbosilicate Amorphic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21046037&postcount=132) principle, "If MitD is in fact a Carbosilicate Amorph, it is because Rich has brought Carbosilicate Amorphs into OotSverse, and therefore they are as recognizable as any other monster of similar rarity"
Rich could probably secure copyright from Howard Tayler, since they are friends (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19691244&postcount=115)
Cons:
Rich probably wouldn't use a science fiction character from another comic in his fantasy comic.
Slaad (ELH 217)White/Black slaads only.
Pros:
Very strong, epic defences
Can teleport others
Disgusting appearance (humanoid toad)
Not inmune to mind-affecting spells
White one is Large. Black is Huge.
Cons:
Tricky reproduction cycle means black/white slaads are unlikely to have a "father" (unless it is of the foundling variety).
MitD would have to be over 300 years old, having evolved through green, grey and death slaad varieties. This does not mesh well with his mental characteristics. (unless Rich has bent the reproduction flavor text)
It may be Product Identity (listed as such in d20.org, but not in the WotC legal documentation).
Even if it is, it may not be impossible for Rich to use it for free, unlike trademarked creatures.
Can talk common, and thus wouldn't surprise the hunters that he can talk.
It may be too recognisable as a humanoid toad to fit the wizard's comment in the circus scene.
Uvuudaum (https://web.archive.org/web/20170102222135/http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/epicNonAbominations.html)Pros:
greater teleport available 3 times a day as an SLA explains the escape
very high strength (39), is very ugly but has extremely high charisma (46)
large bonuses to knowledge:arcana and spellcraft explains understanding of the ritual
Large size, so fits in the box, and doesn't need for MitD to be much smaller than adult to fit under the umbrella
Normally communicates with telepathy, not by speaking, so it's surprising it talks.
A confusion aura could explain reactions in the circus, particularly if it's weakened by MitD being a youngster of the species.
Cons:
Unclear where (or if) it has eyes or mouth, since it has a spike for a head. "[T]he taillike appendage replacing what would be the head on a normal creature. At the very end of the appendage is an ironhard spike." (ELH pg. 225) (emphasis mine). It even has blindsight, strongly suggesting it has no eyes.
His confusion aura should give everyone missing saves around him swirly eyes, but no such thing is visible in the circus scene.
Xenocrysth (Hyperconscious: Exploration in Psionics)Pros:
Strength 43, High AC, DR
Psionic Teleport, and ability to read minds, which would allow him to pick up the destination from V's mind
Unusual appearance
Telepathic, so surprising one chooses to talk rather than "impart their thoughts directly into the mind of those with whom they wish to communicate"
Cons:
More terrifying than vomit-inducing appearance
No legs to stomp with, but the end of its tail does have a mace-like protrusion that could have been used instead
Gargantuan, although a very small gargantuan by size (30 ft in length, is actually shorter than the minimum). MitD can be argued to be a mere 25% of its standard size (two categories), which even with hefty strength penalties would still make him quite strong
Fluff suggests they are formed from psionic nightmares, rather than through reproduction, but it is vague hearsay, and possibly wrong ("Sages believe that xenocrysths have slipped from a lucid dream of the Dark Plea[...] the Dark Plea’s progeny continue to squirm forth, birthed from the foulest nightmares of powerful psionic creatures")
Hard to reconcile with RC's difficulty in establishing if psionic rules are in place in OotS, since a Xenocrysth comes from a psionic manual, although it could be that its Catapsi Leech ability was impeding any other psionic's from properly demonstrating their abilities to RC.
Section 3b: Frequently Proposed Ideas
These ideas have been frequently brought up, but they fail in a major way that presents a significant problem. If you are considering them, please address the problem listed in your initial post.
DeityFirst, note that "a god" is not a specific proposal. There are hundreds to pick from, many with wildly different capabilities. Furthermore:
If they have D&D stats, they will have Divine Ranks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#divineCharacteristics), which automatically gives them immunity to mind control (see Section 2c: Categories). This applies even to demigods (rank 1-5).
They can speak every language - unsurprising they can talk
Why would the SBGH think there is a market in selling deities?
Any deity RC would consider appropriate for his team (Evil/Neutral ones) can Animate Dead, or copy it through Miracle.
GrueCan challenge any lone adventurer, has insatiable appetite and sparse descriptions mention it being horrible. However, it wouldn't desire to be lighted as MitD does, and it is not known to have magic (e.g. teleportation). Note that MitD has enjoyed being in the light before joining team evil, both in the jungle and specially in the circus, and has never shown any discomfort from being in the light (see section 1a - Published Canon)
Pun-Pun & FamilyPun-Pun isn't really something that can be classified as "one of those", and it seems likely that Rich made a joke of this idea when MitD suggested he might be a kobold, only to be told he's to tall for a kobold
Rich "The Giant" Burlew
Rich does not fit any of MitD's characteristics - neither physical (e.g. great strength), nor mental (e.g. personality), nor supernatural (e.g. teleportation powers). Claims that he could give himself the powers needed because he is the author are effectively accusations that MitD is a Mary Sue (unfounded), but also if that were the case, it would be something Rich invented for the story.
A frequent defence is that OotS people would react poorly to people from our world, but we have seen RL people in the comic, and they are stickified, so Rich would not fit the circus scene. Claims that he'd retain his RL nose are baseless, and furthermore the reactions to noses in-comic do not match the circus scene anyway. Rich is also a vegetarian, while MitD eats meat
Snarl jrProbably the #1 proposed idea, the "son-of-Snarl" has a major problem: it does not match Rich's words that MitD is a monster someone else (i.e. not him) invented (see Section 1a: "it isn't something I just made up for the story" & "I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually"). Snarl has also not displayed any form of teleportation magic, nor any particular appetite (except maybe for souls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1139.html), although it could equally be a figure of speech of the destruction it brings to mortals), nor need to sleep.
Furthermore, Snarl has been kept a major secret - it's unlikely that the hunters would know, or that they have seen so many Snarl Jr.s running around they can talk about not having seen "one of these".
Tarrasque (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm) (SRD or MM 240)Tarrasque is an iconic creature, famed for eating a lot and sleeping a lot. Unfortunately, there is no particular reason to think that MitD is an iconic creature, and Tarrasque brings several other issues to the table, the most important of which is its lack of teleportation/wishing abilities. Other issues: Tarrasque is traditionally unique and non-reproducing (not part of a species) and far bigger than can fit under an umbrella.
Section 3c: Copyrighted IdeasAll ideas listed here, regardless of how well they fit, have a major problem: they are trademarked, or otherwise unavailable for Rich's use due to legal issues (see Section 4a: Inappropriate Topics)
Black Mage (Final Fantasy)
Boggart (Harry Potter)
Claydol(Pokemon™)
Danica (Star Power)
Diawolf
Domo-kun (NHK)
Father (KND)
Godzilla & pals (Godzilla)
Goku (Dragon Ball)
Gozer (Ghostbusters)
Haggunenon (HHGTTG)
Heffalump(Winnie the Pooh)
IT (Stephen King's IT)
Jason Asano (From He Who Fights With Monsters)
Kirby(Kirby)
Lord Ochu (FinalFantasyX)
Mario (Super Mario Brothers)
Meatwad (Aqua Teen Hunger Force)
My Little Pony(My Little Pony)
Pervect (MYTH Adventures)
Plastic Man (DC Comics)
Q (from Star Trek)
Rawhead Sidhe (Dresden Files)
Red Mage (Final Fantasy)
Roger Rabbit (Who framed Roger Rabbit?)
Snorlax (Pokemon™)A great fit, since:
"They can throw incredibly powerful punches and cause immense earthquakes",
is known for its huge appetite (including his ability to eat moldy food) and its sleeping.
It grows from a much smaller pokemon, Munchlax, and fits in the box as an adult (6' 11'').
Using Metronome, it could have a plot-casuality induced access to "escape from battle" abilities.
When not drawn anime style, pokemons can be downright disturbing (non-Snorlax example (https://web.archive.org/web/20200716232110/https://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/stg.ign.com/2012/10/druddigon_RJPalmer.jpg)).
When you fight a static-encounter Snorlax in the games, if you do not capture it, when the fight ends the game text tells you that it has 'stomped off back to the mountains.'
Has Fissure as an egg move, whose in-game description reads: 'The user opens up a fissure in the ground and drops the foe in. The target instantly faints if it hits.' (picture (https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:Fissure_VII.png))
Shadow (Babylon 5)
Shadowchild (Digger)
SMT3 and Persona 3 and 4 (Megami Tensei)
Skull (PvP)
Skywarp (Transformers)
Tonberri (Final fantasy)
Vatch (Witches of Karres)
Vorlon (Babylon 5)
Weeping Angel (Dr. Who)
Wile E. Coyote (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24577709&postcount=488) (Looney Tunes)
Ygramul (Neverending Story)
Yoshi (Super Mario Brothers)
Zoidberg (Futurama)
Section 3d: Light-Hearted Ideas
These ideas are not meant to be taken seriously, and were added to this post only because they amused me enough I wanted them recorded for posterity. Please don't read too much into them (or what they say about my sense of humour)
Inmune to blades, including scissors, but suffers from papercuts? Must be a Rock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock-paper-scissors)
The most dangerous box ever (https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/2178863360/h9D2EAC6A/)
The fearsome Gazebo (http://www.brunchma.com/archives/Forum13/HTML/000133.html)HotAndCold (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=48090) explained (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7390002&postcount=1344):
A gazebo is obviously a powerful monster, devouring the story's PC without any chance of rebuttal.
It takes no damage from a +3 arrow, just as MitD apparently takes no damage from Miko's or Belkar's attacks.
Would you recognize a gazebo's tracks?
Or expect to find one in a jungle and even speaking in Common, for that matter?
It is, of course, a juvenile gazebo, explaining its roughly Medium size, rather than its being large enough for, y'know, people to hang out in it.
I... guess he could be a particularly ugly gazebo? Although technically speaking, the gazebo's never actually described in the story beyond its dimensions, color, and the pointiness of its top. So I guess one could argue the gazebo's horrific appearance.
The description states that the PC "awakened" the gazebo, implying that it was sleeping. Perhaps it had recently used one of its mighty and tiring abilities!
A FanboyTruly grotesque creatures, Fanboys have been known to consume vast quantities of whatever they get their hands on (including mouldy cheeseburgers), while skulking in the darkness of their 'boxes'. When inserted into fantasy fiction, they often wield great quantities of inexplicable power (Mary Sue Syndrome) and have difficulty remembering minor plot details (Gate? What gate?) They are truly the most fearsome creature any Creator can face, and yet are beautiful in that a Creator would be nothing without them. And of course, the monstrous and twisted exterior hides an innocence ill-befitting a horrendous beast, and a niceness of character little understood by those around, often causing them to be bullied by lesser souls in the vicinity.
We are all MitD in the quiet corners of our souls.
Grey_Wolf_c
1) How did Grey_Wolf_c punch Miko and her horse through a wall?
- She suggested a Tarrasque should be added, and her horse said Snarl Jr. An adrenaline-fueled rage took over.
2) Why didn't Miko or Belkar's weapons hurt Grey_Wolf_c ?
- Maintaining these threads has made him impervious to pain.
3) Why wouldn't a wizard recognize Grey_Wolf_c ?
- Keeping up with the thread means he doesn't have time to keep up his appearance so looks like a human-sasquatch mix wearing clothing.
4) Why would humans become nauseous at seeing Grey_Wolf_c ?
- No time to shower either.
5) How did Grey_Wolf_c teleport V and O-Chul to the beach with Hinjo?
- Well, you got me there.
The GiantNo, not that Giant, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?14856-The-Giant) this Giant (http://photos.imageevent.com/supplex55/supplex55vintagenwawcwpromophotos/95%20giant) Former WCW World Champion. Latterly The Big Show, and played by Paul Wight.
An actual fairy-tale Giant, a wild-haired mountain-savage, who wrestled in World Championship Wrestling from 1995 to 1999, and was booked as the son of the late Andre The Giant (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Andre_in_the_late_'80s.jpg).
1) The Escape: Can The Giant teleport?... Bizarrely enough, yes. The Giant debuted in 1995 in World Championship Wrestling as part of the 'Dungeon Of Doom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dungeon_of_Doom)' stable, portraying a similar role that the MITD has in OOTS. The powerful dragon controlled by 'The Taskmaster' Kevin Sullivan (http://lzimages.lazygirls.info/dungeon_of_doom_the_taskmaster_kevin_sullivan_HD7S 58BQ.sized). In this role, he actually could teleport. And teleported to and from the titular 'Dungeon of Doom.'
2) The attack and defense portrayed in the tower scene: At Halloween Havok 1995 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween_Havoc#1995), he attacked Hulk Hogan on the roof of the Cobo Arena in Detroit. He fell from the roof of a 12,000 seater stadium straight to the concrete parking lot below, and not only lived to tell the tale, but wrestled later that night. Talk about damage reduction. As for attack? Well... He's been showed to flip cars and throw "350 Pounds, solid steel ring-steps" in his time... I think you'd need at least a Strength of 28 to do that last one if you had the Hulking Hurler Prestige Class's ability 'Really Throw Anything.' He's choke-slammed two large men at once, in real life, where the men are resisting, rather than helping you lift them up, that's basically dead-lifting around 500 pounds at once.
Also, he beat Hulk Hogan. No one beats Hulk Hogan. Ever. Seriously. Because Hulk Hogan is an arrogant, selfish old c-... Never mind.
3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus: He's been portrayed as gross, scary, impressive and interesting. And plenty of people paid to watch him.
4) Isn't one of the impossible categories: He's definitely a humanoid.
5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich: Debuted on US TV in 1995
6) Size no bigger than Huge: Only seven foot tall, 484 or so pounds.
7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects: Yup.
8) Smaller and eats less than his father: He was portrayed as the son of Andre The Giant (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/13/135089/4673684-5125271151-Andre.png) a seven foot four, 520 pound man who is said to have consumed 7,000 calories a day in wine alone.
9) Small, but will get much bigger: The Big Show is significantly fatter now than he was when he was known as The Giant.
10) Could he eat Redcloak whole?: Well... He has the appetite of a Giant, soon after his debut, he became tremendously fat, and since he was booked as a literal Giant, a mountain-dwelling savage from 'Parts Unknown,' he probably isn't above eating moldy cheeseburgers.
11) 'Wouldn't expect to see on of these here [In The Jungle]': You wouldn't expect to bump into a wrestler in a jungle... Well, you wouldn't! Would you? I wouldn't!
12: Surprised he can speak, and in common?: Weirdly enough, despite speaking English very well, the interviewers and commentators would often pretend that they couldn't tell what The Giant was saying, kind of like Stewie in Family Guy.
Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Young Adult Green Dragon
The MitD is a green dragon that also has five different green dragon ancestors in his family, so he has five instances of the Half-Dragon template.
Pros:
Template combination is guessable, because it's not unusual for the Stickyverse. Half-dragon hybrids are common: Girard is half-dragon, Enor is half-dragon ogre, Durkon's parents fought a half-dragon troll. The ancient black dragon says in #628 that she's expected that her son invites "that nice green dragon girl", showing that green dragons sometimes interbreed with dragons. #555 has a joke about a half-orc half-orc orc.
63 strength to explain tower scene.
Two claw attacks for 1d6 damage and a bite attack of 1d8 damage, weaker than the attacks of an ordinary young adult green dragon. Lets Miko and horse survive tower scene.
36 natural armor, 25 base armor class, 5/magic DR explains why Belkar's and Miko's attacks fail. Half-Dragon template says "Natural armor improves by +4" so the bonus from multiple instances will stack.
"Elongated features […] and exaggerated teeth and claws" and "more formidable" both stacked five times to explain circus scene. The wizard in circus has seen green dragons, but not one with such grotesque features. He's just the kind of misshapen mutant that a freak show wants to show off. Xykon finds him ugly.
Misshapen features explain why Belkar can't recognize his tracks.
Overly long claws and 10 dexterity makes it difficult to pull the rope.
People can still recognize that he is a dragon, explaining "one of these".
29 intelligence, 19 wisdom, and 29 charisma, may have skills in Bluff and Knowledge. That is why he can bluff Xykon once he actually starts to think, and recognize the half a ritual.
Large size to fit in box.
Can fly, which is how he can get up to the entrances higher up in the mountain without leaving a trace.
Dragons grow as they age, which explain that MitD's father was BIG.
Two eyes.
Not immune to mind affecting effects.
Con:
Doesn't explain escape scene.
Grey_Wolf_c
2023-11-13, 04:43 PM
Section 3: Continued
Section 3e: Proposed ideas
Ideas that have been proposed, but cannot explain all major MitD scenes (See 3a)
Aboleth Mage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/aboleth.htm)Pros:
28 Strength
Effective caster level 10th would allow him to have teleport
Appearance: "The aboleth is a revolting fishlike amphibian" but charisma 14 could count as "beautiful" for someone that isn't too nauseated by fish-like beings
Can only speak languages that are used underwater - would be surprising to hear him speak out of the water, and in common no less.
Very rare to be found outside of their natural environment (water)
Grows bigger as it ages - father would be bigger than MitD
Eating creatures gives him their memories, which would explain why he doesn't like to eat babies (no memories - bland and boring food) and why he likes stew (he never knows what he's going to get, it's a big surprise!)
Cons:
This creature could be considered the "almost" FBS suggestion.
Strength is almost to the 30 used as rule of thumb for the tower scene, but not quite there
Huge, almost small enough to fit in the box - and if made any smaller by age or template, he'd be too weak
CR17 is almost to the rule of thumb expected power level
3 eyes - almost the right amount - vertically stacked.
Study-based spellcasting is a poor fit for MitD, who is never seen studying spells
Akvan Div Prince (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary3/div.html)Too tall. probably not ugly enough. Might be too recent.
Alhoon (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Alhoon)Undead, not strong enough
Anaxim (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#anaxim) (SRD or ELH 158)Construct, no teleportation.
Andeloid (http://www.lomion.de/cmm/andeloid.php)Can absorb the powers of other creatures, virtually explaining everything with the right set of creatures, but seems unlikely that MitD has had a chance to do so
Angel of DecayUndead
Astral DragonToo big when powerful enough (if it ever is powerful enough - top strength of 24 is insufficient); too weak when the right size. Too recognisable due to being a dragon for it to fit the circus scene. Fluff about staying a child until mating does fit MitD.
Astral Dreadnaught (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/crypt/astral_dreadnaught.htm)only one eye, gargantuan, can't explain the escape
Asura (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Asura_%283.5e_Creature%29) (high CR homebrew)Can cause earthquake, looks weird. Can't explain the escape. Unsurprising to hear it speak in common. Too many eyes.
Athasian Nightmare Beast (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20077752&postcount=944)
Pros:
30 Strength
Psionic teleport
Fairly ugly and unique
CR18, decent defences
Dominated by its voracious appetite, can eat anything
Despite spell-like abilities and intelligence appears to have no listed languages or even forms of communication
Cons:
Posted publicly a few months after MitD's decision, but the author could have sent an advance copy to other designers, such as Rich. Elanfanforlife tracked down the author (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25964760&postcount=658) and he claims to NOT have sent it to anyone in advance, and indeed not having sat on the design for any length of time, which would make the design postdate MitD. Post no longer exists. Closest official version (http://www.athas.org/products/loa) (Legends of Athas beta pdf) Jasdoif could find is gargantuan, and from 2008
Atropal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#atropal) (SRD or ELH 159)Undead: doesn't eat or sleep.
Audrey IINot that ugly (people flock to see it), unclear if it can teleport others/grant wishes (up for interpretation), unclear if its strength is sufficient to punch people through walls and send them flying.
Bauhei (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?66577-Creature-Catalog-new-3-5-conversions/page39&p=4301770#post4301770)Unclear if it can be called "one of these". Doesn't fit the circus scene (awe doesn't induce vomiting)
Aurumach RilmaniToo humanoid looking to fit the circus scene.
Baku (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=643)28 STR, probability travel works as teleport or a critical roll, fairly unrecognisable. However, also not specially disgusting looking.
Barghest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/barghest.htm) (SRD or MM 22)Pros:
Eats a lot, and gets stronger as he eats (reference (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html))
Greater Barghest has dimension door
Cons:
Not really all that strong, (max 20)
No earthquake ability
Dimension door doesn't explain the escape well
can speak (but not in common)
Black Troll (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=506)Large, ugly as every troll, but looking demonic on top. Can cast Teleportation without error, explaining the escape (but not what the hell a troll is doing with that spell and 10 INT and CHA). Unfortunately, not quite strong enough.
Brachyurus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/brachyurus.htm) (SRD or ELH 170)Strong and relatively ugly, but can't explain the escape
Brainstealer DragonOld ones are strong and have spells that can explain the escape, but are too big to fit in the box. Young ones that do fit are too weak. All of them can explain the circus scene. Published a year after strip #100
Braxat (MM2 37)Not particularly strong, CR9 and can only explain the escape with Dimension Door.
Brood Keeper (MM3) Can't explain the escape, the fear aura doesn't fit the circus scene, too big, not strong enough. Rich may have had a hand in their creation.
Bigfoot Very strong, presumed ugly even though no-one ever manages to see him. However, no magic, and thus doesn't explain the escape.
Bulette (Land Shark)Can't explain the escape.
CerebrilithCan´t explain the escape. Insufficient Strength
Centaur (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/centaur.htm) (SRD or MM 32)Not strong enough, can't explain the earthquake, the tower scene, the circus scene or the escape.
Cherub (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=1478) (four-faced version)Pros:
Strength of 36.
"four-sided head with the faces of a lion, ox, eagle, and man," which can be disgusting
Wish as an SLA, easily explains the escape
Has earthquake as a power, could explain the stomp.
Large size
Can be advanced to gargantuan, meaning that MitD's "father" could be either another larger cherub who was raising him or just a god specifically.
Strange to find a cherub in a rainforest.
Cons:
Like most angelic hosts and demonic armies, it is hard to understand how it went unrecognised in the circus act - most people would have heard of them at their religious service of choice.
OotS Cherubs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html) don't look like that.
Four sets of eyes
Unsurprising it can talk common (can talk all languages)
SBGH would probably not likely sell divine beings into slavery
Immune to mind-affecting spells and abilities.
Doesn't really fit with why Xykon and Redcloak expect him to be "scary" and eat children
Chi You (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi_You)Vaguely defined. Weird looking, but not particularly revolting. Can speak.
ChichimecNo explanation for the escape
ChronotyrynLarge, and can teleport, but has low Str (26), isn't particularly revolting-looking (it's a bird with arms) and not surprising it can speak ("dual voice").
CildabrinInsufficient strength, no explanation for the escape
Cipactli (Dragon #317)Colossal creature that causes earthquakes by stomping. No Escape and weak Circus explanation. No manipulator limbs.
Coco, elCreature from Spanish mythology that hides in the shadows and eats (misbehaving) children. Unclear if he is strong enough, probably can't teleport, and both the shadow hiding and children eating are the opposite of MitD's
CoeurlCR4, nowhere near powerful enough. Can't explain the escape
Concordant Killer (MM4)Created too late to be MitD. Not strong enough. Can't explain the escape
Corpse Tearer Linnorm (MM2 141)Strong and with access to miracle, but only through cleric spells, which would give him Animate Dead, which MitD is known not to be able to cast
Couatl (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/couatl.htm)Cannot explain the escape (caster level not high enough) the tower or the circus (not particularly revolting). CR10, nowhere near powerful enough. Since it has cleric abilities, should be able to help RC
Crypt ThingUndead, can't explain the tower scene. Unclear how someone could claim not to have seen a human skeleton before. Unsurprising it can talk
CrystalleCan cast Wish, but limited since the ioun stone has limited charges. STR 33. Cons: appearance not particularly disgusting; Elemental: doesn't eat or sleep.
Dao (MoP 172)aka "earth genie". Pros:
Can grant wishes
Can cast earthquake
Has a "shove" ability to push enemies
Cons:
Unsurprising it can talk
CR6, little strength, no defences
Not unusually ugly
Unclear how father would be "bigger and hungrier"
Deus Ex Machina personifiedWould be a Rich creation
DisenchanterNot strong enough, cannot explain the escape, not powerful enough to be Xykon's Ace in the Hole.
Displacer Beast (MM 60)Can't explain the escape, not strong enough
Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm) (SRD or MM 68 + most MMs)Pros:
Decent defences
they like to eat and sleep
Cons:
They don't get the kind of strength and powers needed until they are way too big for the box.
They are very recognisable, and thus don't match the circus' reactions.
Draknor (http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=1061)Sprouts from the ground, but we have seen MitD in high floors of towers.
DraedenLudicrously large (1,000ft per HD), would not fit in the box. Can raise the dead
Dread Linnorm (MM2 141)Pros:
Huge Strength
Wish (Sorcerer Levels)
Ugly (with high Charisma)
Cons:
Colossal - requires him to be a runt, which brings problems re: high-level spell access
Two Heads - requires a reason why it lost one (e.g. decapitation)
Immunity to all spells of the enchantment school
Dream Larva (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#dreamLarva) (SRD or ELH 161)Pros:
Worst Nightmare ability explains circus' reactions (as long as it is a 'young' dream larva, so that it is not immediately lethal)
Very strong (42), high CR, defences and DR
Dreamscape allows teleportation, with a certain amount or rules bending (see here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7485816&postcount=77) for an explanation)
Cons:
Immune to mind-affecting effects
Dreamscape doesn't explain the escape all that well
Not known for its appetite, or its need to sleep
Unclear if a young dream larva can even exist, and would be less lethal than an adult one.
Earth Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm) (SRD or MM 97)Unstated how it would cause the escape, it cannot provide material for undead
EfreetNot powerful enough in D&D, regardless of how powerful they were in the original mythology
Empyrean5e monster, and therefore published way too late for MitD
Enveloper (1e FF)Insufficient strength, it's main ability of absorbing powers (thus explaining the escape scene), would also give MitD knowledge that would be at odds with his known naïvety and ignorance. Difficulty explaining the circus scene.
Ephemeral Hangman (ToM 161)Pros:
Looks like a mass of black tentacles centered around a large maw and a trunklike body.
Large, but when in darkness or shadowy illumination, it can fit into spaces that appear too small for it
The base species prefers eating children "and others too small and weak to fight back"
Cons:
Can't explain the escape scene
Probably too weak: CR7, STR 22
Epic Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonepic.htm) (SRD or ELH 181)Pros:
Have access to Wish
Very strong
Like most dragons, it likes to eat and sleep
Cons:
They don't get the kind of strength and powers needed until they are way too big for the box.
Beautiful (sp. prismatic)
They are very recognisable, and thus don't match the circus' reactions.
Essence ReaverPublished in 2007, too late for MitD.
Fhoimoren GiantNo explanation for the escape. Weak defences.
Fiendwurm (MM2 99)strong and known for eating constantly, can't talk, can send people to the Abyss, but that explains the escape very badly if at all, and lack of limbs and gargantuan size are problematic.
Fihyr, Greater (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/Monsters.php?ID=822)too many eyes, not strong enough, not challenging enough, can't explain the escape.
Formian Myrmarch (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Formian_Myrmarch)Not strong enough to explain the tower scene
Gelatinous CubeFits none of the major scenes
General Ox (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=1912)Sorcerer with access to 9th level spells, and STR 36. Doesn't quite match the circus scene's public reactions
Genie/Djinn (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm) (SRD or MM 114)while able to cast wish, they can talk, they are not particularly ugly, and they're nowhere near powerful enough for MitD
GeriviarNo good explanation for the Escape. Not strong enough.
Ghour (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ghour)Decently strong, but insufficient CR and too big. Being a demon, it's morality and 'father' doesn't match well MitD's.
Giant Snowman (http://www.giantitp.com/Images/gitpkick/MustHaveBeenSomeMagic.png)Large strength and high HP, but no other known powers to explain the other scenes (especially the escape).
Giant Space Hamster (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/pdf/animal/giant_space_hamster.pdf)Not strong enough, no magical powers, not ugly enough for the circus scene
Gibbering Orb (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/gibberingOrb.htm) (SRD or ELH 191)Can't stomp due to lack of limbs. Shouldn't leave tracks. Too many eyes and mouths. No explanation for Escape, except far-fetched "ate someone with access to wish the day before".
Girard (Member of the Order of the Scribble)Unsurprising it can talk, wouldn't be exhibited as a circus freak, wouldn't be hunted by the SBGH, is now known to be dead.
Glabrezu (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#Glabrezu) (SRD or MM 43)Pros: Access to wish 1/month, explains the escape and why the goblin wasn't teleported. It also cannot grant its own wishes, further explaining the lack of later success.
31 STR
Surprising it can speak common (not in its language list)
The stronger limbs are probably not dextrous. The human-like ones are probably not strong enough to pull on a rope.
Cons: Huge by base, would require MitD to be less than half-adult sized
Not surprising it can speak
Depending on canon interpretation, cannot have a parent
Embodiment of Chaotic Evil plane - should not be able to be as Good as MitD is.
Low CR
Can see through magical darkness due to True Seeing
Insufficient defences
By consensus (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25905421), not unrecognizable or ugly enough for the circus scene
Gloom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/gloom.htm)Fairly strong, very powerful, but has no eyes, shadow walk isn't quite good enough to explain the escape and "tall, very dark, elf-eared person with a cloak" is not exactly "I've never seen anything like it before"
GoristroHuge, and can't teleport, or explain the escape in any other way. See also Pit Fiend.
Gray Render (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/grayRender.htm) (SRD or MM 138)can't explain the escape, or the tower. Not particularly good at explaining the circus. Too many eyes (6).
GrendelOriginal text says it is immune to weapons. Unclear how it accounts for the escape scene, except if it were demon-spawn due to conversion to D&D, which is a very big stretch. Difficulty addressing its strength (enough to break benches, but not the full hall).
Grey Slaad (MM 231)can teleport people both within a plane and between planes, but so-so strength
GrootslangCannot explain the escape. Did not exist when #100 was posted
Guardinal, Leonal Not strong enough, aura of fear for evil creatures should have been seen in the comic.
Gug (CoC)(From Call of Cthulhu) Very ugly, and causes loss of sanity when looked at. Has a small chance of knowing how to teleport, but is not strong enough, particularly if young version is assumed due to size problems.
Ha-Naga (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/haNaga.htm) (SRD or ELH 195)Access to wish, and fairly strong although, being Colossal, too big for the umbrella (when moving), and lack of limbs make several scenes difficult to explain (like pulling on the rope or painting the doors). Not particularly vomit-inducing. Proposing a child version reduces the strength below appropriate amount. Telekinesis is not strong enough to push a horse through a wall, and MitD said it was a hitting lightly game, not a cast-a-spell-to-break-the-wall game. Can raise undead (or could by retraining upon level up), which MitD cannot "without gaining 5 levels of cleric". Can speak multiple languages (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm), and thus would not be surprising it talked in common.
Half-Giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/halfGiant.htm) (SRD or XPH 200)Strong and psionic, but can talk, unclear how it accounts for circus scene and the escape.
Hellfire Wyrm (MM2 125)Dragon, and thus can't explain the circus scene properly. Too big (huge)
HephaestusGod: Immune to mind control
Hoary Hunter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hoaryHunter.htm) (SRD or ELH 197)Very strong, can plane shift, but not revolting enough to explain the circus' reactions
HollyphantNot quite strong enough, can't explain the escape, too adorably cute for the circus scene
Hunefer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hunefer.htm)Undead; due to paralysing aura can't explain the circus scene.
Hunting Horror (CoC)Pros:
CR 20 - powerful enough to be MitD.
Strength of 34 - on the lower side, but within acceptable bounds for the tower scene.
Hideous form - looks like a "black ropy worm or serpent, rather like a legless dragon... with a single wing rising from the middle of the back and a long sinuous tail trailing behind," but are also "mutable, as some have reported them with two wings instead of one, or two eyes instead of a single three-lobed yellow eye." 6th edition of CoC describes them as "hard to look at" and "continually changing, twitching and writhing".
Accompanied by a permanent foul stench that causes Nausea.
Has a Roar ability, but that causes damage, so perhaps that doesn't explain the "STOP" after all.
Can understand speech, but "rarely speaks," according to the D20 version.
Has a Swallow Whole ability, so more than capable of devouring Redcloak.
Has a tail that it can use as an appendage, allowing him to smack the ground and "punch" Miko and Windstriker through a wall, but making pulling things or holding small objects difficult.
Rare to see it on Earth at all, let alone in a rainforest in the middle of the day.
Cons:
Defences not that great: AC of 19, plus DR 5/+1, fast healing of 10 - only the last can help explain the "tickle" comment, and not well at that.
Access to teleportation a bit dodgy - some older versions give it more random spell access, but D20 specifies a list of spells that does not include teleportation. As per consensus (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25904566), this was considered insufficiently plausible for FBS.
Damaged by light - explanations vary as to whether it can tolerate a few hours worth of light or if light damages it outright, but a problem either way
Too big to fit under either umbrella or box.
The total lack of non-wing limbs in the official description doesn't fit the art clues. It's of variable form, though, so it might have limbs.
Alternatively, it has been suggested that the HH could be following the CoC rules, rather than the d20 rules, in which case he could use Avert Harm to resist the attacks, but in that case, the creature does not have a means to explain the escape. As a workaround, it has been suggested it could have learnt a heavily modified Word of Recall that teleports to a random destination, although this has no canon support (that such WoR exists, nor that MitD has learnt it).
IllithidNot strong enough, can't explain the escape
Illithid Elder BrainHas good explanations for the Escape and Circus, but not quite enough strength for the Tower (while still having good defences). Does not have teeth or eyes. Requires a pool of water to live in.
Illurien (MM5)Female, Insufficient strength
Ilsidahur (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?66577-Creature-Catalog-new-3-5-conversions/page25&p=4025832&viewfull=1#post4025832)Demonic (difficulty explaining alignment, probably no parent), difficulty explaining the circus scene. Specific stats linked are too recent for MitD (a 1988 version exists)
Incubus Not powerful enough, difficulty changing alignments, can't explain the circus scene
Infernal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#infernal) (SRD or ELH 164)Immune to mind affecting spells, unclear how it accounts for the escape scene (it's greater teleport is self-only). Can animate dead, which RC claims MitD cannot.
Intellect DevourerStrength too low. No explanation for the Escape
JabberwockDifficult to gauge if it fits or not, since the jabberwock is never really described. However, being unique, it doesn't fit the comment of MitD being "one of these". D&D versions tend to be too weak, and lack teleportation.
JuiblexPros:
High strength.
High DR
Teleport without error
Appearance matches the Circus scene and there is even the fact that some people get obsessed with Juiblex and become thralls to explain the bit about beauty.
Eats everything. Yeah. Everything.
High knowledge skills that would explain the MitD knowing unexpected things. i.e. the ritual.
Cons:
Unique creature (likely, his children wouldn't have the above powers)
No reason, assuming the BGH were not confused, for it to be surprising he can speak common.
Attacks are always acidic in nature - does not match the Tower scene
Too many eyes, no teeth
Alignment issues (see section 1e)
King-Kong descendantProblem addressing strength and size at the same time. Cannot explain the escape scene.
KlickerNo explanation for the escape, didn't exist before comic #100
KlurichirSeveral versions exists: the one that are strong enough cant explain the escape, and viceversa. Demonic, so has some issues with Mit'd morality.
Kyton, Eremite (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/kyton/kyton-eremite)Can't explain the escape, since it can only self-teleport. Created after strip #100
Lammassu, CelestialNot strong enough, can cast cleric spells.
Lammassu, GreaterThe 2e 'Greater Lammasu' looked promising, but the 3 or 3.5 versions that have been reviewed fell short across the board.
LaogzedDemigod: can be mind controlled
Lava ChildrenCan't explain the circus scene (neither ugly nor particularly strange), unclear if it can explain the escape
Lethus Dragonpublication date 7 years after strip #100. Otherwise, fits the FBS rather nicely, but not the general fluff of MitD
Li Lung (Earth Dragon) (OA)Pros:
Yellow eyes
Reasonably strong, potentially challenging, and correctly sized up to young adult
Damage reduction
Earthquake AND a powerful roar
Plane Shift
Cons:
plane shift doesn't explain the escape well
Personality (sleepiness, constant desire to consume, etc) doesn't match typical li lung's description
As a young adult, it is not powerful enough
Loculi1E monster, so hard to tell if he'd be strong enough. Fairly disturbing, and might have access to teleport items
Marut (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#marut)Construct, has a vendetta against undead, embodiment of a morality plane
MyrmixicusTeleport self+objects only (although with a very generous weight limit). 33 strength. Demonic looking, which might not quite explain the circus scene. Embodiment of a morality plane. Might not have the ability to breath air, since it's a aquatic demon.
Nabassu (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060605a) (WotC book previews or Fiendish Codex 1)Not particularly strong, can only teleport themselves, and kill any level-1s that look at them, thus having difficulty explaining its success as a circus act.
Neh-Thalggu (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/nehThalggu.htm) (SRD or ELH 206)incorporeal - meaning it has 0 STR and can't explain the punching of Miko or her horse (it could have bitten them, but not hit them)
Neo-otyugh (2e MM?)Can't explain the escape. Unclear strength (otyugh is definitely too weak). Too many eyes (3).
Neothelid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/neothelid.htm) (SRD or XPH 204)Pros:
Fairly high strength (30)
Psionic Teleport at will
Vomit-inducing, since it's a gigantic worm with tentacles
Heavy eating
Rarely communicates in a meaningful way
Its ability to Trace Teleport would explain how it knew where to send O-Chul and V
Cons:
Difficulty explaining the earthquake and the stomp, lacking legs.
Defences not that great
No eyes
Gargantuan
Nessie the Loch Ness MonsterToo big for the umbrella, can't explain the escape scene, difficulty existing in dry land
Nightmare Beast (MM2 161)Pros:
Fairly strong
spends most of its time looking for food, and then sleeping
Dimension door
Can't talk
Cons:
Not defensively impressive - Miko would not have had trouble hurting it.
Dimension door doesn't explain the escape well.
Red eyes
Everyone in the city should've been having terrible nightmares
Nightscape Battlemage (http://magiccards.info/ps/en/47.html)Can't explain the circus scene or the tower scene. Unsurprising it can talk
NycalothInsufficient strength, no good explanation for the circus scene or the tower scene.
Oni, Go-Zu and Me-ZuSeveral varieties, none really strong enough, and with no way to explain the escape.
Onyx Worm (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psb/20020808a)not strong enough, can't explain the escape.
Ophan AngelGood stats, but hundreds of eyes, and no good explanation for the escape.
Outsider, The (H.P. Lovecraft)undead
Paizo Golem Construct. Can't explain the escape scene or the circus scene. Created 5 years after strip #100
Phaerimm (Monsters of Faerun 70)Very, very ugly, access to wish through sorcerer levels, but not strong enough for the tower scene, and has no eyes.
Phane (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#phane)No explanation for the escape. Incorporeal, so can't push or pull. Permanent Null Time field doesn't fit the Circus scene. Attacks don't fit the Tower scene.
Phasm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/phasm.htm)Telepathic, so surprising it can speak. Not strong enough, can't explain the escape.
Pit Fiend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#pitFiend) (SRD or MM 57)Pros:
Strong, good defences
Highly skilled in Knowledge Arcane, -Religion, -Planes and in Spellcraft which would explain how the MitD could identify the ritual with merely a glance.
Access to Wish
Cons:
Pit Fiends probably don't have children and aren't child-like. (From Roy's Archon's words here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html), it seems OotS-verse has normal "advancement" of celestial beings. On the other hand, two demons have mentioned parents)
It is not surprising it can talk.
It can reanimate the dead
Circus scene presents two problems: demonic creatures are not difficult to recognise (in a broad sense, if not the specific type), and the reaction one would expect is fear, not vomiting.
Rich's comments in W&XPs seem to indicate that morality planes creatures can't change alignments more than slightly.
Planetar Angel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelPlanetar) (SRD or MM 11)Has cleric levels
Pooka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Púca)No good explanations for the escape or the tower, being of the trickster fairy archetype
PrimusThe supreme modron, has a bunch of powers, including teleport, but is too unique to be MitD (more a position than a creature type), is not particularly revolting, and cannot be mind controlled.
Prismasaurus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/prismasaurus.htm)No explanation for the escape, immune to mind-affecting "attacks" (which may or may not include what Xykon did to MitD). In the circus scene, people aren't being blinded or hit by prismatic sprays
Psammead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Children_and_It#The_Psammead)Can grant wishes, but is not strong, is too small and being damage by water is something that does not match well with MitD's life in the rainforest. Also, Psammeads cannot grant their own wishes, so it cannot explain the earthquake or the tower scene.
Qlippoth (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalMonsters/qlippoth.html)Specifically, the Augnagar: explains circus and tower, but can't explain the escape. Immune to mind control.
Quaraphon Bully(MM3)Not strong enough, no explanation for the Escape, too many eyes.
Reality warper (e.g. Superman's Fifth-Dimensional Imp)Their reality revision power would explain the escape scene, but not the tower scene. A reality warper can cause anything they desire to become true, but in the tower scene, the exact opposite of MitD's desires (to hit as lightly as possible) happened.
Sapphire Dragon, Ancient"Ancient" doesn't really fit MitD's personality. Slightly too big. Barely strong enough. Can't really explain the Circus scene
SarrukhNot strange enough for the circus scene. Not strong enough for the Tower Scene. Not surprising it can speak.
SCP-682 (http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-682)Published in 2007, didn't exist during comic #100. Can't explain the escape (except by an undefined unrestricted ability to adapt). The personalities are very different. Arguably too powerful to be MitD.
ShadeCan't explain the escape, nor the tower scene. It only fits the circus scene if it is a shade with no light sensitivity. Don't eat, breath or age. Their lack of metabolism means they also do not emit odors. The best fitting version is also a homebrew which didn't exist when MitD was picked.
Shadow Dragon (Draconomicon 191)
Pros:
It can cast Dimension Door as a supernatural ability once per day.
Its size is Large as a young adult and adult, and Medium if it is juvenile.
It has damage resistance 5 when it becomes a young adult.
It's Shadowy and gets 9/10ths concealment from this....
Cons:
Not incredibly strong
Doesn't explain the earthquake or the escape
Shadowcloak ElderShadow Blend doesn't match MitD's instructions to stay in the shadows (other than in Xykon's tower), not quite strong enough, can't talk, can't explain the escape.
Shedu, Greater (http://dedpihto.narod.ru/games/Monsters1/MM00260.htm) (FF) Not strong enough. Unclear what its stats are in 3.5. Not surprising it can talk.
Shoggoth (CoC)Unclear if it can explain the escape, it may drive the public of the circus insane.
Shirokinukatsukami Not enough strength (20), can't explain the escape due to only self-teleporting
Siabrie (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20020817a)Insufficient strength, female, beautiful, can't account for the escape.
Slime ChildPublished after #100
Smiling MedinaHomebrewed after strip 100. Not strong enough for the tower scene.
Snark/BoojumCannot explain the escape scene, and most likely cannot explain the earthquake or tower scenes (although the descriptions are vague)
Solar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelSolar) (SRD or MM 12)Cons:
Solars don't really have children and aren't child-like.
It is not surprising it can talk.
It can reanimate the dead
Sphinx (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sphinx.htm) (SRD or MM 232)Not really strong enough; the suggested idea was a kind of rock sphinx, but that can't be found in the stat'ed lists.
Starspawn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9404200&postcount=811) (aka Son of Cthulhu)Drives people looking at him insane, thus having difficulty explaining its success as a circus act. Strength high, but not impressively so.
Stench KowWith a CR 3-4, it is not a credible threat to the order. Can't explain the escape or the tower scenes.
Sun Wukong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_wukong)Talks, no father, not part of a group, vegetarian.
Tarasque, original mythological version (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarasque)Probably would be the Tarrasque in OotS. Can't explain the escape
Titan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/titan.htm) (SRD or MM 242)Pros: High Strength, mythologically, the Titan Uranus ate his children.
Cons: The only way to rescue O-Chul is by using Maze, which fits badly. It wouldn't be surprising it can talk.
Titan, Elder (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Elder_Titan)Not surprising it can talk. Can't explain the circus.
Titanic Stalker42 Strength, SLA Earthquake 5/day. OK defences (DR 10, regen 3). No explanation for the escape, colossal
TrollNot strong enough, can't explain the escape, has difficulty explaining the circus (trolls are fairly common creatures, not something that unrecognisable).
Truly Horrid Umber Hulk (MM 248)Fairly strong, confusing gaze might explain the circus' reactions. However, doesn't have teleportation abilities, or earthquake.
Tulani EledrinToo pretty and elf-looking for the circus scene. Not quite strong enough. Can cast clerical spells.
TuraglasUnique demon lord, therefore not "one of those". Has an alternate form that could be confused with a "turagathshnee" (a demon group), but that shape has no eyes, the Turaglas is too weak in that form, and yet is significantly larger than them, which does not match the "so small" comments.
Two-headed CyclopsTwo heads, but only one eye each, lazy & fairly ugly, but can't explain the escape and are not that strong. They can also speak, but only elven, not common.
Ulgurstasta SorcererUndead. Eats (swallows whole) bodies to produce undead, so should have been able to help RC. Gargantuan. Defences too weak to explain the Tower scene or Belkar's attack.
UltrolothDemonic (morality problems), insufficient strength & defences, can't explain the escape
Uluu ThalonghNot surprising to be found in a jungle/rainforest. Unclear if it accounts for the escape.
Umbral Blot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/umbralBlot.htm)(Blackball)Construct, too weak (Str 10) for the tower scene. Can't explain the earthquake's stomp. Appearance doesn't match circus reactions.
Umpleby (1st ed FF)Can't explain the circus scene, or the escape.
UnbodiedCannot explain the escape nor the tower
Utukku (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?66577-Creature-Catalog-new-3-5-conversions/page3&p=1294154&viewfull=1#post1294154)Insufficient strength. 2nd ed version has poor defences, 3rd ed. version can't explain the escape.
Vasuthant (MM3 182)Undead. Can't explain the escape
VaarsuviusCreated for the comic. Doesn't eat meat. Not strong enough. Explanation that turns a wizard into MitD by means of the Snarl is completely unlikely and unsupported by evidence
Vermiurge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/vermiurge.htm) (SRD or ELH 226)revolting sight, but can't explain the escape, can speak and is immune to mind-affecting spells.
VelociraptorCannot explain the escape or the tower scene
Void Yai OniCan't explain the escape
Warforged (Eberron or MM3 190)Construct
Wendigo (FF 186)Very strong, fairly ugly, famously hungry creatures. However, no magic, and thus doesn't explain the escape.
WharlyskLives in the rainforest. Huge. No explanation for the escape. Not strong enough
Wild ThingsCannot explain the escape
Wingless Wonder (http://www.mojobob.com/roleplay/monstrousmanual/w/winleswo.html)Insufficiently strong. 2nd ed, no explanation for being outside the pit. Can only explain the escape if it is a transformed wizard with sufficient spells. Can't explain the circus.
Wolf-in-sheep's-clothing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/wolf-in-sheep-s-clothing)Can't explain the escape. Can't explain the circus, since he explicitly does nothing during his act, so all the public would see is a tree stump with maybe a dead animal on top. Can't explain the tower scene (STR 17, CR 8)
Wumpus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunt_the_Wumpus)Doesn't explain the escape.
YaliStrong, can psionic teleport, but cannot explain the circus scene.
Yeti Very strong, presumed ugly even though no-one ever manages to see him. However, no magic, and thus doesn't explain the escape.
Xor-Yost (Planar Handbook 122)Can't explain the escape
Zodar (http://lost.spelljammer.org/ShatteredFractine/critters/monsters/zodar.html) (FF 199)Pros:
Very strong
Can cast wish once in a lifetime, and any spell three times in a lifetime
Human-sized
Invulnerable to all damage except bludgeoning explains his resistance to Belkar's and Miko's attacks.
Cons:
Does not explain the circus scene, since it basically looks like a man in a black armor
No reason why he'd remember a bigger father, or why Oona would expect him to grow.
The official version of Zodar is a construct, which would discard him; there is, however, an unofficial version (http://lost.spelljammer.org/ShatteredFractine/critters/monsters/zodar.html) that retains the 2.0 version that was monstrous, and that existed before the official one.
Grey_Wolf_c
2023-11-13, 04:46 PM
Section 4: Thread Information
Section 4a: Thread Rules
This is a curated thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12577293&postcount=2), and as such obeys the following rules:
CuratorI, Grey Wolf, am the curator of the thread.
Responsibilities:
Maintain the thread
Remember arguments and canon
Answer polite questions about MitD and the thread
What I can't do
I have no official authority
I am not a moderator
I cannot ban discussion of issues I consider settled
I cannot prevent certain topics from being discussed (but I can publicly withdraw from them); however, see also section on Inappropriate Topics below
I cannot prevent any given poster from participating (but can Ignore them)
I cannot make executive decisions on what is or is not included in the first post outside the guidelines stated in this post.
Adding information to the first post
To add something to the first post needs two positive votes to do so. "Positive votes" means two more people in favour of the idea than against it.
In normal operation, that essentially means convincing me to add it. The original proponent and me make the 2 votes, assuming no-one objects. If I disagree, the proponent will then need two other posters to agree with him/her (assuming no-one else but me disagrees). And so on: if 3 people are opposed, five need to be in favour, etc.
Why not simple majority? Because that is perilously close to a draw. With only one vote up or down, someone might come in a day later and vote against the idea would mean that we open the door to having to continually add and remove things from the first post - I want to prevent that as much as possible. This way, a vote against the change coming after the change still leaves a simple majority in favour of it (if would take two votes against the change after the fact for it to be reverted).
The only exception to the rule is the refreshes. When I do a refresh of the first post, I will not require to get anyone to agree with me; instead, I will publish a list of all changes as I make them, and when it is over, two objections will be enough to remove a change. For those doing the math at home, that is only one positive vote to remove it (I'd naturally be opposed, since I just added it), but since it got added only with one vote (mine), it's fair to remove it also with only one vote.
For major reworking of the first post, such as the issue with the definition of FBS, removing or adding whole sections, etc, it will need to be put to general vote. To request a vote to make a change to the OP, a proponent must obtain the backing of two other participants. The vote will then be held when the curator can set it up, or at refresh, whichever comes soonest.
Inappropriate Topics
The following topics are considered by consensus inappropriate for the thread. Note that no mod has weighted on either, so the easiest way forward if you want to discuss them is to first get mod approval:
Intellectual Property ("copyrighted") creatures not belonging to WotC. Due to section "Inappropriate Topics", subsection "Professional Advice" of board rules, discussion of laws is verboten in this forum. Since the biggest objection to copyrighted creatures is whether or not Rich would be legally allowed to use them, every such creature proposed quickly devolved into a discussion of applicable laws, which is not allowed. For the purposes of this thread, any creature created after Mickey Mouse (1923) is currently under copyright in the US.
Please also see this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18959523&postcount=2) explaining the rationale behind the blanket ban on all copyright and copyright discussion, and especially the section on fair use.
MitD's personal alignment: not that of his species, but his personally. Consensus is that his alignment cannot be tied to that of his species (see section 1e). It is a separate enough topic that it should have its own thread. If V can have a thread for gender and a separate one for alignment, MitD can have one for his species (this one) and a separate one for his alignment. At least until the mods say otherwise.
Section 4b: Voting Rules
Major changes to the first post may be put to consensus vote. In those cases, the following rules will be followed:
Public vote: votes will be posted in the thread, although please be conscious of both spamming rules and the general discouragement of short posts. I will compile all votes in the original voting post for verification and record keeping.
Multiple votes per person: you can vote for more than one option. Do so in order of preference.
Vote counting: will not be first past the post; instead, alternative vote system (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y3jE3B8HsE) will be used.
Vote length: Until a day passes without anyone else voting.
Voting is binding: if you vote for extra work, be prepared to do the extra work. If extra work is voted for, but no-one does it, the option will be discarded and runner-up will be done instead. Generally, though, I will clearly articulate which options I will expect voters to do if they win, usually on the basis of the effort involved. If I do not say anything, you can assume that I'm happy to implement every option myself.
Voting options: If you feel the options are not to your liking, you can vote for a new option by describing it in your post. Give it a letter for ease of voting.
Changing Votes: You can change your vote at any time before the end of the voting.
Voting record
Aug-2013 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=15886318); Result: "Size no bigger than huge" & "no immunity to mind control" added to FB requirements
Mar-2019 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23792722); Result:No change
Aug-2019 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24081940); Result: No change
Jul-2020 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24618514); Replace FBS Condition 6) with a scaling strength scale, starting at 30 for Huge, and adding 8 thereafter due to reduced size of MitD compared to base species
Nov-2023 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25904566); Hunting Horror removed from FBS
Nov-2023 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25905421); Glabrezu removed from FBS
Feb-2024 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25964760); ANB removed from FBS
Section 4c: FAQ
Do I have to read all of the first post before jumping in?No, but you should exercise good sense and read the sections most likely to be related to what you are about to post.
If you want to propose a creature, scan the proposed creatures list to see if it is already there, and read both section 3a (to see how your idea stacks up against the current "best of the crop") and the frequently proposed (in case your idea is already there - in this last case, you need to address all the cons listed in your first post).
If you want to propose an explanation for a MitD characteristic, check section 2 for it, and see what the general consensus of the thread for the characteristic is. If it is a scene, rather than a characteristic, you may have read the whole section to see where that scene is involved.
For other situations, reading section 4 and this FAQ is a good start. If in doubt, you can ask me, the curator, for guidance to the best sections to read.
When is the first post updated?Updates of details that strike me as important, typos, small corrections and other quick things can happen at any time.
When is a proposal added to the first post?Generally once the discussion has tapered to a general conclusion that allows me to place it in the appropriate section. For a proposal to be added, it needs to meet the following:
Be minimally defended. If just the name is mentioned, it won't get added
Not meant as a joke. If it was meant as one, it will only be added if I find it exceptionally funny (or with two positive votes).
Not retracted by the author. If the author retracts it and no-one else is in favour, it won't get added.
Why is my idea not a FBS?Probably because it doesn't meet the requirements which by current consensus are:
1) Has a plausible explanation for the Escape
2) Has a plausible explanation for the Tower (both his attack and his defence)
3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus (both his act, and the reactions)
4) Isn't one of the impossible categories (unless it is an exception)
5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich.
6) Strength insufficient once reduced to MitD's size
7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects (SoD)
Wouldn't a non-D&D copyrighted creature be legal under fair use or parody?A detailed answer would count as legal advice, and can't therefore be further discussed (see Section 4a - Inappropriate topics). Thread consensus is that neither fair use nor parody are applicable to MitD, but agree or disagree, discussion of IP non-D&D monsters is not allowed in this thread per the board rules.
Can't a non-D&D copyrighted creature be discussed, ignoring the legal status and only discussing its pros and cons?In theory, yes, but in practice the biggest con is its legal status, especially if the creature is a half-decent fit. The fact of the matter is that in practice, any non-D&D IP creature quickly descends into a legal discussion.
Isn't every idea guessable? I mean, if someone just guessed it?"Guess" has two meanings. One is "random chance", like throwing a dart at a board. The other is "deduce". Rich intended the second one, as he clarified when he says "I trust that someone will figure it out eventually". He is dropping clues, and expects us to be able to eventually figure it out, presumably once we have all the clues.
Since you haven't found the solution yet, is it possible you are doing something wrong?Not necessarily. Ideas come to this thread slowly. For example, our current best fits were not suggested until late in the second thread and early third, and the explanations for the escape only included the stray dimensional lock as of start of the fifth thread. Besides, there is no way to know if we have found the solution. Balloons won't fall from the ceiling the moment someone says the correct species; for all we know, we have already found the creature Rich thought of.
Haven't you checked all D&D creatures by now?Not even close. There are literally thousand of official creatures, and beyond counting for third-party creatures published in all manner splatbooks. To illustrate just how deep the search space goes, consider that Crusher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13164767&postcount=1078), in the space of an afternoon, checked one new source and found 5 new better-than-average candidates, and then repeated (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14497821&postcount=279) the feat a few pages later. There remains a lot of material to explore. And it was 14 threads before anyone thought to suggest the xenocrysth, a remarkably good fit that you'd think would've been brought up much sooner.
Does MitD have to be a D&D creature?No, not at all. Rich has never said that MitD is a D&D creature, only that, whatever he is, he didn't make his species up.
Does MitD have to be a 3.5 D&D creature?If he was updated to 3.5, yes, since conversion is automatic. But if he was never updated, he could be a 1st Ed or 2ed creature (although the latter would need a reason why he wasn't trapped in Dorukan's Dungeon with the rest of never-updated creatures).
Are templated creatures allowed?Yes and no. You can put in a guess (that will be recorded in Crusher's list of guesses post) with as many templates, class levels, HD boosts, etc as you feel is called for. But when it comes to recording suggestions (section 3), only the base creature, as described in the statblock, is listed - templates are instead classified in section 2d. The reason for this is twofold: first, as per section 2d, templates are a kind of crutch, since they can be used by any creature, so it doesn't so much explain an MitD characteristic as much as declare it is not such, since others of his species can't do what he can.
But more importantly, the number of combinations of template and creature is practically infinite. I don't want to have to insert or maintain entries for species X; species X-template A; species X - template B; species X, templates A & B; etc. - because in the end, the information all those would contain is the entry for species X, and the information under the template entries in 2d. No need to duplicate the information.
b_jonas
2023-11-13, 04:57 PM
Section 6: Appearances of the MitD
Section 6a: Appearances in online strips.
#23: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0023.html) Xykon says MitD is his secret weapon, will reveal him when the time is right.
#37: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html) Xykon and MitD watch Roy set off the booby-trapped door.
#47: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0047.html) More crystal ball watching.
#82: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0082.html) Redcloak tells MitD off for leaving mess in kitchen. More crystal ball watching. MitD is in magical darkness.
#96: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0096.html) MitD can't see gate.
#97: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html) MitD joins Redcloak in evil laugh.
#103: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0103.html) Xykon practices big reveal of MitD. Xykon is not satisfied, MitD listing spices to cook OotS with isn't scary enough.
#105: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0105.html) Nothing.
#106: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html) Doesn't see gate again.
#109, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0109.html) #110, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html) #113: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html) Nothing notable.
#114: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html) Xykon prepares to reveal MitD, gets interrupted. MitD is anxious.
#117: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html) MitD wants to get revealed, Redcloak and Xykon stops him.
#120: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html) Nothing notable.
#147: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html) MitD asks to hold Xykon's phylactery. Redcloak refuses, MitD had broken all his toys, including “Power Ranger figures”. MitD gets fanged Hello Kitty umbrella.
#148: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0148.html) Nothing notable.
#149: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0149.html) MitD does exposition about the initiation rituals.
#190: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0190.html) MitD teaches Redcloak evil leadership.
#191: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0191.html) MitD doesn't want to go into abandoned castle. Xykon tells MitD should be scary and powerful.
#192: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html) Nothing notable.
#194: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0194.html) MitD asks lantern archons to light him up.
#195: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0195.html) MitD asks why Serini's diary is useful, knows about magical books.
#196: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) MitD knows about Dorukan. Doesn't know about gates.
#259: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0259.html) Reader question time. Hobgoblin Kodrog the Slayer knows what the MitD is, took a peek under his umbrella. Dies before he answers.
#299: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html) MitD wants to be a valuable member. Redcloak says he can't help in making zombies.
#331: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) Still confused about gate.
#368: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0368.html) “Sometimes I eat to fill the loneliness.”
#369, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0369.html) #371: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0371.html) Nothing notable.
#373: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0373.html) Miko meets MitD.
#374: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) MitD has to stop Miko. Feels Miko's full attack as only tickles. Plays “Who Can Hit the Lightest”, hits Miko and his horse far through the tower wall, but they survive. Wall now has holes in the shape of Miko and horse.
#375: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) MitD finds Miko's purse with letter from High Priest of Thor to Durkon, paper cuts his tongue.
#376: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html) Xykon had asked MitD to not let Miko get away, and this was Xykon's idea.
#414: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0414.html) Nothing notable.
#415: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html) MitD crystal ball watching on Miko. Confused about gate.
#422: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html) MitD confused about Redcloak chewing out on decoy Xykon.
#426: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0426.html) MitD confused about three Xykons.
#428: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html) Nothing.
#431: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html) MitD confused about four Xykons. Understands the distinction between arcane and divine spells. Redcloak explains the decoy strategy to him. MitD still doesn't understand.
#447: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0447.html) Nothing notable.
#451: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html) MitD grumbles.
#463: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html) MitD plays tea party with toy green dragon. Paralyzed O-Chul arrives.
#474: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html) When Belkar is trying to track down Roy's corpse, he sees weird tracks that he can't recognize. They're definitely not hobgoblin footprints, or Roy's, but doesn't know what made them. MitD is still having tea party, now with dead Roy too.
#475: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) Haley and Durkon wants to retrieve Roy's body. MitD doesn't allow, shouts “Stop!” As alternate plan, Haley offers stew in exchange for Roy. Flashback to MitD eating moldy cheeseburger.
#476: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html) MitD enjoys Belkar's half-cooked vulture stew. As Haley and Belkar starts to leave, MitD hears they're the Order of the Stick, who he's supposed to devour.
#477: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) MitD thinks about whether he should eat Haley and Belkar without Xykon introducing him first. Doesn't seem to notice Belkar's attack. Haley and Belkar escape while he's still thinking. MitD stomps after demon roach's advice, causes earthquake and huge cracks in ground. “Wow! I didn't know I could do that!” Belkar lets O-Chul go, O-Chul falls back to MitD. MitD is “really tired all of a sudden. And still hungry.”
#484: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html) MitD carries the paralyzed O-Chul.
#541: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0541.html) MitD is now in a large box with barred window. Wants to join Team Evil in betting game. Again bets on O-Chul escaping.
#543: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html) MitD says he hoped O-Chul would escape, but it didn't work. Still doesn't know gates. Wants to get out of the box, Xykon doesn't let him.
#549: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html) MitD is friends with O-Chul, trades food with him. Tells he eats anything but babies. Wants to start a club that girls can't join.
#550: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) O-Chul questions MitD about why he's friends with Team Evil. MitD wants to play, O-Chul promises to play go with him in the morning.
#651: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) MitD tells O-Chul about his youth. He always lived in the rainforest, although need not have been born there. His dad was BIG and a big eater. The MitD doesn't know what species he is or where he belongs, but thinks Redcloak and Xykon know. O-Chul convinces the MitD to start to think for himself, with a cheesy go metaphor. We see the go board. Fart joke at MitD's expense when Vaarsuvius arrives with a bang.
#652: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) MitD does not appear. Vaarsuvius casts Quickened Dimensional Anchor spell, its ray misses Xykon.
#654: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html) MitD still wants to get the darkness lit up. O-Chul escapes, and in his parting words, reminds the MitD of the lesson from #651. MitD calls O-Chul his real name for the first time.
#658: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0658.html) MitD is worried about O-Chul.
#661: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html) MitD says O-Chul needs to escape now, because Xykon will be really angry. Calls O-Chul his friend again. Shouts “ESCAPE”, O-Chul and Vaarsuvius disappear. Xykon doesn't seem to realize it was the MitD's doing.
#662: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html) MitD is sleeping (or pretending to).
#663: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html) (MitD not present.) Vaarsuvius and O-Chul turn out to have arrived in Hinjo's camp. O-Chul requests the most learned scribe because he has questions about the escape.
#699: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0699.html) MitD tries to replicate the escape on a hobgoblin. Deliberately misinterpreted Redcloak's words to bother someone else. Hobgoblin tells him he'd need to use magic for that to work, MitD says he's too dumb for that. MitD is worried about where he sent his friends and if they're safe. Mentions the other planes.
#700: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html) MitD is not allowed in Tsukiko's room. MitD asks Tsukiko's help because she knows both types of magic. They discuss Tsukiko's fascination with the undead. MitD recognizes ritual scroll as “half a ritual”. Tsukiko promises she'll try to help him find his friend.
#701: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html) Hobgoblin from #699 asks MitD to open the curtains before Redcloak's speech. MitD warns him about clumsiness with pulling a rope. MitD thinks the goblins are cheering for his performance with the curtain.
#702: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html) Nothing.
#703: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0703.html) MitD reads Gobbotopia history booklet. Joke about how Jirix was dead.
#704: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html) Redcloak thinks MitD doesn't know what a prime minister is.
#709: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0709.html) MitD meets up with Tsukiko to call in her promise to find his friends. Tsukiko tells him he shouldn't be friends with paladins, and that she can't help because the Cloister spell protects O-Chul from divination. Joke about Xykon's balls. Even if Tsukiko and Xykon can't help, MitD hopes he'll find O-Chul eventually, and recalls the detail O-Chul said about rain.
#828: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0828.html) (MitD not present.) Redcloak says MitD still watches the crystal ball.
#831: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html) MitD (still in box) informs Redcloak that Xykon is angry. (The reason is that the resistance acquired his phylactery.)
#832: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0832.html) MitD now under umbrella. (Team evil is preparing to leave.)
#833: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html) MitD still thinks of Tsukiko as a friend. Xykon says they'll take a quick detour to the Astral Plane before they go to Girard's gate. Redcloak opens portal to the Astral Plane. MitD: “Oooo! I love the Astral Plane! It's so silvery and weightless!” Xykon: “When the hell were YOU ever on the Astral Plane?” MitD: “…I don't remember. Maybe I wasn't?”
#886: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0886.html) MitD does not appear in OotS's illusionary imagination of confrontation with Team Evil.
#887: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0887.html) In tiny picture in illusion montage, MitD under umbrella drinking tea with O-Chul, while Elan, Roy and Durkon are present.
#899: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0899.html) Team Evil arrives to Girard's pyramid, MitD under umbrella.
#900: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html) MitD's umbrella damaged after pyramid explodes. He asks which pelvis Xykon is looking for.
#901: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html) MitD recognizes the Order of the Stick, knows they are O-Chul's friends. MitD refers to the paralyzed O-Chul accidentally falling to his tea party as him having captured O-Chul. Worried about the party, bluffs to Xykon that O-Chul and Vaarsuvius are more dangerous and must be already at Kraagor's dungeon, while Roy's party distracts Team Evil here. He cleverly uses the fact that Xykon never remembers Roy. The bluff works, they depart to Kraagor's dungeon immediately.
#1036: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1036.html) MitD shows off his new umbrella to Oona, with drawings of duckies.
#1037: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html) Oona calls him “Great Beast in Shadow”, magnificent and majestic, “like in wildest dreams”. He saw MitD under umbrella. He and Greyview the dog treats him as if he was Xykon's pet who should obey Xykon, but MitD isn't willing to accept that idea. Oona says he almost bought two humans as food to MitD, seems to have heard that a human was MitD's best friend, but misunderstood as if he was his favourite snack. He also says he'd seen under the umbrella, he's a “magnificent monster”, envies Xykon for owning him, and thinks it's a waste keeping him in the shadows. Also says that the MitD is small but will grow.
#1038: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html) MitD understands that Redcloak needs to prepare his spells. Shows suspicious understanding of goblin culture with big words, demon roach lampshades that as clue to MitD puzzle.
#1039: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html) Team evil heads into Kraagor's Tomb, apparently not the first time. To know which entrances they've explored, they mark the door with paint. MitD gets permission to do the painting tonight.
#1040: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1040.html) MitD feels lucky about new company, picks a door. Joke about adventure being off-screen.
#1041: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html) MitD falls back, paints cross on multiple doors, including ones not on the ground floor. Holds paint can and brush as if he had two hands. Seems to leave no footprints in the snow, unlike rest of the team.
#1042: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1042.html) O-Chul and Lien covertly observe MitD doing that. O-Chul is happy that the MitD is not always obedient to Team Evil. O-Chul has a theory about MitD, but doesn't tell because nobody would believe it. O-Chul brought a go game board.
#1189: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1189.html) Redcloak sees a lots of doors marked, concludes they've explored them quickly. Oona disagrees, but MitD takes Redcloak's side to move on from that topic and cover his trick.
#1259: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1259.html) Lien mentions MitD.
#1260: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1260.html) MitD is no longer always hungry. Hobgoblin named Haarko feeds him stew. Xykon is surprised and doesn't like this: he needs the MitD to be able to eat the heroes. Xykon says that he read that the MitD's kind likes to eat dwarves, but MitD disagrees.
#1261: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1261.html) MitD asks where Redcloak is. MitD can recognize Redcloak on Xykon's drawing.
#1263: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1263.html) MitD awkwardly tries to deflect suspicion from that he made the extra marks on the door, both Redcloak and Xykon are apparently too busy to notice this. MitD hopes that he managed to delay the search for the gate significantly with that ploy, but Redcloak explains why it doesn't matter too much.
#1264: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1264.html) MitD hopes that searching the gate will take lots of time. “What gate?” joke is back as Redcloak summons Modrons with a Gate spell.
#1265: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1265.html) MitD is disappointed because the Quinton can keep track of doors so marking them with paint will no longer be necessary.
#1266: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1266.html) One unclear line by MitD.
#1267: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1267.html) MitD asks tricky questions from Xykon to try to confuse him into losing the word game that is the price for the Quinton's help. MitD can't remember whether he had a name.
#1275: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1275.html) Nothing notable.
#1282: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1282.html) MitD speaks up about what Xykon should choose in the Marshmallow Test Saga ad from the Quinton.
Section 6b: Appearances in Start of Darkness (http://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTS99.html) (prequel book).
page 49: MitD is sleeping then waking up. He's in the jungle and loves it there. Naively baited by a giant steak on a hook, he gets trapped in a box.
Page 50: MitD asks hunters to let him out of the box, since it doesn't open from the inside. Hunters are surprised that he talks, and talks in Common. They believe he's a rare and expensive catch. “I never expected” They'll load him into the cargo hold of a boat.
Page 83: MitD is about to perform in circus, has stage fright. He likes stew.
Page 84: The ringmaster announces him as “Prepare to feast your eyes on ‘IT!’”. Circus audience reactions: “Oh my gods…”, “It's horrible!” (closing eyes), “And yet beautiful!”, “Mommy, I feel funny looking at it.”, “Blerrrch!” (vomiting), “I've never seen anything like it!”, “Woooooo!” (Redcloak's niece), “YEAH!” (Redcloak's nephew). MitD found the performance tough. The lady who cares for him doesn't understand, because every show he just “stands out on the stage and gets gawked at”. She gives him stew and has prepared his box. The lady also says the MitD's dinner was the same stew every day for over five years. MitD still likes stew.
Page 84: After performance, Redcloak's brother Right-Eye and his children meet MitD. MitD is in the box eating the stew from a bucket. The box seems to be the same one as the one in #541. We see the box from its narrower side too: it has a window without bars there. MitD remains in this box for the rest of the book. MitD recognizes the family and plays with the younger children with his toy plush dragon from #463. Right-Eye: “Almost everyone else who spends a silver piece to get into the sideshow recoils in abject horror at the sight of you”. They leave but will return tomorrow.
Page 85: Right-Eye says that no, they can't take the MitD home. He affirms that the MitD eats a lot of stew, and can sleep.
Page 88: Presumably the next day, Redcloak, newly arrived in town, is supervising Right-Eye's children in the circus. They meet the MitD behind stage in his box again. Redcloak was impressed seeing him. MitD: “I don't fit into the leotards the trapeze artists wear. Probably has something to do with all the stew.” Redcloak affirms that the MitD could leave the circus and kill all the guards if he wanted, but MitD says that would be rude. Redcloak invites the MitD to work for him. Work involves “Being scary, mostly. Maybe some fighting.” MitD is not paid by circus, Redcloak will pay three times as much.
Page 89: In Right-Eye's home, Redcloak tells him he wants to recruit the MitD for the Plan, because he's powerful.
Page 90: During the night, Redcloak steals the monster from the circus. Lifts MitD's box onto a cart with great difficulties. MitD rocks the box to reach the bucket of stew.
Pages 91, 92, 93: Still escaping from circus. MitD doesn't help, except he can lean his weight to steer the cart.
Page 94: MitD eats cotton candy.
Page 95: Nothing notable.
Page 96: Xykon observes the MitD. Xykon says the MitD is ugly, and is his “secret weapon” now, to deal with any heroes who try to stop Xykon and the Plan, as in #103. They're unclear about the details: “Well… what do you do that really terrifies people?” “Um… let's see… I eat a lot?” “OK, then, when the heroes show up, you'll eat them!” “I've never eaten a hero before.” Xykon also magically charms the MitD to eat Redcloak if he ever betrays Xykon. MitD has swirly eyes, reacts out of character: “Yes, master”. Xykon promises him all the stew he can eat and toys, but refuses to let him out of the box when the MitD asks.
Page 100: Redcloak orders MitD to lead the zombies to attack the castle of Dorukan.
Page 101: MitD has no idea how to storm the castle. Asks zombies to bring him tacos instead.
Page 103: A zombie has brought taco. MitD eats, with bite marks. MitD abuses the authority that Redcloak left him in charge.
Page 104: MitD has a feast with a zombie bringing more taco and a goblin band playing music.
Page 105: MitD still feasting. Xykon questions Redcloak about that.
Page 109: MitD reacts to the news that Right-Eye died and won't be resurrected: “Awwwww, that sucks. He was fun.”. Offers taco to Redcloak.
Page 110, 112: Nothing notable.
Section 6c: Appearances in Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (https://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTS50.html) (book -1/2) and other books by the Giant. (https://www.giantitp.com/Shop.html)
No Cure for the Paladin Blues (https://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTS02.html) (Book 2)
#194a: unknown (I don't have the book)
War and XPs (https://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTS03.html) (Book 3)
#415a: unknown (I don't have the book)
Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (https://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTS50.html) (book -1/2)
Page 28, in the Scruffy story “Scruff and Tumble”, which happens in Gobbotopia while Haley leads the resistance, around the time of #514: In a house, a tiny psionic teleporting elephant beetle is leashed and captured in a magic circle. Redcloak enters to find the beetle gone, the leash torn. Redcloak is angry, blames the MitD for it. MitD is under the Hello Kitty umbrella.
Section 6d: Administrative notes about this list and version history.These lists try to list all appearances of the MitD and references to him in all comic strips that the Giant considers canonical for the story. I mention strips where the MitD is visible even if he's not doing anything, and strips where someone else is talking about the MitD in his absence. I do not collect appearances in non-canonical material such as calendars and ornaments and shirts.
If you find any mistakes or omissions in this list, please point it out in the active MitD thread. I will edit the list in place so that we always have the freshest information on the first page of the thread. In particular, I know there are appearances of the MitD in bonus strips of some of the books I don't have, and one appearance in Snips, Snails and Dragon Tales, and would like your help in writing entries for them. I am trying to make the list give an objective description of what we see in the comic without interpreting the scene in any particular way, so please try to stick to that style when writing entries.
Version history.
Until 2014 Back in MitD threads number 5, 6, 7, 8, Savannah posted a list of all appearances of the MitD in the comic on the first page (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17449929)
2017-11-17 I ask why this practice stopped in threads 9 and 10. Grey_Wolf_c explains that it is because Savannah refused to give permission to copy his post in later threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22579608). I decide to take the matter in my own hands and post a list that covers the first half of the online strips, and try to make it better than Savannah's list. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22580072) Doug Lampert also starts one, but I don't like its style so I mostly ignore it, except for making sure I haven't missed any strip. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22579903)
2017-11-19: I post an updated list that covers all online strips up to that point (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22585133)
2018-05-09: I post an updated list that also covers all of Start of Darkness (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23056887), edit it in place with last update on 2018-05-29
2018-07-08: I post the list on the first page of the new MitD thread (number 11) (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23206731), with prior permission of the thread curator Grey_Wolf_c. I add this administrative notes, but make no changes from the 2018-05-19 version in the actual list.
2018-07-10: Add literal quotes into #833. Previous description was brief “MitD still thinks of Tsukiko as a friend. Remark about the astral plane.” I left it like that because this is a strip I have a very strong opinion about, opposing that of some others of the thread, and didn't want to be too subjective.
2018-07-31: Fix #374. Last sentence used to say "Plays “Who Can Hit the Lightest”, hits Miko and his far through the wall, but they survive." which is both missing the word "horse" and the important information that there are new holes on the wall. Edited #477 to explicitly mention an earthquake, since the circular waves on the ground seem a clear enough sign. Also added bold keywords to the main panel of the four scenes that we seem to have clear consensus that they are key scenes (tower, ESCAPE, circus) so they're easier to find.
2018-08-22: Add entry for #652 with Dimensional Anchor.
2018-09-03: Mention Power Ranger figures explicitly in #147.
2018-10-11: Extended #474 with Belkar seeing tracks. Old text was just: “Still tea party, now with dead Roy too.”
2018-11-17: Link to #113 was incorrect.
2019-01-12: Copied post to new thread: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23632329)
2019-01-30: Add #259. Add new section 6c for book -1/2; other books with only few appearances can go here too.
2019-03-30: Copied post to new thread: MitD XIII: Learning is happening (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?584536).
2019-08-18: In #1037, mention that Oona thinks the MitD is small but will grow.
2019-08-21: In #1041, add sentence about footprints.
2020-04-29: Copied everything to MitD thread number 14.
2020-06-16: Give more context for #1039. Text was just "MitD gets permission to do the painting tonight." Describe 1189.
2020-07-17: Copied post to to thread: MitD XV: The Other Dark One. It is numbered section 6 deliberately, despite that it's posted above section 5 the list of guesses, to keep section numbers stable if reasonably possible.
2020-08-19: Stubs for bonus strip #415a in book 3, and #194a in book 2.
2022-06-12: Add #1259.
2022-08-13: Copied post to thread “MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed” (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?646977); added #1260 to #1264.
2022-10-11: Added #1265 to #1267.
2022-10-12: Copied post to thread “MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic” (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?650507).
2023-03-03: Copied post to new thread: “MitD XVIII: It's utterly unreasonable to expect us to have been paying any attention” (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25723156); added #1275.
2023-08-07: Added #1282.
2023-11-16T: Copied post to new thread: “MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable” (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25906525).
Thanks.
At least the following forum users gave helpful hints for this list, so I'm hereby thanking them: Doug Lampert, Windscion, D.One, Yendor.
As requested, the Protean argument will be posted at the top of the thread.
The original essay is posted here. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24290445&postcount=1195) With some occasional minor revisions (last updated 12/4/23):
First, the background to my process:
Preamble
I’m not a D&D player, a couple of the computer game adaptations aside. I don’t know the game like other people do. Now on the one hand, I think that means I come in without any particular attachment to a creature, so perhaps my case is more “objective” than those of people who have a favorite D&D monster and want it to be the MITD.
It also means I’m working only from the list of already-proposed FBS characters. Given my lack of experience with D&D and the amount of research already done here by people looking through various sourcebooks to find suitable monsters, I don’t think I can add value with any further research. Thus, I have focused my efforts on examining the evidence available vs. the already-existing FBS list and trying to deduce an accurate conclusion. (As this implies, I also believe that “it is possible to guess” means MITD is a D&D monster which is capable of the things we have seen in comic by the rules of D&D 3.5.)
I also recognize that none of the creatures are perfect fits; if they were, this thread likely would have reached a consensus already. But being as I don’t believe I will find a better creature out there, I am going to try to determine the best fit from the FBS creatures based on the evidence at hand.
I’m laying out my case in three parts. The first part I call the “Negative Case”-- why the Protean has the fewest flaws in its case of any creature on the FBS list. The second part I call the “Positive Case”-- why I think the Protean is the best fit for more scenes we’ve seen than any other FBS creature. The third part is the “Thematic Case”-- while the MITD’s species is “possible to guess” from the clues we’ve been given, I’m also keeping in mind that this is a story and not a game of D&D, and I think the Protean is also the best fit for the MITD’s role in the story and story arc.
Without further ado:
Part 1: The Negative Case
As you can see from the list of FBS monsters (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25906511&postcount=3), every monster in the list has some marks against its case (under “Cons” for each). My summary of all those "cons" and how they relate to the known mechanics of species or the artistic depiction of MitD (or the creatures themselves) and why I find them too disqualifying for other creatures will appear later in this section. For now, let's focus on the Protean.
Two things I want to highlight here are:
1a. Fewest cons
Most of the other FBS-list monsters have significantly longer lists of cons than the Protean's two. The longer the list of cons, the worse fit a creature is, as more conflicts need to be explained.
The only monsters with comparably short lists of cons are the Athasian Nightmare Beast, the Carbosilicate Amorph, and the Uvuudaum. I’ll get to the Uvuudaum more in the next section, but I believe the first two, while they really only have one significant con, have disqualifying cons:
The Carbosilicate Amorph would have been imported entirely from another webcomic, a sci-fi story at that. It’s not a D&D monster, and that makes the sort of deduction through D&D stats and powers we’re looking for here nigh impossible. I do not think Rich used a monster outside of D&D; while it is certainly possible he might, I would wager that the complications involved there violate the implicit agreement of the “it is possible to guess” statement. (To say nothing of any complications that might arise from using someone else’s intellectual property-- because I’m pretty sure we’re not allowed to discuss that topic.) In any case, that’s a deal-breaker for me.
The Athasian Nightmare Beast was published after Rich, by his own words, decided on what MITD’s species was. The explanation here is that “the designer could have sent an advance copy to other designers, such as Rich,” but again, I interpret Rich’s “possible to guess” statement to mean it would have been possible to publicly find the information on MITD when he decided on the species. I could be wrong, but I don’t believe he would have picked a creature yet to be published. (And that’s before we get into things like the ANB being described as having “crimson eyes” when the MITD’s are yellow, but I’ll get to artwork in a minute.) Indeed, as the ANB was apparently not published in the form considered the best fit for MITD, its seems highly unlikely Rich would have chosen that version as a creature he considered "possible to guess." (Grey Wolf's post here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25723258&postcount=12) gives more detail on the conceptual issues with ANB as MITD.) It's not even clear that the form of the ANB that qualifies for the FBS exists at all.
Every creature besides those three has a longer con list than the Protean. I believe two of those creatures will not be the MITD because of how they seem to violate the nature of the “guessing game” of MITD’s species. But let’s get to what may be the more important part of this argument: The nature of those cons.
1b. Mechanical Explanations
The Protean’s cons can be explained without changing the D&D mechanics of how the species works.
Not only is the Protean's cons list shorter than the rest, the other species' cons all require substantial bending of the 3.5 rules to dismiss, or aren't really dismissable at all except by saying "This one just doesn't apply." (Or in the case of ANB and CA, bending space/time and genre in a way that I think violates the guessing game.) The Protean's is the only one whose Cons can be explained with established mechanics. (While Rich has said he only uses the mechanics as a framework for the story and isn’t totally faithful to them, the assumption of this thread has been that his statement that “it is possible to guess” means he is faithful to 3.5 when showing the MITD’s powers, and I too use that assumption here.)
Let’s pick up the Uvuudaum again. One of the Uvuudaum’s cons is “His confusion aura should give everyone missing saves around him swirly eyes, but no such thing is visible in the circus scene.” I believe this is significant because it’s a mechanic that should work in OOTS-verse for an MITD scene but would simply have to not work as described in order for the Uvuudaum to fit. Many of the creatures in the FBS list have even more cons of this nature where the mechanics don’t fit the creature in question. (These first two examples are no longer in the FBS, but I wrote this when they were, so I'm leaving them in: The Glabrezu, for example, is too low CR, would not draw a reaction of surprise upon speaking, and is an embodiment of Chaotic Evil, which doesn’t fit what we’ve seen with MITD. The Hunting Horror is too weak and is also damaged by light, which would be a problem considering how often MITD asks for light to be shone on him. Slaads can talk in common and also have already been depicted in the comic.)
The other con on the Uvuudaum’s list is art-based. The Uvuudaum, ANB, and Protean all have art-based cons, but I am willing to consider these as weaker cons than mechanical deficiencies. My main reasons for this are due to the limitations of the stick-figure art system and how to best express MITD’s reactions, and due to Rich not wanting to change how MITD is depicted in strip and thus give away a reveal he’s been planning for what might well be 20 years by the time it happens. (I'll get into more detail about artistic license in a few paragraphs.)
That said, I also believe the Protean’s art-based con is the weakest of the three:
The Uvuudaum’s is “Might not have eyes or mouth (unmentioned in description, not present in pictures).” While I can let the eyes go given that MITD is shrouded in darkness and eyes are the best way to represent his facial expressions, not having a mouth seems like a serious impediment toward eating and speaking, two things the MITD definitely does.
The ANB’s regards the eye color; again, I think it would have been a huge clue to change eye colors on the character as soon as its species was decided, so I’m willing to overlook it (because I think the ANB is disqualified for the reasons I state above anyway).
The Protean’s is “Its constant shapeshifting has not been reflected in a change of MitD (mouth and eyes stay roughly the same).” If you buy the above art explanations, then they will suffice as well for the Protean. If you don’t, however, the Protean has a mechanical explanation that would suffice, in its description in the SRD:
A protean can assume the shape of any combination of physical nondeific creatures at the same time as a free action. In fact, a protean’s form constantly boils, and it requires a move-equivalent action each round for a protean to maintain a certain shape (even if that shape is a combination of several shapes).
Given how little movement we see the MITD make, it’s certainly possible that MITD is constantly using a move action to hold a form with two eyes (and probably a mouth in case someone brings stew). Indeed, given that a move action can be used in place of a standard action, even when we see MITD moving, it’s possible he’s using his standard action to hold form.
I think there are good explanations why MITD might do this (I’ll cover them in “Thematic Relevance”), but for now, what’s important is that a Protean can do this. It doesn’t need to be especially likely or common for a Protean to act this way to fit MITD; it only needs to be that a Protean is capable of doing so. (In addition, taking the effort to hold a more-or-less constant form may be why MITD is always so tired.) This doesn't contradict the Escape scene, either, as MITD may be aware he can copy traits he's seen from others, but not be aware that he can actually use their powers as well-- especially if he doesn't remember he's seen those creatures (I think the Astral Plane scene (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html) may be a hint to this), whereas he sees people with faces every day.
It is also possible that MITD is not doing this, but any extra eyes he manifests continue to remain hidden in the darkness. (Perhaps, say, Redcloak and Xykon set up the magical darkness around MITD so that he always appears with two eyes, because they think he looks weird or ugly or otherwise distracting.) Or perhaps we don't actually see the same two eyes, it just so happens that every time we look at the monster, he happens to have two eyes that appear in the same place from our perspective.
Peelee has a theory (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24575576&postcount=404) that in a world that runs on the rules of storytelling, the camera placement and our view of MitD's eyes will always be set up so as not so spoil the surprise:
If an ever-shifting monster is kept as a surprise, the eyes will not spoil the surprise, because that's how the universe works.
And regarding artistic depiction and license: NobleCuriosity has a good post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23634830&postcount=58) further elaborating on artistic reasons why Rich might depict a Protean MITD as having two consistent eyes-- specifically, the artistic convention of keeping one feature of a shapeshifter consistent so the audience knows which character it is-- as well as other points that supplement the case made in this post, most importantly Rich's artistic needs for portraying the MITD's expressions well and consistently. And Crusher (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25919501&postcount=445) and Grey Wolf (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25919607&postcount=450) have observed that Xykon has facial expressions (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25919619&postcount=453) despite lacking appropriate anatomy; he even appears to close his eyes (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html) when he's "sleeping," or pretending to sleep, even though he does not actually have eyelids. So, clearly, some artistic license is in play for how characters are depicted on the page; we already have one example that strict rules of anatomy are not held to if they interfere with conveying facial expressions and emotions.
In any case, there are multiple plausible explanations here for why we might not see MITD appear as we “expect” a Protean to appear. Rich's exact words on the subject are "Nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what [MITD] is," and appearing with two eyes, while unusual, does not contradict the truth of what a Protean is or can be. I don't know which of the explanations is the correct one, but only one has to be, and I think all of them are reasonably plausible enough that I am satisfied there will be some answer to this question.)
The other con for the Protean is:
Plane shift doesn't fit well with the escape as shown (see 1b: The Escape), and while greater teleport fits slightly better, it requires a timely shapeshift into the exact appropriate creature. There is no evidence that psionic-class creatures have been converted as per EP handbook.
While “timely shapeshift into the exact appropriate creature” might require rolling a natural 20 in a real game of D&D, OOTS is a story. In this story, the unlikely result will happen if it proves best for the story (and I don’t just mean in the sense that Elan believes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html) “a one-in-a-million chance is a sure thing,” but also in what Rich has said himself about writing the story (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=19156714#post19156714)). It may be unlikely, but it is possible without changing the rules of how a Protean works in 3.5.
It is also entirely possible that such a shapeshift does not require a lucky roll, given a Protean's intelligence, wisdom, and knowledge of other creatures. It may not be knowledge MitD consciously realized he had, but by willing himself to save O-Chul, he manifested exactly what he needed to manifest.
In fact, that timely shapeshift explains why MITD doesn’t teleport the hobgoblin in #699 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0699.html): As the hobgoblin says, MITD is “just shouting synonyms at me,” while MITD would have to shapeshift to actually teleport the hobgoblin (and probably still doesn’t realize that’s what he did or how his power works; see “I didn’t do it! And if I did do it, I didn’t know I could do it until I did it!” (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html)).
My point is, the Protean is capable of explaining the Escape scene without adding any new information, qualification, or template, or without bending, fudging, or discarding the mechanical rules of the species. It may be unlikely that your typical Protean would do so, but “unlikely under the rules” is not the same as “impossible under the rules.” Unlike the Uvuudaum’s mechanical con (or the other creatures with even more cons), the rules of a Protean’s mechanics do not have to change to explain anything about MITD.
Thus, both of the potential "cons" of the Protean as a fit do have a possible mechanical explanation without altering any of the rules of 3.5 or how the creature works. I don’t think you can say that about any of the other proposed creatures. Those explanations may be the product of unlikely behavior for a Protean, but stories like this are generally about unlikely people. (It's pretty unlikely that a wildly dysfunctional, somewhat hastily assembled party of mid-level characters would grow into the team that saves the world, but, here we are.)
Here's my summary of the cons of the various FBS monsters; you may find some to be deal-breakers that I don't, and vice-versa, but I believe the Protean's are the least deal-breaking and the most explainable:
The Uvuudaum has no eyes, and MITD definitely has eyes. It also has no mouth, and MitD defintely eats. (These may just both be artistic license in the known drawings, as they are not specified in the Uvuudaum's stat block. But on the other hand, Tzardok's post supports these details (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25919618&postcount=452), or at least supports that the Uvuudaum doesn't have eyes and doesn't need to eat.) MITD also does not cause swirly-eyes confusion in anyone, which an Uvuudaum's aura likely would have done at least once. (It may be plausible that Redcloak and Xykon could resist it, but MITD has been around enough lower-level minions that it becomes a lot less plausible that every single one did.) The confusion aura would also be significant in the circus scene.
The Athasian Nightmare Beast probably doesn't exist, at least not in the form that fits the big scenes.
The white/black Slaad's reproduction cycle doesn't fit MITD's comments on his dad, and the age he would have to be and stages of evolution he would have to go through to be a white/black Slaad don't fit with him being a juvenile. It should also not surprise the Stereotypical Big Game Hunters that a Slaad could talk in common. As already portrayed in comic (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1147.html), a Slaad is also not the kind of creature that would cause a learned wizard to say "I've never seen anything like it!" On top of that, a Slaad has already been portrayed in the comic, and I don't think Rich would do that if the Slaad was his planned reveal. (This is still a story first, and I don't think Rich would undercut a big moment in the story that he's been planning for years just for a joke about a pregnant deva.)
Redcloak knows what MITD is, and it's doubtful he would be unsure if there were psionics in this world (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html) if MITD was a Xenocrysth. Also, a Xenocrysth kind of just looks like a cool big serpent, hardly the kind of monster that would cause a learned wizard to say "I've never seen anything like it!"
The Carbosilicate Amorph is from an entirely different work with an entirely different basis for its world. I don't think anything from outside D&D in a world that runs roughly on D&D 3.5 rules could be "possible to guess." Even if that's not a deal-breaker for you, it would, as Doug Lampert explains (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25919941&postcount=463), be very difficult for the Amorph to send O-Chul and Vaarsuvius where MITD did in the Escape scene without knowing Vaarsuvius came from there. In addition, the Amorph roughly looks like a giant pile of poo, which is not something I could buy a wizard would have "never seen anything like."
The Protean normally wouldn't appear as two eyes in the dark. But it could. It would have to partially shapeshift into the right creature with the right power to teleport Vaarsuvius and O-Chul away. But it could.
I think the Protean is the only one of these creatures whose presence makes sense in every scene and with everything we know about MITD, and whose drawbacks can be explained as possible, albeit unlikely, under the rules, rather than the rules having to change to accommodate them.
So I believe the drawbacks against the Protean have been addressed above. In this section, I’ll talk about the Protean as actively the best fit for the big scenes.
Part 2: The Positive Case
I believe that not only does the Protean fit all the big scenes, but it generally goes beyond meeting what the agreed minimum requirements to fit them are, and in fact is often the best fit for them of all the creatures on the FBS. I’ll give some examples.
2a. The Tower Scene
Now, 3Power actually gave me an idea with this one a while back (I think in thread XII), although perhaps not the idea he expected. In his case for a creature (the Ha-Naga, IIRC), he suggested that the Tower scene is a joke that can be handwaved away, a bit of Looney Tunes cartoon physics. Well, I agree with the Looney Tunes part, but come to a different conclusion. The physics of the scene are so ridiculous-- MITD tries to hit Miko as softly as possible and knocks her and her horse through the wall and some substantial distance away-- that it's far more likely that MITD has preposterously high strength than that he barely meets the threshold we've established. Thus, the higher the strength, the better fit the creature. Every candidate listed in the FBS list with D&D stats has a strength in the 30s (except the Black Slaad which is listed as 42). The Protean has STR 53. It is significantly higher strength than any of the other FBS creatures. It is thus by far the most likely species on the list that a creature of such could attempt to hit someone as weakly as possible and still send them cartoonishly flying through a solid wall and hundreds of feet away.
2b. The Circus Scene
I think the sheer variety of reactions in the Circus Scene make far more sense for a Protean than anything else on the FBS list. Most of the other creatures on the FBS list should be terrifying, sure, but we see everything from horror to nausea to fascination (both with it being "beautiful" and "never seen anything like it") to the goblin kids cheering him on. The Protean's constantly shifting form is the best fit to cause all of those reactions (including its 34 CHA qualifying it as "beautiful" in someone's eyes); anything that keeps a consistent form is more likely to evoke similar reactions from each audience member, rather than such a wide variety of reactions. Individual reactions from the crowd can be explained by other creatures' traits (Hunting Horror's stench of Nausea, Uvuudaum's confusion aura if you really fudge it, they could all be described as "horrible"), but only the Protean has the traits necessary to cover such a gamut of reactions.
In addition, I also believe that a Protean best explains why the goblin children are always excited to go back to the circus-- they get a new experience every time.
This doesn’t conflict with any of the explanations for MITD’s eyes; MITD is told by his circus handler that what he does every show is “stand on the stage and get gawked at.” If those are his instructions, then he is probably not using a move action to hold a form when he’s on stage, merely standing still. (We don’t see his eyes when he’s on stage, after all-- we see that entire scene from his perspective until he goes back into the darkness.) Even if he was holding a face, it could just be the face he's holding, and the rest of his body continues to boil and shift. (And, of course, he may not need to be holding a face at all, per the established artistic license.)
While the Escape scene is not one where the Protean’s ability to perform it stands out compared to other species, it does have the capacity to do so (as I explained in part 1), and it’s really a binary yes/no question as to whether a species can. The Protean can.
Items 4-7 in the list of characteristics necessary to be on the FBS list aren’t scenes, they are traits, and the Protean does possess them all.
For the record, it’s not in the Big Scenes list, but the Stomp scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) would also fit a Protean, given that a Protean can manifest a limb to stomp with, that MITD is later shown in the Escape scene to be capable of great powers when it focuses intently, and that the Protean has a ridiculously high strength, the highest on the FBS list. (Note that MITD’s reaction to his stomp is, similar to his defense of the Escape scene, that he didn’t know he could do that; this also fits for a Protean that’s just discovering it can shapeshift into certain creatures to do specific things.)
So, the Protean isn’t lacking in any of the characteristics necessary for the FBS list, and in two of the three big scenes is the best fit for the scene of any creature proposed.
I believe that covers the case for why the Protean is the best fit for the MITD mechanically. Now, since OOTS is a story, I want to touch on the storytelling aspect of MITD’s species.
Part 3: The Thematic Case
While the species of the MITD is a guessing game that can be deduced by clues, I also believe that, first and foremost, Burlew is telling a story with The Order of the Stick, and that his criteria for choosing MITD’s species in the first place would involve that species being thematically relevant to the story.
Of course, it helps if we agree on what that story is. From my perspective, there are two key elements here:
3a. MITD’s relationship with Xykon and Redcloak
MITD, for the first six hundred-odd strips or so, seems to believe Xykon and Redcloak are his friends (despite the evidence to the contrary). Given MITD’s love of social gatherings like tea parties (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html), and the stress he feels from performing in the circus (let alone how people who’ve seen him openly call him ugly, horrifying, etc.), he’s probably someone who wants to be liked, likes to have friends, struggles to fit in, and is insecure enough that he thinks anyone who will accept him is his friend. Darth Paul has a good post on this topic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23690023&postcount=186), to which I'll add that he didn't leave the circus because he didn't "[want] to be rude about it." MITD is a people-pleaser.
This is my explanation for why he constantly holds his form to have two eyes: His two best friends have two eyes each (or, you know, did) and he wants to fit in. Grey Wolf had an excellent post in the previous thread detailing this idea further, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23782161&postcount=811) and expanding another thematic point in favor of the Protean: Part of MITD’s struggle has been, as an ever-changing creature, to resist change in order to fit in and find friendship. It would also explain why MITD is perceived as being so lazy; if he's always using a move action to hold a form, it takes him twice as long to do things as other people. (Of course, if you accept one of the other explanations for his depiction, he doesn’t even have to be holding a form.)
3b. MITD’s relationship with O-Chul
I think the interactions between MITD and O-Chul are the most revealing parts for the theme of MITD’s story. Given those interactions and how MITD has changed since then, here’s what I think: The story of the MITD is that of a juvenile growing up, someone who is content to be led around by other people and have them think for him and give him orders as long as he thinks they’re his friends. O-Chul begins to prod him into challenging those ideas, not only the idea that Xykon and Redcloak are his friends (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) but also the idea that he should just do what other people say and not think for himself. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html)
O-Chul’s prodding and friendship leads the MITD to save him in the Escape Scene, and from then on MITD has been following his own agenda independent of Xykon and Redcloak (and apparently without their awareness). The MITD’s journey is one of realizing the things O-Chul has taught him, realizing the immense things he is capable of when he tries, focuses, and follows his own conscience rather than the orders of others.
(The Protean’s high stat block also explains why he is able to learn and change so quickly; we’ve (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) seen signs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html) of his intelligence (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html) in the comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html), he’s just never really applied himself before #661. Intelligence and wisdom are the lowest of the Protean’s stats, but they’re still 20 and 21, respectively, which is still remarkably high when compared to typical creature stats, aside from adventuring wizards and clerics. Plus, the Protean has Detect Thoughts at will, which would work to explain how MITD has acquired some of his knowledge.)
The reason I think the Protean is the most relevant is because it is the one suggestion for the FBS that has the power to will itself to change its physical form, not merely its inner character. In fact, from what I can tell, the Protean can consciously choose creatures to shapeshift or partially shapeshift into. (This explains how a Protean MITD achieves the Escape Scene, the first step in his self-actualization.)
Thus, I believe that the MITD's journey is, quite literally, toward the lesson of “You can be whatever you want if you put your mind to it,” and that the Protean is the creature that fits this theme. (Other people have expressed this idea in other posts better than I am here, but searching in threads seems to be somewhat broken right now on the forums, so I couldn’t find those posts.) This also explains why O-Chul doesn’t think the MITD would believe his theory on what he is (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1042.html) (if he is correct); for someone who has been as passive as MITD has his whole life, learning he is not just capable of setting his own course, but in fact a creature of great and immense power, capable of virtually anything, would indeed come as a shock.
Even if you don’t find this particularly convincing, I can’t think of any thematic relevance to the story that any of the other FBS creatures hold. There’s always the more general “Even pure Evil can be changed by a resolute Goodness,” but that doesn’t particularly apply for any creature more than the others (or not enough to outweigh their cons), plus that theme makes MITD’s story more about O-Chul than himself. Based on some of Rich’s comments (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?412425-The-irony-of-bozzok-being-right&p=19189873#post19189873) about character choices (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?412425-The-irony-of-bozzok-being-right/page2&p=19193861#post19193861), I believe MITD’s story is about his decisions, not simply as a foil to show O-Chul’s Goodness (which we’ve seen many times over anyway).
The MITD’s story is about finding the willpower to follow your own heart and mind and change who you are. What better represents the ability to make that change than a Protean, a creature that can literally physically change what it is?
Thus, in addition to the Protean having the strongest D&D 3.5 mechanical argument for species fit, I believe it also has the most thematic relevance to MITD’s story.
Conclusion
In conclusion: After reviewing all the available evidence, I believe the MITD is a Protean. I believe Protean is the species that is both the best positive fit and least negative fit for all of MITD’s scenes: That is to say, its combination of powers best explain MITD's displayed behavior, and it is also the species that least requires any fudging or bending of the D&D 3.5 rules (or the rules of spacetime, or the rules of copyright) to work. I also believe, perhaps more importantly, that Protean makes the most sense for MITD’s character journey and growing awareness of his own capabilities. I’ve reviewed the decade-plus of research and argumentation that has gone into compiling this thread, and I believe this is where the evidence points, substantially and better to the Protean than any other creature proposed.
3Power
2023-11-13, 07:05 PM
Strip 100 came out Sep 2, 2004, so no creature first published after that time can be considered.
The following books meet this criteria. Bolded ones have confirmed monster sections.
Player's Handbook: Core Rulebook I July 2, 2000
Dungeon Master's Guide: Core Rulebook II September 1, 2000
Monster Manual: Core Rulebook III October 1, 2000
Monster Manual II September 1, 2002
Player's Handbook: Core Rulebook I v.3.5 July 1, 2003
Dungeon Master's Guide: Core Rulebook II v.3.5 July 1, 2003
Monster Manual: Core Rulebook III v.3.5 July 1, 2003
Monster Manual III April 1, 2003
Arms and Equipment Guide March 1, 2003 Mounts and Transport Creatures. Includes a few CR 20 but none fit.
Book of Challenges: Dungeon Rooms, Puzzles, and Traps June 1, 2002
Book of Exalted Deeds October 1, 2003
Book of Vile Darkness October 1, 2002
Complete Divine May 1, 2004 (Bogun only, doesn't fit.)
Complete Warrior December 1, 2003
Defenders of the Faith May 1, 2001
Deities and Demigods February 1, 2002 Olympian, Egyptian, and Asgardian Monsters only, none fit.
Draconomicon November 1, 2003
Enemies and Allies October 1, 2001 - You'd think so, but no. Just standard monsters with class levels.
Epic Level Handbook July 1, 2002
Expanded Psionics Handbook April 1, 2004
Fiend Folio April 1, 2003
Ghostwalk June 1, 2003 None fit.
Hero Builder's Guidebook December 1, 2000
Manual of the Planes September 1, 2001
Masters of the Wild February 1, 2002 Dire and Legendary animals, none fit.
Miniatures Handbook October 1, 2003
Oriental Adventures October 1, 2001
Planar Handbook July 1, 2004
Psionics Handbook March 1, 2001
Races of Stone August 1, 2004 192 Races only, none fit.
Savage Species February 1, 2003 Small section, most of this is templates and monster classes (as well as prestiege classes for monsters.
Song and Silence December 1, 2001
Stronghold Builder's Guidebook May 1, 2002
Sword and Fist January 1, 2001
Tome and Blood July 1, 2001
Unearthed Arcana February 1, 2004 Races only, none fit.
Faerun:
Faiths and Pantheons May 2002
Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 2001
Lords of Darkness 2001
Magic of Faerûn 2001 Very few
Monsters of Faerûn 2001
Player's Guide to Faerûn March 2004
Races of Faerûn March 2003 A few.
Serpent Kingdoms July 2004
Silver Marches 2002 Very few
Unapproachable East May 2003
Underdark October 2003
Eberron:
Eberron Campaign Setting June 2004
Dragonlance:
Dragonlance Campaign Settling, August 2003
Bestiary of Krynn, 2004 Revised 2006
Age of Mortals 2003 (Races only)
Towers of High Sorcery 2004
Magazines
Dragon Magazine: 274-322
Dungeon Magazine: 82 to 113
Crusher
2023-11-14, 06:20 PM
Tracking MitD guesses
We've been thinking about the MitD's identity for quite some time now. The unmasking is probably not nigh, but its definitely getting closer (since time only moves forward, as far as I know). Since these threads sometimes run for a long time (a recent one ran for almost 2 years), its entirely possible the great unveiling will occur before this thread finishes so its time to get formal about it.
This post will track the guesses of anyone who cares to make a guess, along with when they made the guess (and I'll probably track guess histories as well, unless people object). If you want to make a guess, you can either post it in the thread or message me. I'm pretty thorough about reading the thread, but I miss things occasionally so feel free to remind me.
For now, I'll organize them chronologically by guess but I may switch to alphabetical. Date is whatever day the forum tells me it was when the note was posted. Also, I'm already getting tired of typing out "Athasian Nightmare Beast", so it will be abbreviated ANB.
You can only guess up to three candidates because I revel in cruelty. Actually, that’s not true, I don’t revel in cruelty. Cruelty should be its own reward.
List of guesses
DaggerPen - Protean 5/21/16, Protean > Hunting Horror 5/28/16, Protean > ANB > Hunting Horror 4/29/2018
Ranagrande - Extremely heavily templated Giant Space Hamster 5/22/16
Grey_Wolf_c - Protean > Zodar > Aboleth 5/22/16, Protean > Slaad > Zodar 6/22/22
Kish - Infernal > Slaad 5/22/16, Infernal > Slaad > Protean 7/17/16, Slaad > Protean 8/31/18
Ron Miel - Púca 5/22/16
Sniffnoy - Uvuudaum 5/22/16
TraceHyde - Protean > Barghest > Something copywrited 5/23/16
Magesmiley - Prismatic Dragon (very young or young) 5/23/16
Michaeler - heavily templated Protean 5/23/16, young Protean = something Snarl-related (perhaps a Protean) 4/20/2018
RWeird - Protean > Neh-Thalggu > Uvuudaum 5/23/16
nihil8r - Glabrezu 5/24/16
Yanisa - ANB 5/27/16
Crusher - ANB > Prismasaurus > Glabrezu 5/27/16, ANB > Glabrezu > Neh-Thalggu 6/22/2016, ANB > Glabrezu > Slaad 1/11/17, Slaad > Glabrezu 1/23/17, Slaad > Glabrezu > Xenocrysth 7/16/20, Slaad > Glabrezu > ANB 10/26/21, Slaad > ANB > Very Old Sapphire Dragon 7/6/22, Slaad > Ancient Sapphire Dragon 7/6/22 (yes, same day), Slaad > Ancient Sapphire Dragon > Loculi 10/12/22, Slaad > Ancient Sapphire Dragon > Glabrezu 7/7/23
HarryMcB - Protean 5/28/16
Lord Bingo - Zodar 5/29/16
Lombard - Couatl 5/31/16, Li Lung (templated) 7/11/18, Li Lung with Wilder levels 4/10/19
Quartz - ANB 5/31/16, ANB = Uvuudaum 4/25/20
halfeye - Boojum 6/1/16, Black Hole > Boojum 7/24/18, Nightcrawler 3/19/19, Boojum > Nightcrawler > Black Hole 5/1/20
Ruck - Protean > ANB > Snorlax 6/2/16, Protean > Uvuudaum > ANB 12/3/19, Protean 9/1/23
GM_3826 - Protean > ANB > Uvuudaum 6/2/16
dancrilis - Grey Render 6/3/16
Vendanna - Half-dragon 6/3/16, Half-dragon/demon 11/15/17
IrishMusician - Protean 6/22/16
thereaper - Protean 6/22/16
ReaderAt2046 - Protean > Zodar > Carbosilicate Amorph 6/22/16, Protean > ANB > Carbosilicate Amorph 7/17/16, ANB > Carbosilicate Amorph 11/17/17, Xenocrysth > Carbosilicate Amorph 8/1/20, Protean 10/10/23
theinsulabot - ANB 6/22/16
Onyavar - Protean 6/22/16
Dark Matter - Protean 6/22/16
Humanist Geek - Protean > ANB > something templated 6/22/16
littlebum2002 - Protean 6/23/16, Slaad > Protean 8/25/2017
voiceofreason - the author 7/1/16
SirKazum - Slaad 7/12/16
Bestigle - Protean 7/12/16
ShiningWrath - ANB 7/17/16, Dread Linnorm (runty, minus a head) 4/28/18
Qwertystop - Protean > Zodar 7/17/16
Hardcore - Imentesh (its a kind of Protean) 7/17/16, Snorlax > Protean 5/1/20, Imentesh > Snorlax 10/24/22
Darth V - Protean 7/20/16, Protean > White Slaad turning into Black Slaad upon reveal > Snorlax 10/18/22
Peelee - Protean 7/20/16
Throknor - Uvuudaum > Glabrezu 7/28/16, Aboleth Mage -> Uvuudaum > Glabrezu 8/5/20
Knight.Anon - Young Titan 8/3/16
Rosstin - Protean 11/22/16
Outliar - ANB 11/23/16
Darth Paul - Slaad 1/20/17, Slaad > ANB 11/19/17, ANB > Uvuudaum 1/12/19, ANB > Protean, 1/13/19, Protean 3/31/19
Kythia - Slaad 8/9/17
Sniccups - Slaad = ANB 10/15/17
Thermophille - Slaad (White > Black) 11/6/17
Monation - Protean 11/15/17
Zenzis - Glabrezu 11/15/17
Shashakiro - ANB 11/15/17, Slaad 8/28/18
Clockshock - ANB 11/20/17
Djinnocide - Enveloper 7/6/18
Jaxzan Proditor- Protean > Zodar 7/11/18
godsflunky - Protean (because of the nice character-development resonances) 7/11/18
woweedd - Protean = Zodar 7/12/18
redgoblin - Hephaestus - 7/18/18
Father Miles - ANB > Protean > Snorlax 7/19/18
3Power - Ha-Naga 7/28/18, Ha-Naga > anything not on FBS list > Zodar 3/20/19
Calavera - Zeus 8/15/18
Synesthesy - “pure” Black Slaad 9/16/18
Qzin - Snarl, Jr 9/29/18
SpoonR - Baby Deity 9/29/18
Riarra - Slaad > Protean 9/30/18
EmperorSarda - Kandra/Mistwraith 10/22/18
thelivingmonkey - Glabrezu 10/25/18, Protean > Glabrezu > Snorlax 3/13/19
Mightymosy - Something not yet guessed > Protean > Carbosilicate Amorph 1/8/19, Something not yet guessed > Protean 3/31/19
NobleCuriosity - Protean > ANB 1/12/19
The Aboleth - ANB 3/5/19, Protean > ANB 12/5/19
Son of a Lich! - Protean 3/7/19
Mariele - Protean = ANB 3/14/19
Squire Doodad - Protean > Slaad 3/21/19, Protean > Xenocrysth 10/15/21
Jineon - 9-times blinded Beholder 3/29/19
Sir_Norbert - Uvuudaum 3/29/19
cinderrain - Protean 3/29/19
KrankenWagon - ANB > Black Slaad 3/29/19
Angrith - ANB > Hunting Horror 3/30/19
Mad Humanist - Protean 3/30/19
locksmith of io - Protean > ANB 3/31/19
gooddragon1 - Galeb Duhr 6/18/19
BasilisksSoldier - ANB - 8/30/19
pwning doodes - Uvuudaum 9/25/19
Fish - thesaurus 10/1/19
Schroeswald - Red Cloak's niece 10/1/19
Rollin - Protean 12/5/19
DLcygnet - Protean 12/10/19
Scizor - Protean 12/16/19, Xenocrysth > Protean 8/3/20
Iskar Jarak - Protean 4/1/20
trtl - Protean > Gazebo 4/4/20
Emanick - Frankenstein 4/5/20, "Something not guessed" > White Slaad > Protean 10/15/21
DavidBV - Prismatic Dragon - Kinda guessed on 5/10/20 and kinda guessed on 1/20/10 (prior to the contest starting, making it kind of a gray area)
Thales - Protean - 6/15/20
Kastor - ANB (the old one) 6/18/20, Corpse Tearer Linnorm 11/10/22
catagent101 - Protean > Snorlax - 6/23/20, Protean > Xenocrysth > Snorlax 7/16/20
LadyEowen - ANB 6/24/20
Doug Lampert - Wile E. Coyote > Carbosilicate Amorph > Redcloak's Niece 6/24/20, Sith Wile E. Coyote > Sith Carbosilicate Amorph > Sith Redcloak's Niece 12/15/23
JonahFalcon - Very Young Obsidian Dragon 7/5/20
Neponde - Protean 7/16/20, Appropriately templated potted plant > Protean 12/15/23
Charybdis - Protean 7/18/20
Ariko - Xenocrysth 7/19/20
Jaziggy - Xenocrysth > Protean 7/21/20, Loculi 6/28/22
Baine - Protean 8/4/20
Blue Dragon - Snarl Jr 3/22/21
Timy- Protean 12/1/21, Slaad (Black or White) 3/15/24
Jervis - a small psychic giant 6/16/22, Linnorm 6/18/22
chy03001 - Pit Fiend 6/21/22
IthilanorStPete - Protean 6/22/22
Eric the White - Barghest (version from Dragon #26) 6/22/22
Carl - Neh-Thalggu 6/23/22
silversaraph - baby or young ANB 6/27/22
Laurentio III - Loculi > Protean > amnesiac Proteus (from Marvel comics) 8/4/22, Loculi = Protean = Glabrezu 8/10/22
ff7hero - Slaad 8/4/22
diremage - Glabrezu 8/20/22
puzzler7 - Protean > Slaad 9/28/22
Elanfanforlife - Protean > Loculi = Snorlax 10/3/2022, Protean > Loculi = Slaad 9/1/23
Zenfrodo - Onyx Dragon 10/10/2022
Psyren - Protean 10/19/22
TaiLiu - Protean 10/26/22
Mike Havran - Protean 12/7/22
brian 333 - Dao 12/22/22
Tzardok - Templated Cipactli 12/22/22
Tubercular Ox - Hunting Horror 12/22/22
Beni-Kujaku - Psionic Old Li Lung 12/28/22
InvisibleBison - Protean 3/1/23
georgie_leech - Protean 3/1/23
Precure - Protean with Sorcerer levels 3/7/23
Flange - Wingless Wonder 3/7/23
World Illusion - Pseudonatural Marid 4/22/23
Atomburster - Protean 4/22/23
Flumphs4ever - Goristro 5/13/23
Elliot0 - Glabrezu 6/21/23
dartom - half-dragon Glabrezu 7/1/23
Ubiquity - Protean > Uvuudaum 8/30/23
Emberlily - Protean - 9/5/23
Metastachydium - Blood&Honey!Pooh Bear>=Epic!Slaad 9/5/23
Argis13 - Therblewurkersaurus > The Moon of the Planet in the Rift > An ant with the right backstory 11/15/23
Errorname - [Something we haven't guessed yet] > the Protean > [every other proposed monster] 11/17/23
Gift Jeraff - Protean > Hunting Horror > The Big Show 11/19/2023
flat_footed - Protean 11/20/23
mashlagoo1982 - Turaglas 11/20/23
Somniloquist - Uvuudaum 11/23/23
Sky_Schemer - Slaad 11/23/23
DreadedHaggard - Protean 11/25/23
Appchoy - "early edition Titan" 11/29/23
I will also compile a list of the top vote-getters, and running totals for their scores, which I will update infrequently. If you have one guess, it gets 1 point. Two ordered guesses split 0.6/0.4 and three ordered guesses split 0.5/0.3/0.2. Two non-ordered guesses "It is either X or Y, with no favorite" will be awarded 0.5/0.5 and three non-ordered guesses will get 0.33/0.33/0.33. Guessing "X is my first choice then Y and Z are tied for second" will be scored 0.5/0.25/0.25. And "X or Y are tied for my first choice, but Z is clearly my 3rd choice" will be scored... Um, hmm. My normal methodology falls apart with that but my back-up methodology gives a breakdown of 0.4/0.4/0.2. That feels about right and I'll probably go with it but if it comes up, I'll think about it more.
If you guess more than three, I'll discard the 4th and after if possible. If not possible ("its one of these 5...") then I'll exclude the entire guess.
In the ancient past, when dinosaurs roamed the forums, I used a modestly different scoring system. However, it had a slight improportionality in points awarded based on numbers of monsters guessed. Over time it slowly started bugging me, so I eventually fixed it and here we are.
Update - Last updated 11/29/23 (because I'm American and will stand for none of this days/months/years ordered-thinking nonsense)
8+ months since the last update and there's been lots of voting. As usual, most of it went to the Protean, but enough went to other candidates (along with people changing their votes) to shake up the standings a bit! Also, I've added a few more candidates of various sorts with more votes than the "you must be taller than the Barghest/Nel-Thaggu" benchmark, but had been excluded for various reasons. What are they? You'll see! Isn't suspense fun?
To begin, the Protean continues extending its giant lead by leaps and bounds. 142 people have voted, so in theory there are 142 "points" of votes out there. However, roughly 23.5 points have gone to candidates receiving under 1.30, and thus not on the league table, plus a little is lost to rounding, meaning the candidates in the ever-expanding league table have received a total of 118.49 points. The point being, the Protean isn't quite half the votes given to league table candidates (43.2%) but the goal is in sight. In the interests of calling things as they are, the Protean isn't truly in the lead pack. It is substantially ahead of everyone else and has been for quite some time.
The more accurately named "secondary pack" had a shake-up as a flurry of votes has come in for the Slaad! It has moved into second ahead of the rock-steady ANB, which has neither gained nor lost votes in over 2 years. Last change for it was somewhere between 7/20 and 10/21. After a surge earlier in the year, the "Dragon" quasi-candidate lost a little steam and has sunk to the bottom of this group (as a quasi-candidate it does not have a position ranking), though it does remain comfortably in the secondary pack.
Modestly trailing them is the small "post-secondary" pack. The Glabrezu in 4th and the Uvuudaum in 5th both saw substantial voting gains and are extremely close (the Glabrezu also passed the Uvuudaum). While they clearly are behind the secondary pack, these gains have moved them sufficiently ahead of their former neighbors to warrant their own mini-grouping.
The Uvuudaum is now in the lead in the secondary pack, followed closely by the Glabrezu, the "Deity" quasi-candidate, the Xenocrysth, and the Zodar. It hasn't been long since the last update and there haven't been all that many votes (which were mostly for the Protean) so its not surprising these candidates were fairly static.
The new "main pack" is led (in the sense that those ahead of it pulled away enough to form their own group, while it remained static) by the redoubtable "Deity" quasi-candidate. Narrowly behind it is the first of the new candidates. I've tried to phrase this in a way (or bury it deeply enough that no one will ever see it) to avoid getting me into trouble, but someone let me know if I've failed. Anyway, trailing closely is the "Copywrited" character quasi-candidate, a grouping of all candidates I thought were copywrited. You can probably guess who most of them are.
Shortly behind the new quasi-candidate is old favorite Zodar, which in turn is followed by another new candidate: the Snarl (technically, anything Snarl-related). The Snarl has been a mainstay of guesses from the start, despite The Giant saying MitD isn't something he made up. Saying it includes anything "Snarl-related" side-steps that and probably technically makes it a quasi-candidate but I feel like the Snarl should get a real spot just for tradition's sake. Bringing up the rear of the main pack is the Xenocrysth which was a fun dark-horse candidate a while back but has slowly been sinking ever since.
Finally, we end with the "just glad to be here pack". Leading the group in 9th after some new voting is the Hunting Horror and behind it is the third of our new candidates, the "Field" quasi-candidate which is "anything that hasn't been guessed yet". Technically that guess shrinks over time since I'm not tracking which candidates have been added since each of those guesses was made, seems like a lot of work. Instead, I'm defining it as "anything that hasn't been guessed as of the reveal". A variety of votes along these lines have been made, such as "Anything on the FBS list" and given time I might end up including those as well in some fashion, even though they're pretty different. We'll see what future me thinks.
Trailing the "Field" quasi-candidate by the smallest gap on the table (1.60 vs 1.58) is the Loculi. It also has the honor of being the final candidate to beat the Barghest/Nel-Thaggu cut-off (1.30 votes) and thus bringing the list to a close.
As a reminder, the "Dragon", "Deity", "Copywrited" and "Field" quasi-candidates aren't specific candidates but are instead aggregations of all votes cast for any candidates in each broadly-defined category. They're grouped, added up, and presented because I find it mildly interesting.
The ranking currently goes:
#1 - Protean (or some variant of Protean) - 51.13
#2 - Slaad - 12.48
#3 - ANB - 12.3
#X - "Dragon" - 10.3
#4 - Glabrezu - 5.7
#5 - Uvuudaum - 5.6
#Y - "Deity" - 3.0
#C - "Copywrited" - 2.8
#6 - Zodar - 2.7
#7 - Snarl - 2.5
#8 - Xenocrysth - 2.3
#9 - Hunting Horror - 1.9
#F - "Field" - 1.6
#10 - Loculi - 1.58
#11T - Barghest - 1.3
#11T - Nel-thaggu - 1.3
Argis13
2023-11-14, 09:56 PM
Having re-read through all the threads up to 12 at this point (I find it entertaining), a scene struck me, while considering the Zodar.
MitD: Cool! So what's your name?
Redcloak: They call me"Redcloak".
MitD: Really? Why?
Redcloak: …
Redcloak: Because I wear black armor.
Note that there are two goblin children in the scene, familiar with the MitD’s apperance, and neither comment on this.
If MitD looked like a man wearing black armor, I’d expect him to say “So do I! We can be black armor buddies!”; “Cool! Can I be called Redcloak too?” or something of the sort, or for one of the goblin children to comment on it. Therefore, I’d expect Rich to not include that particular crack, substituting it for “Because I wear a gold necklace,” or another kind of joke, if MitD was a Zodar. It’s nothing definitive, but I thought it was a piece of evidence against a strong candidate, beyond what was already considered in the circus scene.
In light of this information, I have only guessed our other strong candidates. @Crusher, put me down for
Therblewurkersaurus > The Moon of the Planet in the Rift > An ant with the right backstory
LadyEowyn
2023-11-14, 10:51 PM
I still think O-Chul’s statement “If I told
him [what he is], I don’t think he’d believe me, either” doesn’t work well with the Protean, because if the MITD is an incredibly versatile shapeshifter who needs to expend effort to not shapeshift, he’s presumably aware of that fact.
That comic also suggests that what O-Chul has seen of MITD is enough to form an educated guess of its identity.
EDIT: On another note, regarding MITD saying something’s been different “the last few days” in him not being super hungry, I feel like we should amend the line speculating it could be due to the climate. The timing doesn’t line up: Team Evil have been in the Arctic for all the time it took the OOTS to cross the ocean after Book 7, and for the entire plot of Book 6, and V told the paladins via Sending that they were still two days away at the end of Book 6.
Given the timing mentioned, it seems likely that there’s some specific event that spurred the change, not just natural aging producing a coincidence; that kind of specificity re: timing feels like a hint from the author.
I think it might coincide with about how long the paladins have been there (some connection with O-Chul, if the theories about MITD becoming his paladin mount are correct?), and about how long Team Evil has been doing several tombs per day rather than just one (could EXP gain or some other effects of combat play a role?), but I’m having trouble working out the exact timing.
EDIT 2: Here’s the paladins’ arrival at Kraagor’s Tomb, while OOTS are en route to Firmament, in the middle of the Book 6 plot. https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1042.html
Argis13
2023-11-14, 11:11 PM
I still think O-Chul’s statement “If I told
him [what he is], I don’t think he’d believe me, either” doesn’t work well with the Protean, because if the MITD is an incredibly versatile shapeshifter who needs to expend effort to not shapeshift, he’s presumably aware of that fact.
That comic also suggests that what O-Chul has seen of MITD is enough to form an educated guess of its identity.
Eh. Subjective, obviously, but I've always seen this as more foreshadowing than a clue. If O'Chul knows the answer is "It's a (Protean/ANB/Hunting Horror/Snorlax) which is {Snarl Jr./The Soul of the World/A Godchild/My Lost Paladin Mount}," the unbelievable part is in the {curly brackets} rather than the (round brackets). I don't think any of the FBS list are unbelievable, heck, most of 3e is believable to MitD given his credulity, unless it's connected to something of grand significance. This makes me see it as a difficult thing to use as a firm criterion for MitD's species, as it could be my interpretation, rather than yours.
LadyEowyn
2023-11-14, 11:25 PM
Don’t know what you mean about “O-Chul’s lost paladin mount” - O-Chul’s never had enough paladin levels to have one, thanks to starting out as a fighter and only becoming a paladin later on. The theory is that next time he levels up he’ll get MITD.
I agree it’s subjective, but protean works less well for me with that quote than some of the other ones.
Argis13
2023-11-14, 11:29 PM
Don’t know what you mean about “O-Chul’s lost paladin mount” - O-Chul’s never had enough paladin levels to have one, thanks to starting out as a fighter and only becoming a paladin later on. The theory is that next time he levels up he’ll get MITD.
I agree it’s subjective, but protean works less well for me with that quote than some of the other ones.
It was half Snorlax joke (Paladins use pokeballs to summon their mounts in OOTS), half an example of something the MitD wouldn't believe. (An "Elan I am your Father" moment)
LadyEowyn
2023-11-14, 11:37 PM
Oh, okay! :D I don’t know Pokemon, so I didn’t get the joke.
I still think O-Chul’s statement “If I told
him [what he is], I don’t think he’d believe me, either” doesn’t work well with the Protean, because if the MITD is an incredibly versatile shapeshifter who needs to expend effort to not shapeshift, he’s presumably aware of that fact.
From my own point of view, I think the combination of the Protean's sheer power level and the number of abilities it can access is why O-Chul's statement works for me. MitD has largely been regarded as (and largely proven to be, until the events at the end of DSTP) passive and incompetent, so he might find it unbelievable just what and how much he is actually capable of.
Indeed, the creature in the darkness explicitly didn't believe he could work magic after he'd teleported O-Chul away. One thing he's unambiguously not, is anywhere near aware of his vast power, however many people have told him about it.
Precure
2023-11-15, 07:49 AM
Can we add the guesses list in alphabetic order, like this?
3Power - Ha-Naga 7/28/18, Ha-Naga > anything not on FBS list > Zodar 3/20/19
Angrith - ANB > Hunting Horror 3/30/19
Ariko - Xenocrysth 7/19/20
Atomburster - Protean 4/22/23
Baine - Protean 8/4/20
BasilisksSoldier - ANB - 8/30/19
Beni-Kujaku - Psionic Old Li Lung 12/28/22
Bestigle - Protean 7/12/16
Blue Dragon - Snarl Jr 3/22/21
brian 333 - Dao 12/22/22
Calavera - Zeus 8/15/18
Carl - Neh-Thalggu 6/23/22
catagent101 - Protean > Snorlax - 6/23/20, Protean > Xenocrysth > Snorlax 7/16/20
Charybdis - Protean 7/18/20
chy03001 - Pit Fiend 6/21/22
cinderrain - Protean 3/29/19
Clockshock - ANB 11/20/17
Crusher - ANB > Prismasaurus > Glabrezu 5/27/16, ANB > Glabrezu > Neh-Thalggu 6/22/2016, ANB > Glabrezu > Slaad 1/11/17, Slaad > Glabrezu 1/23/17, Slaad > Glabrezu > Xenocrysth 7/16/20, Slaad > Glabrezu > ANB 10/26/21, Slaad > ANB > Very Old Sapphire Dragon 7/6/22, Slaad > Ancient Sapphire Dragon 7/6/22 (yes, same day), Slaad > Ancient Sapphire Dragon > Loculi 10/12/22, Slaad > Ancient Sapphire Dragon > Glabrezu 7/7/23
DaggerPen - Protean 5/21/16, Protean > Hunting Horror 5/28/16, Protean > ANB > Hunting Horror 4/29/2018
dancrilis - Grey Render 6/3/16
Dark Matter - Protean 6/22/16
Darth Paul - Slaad 1/20/17, Slaad > ANB 11/19/17, ANB > Uvuudaum 1/12/19, ANB > Protean, 1/13/19, Protean 3/31/19
Darth V - Protean 7/20/16, Protean > White Slaad turning into Black Slaad upon reveal > Snorlax 10/18/22
dartom - half-dragon Glabrezu 7/1/23
DavidBV - Prismatic Dragon - Kinda guessed on 5/10/20 and kinda guessed on 1/20/10 (prior to the contest starting, making it kind of a gray area)
diremage - Glabrezu 8/20/22
Djinnocide - Enveloper 7/6/18
DLcygnet - Protean 12/10/19
Doug Lampert - Wile E. Coyote > Cabosilicate Amorph > Redcloak's Niece 6/24/20
Elanfanforlife - Protean > Loculi = Snorlax 10/3/2022, Protean > Loculi = Slaad 9/1/23
Elliot0 - Glabrezu 6/21/23
Emanick - Frankenstein 4/5/20, "Something not guessed" > White Slaad > Protean 10/15/21
Emberlily - Protean - 9/5/23
EmperorSarda - Kandra/Mistwraith 10/22/18
Eric the White - Barghast (version from Dragon #26) 6/22/22
ff7hero - Slaad 8/4/22
Father Miles - ANB > Protean > Snorlax 7/19/18
Fish - thesaurus 10/1/19
Flange - Wingless Wonder 3/7/23
Flumphs4ever - Goristro 5/13/23
georgie_leech - Protean 3/1/23
GM_3826 - Protean > ANB > Uvuudaum 6/2/16
godsflunky - Protean (because of the nice character-development resonances) 7/11/18
gooddragon1 - Galeb Duhr 6/18/19
Grey_Wolf_c - Protean > Zodar > Aboleth 5/22/16, Protean > Slaad > Zodar 6/22/22
halfeye - Boojum 6/1/16, Black Hole > Boojum 7/24/18, Nightcrawler 3/19/19, Boojum > Nightcrawler > Black Hole 5/1/20
Hardcore - Imentesh (its a kind of Protean) 7/17/16, Snorlax > Protean 5/1/20, Imentesh > Snorlax 10/24/22
HarryMcB - Protean 5/28/16
Humanist Geek - Protean > ANB > something templated 6/22/16
InvisibleBison - Protean 3/1/23
IrishMusician - Protean 6/22/16
Iskar Jarak - Protean 4/1/20
IthilanorStPete - Protean 6/22/22
Jaxzan Proditor - Protean > Zodar 7/11/18
Jaziggy - Xenocrysth > Protean 7/21/20, Loculi 6/28/22
Jervis - a small psychic giant 6/16/22, Linnorm 6/18/22
Jineon - 9-times blinded Beholder 3/29/19
JonahFalcon - Very Young Obsidian Dragon 7/5/20
Kastor - ANB (the old one) 6/18/20, Corpse Tearer Linnorm 11/10/22
Kish - Infernal > Slaad 5/22/16, Infernal > Slaad > Protean 7/17/16, Slaad > Protean 8/31/18
Knight.Anon - Young Titan 8/3/16
KrankenWagon - ANB > Black Slaad 3/29/19
Kythia - Slaad 8/9/17
LadyEowen - ANB 6/24/20
Laurentio III - Loculi > Protean > amnesiac Proteus (from Marvel comics) 8/4/22, Loculi = Protean = Glabrezu 8/10/22
littlebum2002 - Protean 6/23/16, Slaad > Protean 8/25/2017
locksmith of io - Protean > ANB 3/31/19
Lord Bingo - Zodar 5/29/16
Lombard - Couatl 5/31/16, Li Lung (templated) 7/11/18, Li Lung with Wilder levels 4/10/19
Mad Humanist - Protean 3/30/19
Magesmiley - Prismatic Dragon (very young or young) 5/23/16
Mariele - Protean = ANB 3/14/19
Metastachydium - Blood&Honey!Pooh Bear>=Epic!Slaad 9/5/23
Michaeler - heavily templated Protean 5/23/16, young Protean = something Snarl-related (perhaps a Protean) 4/20/2018
Mightymosy - Something not yet guessed > Protean > Carbosilicate Amorph 1/8/19, Something not yet guessed > Protean 3/31/19
Mike Havran - Protean 12/7/22
Monation - Protean 11/15/17
Neponde - Protean 7/16/20
nihil8r - Glabrezu 5/24/16
NobleCuriosity - Protean > ANB 1/12/19
Onyavar - Protean 6/22/16
Outliar - ANB 11/23/16
Peelee - Protean 7/20/16
Precure - Protean with Sorcerer levels 3/7/23
Psyren - Protean 10/19/22
puzzler7 - Protean > Slaad 9/28/22
pwning doodes - Uvuudaum 9/25/19
Quartz - ANB 5/31/16, ANB = Uvuudaum 4/25/20
Qwertystop - Protean > Zodar 7/17/16
Qzin - Snarl, Jr 9/29/18
Ranagrande - Extremely heavily templated Giant Space Hamster 5/22/16
ReaderAt2046 - Protean > Zodar > Carbosilicate Amorph 6/22/16, Protean > ANB > Carbosilicate Amorph 7/17/16, ANB > Carbosilicate Amorph 11/17/17, Xenocrysth > Carbosilicate Amorph 8/1/20, Protean 10/10/23
redgoblin - Hephaestus - 7/18/18
Riarra - Slaad > Protean 9/30/18
Rollin - Protean 12/5/19
Ron Miel - Púca 5/22/16
Rosstin - Protean 11/22/16
Ruck - Protean > ANB > Snorlax 6/2/16, Protean > Uvuudaum > ANB 12/3/19, Protean 9/1/23
RWeird - Protean > Neh-Thalggu > Uvuudaum 5/23/16
Schroeswald - Red Cloak's niece 10/1/19
Scizor - Protean 12/16/19, Xenocrysth > Protean 8/3/20
Shashakiro - ANB 11/15/17, Slaad 8/28/18
ShiningWrath - ANB 7/17/16, Dread Linnorm (runty, minus a head) 4/28/18
silversaraph - baby or young ANB 6/27/22
Sir_Norbert - Uvuudaum 3/29/19
SirKazum - Slaad 7/12/16
Sniccups - Slaad = ANB 10/15/17
Sniffnoy - Uvuudaum 5/22/16
Son of a Lich! - Protean 3/7/19
SpoonR - Baby Deity 9/29/18
Squire Doodad - Protean > Slaad 3/21/19, Protean > Xenocrysth 10/15/21
Synesthesy - “pure” Black Slaad 9/16/18
TaiLiu - Protean 10/26/22
Thales - Protean - 6/15/20
The Aboleth - ANB 3/5/19, Protean > ANB 12/5/19
theinsulabot - ANB 6/22/16
thelivingmonkey - Glabrezu 10/25/18, Protean > Glabrezu > Snorlax 3/13/19
thereaper - Protean 6/22/16
Thermophille - Slaad (White > Black) 11/6/17
Throknor - Uvuudaum > Glabrezu 7/28/16, Aboleth Mage -> Uvuudaum > Glabrezu 8/5/20
Timy- Protean 12/1/21
TraceHyde - Protean > Barghest > Something copywrited 5/23/16
trtl - Protean > Gazebo 4/4/20
Tubercular Ox - Hunting Horror 12/22/22
Tzardok - Templated Cipactli 12/22/22
Ubiquity - Protean > Uvuudaum 8/30/23
Vendanna - Half-dragon 6/3/16, Half-dragon/demon 11/15/17
voiceofreason - the author 7/1/16
World Illusion - Pseudonatural Marid 4/22/23
woweedd - Protean = Zodar 7/12/18
Yanisa - ANB 5/27/16
Zenfrodo - Onyx Dragon 10/10/2022
Zenzis - Glabrezu 11/15/17
mashlagoo1982
2023-11-15, 07:53 AM
Nobody else seems interested... so below are what I see as the pros and cons for Turaglas (aka the Ebon Maw).
Please feel free to critique.
Important Links:
Turaglas_(Turagathshnee_Form) (https://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/block/Turaglas_(Turagathshnee_Form)%7Ccr%7Ca%7Cl%7C14)
Turaglas_(True_Form) (https://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/block/Turaglas_(True_Form)%7Ccr%7Ca%7Cl%7C14)
Turagathshnee (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/block/Turagathshnee)
My current thought is that if MitD is Turaglas, it mostly stays in its Turagathshnee Form. This could either by choice or because it cannot access its True Form fully. For this theory to qualify, Turaglas would need to have access to the strength of its True Form.
Pros:
In its True Form, Turaglas has sufficient STR (44) to meet the strength requirement. There are cons to this that will be covered later.
In either form, Turaglas has high AC (36 or 42) and impressive DR (15/epic and good)
In either form, Turaglas has access to Greater Teleport
In its Turagathshnee Form, Turaglas would resemble a 18ft tall, disproportionally gangly humanoid. It would have an elongated head with a single gaping maw filled with rows of long, razor sharp, fangs. Its skin is mottled grey and both hands and toes are tipped with long talons. There are cons that will be covered later.
In its True Form, Turaglas resembles a gigantic gibbering mouther. There are cons that will be covered later. Both forms are very fantastic to behold.
The original publish date of this creature is October 2003.
Turaglas is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects.
Both forms have high SR.
Both forms have Swallow Whole.
Both forms can regurgitate creatures as a free action once the target reaches 0 hp via Warp Flesh (Su).
Neither form has access to undead creation (please double check the SLAs for me... I don't think any do).
Turaglas has no listed spoken language but can cast tongues (self only).
Turaglas can be easily confused for a regular Turagathshnee. There are cons that will be covered later.
Generic Turagathshnee would not be expected to speak anything let alone common.
Turagathshnee are very rare and powerful in their own right.
Turaglas can and will eat anything.
Inexorable Maw ignores up to 40 points of hardness when biting objects. There are cons that will be covered later.
Turaglas is very powerful and could probably win in a fight against Red Cloak with no issues.
Any version would be out of place in a jungle.
Cons:
In its Turagathshnee Form, Turaglas does not have sufficient STR (28) to meet the strength requirements. There maybe an explanation for this shortcoming that will be discussed later.
In both forms, Turaglas has no eyes. There maybe an explanation for this shortcoming that will be discussed later.
No ability like stench to trigger crowd in circus scene. Are either form horrifying enough? They are to me, but your milage may vary.
Turaglas should not be confused for a regular Turagathshnee because it is over twice the size of a regular one. There maybe an explanation for this shortcoming that will be discussed later.
If Turaglas did swallow Red Cloak whole, would it be able to spit out Xykon's phylactery before the item is destroyed?
The lore may not fit very well. Is the Abyss considered the "parent" of Turaglas? A war was fought between Turaglas(+followers) and Orcus + Demogorgon(+followers). Turaglas lost and is/was trapped, sleeping in a void prison between worlds. This happened thousands upon thousands of years ago. In the interim, both Orcus and Demogorgon had all known records of Turaglas destroyed. Would Rich be willing to work this into OotS universe?
One method of summoning only allows Turaglas into the material plane in Turagathshnee Form and only for a very short duration. Fluff states that summoning method only last minutes. Far longer than MitD has been present. Potential explanation is below.
Has no answer for the stomp scene.
Is a named demon prince... to powerful or inappropriate for setting?
Potential Explanations:
The remaining followers of Turaglas are trying to restore it to power according to lore. Maybe Turaglas is being granted some access to this power and thus is getting access to True Form STR (44). It could also be that Turaglas just prefers to be in its Turagathshnee Form and accidentally let some of its true power out from its True Form when it struck at Miko. This is assuming Turaglas does have access to its True Form already.
In both forms, Turaglas has access to See Invisibility which it is stated to constantly be casting upon itself. The spell calls out vision and seeing. So, it would not be a leap to somehow provide eyes for a create with none. This could also just be art style argument as presented in Protean.
Because all records of Turaglas were destroyed, it is unreasonable to assume most people (the hunters) would expect Turaglas to be anything except a unusually large Turagathshnee (pony/warhorse argument proposed in previous thread).
The duration a summon can last is clearly fluff. It is left up to DM interpretation. No spell is provided to lock down how it should work. It would not be impossible for a story reason to exist that would allow Turaglas to remain summoned for a longer duration. Additionally, the comic provides at least one example of a summon clearing breaking the rules for story purposes (Celia summon trying to recover Roy).
Further Thoughts:
Turaglas being confused for a regular Turagathshnee fits with Red Cloak's statement of knowing what/who it truly is. It would be considered hidden lore that only an individual with extensive (or access to) knowledge of obscure details would know.
It may also make sense that for O-Chul to have knowledge about Turaglas and make the statements regarding the identity. O-Chul would probably have access to knowledge about the more powerful forces that would potentially oppose the Sapphire Guard. Also, who would really believe MitD is Turaglas? So O-Chul making the statement regarding others disbelief would fit with this logic.
Could Dark Speech feat account for the Stop scene we see with Haley and Belkar? Could another SLA account for the scene instead, like Fear? I believe Fear would assume both Haley and Belkar made their Will save and are shaken for 1 round.
Could overrun account for the tower scene? This seems to be one of the only attack like actions Turaglas could perform that would not deal any direct hp damage (hit the lightest game). If so, it would increase the STR to 32 instead of 28. If overrun would work, it would mean Turaglas would fit all criteria in its Turagathshnee Form.
The original magazine source also lists Improved Bull Rush as a feat Turaglas possesses in its Turagathshnee Form. Interestingly the linked stat block above does not reflect this feat. I don't think this really helps improve its standing with the tower scene. Other people probably know better than me, so it is noted here.
Many epic level named monsters were reviewed. Most had something that disqualified them like causing insanity or constantly dripping acid that pools at their feet or speaking common. Turaglas does not seem to outright have a specific quality that disqualifies it like the other candidates.
While Turaglas is stated to be imprisoned, it has clear stats and was obviously intended to interact with PC characters should they reach appropriate levels. Basically, if it was never intended to escape it's prison, why stat it out?
Grey_Wolf, please link this to whatever category Turaglas falls into.
IDC if it is Proposed Ideas or FBS, I just do not want the analysis lost.
For people that want to review the information themselves, there are free PDF sources online where it can be previewed. It's Dragon Magazine v312 pg67-75
brian 333
2023-11-15, 08:04 AM
There is a lot of protean in that slaad.
I cannot find a link and my copy of the 1st Ed Monster Manual II was lost in a flood, so I cannot provide a stat block. However, the Dao fits everything we know about MitD.
Tzardok
2023-11-15, 08:20 AM
The dao? The earth genie? How come?
brian 333
2023-11-15, 08:33 AM
The dao? The earth genie? How come?
The 1st and 2nd ed. version fits everything we know.
Horrific appearance, incredible strength, earthquake as a daily power, able to cast wish.
I was able to find the 5th Ed version, but not earlier ones. Keep in mind that in 1st Ed, liches were 11HD monsters, so Dao being something like 11-13HD, (I don't recall exactly,) places them well within the realm of today's epic monsters.
Keltest
2023-11-15, 09:12 AM
The 1st and 2nd ed. version fits everything we know.
Horrific appearance, incredible strength, earthquake as a daily power, able to cast wish.
I was able to find the 5th Ed version, but not earlier ones. Keep in mind that in 1st Ed, liches were 11HD monsters, so Dao being something like 11-13HD, (I don't recall exactly,) places them well within the realm of today's epic monsters.
I can go check the specifics, but its also important to keep in mind that 1e AD&D wasnt expected to be adventuring much past level 10 even if you could get higher. Perhaps more to the point, Dao were one of the monsters that have persisted through editions, and an edition change is implied to be involuntary.
On a more subjective note, I also think that Rich probably wouldn't go for an edition change joke with the MITD's big reveal.
ETA: I went and checked my copy of the MM2. Dao have 8* hit dice and are not "hideous" but rather conventionally unattractive (ie a little below average).
*technically "8+3" which means their hit dice are bigger than normal IE a D8+3. But for monster power scaling, 8+3 is not 11, it is 8.
Tzardok
2023-11-15, 09:38 AM
The depiction of a dao in 1e is this:
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/4/41/Dao-1e.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20200402120342
This doesn't really look horrifying or strange.
Furthermore, the 3e stats aren't really that strong (it doesn't even have wish, only limited wish.)
Finally, if you want to refer to 2e, according to Secrets of the Lamp (the sourcebook on genies), a dao's wishes are always monkey paws, no matter what the dao intends. If you wished for Escape from a dao, you'll land somewhere in the wilderness, at the brim of a volcano or stranded on another plane. The Escape effect on the other hand is pretty benevolent.
b_jonas
2023-11-15, 12:17 PM
Sunny considers Serini his mother, such as in #1238, #1244, #1253, #1257, #1283 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1283.html). I think this means that it's less of a problem when a candidate has no parents, such as with the Slaad.
A war was fought between Turaglas(+followers) and Orcus + Demogorgon(+followers). Turaglas lost and is/was trapped, sleeping in a void prison between worlds. This happened thousands upon thousands of years ago. In the interim, both Orcus and Demogorgon had all known records of Turaglas destroyed. Would Rich be willing to work this into OotS universe? […] The remaining followers of Turaglas are trying to restore it to power according to lore. Yes. In #85 12th, Elan says “Soon, he will be a forgotten god, slumbering away for centuries until dark priests seek to awaken his unholy power.” (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0085.html) If Elan knows of this trope, then this sort of thing, with a demon lord defeated and forgotten, but later restored by followers, probably happens in the Stickiverse, so it could have happened to Turaglas as well.
Also you sometimes call the demon Turaglas and sometimes Taraglas. What is with the double name?
mashlagoo1982
2023-11-15, 12:25 PM
Also you sometimes call the demon Turaglas and sometimes Taraglas. What is with the double name?
Don't know what I was thinking with that. Thanks for pointing it out. I corrected the names.
Metastachydium
2023-11-15, 12:51 PM
There is a lot of protean in that slaad.
I cannot find a link and my copy of the 1st Ed Monster Manual II was lost in a flood, so I cannot provide a stat block. However, the Dao fits everything we know about MitD.
The dao? The earth genie? How come?
The 1st and 2nd ed. version fits everything we know.
Horrific appearance, incredible strength, earthquake as a daily power, able to cast wish.
I was able to find the 5th Ed version, but not earlier ones. Keep in mind that in 1st Ed, liches were 11HD monsters, so Dao being something like 11-13HD, (I don't recall exactly,) places them well within the realm of today's epic monsters.
I can go check the specifics, but its also important to keep in mind that 1e AD&D wasnt expected to be adventuring much past level 10 even if you could get higher. Perhaps more to the point, Dao were one of the monsters that have persisted through editions, and an edition change is implied to be involuntary.
On a more subjective note, I also think that Rich probably wouldn't go for an edition change joke with the MITD's big reveal.
ETA: I went and checked my copy of the MM2. Dao have 8* hit dice and are not "hideous" but rather conventionally unattractive (ie a little below average).
*technically "8+3" which means their hit dice are bigger than normal IE a D8+3. But for monster power scaling, 8+3 is not 11, it is 8.
The depiction of a dao in 1e is this:
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/4/41/Dao-1e.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20200402120342[IMG]
This doesn't really look horrifying or strange.
Furthermore, the 3e stats aren't really that strong (it doesn't even have [I]wish, only limited wish.)
Finally, if you want to refer to 2e, according to Secrets of the Lamp (the sourcebook on genies), a dao's wishes are always monkey paws, no matter what the dao intends. If you wished for Escape from a dao, you'll land somewhere in the wilderness, at the brim of a volcano or stranded on another plane. The Escape effect on the other hand is pretty benevolent.
The funny thing is, Team Glabrezu should be jumping in to defend the Dao as we speak. The low CR is really the only issue here! See,
–advanced to Huge, it has STR 30;
–it also has a bull rush ability called Push (Ex), as well as Earth Mastery to help with pushing things;
–it has Gaseous Form at-will as an SLA, which shouldn't explain its resilience normally, but given how it works for Vampires in OotS, it really does (also note how it leaves the eyes visible) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1005.html);
–Limited Wish is not Wish, but it's all the Dao needs: it can replicate Teleport, and with the Dao's Telepathy, it could acquire a target from V;
–alternatively, it has Plane Shift (Su) which it can use to transport itself and other creatures to the Elemntal Planes, the Astral one or the Material;
–it's not natively beautiful or very ugly and disturbing, but it has Change Shape (Su), allowing it to assume the form of Medium to Large Humanoids and Giants – such as a Crystalline Troll, that is disturbing and yet beautiful indeed, and the shapechangong going on could have fooled robe guy;
– and it's not immune to mind-affecting spells and effects to boot.
If the Glabrezu is a viable candidate, the Dao is the perfect candidate.
Crusher
2023-11-15, 02:24 PM
The funny thing is, Team Glabrezu should be jumping in to defend the Dao as we speak. The low CR is really the only issue here! See,
–advanced to Huge, it has STR 30;
–it also has a bull rush ability called Push (Ex), as well as Earth Mastery to help with pushing things;
–it has Gaseous Form at-will as an SLA, which shouldn't explain its resilience normally, but given how it works for Vampires in OotS, it really does (also note how it leaves the eyes visible) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1005.html);
–Limited Wish is not Wish, but it's all the Dao needs: it can replicate Teleport, and with the Dao's Telepathy, it could acquire a target from V;
–alternatively, it has Plane Shift (Su) which it can use to transport itself and other creatures to the Elemntal Planes, the Astral one or the Material;
–it's not natively beautiful or very ugly and disturbing, but it has Change Shape (Su), allowing it to assume the form of Medium to Large Humanoids and Giants – such as a Crystalline Troll, that is disturbing and yet beautiful indeed, and the shapechangong going on could have fooled robe guy;
– and it's not immune to mind-affecting spells and effects to boot.
If the Glabrezu is a viable candidate, the Dao is the perfect candidate.
Its hard to tell body language with plants so I'm unsure about this but... you're kidding, right?
Barghest, not barghast.
Ah, ok, thanks. I suspect that's been like that for a looooong time. Yeah, its been guessed twice, neither recent, and I spelled it correctly for one and incorrectly for the other.
In light of this information, I have only guessed our other strong candidates. @Crusher, put me down for
Therblewurkersaurus > The Moon of the Planet in the Rift > An ant with the right backstory
Logic is solid, your guesses will be so noted. No take-backs.
Can we add the guesses list in alphabetic order, like this?
My initial thought is "maybe". I've got it organized currently by the order people made their initial guess and kind of like keeping track of that. I could still keep track the other way, but it'd be enough of a hassle I wouldn't keep it up. Alphabetical by username would certainly make it easier to find various people's specific guesses (which I assume is what you're looking for). Let me think about it.
b_jonas
2023-11-15, 03:42 PM
What body shape do Glabrezu and Dao have? A Huge sized four-legged creature can be like an indian elephant, 9 foot tall and just as long, you can imagine it almost fit under the umbrella. The ANB is like that. But a Huge sized creature with humanoid shape standing on two legs, standing 18 foot tall, that would be almost impossible to imagine under the umbrella.
Tzardok
2023-11-15, 03:47 PM
Daos are pretty much human in appearance. Maybe, depending on depiction, they have those smokey instead-of-legs thing that genies tend to have.
Glabrezu are upright and vaguely humanoid, if you ignore the secondary pair of arms growing from the chest.
Doug Lampert
2023-11-15, 06:26 PM
I'm going to renew the suggestion of a previous edition Goristro updated by Rich. The monster dates to 1984, but updates to third edition stats came relatively late and may not have been seen by Rich when he made the decision.
If Rich updated it himself, a greater tanar'ri would have the 3.5 Tanar'ri subtype which grants telepathy and default tanar'ri speak Abyssal, Celestial, and Draconic, but common is not a general trait for them.
GreyTraveller looked up the original publication and the creature has levitation and spider climb as at will spell-like abilities, teleport wihthoug error (once per day), and they have a stamp attack (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25881108&postcount=984).
Unlike most fiends, they explicitely are born and bred, with parents.
Goristro will eat anything that moves.
"Gorislroi are vaguely reminiscent of giant bears, although their shoulder are broader, their visages a nightmarish cross beztween bison and human, and their hands and feet disproportionately large, splayed, and humanlike. Their arms are extremely long, like an ape's. Individual colors vary from dark brown through sickly greenish yellow to a peculiar purplish gray." This could generate a range of reactions with goblin children being impressed while humans respond more negatively to the specifically nightmarish appearance.
Greater teleport at will means it would not neccessarily be trapped in Durukan's dungeon.
Cons: Goristro are stupid, the version I can find specifies that they eat only meat (so possibly obligate carnivores), the adults are way too big (although size appears to vary by edition).
LadyEowyn
2023-11-15, 06:40 PM
Rich has emphasized “big” and that the MITD’s size is not representative of its species (twice in canon, as noted in the starter post, and once in the calendars) as well as “eats a lot” (mentioned repeatedly in MITD’s case, and once about its father), so those are points in its favour.
Precure
2023-11-15, 07:42 PM
Said source for Goristro:
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 7
ARMOR CLASS: -2
MOVE: 15"
HIT DICE: 20 (+6/die)
% IN LAIR: 20%
TREASURE TYPE: B, C
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 & 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 12-30/12-30 & 5-40
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 60%
INTELLIGENCE: Low
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil.
SIZE: L. (21-24 tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: X/ 16,200 + 35/hp
These huge demons are collectively known as geristroi. One can be found on nearly any plane of the Abyss, for they are adaptable and much desired by the rulers of the place to serve as engines of destruction. Demon lords and princes are able to command the goristroi and have them serving as guardians, enforcers, and so on. The hulking goristroi are too stupid and bestial to do more than carry out their orders.
The attack mode of these monsters consists of two clubbing smashes with their long and very powerful arms. Each is equal to a crushing blow, so material struck must be saved for. In addition, a stamping attack can be made against any opponent of 6' or less height which is within 10 of these brutes. They hurl boulders as do cloud giants (1"-24" range for 2-24 points of damage). Goristroi also have the following spell-like powers which they can employ one at a time, one per round, at will: detect illusion, detect invisibility, fear (as a wand. by gaze), gloom 60 r. (equals one-half darkness condition), levitation, spider climb, and teleport without error (once per day only).
Even the lowliest of goristroi can be harmed only by +1 or better magic weapons. All of them are immune to cold, fire, poison, and poison gas. They regenerate at the rate of 1 hit point per turn. They have both infravision and ultravision.
As noted in the list of statistics given above, goristroi receive 6 hit points per hit die in addition to whatever is rolled, giving each hit die a range of from 7-14 instead of the usual 1-8. Goristroi with 140-160 hit points are 21 tall and can only be hit by magic weapons of +1 or better. Those with 161-200 hit points are 22' tall, and also are hit only by +1 weapons. If hit points fall in the range of 201-240, the beast is 23' tall. and is hit only by +2 weapons or better. The largest goristroi have 241-280 hit points, are 24' tall, and are hit only by +3 weapons or better.
Goristroi can do siege damage to constructions and large objects in the same way that giants and golems can. Damage figures given below are per round of attack, with no other activity allowed to the goristro in that round.
Points of Damage Against
Wood 4
Earth 1
Soft Stone 3
Hard Rock 2
Bronze 1
As can be seen from the foregoing, the goristroi are major amongst their ilk because of their ability to absorb damage and to mete it out. They are stupid and otherwise limited in power, being unable even to gate in other demons. The vast majority (90%) of goristroi encountered will be in the service of some Abyssal ruler, blindly carrying out the duties assigned to them with complete fanaticism. There is never a question of retreat or morale when dealing with these brutes. They will always continue to follow their given commands until completion or death occurs.
Some symbol of servitude will be worn by goristroi ruled by a lord or prince, whether it be a collar, arm or wrist band, implanted symbol, or whatever. Such devices typically have the power to convey telepathic commands to the wearer as well as serve as tracking devices should the masters wish to know the whereabouts of their servants. Without direct command or supervision, goristroi tend to wander off on destructive rampages of their own direction and desire.
Goristroi are vaguely reminiscent of giant bears, although their shoulders are broader, their visages appearing to be a nightmarish cross between bison and human, and their hands and feet disproportionately large, splayed, and humanlike.
In addition to the stupidity, also seems to lack appropriate defenses. (Miko's weapons are very unlikely to be nonmagical, and Belkar's explicitly are not.)
Crusher
2023-11-15, 09:51 PM
I'm going to renew the suggestion of a previous edition Goristro updated by Rich. The monster dates to 1984, but updates to third edition stats came relatively late and may not have been seen by Rich when he made the decision.
If Rich updated it himself, a greater tanar'ri would have the 3.5 Tanar'ri subtype which grants telepathy and default tanar'ri speak Abyssal, Celestial, and Draconic, but common is not a general trait for them.
GreyTraveller looked up the original publication and the creature has levitation and spider climb as at will spell-like abilities, teleport wihthoug error (once per day), and they have a stamp attack (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25881108&postcount=984).
Unlike most fiends, they explicitely are born and bred, with parents.
Goristro will eat anything that moves.
"Gorislroi are vaguely reminiscent of giant bears, although their shoulder are broader, their visages a nightmarish cross beztween bison and human, and their hands and feet disproportionately large, splayed, and humanlike. Their arms are extremely long, like an ape's. Individual colors vary from dark brown through sickly greenish yellow to a peculiar purplish gray." This could generate a range of reactions with goblin children being impressed while humans respond more negatively to the specifically nightmarish appearance.
Greater teleport at will means it would not neccessarily be trapped in Durukan's dungeon.
Cons: Goristro are stupid, the version I can find specifies that they eat only meat (so possibly obligate carnivores), the adults are way too big (although size appears to vary by edition).
Yeah, I LOVE the Goristro as a candidate. It hits a bunch of points well, including the earthquake which very few can answer. But its really dumb, doesn't have the defenses, and at least one version is oddly weak especially if you scale down the size. I just can't support it for FBS.
Argis13
2023-11-15, 10:25 PM
Logic is solid, your guesses will be so noted. No take-backs.
Why would I take it back?
If you simply assume that Rich was kidding or being sarcastic when he said that "someone will figure it out eventually," they all fit perfectly. All the other guesses on your list have in-comic evidence against them. My guesses have no in-comic evidence, and therefore cannot be argued against.
In fact, Rich said "...Look! It was a therblewurkersaurus the entire time!" or some other made-up monster."
I don't understand why nobody else thinks the way that I do!
Peelee
2023-11-15, 10:43 PM
All the other guesses on your list have in-comic evidence against them. My guesses have no in-comic evidence, and therefore cannot be argued against.
Your ideas are intriguing to me and i would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Argis13
2023-11-15, 11:20 PM
Your ideas are intriguing to me and i would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Never before has a forum moderator so tempted me to make a joke against the forum rules.
Puts serious hat on.
Nobody else seems interested... so below are what I see as the pros and cons for Turaglas (aka the Ebon Maw).
Please feel free to critique.
Yeah, this is about as good as the Zodar. A really good fit... except for one scene that disqualifies it. For this, it's the tower scene. There, MitD is hitting as lightly as as possible. That's the point. If he's not, then it's a red herring, and why even include the line, or the concept of the game? For most candidates, it's not a problem. However, Turaglas has a mode where he hits lighter. If it is Turaglas playing the game, the point of the scene would mislead unless he was in that mode, and 28 doesn't cut it.
I can buy that See Invis. would make MitD have eye-shapes, like Sangwaan (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html)(though why that wasn't used as a clue when V was invisible right in front of MitD (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html) is sketchy) I can buy that some of the lore might be shifted around by the end of the story, with some uber-ritual that invoked the power of Turaglas permanently by sacrificing his mind, being an example of how nobody is destined to be evil, and it's a result of our choices.
I can't buy that Rich would just combine the two forms somehow, getting rid of the most distinctive feature of the monster, and expect us to conclude this is the statblock of the MitD from the evidence that he's given us. The #1 reason to use this monster is to have 2 forms, one big and superstong, one small and less strong, and then incoporate that into MitD's arc somehow. Giving the less strong form the superstrong strength means that Rich probably didn't pick this monster, which is why I don't buy the apologetics for the tower scene.
Overall, It's in the right place, proposed ideas, but I think that this post could push it into having a full list of pros/cons, like the Cherub, Aboleth Mage, or Zodar.
Peelee
2023-11-15, 11:22 PM
Never before has a forum moderator so tempted me to make a joke against the forum rules.
I'm like 90% sure Roland would be angry with me if i started to chant "do it".
For reals though please don't do it.
mashlagoo1982
2023-11-16, 09:23 AM
Yeah, this is about as good as the Zodar. A really good fit... except for one scene that disqualifies it. For this, it's the tower scene. There, MitD is hitting as lightly as as possible. That's the point. If he's not, then it's a red herring, and why even include the line, or the concept of the game? For most candidates, it's not a problem. However, Turaglas has a mode where he hits lighter. If it is Turaglas playing the game, the point of the scene would mislead unless he was in that mode, and 28 doesn't cut it.
I can buy that See Invis. would make MitD have eye-shapes, like Sangwaan (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html)(though why that wasn't used as a clue when V was invisible right in front of MitD (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html) is sketchy) I can buy that some of the lore might be shifted around by the end of the story, with some uber-ritual that invoked the power of Turaglas permanently by sacrificing his mind, being an example of how nobody is destined to be evil, and it's a result of our choices.
I can't buy that Rich would just combine the two forms somehow, getting rid of the most distinctive feature of the monster, and expect us to conclude this is the statblock of the MitD from the evidence that he's given us. The #1 reason to use this monster is to have 2 forms, one big and superstong, one small and less strong, and then incoporate that into MitD's arc somehow. Giving the less strong form the superstrong strength means that Rich probably didn't pick this monster, which is why I don't buy the apologetics for the tower scene.
Overall, It's in the right place, proposed ideas, but I think that this post could push it into having a full list of pros/cons, like the Cherub, Aboleth Mage, or Zodar.
I can understand this position. The ability of Turaglas to qualify FBS depends on buying into the idea that its weaker form has access to the STR of its stronger form.
Another option would be to disagree with the estimation of 30 STR and accept that 28 STR is enough. Not going to argue that as IDC.
Turaglas is right on the line for me between the two categories. I do feel strongly at the very least that it deserves a longer list of pros and cons wherever it ends up.
I only felt compelled to write up what I did because I thought people may miss all the pros Turaglas actually has going for it. I had hoped another person would give it a close review, but it got stuck with me.
Edit: Would the feat Improved Overrun help it to qualify with STR? The idea I have is that Turaglas would be attacking with a method that cannot be avoided... like it is how Turaglas is trying to just tap Miko (not using mouth or claws). I feel there is a way it makes sense that Turaglas may use this while following the spirit of the game. It would have the unfortunate side effect for Miko that it grants a +4 STR when trying to knock down opponents.
Edit Edit: So, my interpretation of the tower scene is that MitD is trying to attack and deal the least amount of damage as possible. It has multiple options, but all are guaranteed to hit and almost all are guaranteed to actually cause damage. I don't know how Improved Overrun works, but it looks to be the only attack Turaglas can make that does not list any type of damage. If this is true, I could see it wrongly assuming this is its weak attack and then accidentally knocking Miko away with its now 32 STR. Like an overpowered body check. Can someone help me to understand how Improved Overrun works?
Tubercular Ox
2023-11-16, 09:27 AM
the tower scene. There, MitD is hitting as lightly as as possible. That's the point. If he's not, then it's a red herring, and why even include the line, or the concept of the game?
You just answered yourself.
For most candidates, it's not a problem. However, Turaglas has a mode where he hits lighter. If it is Turaglas playing the game, the point of the scene would mislead unless he was in that mode, and 28 doesn't cut it.
A monster with multiple attacks choosing its weakest attack is trying to hit lightly, so a candidate that needs an excuse to use its weakest attack gives the game a point. And since it is now following the rules of the game, Rich can fail to house rule a way of holding back and just let the monster do a basic attack. That must lower the strength requirement at least a little.
And I maintain that one of the purposes of the contest is to get Miko to stand still for a hit so Rich can end the fight quickly by knocking her away.
Metastachydium
2023-11-16, 10:21 AM
Its hard to tell body language with plants
Are you telling me I spent all these hours making a quick and expressive half-turn for nothing?!
so I'm unsure about this but... you're kidding, right?
Yes and no, at any rate. On the one hand, comon sense screams "WILL YOU LOOK AT THAT THING, IT'S A HORRIBLE CANDIDATE", and common sense is very correct. On the other hand, it meets the current FBS criteria, and better than the Glabrezu (more appropriate attack type, better defenses, better explanation for the Circus scene if it turned into a weird Large Giant…).
All that combined, I'd say, makes for a quite punchy argument against the Glabrezu as well as food for thought on what FBS is and what it isn't good for. As I outlined, the 3.5 Dao has literally everything it takes to become an FBS candidate, or at the very least, far more than the Glabrezu with its "you need to assume Miko missed three times and then rolled poorly for damage twice" and "why would Demons look like what Demons look like in-universe, when they could look like what an out-of-universe layman would imagione they look like". It's also a pathetic weakling that could technically frustrate the efforts of the Order or Redcloak to defeat it, but only through running away and lingering on the Astral as a cloud of thin gas for a few months.
So,
1. if Glabrezu, then Dao; but not the opposite, which reflects poorly on the Glabrezu (REMOVE THE GLABREZU!); and
2. if we do not account for power level just because CR is generally an unreliable descriptor of it, the result is bound to be silly.
Keltest
2023-11-16, 10:26 AM
1. if Glabrezu, then Dao; but not the opposite, which reflects poorly on the Glabrezu (REMOVE THE GLABREZU!); and
2. if we do not account for power level just because CR is generally an unreliable descriptor of it, the result is bound to be silly.
Edit: saw you specified 3.5 Dao. I don't have access to that one to comment, but they still look like regular people from my understanding, so I think they fail the circus scene.
As far as power level goes, if you think you have a useful way to measure it to fit into the Big Scenes requirements, I'm willing to give it a listen. Just keep in mind that if you put forth something like running a grudge match between the candidate and whatever the Geekery thread has for Redcloak, Grey Wolf will probably veto it unless youre willing to run that grudge match yourself every time it comes up.
Metastachydium
2023-11-16, 10:34 AM
Edit: saw you specified 3.5 Dao. I don't have access to that one to comment, but they still look like regular people from my understanding, so I think they fail the circus scene.
As far as power level goes, if you think you have a useful way to measure it to fit into the Big Scenes requirements, I'm willing to give it a listen. Just keep in mind that if you put forth something like running a grudge match between the candidate and whatever the Geekery thread has for Redcloak, Grey Wolf will probably veto it unless youre willing to run that grudge match yourself every time it comes up.
I just checked the FBS criteria again. It includes the following:
4) Isn't one of the impossible categories (see section 2c - categories) (unless it is an exception)
Looking at Section 2c, I couldn't not notice what's immediately below Categories: Challenge Rating. It goes
Rich intends the MitD to be a credible challenge for the heroes - the watchtower scene was included for that reason, as explained by Rich. Since Rich likely has a target level the party will achieve by the time they face MitD, MitD must have a CR at or above this level. As a rule of thumb, CR18 or higher is preferred, Epic levels being better.
See also lothos' analysis of MitD's CR
It is a wording permissive enough to allow for common sense; but it locks things like "CR 12 bruiser" straight out. What would it break to include in the list of criteria a reference to Section 2c/Challenge Rating, in the same vein as Section 2c/Categories is referenced?
Peelee
2023-11-16, 10:36 AM
And I maintain that one of the purposes of the contest is to get Miko to stand still for a hit so Rich can end the fight quickly by knocking her away.
Why would the author, who controls whether or not anyone gets hit, need her to stay still?
Keltest
2023-11-16, 10:43 AM
I just checked the FBS criteria again. It includes the following:
Looking at Section 2c, I couldn't not notice what's immediately below Categories: Challenge Rating. It goes
It is a wording permissive enough to allow for common sense; but it locks things like "CR 12 bruiser" straight out. What would it break to include in the list of criteria a reference to Section 2c/Challenge Rating, in the same vein as Section 2c/Categories is referenced?
Well first off, anything from outside of D&D doesn't actually have a Challenge Rating to begin with, so that makes having a requirement for it pretty unhelpful. Beyond that, there are the notorious issues CR has with actually accurately representing the difficulty of a monster or encounter, IE its bad at the one, specific job it has, so I would be hesitant to rely on it to do that job for us.
Basically, I don't think adding a CR requirement would actually be helpful. I think there is merit in establishing a power baseline in principle, but I personally can't think of a way to do that which is both reliable and fast.
Metastachydium
2023-11-16, 10:52 AM
Well first off, anything from outside of D&D doesn't actually have a Challenge Rating to begin with, so that makes having a requirement for it pretty unhelpful. Beyond that, there are the notorious issues CR has with actually accurately representing the difficulty of a monster or encounter, IE its bad at the one, specific job it has, so I would be hesitant to rely on it to do that job for us.
While that is entirely fair, used as a rule of thumb (as 2c explicitly puts it) it can help throw out the outright silly things, such as a particular CR 13 beatstick with a few SLAs soloing a level 15+ party with two full casters. So it's not really a purely numerical thing, let alone an absolute. You check the CR, if it looks on the low side, you check for anything that could plausibly offset the gap (all the other criteria ask for much the same: plausible explanations, rather than "I ran 150 deathmatches and it's statistically impossible" certainties); if there's nothing like that, it's probably not a good candidate.
Keltest
2023-11-16, 11:02 AM
While that is entirely fair, used as a rule of thumb (as 2c explicitly puts it) it can help throw out the outright silly things, such as a particular CR 13 beatstick with a few SLAs soloing a level 15+ party with two full casters. So it's not really a purely numerical thing, let alone an absolute. You check the CR, if it looks on the low side, you check for anything that could plausibly offset the gap (all the other criteria ask for much the same: plausible explanations, rather than "I ran 150 deathmatches and it's statistically impossible" certainties); if there's nothing like that, it's probably not a good candidate.
Let me put it this way. I don't think the FBS list should have rules of thumb. It should just have rules. If a creature can get into the FBS list, that means it matches the hard(ish) data we have on the MITD's capabilities. If you think its CR is too low for an otherwise good candidate, you are free to use that information when making your own judgement, but we don't actually have anything in comic that talks about his CR. Besides which, even your proposed method there ends up ignoring the CR as an actual filter, since you just choose to ignore it if it isn't telling you what you would expect, so why even use it?
On a semi-related note, I should point out that the Order was not level 15+ when it was indicated that the MITD could solo them, and such a confrontation is extremely unlikely at this point due to character development. Which brings us back to the lack of hard data on his likely CR, if he has one.
Tzardok
2023-11-16, 11:19 AM
Edit: Would the feat Improved Overrun help it to qualify with STR? The idea I have is that Turaglas would be attacking with a method that cannot be avoided... like it is how Turaglas is trying to just tap Miko (not using mouth or claws). I feel there is a way it makes sense that Turaglas may use this while following the spirit of the game. It would have the unfortunate side effect for Miko that it grants a +4 STR when trying to knock down opponents.
Edit Edit: So, my interpretation of the tower scene is that MitD is trying to attack and deal the least amount of damage as possible. It has multiple options, but all are guaranteed to hit and almost all are guaranteed to actually cause damage. I don't know how Improved Overrun works, but it looks to be the only attack Turaglas can make that does not list any type of damage. If this is true, I could see it wrongly assuming this is its weak attack and then accidentally knocking Miko away with its now 32 STR. Like an overpowered body check. Can someone help me to understand how Improved Overrun works?
Overrun is a combat maneuver where you try to "trample" opponents in your way into the ground. It is for example used to break through a line of opponents blocking your path. The overrun opponents have the choice between going out of your way or making attacks of opportunity against you, in which case they have to take the "trample" and are possibly knocked prone. Improved Overrun simply takes the choice to evade away from them.
As the MitD isn't actually moving and Miko flies away instead of being thrown to the ground, I'm pretty sure that there's no overrunning happening here.
mashlagoo1982
2023-11-16, 11:29 AM
Overrun is a combat maneuver where you try to "trample" opponents in your way into the ground. It is for example used to break through a line of opponents blocking your path. The overrun opponents have the choice between going out of your way or making attacks of opportunity against you, in which case they have to take the "trample" and are possibly knocked prone. Improved Overrun simply takes the choice to evade away from them.
As the MitD isn't actually moving and Miko flies away instead of being thrown to the ground, I'm pretty sure that there's no overrunning happening here.
Actually, MitD does it twice. So, in theory, it could overrun Miko and then overrun Windstriker to return to about roughly where it started.
Throwing to the ground vs thrown into a wall and sent flying is not a question I would be willing to answer with a creature whom has a STR of 32 in this scenario.
EDIT: Does overrun not allow targets to be pushed into walls or other obstacles? I seem to remember large oozes having similar abilities where they could push targets against tunnel walls in tight corridors. Is this a different ability?
Tzardok
2023-11-16, 11:39 AM
Actually, MitD does it twice. So, in theory, it could overrun Miko and then overrun Windstriker to return to about roughly where it started.
Throwing to the ground vs thrown into a wall and sent flying is not a question I would be willing to answer with a creature whom has a STR of 32 in this scenario.
In that case the second overrun would go into the other direction and get Windstriker fly away from Miko.
It also couldn't have overrun them both with a single action, for them they would've flown at the same time, not one after the other.
mashlagoo1982
2023-11-16, 11:43 AM
It also couldn't have overrun them both with a single action, for them they would've flown at the same time, not one after the other.
I was thinking it would be two separate overrun actions. Else, MitD would need to be shown at the opposite side of wall outlines in the comic and the timing probably wouldn't work.
In that case the second overrun would go into the other direction and get Windstriker fly away from Miko.
I attribute this to comedic punchline and Miko getting what she deserves. :biggrin:
b_jonas
2023-11-16, 12:42 PM
Metastachydium: Rich's comment in the War & XPs says that he did the tower scene so that the monster is shows to be a challenge for the party, which means when Haley and Belkar meets him to retrieve Roy's body. Then Belkar's attacks seem to do no damage, and the monster shouts and makes the earth crack, and Haley has to pull Roy's body out of a crack with a grappling hook. I think we deliberately didn't put the earthquake in as a separate FBS criteria because almost no monsters would remain if we did. But if we want to use this to modify the FBS criteria, then let's just put in the earthquake and the shout, rather than some arbitrary other criteria about how strong the monster is.
Metastachydium
2023-11-16, 01:04 PM
Let me put it this way. I don't think the FBS list should have rules of thumb. It should just have rules.
Half its current rules are very vague, though. "Plausible explanation" this and "plausible explanation" that. No hard benchmarks, no exact measures or guidelines.
On a semi-related note, I should point out that the Order was not level 15+ when it was indicated that the MITD could solo them, and such a confrontation is extremely unlikely at this point due to character development. Which brings us back to the lack of hard data on his likely CR, if he has one.
Metastachydium: Rich's comment in the War & XPs says that he did the tower scene so that the monster is shows to be a challenge for the party, which means when Haley and Belkar meets him to retrieve Roy's body. Then Belkar's attacks seem to do no damage, and the monster shouts and makes the earth crack, and Haley has to pull Roy's body out of a crack with a grappling hook. I think we deliberately didn't put the earthquake in as a separate FBS criteria because almost no monsters would remain if we did. But if we want to use this to modify the FBS criteria, then let's just put in the earthquake and the shout, rather than some arbitrary other criteria about how strong the monster is.
The shout doesn't seem to do damage or anything, whereas the earthquake would literally disqualify all FBS creatures.
At any rate, then, for excrement and merriment, I hereby propose that the Dao be added to the FBS list, on account of meeting all the criteria specified in Section 3a, as argued, in detail, in the attached post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25907937&postcount=28).
You just answered yourself.
If I'm reading this right, you're saying the Tower Scene is just a lie and MitD wasn't hitting as lightly as possible?
I think we deliberately didn't put the earthquake in as a separate FBS criteria because almost no monsters would remain if we did.
I think it has more to do with that we don't know how the earthquake was caused. It's indicated MitD did it by simply stomping the ground, which if so, would indicate incredible strength-- which we already have the Tower scene to cover. If it's some other power, we don't know what it is.
Keltest
2023-11-16, 01:16 PM
In 3.5, can you end a spell like gaseous form before its duration without using dispel magic or similar? Because otherwise Gaseous Form wouldn't work for the Tower scene, since the MITD would not be able to attack afterwards.
Metastachydium
2023-11-16, 01:26 PM
In 3.5, can you end a spell like gaseous form before its duration without using dispel magic or similar? Because otherwise Gaseous Form wouldn't work for the Tower scene, since the MITD would not be able to attack afterwards.
1. Yes, stuff can just be dismissed by the caster/whoever produced the effect, any time; and
2. we have actually seen something like that happen with Gaseous Form in particular (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1006.html).
Keltest
2023-11-16, 01:28 PM
1. Yes, stuff can just be dismissed by the caster/whoever produced the effect, any time; and
2. we have actually seen something like that happen with Gaseous Form in particular (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1006.html).
Vampires don't use a spell, they just have an ability to change forms whenever they want and for as long as they want.
Metastachydium
2023-11-16, 01:34 PM
Vampires don't use a spell, they just have an ability to change forms whenever they want and for as long as they want.
Spells and SLAs can also be dismissed by the caster anytime. Doesn't provoke either. It has an action cost, but nothing MitD couldn't squeeze in between being attacked and attacking.
Keltest
2023-11-16, 01:39 PM
Also, can't the Dao, and genies in general, only grant the wishes of non-genies? Because there sure weren't any wishes expressed in the Escape.
halfeye
2023-11-16, 01:43 PM
My initial thought is "maybe". I've got it organized currently by the order people made their initial guess and kind of like keeping track of that. I could still keep track the other way, but it'd be enough of a hassle I wouldn't keep it up. Alphabetical by username would certainly make it easier to find various people's specific guesses (which I assume is what you're looking for). Let me think about it.
Another way to organise it would be alphabetically buy monster species. I suggest you leave it as it is.
Tzardok
2023-11-16, 02:10 PM
If I'm reading this right, you're saying the Tower Scene is just a lie and MitD wasn't hitting as lightly as possible?
.
Seems right. IIRC the Ox has made statements in that direction for as long as I've known him.
Also, can't the Dao, and genies in general, only grant the wishes of non-genies? Because there sure weren't any wishes expressed in the Escape.
That is correct.
Seems right. IIRC the Ox has made statements in that direction for as long as I've known him.
"The strip is lying to us" would contradict Rich's "It is possible to guess." In general, I think "the things that happened in the story didn't happen" is a bad way to analyze the story, and a bad way to write a story.
Metastachydium
2023-11-16, 02:42 PM
Also, can't the Dao, and genies in general, only grant the wishes of non-genies? Because there sure weren't any wishes expressed in the Escape.
The Glabrezu has the same issue, but the Dao, at least, has Telepathy to potentially work around it. O-Chul agreeing, aloud, that he and V must get out of there (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html) might also count.
b_jonas
2023-11-16, 02:50 PM
Also, can't the Dao, and genies in general, only grant the wishes of non-genies? Because there sure weren't any wishes expressed in the Escape. I agree with the flower, an MitD that can grant wishes of others makes for a better explanation. O-Chul decided that it was now time to get away (#661 4th). Vaarsuvius probably agrees, but she's paralyzed so we can't really tell. The MitD grants their wishes, so they teleport away. No problem with why the MitD didn't teleport with them.
Tubercular Ox
2023-11-16, 03:33 PM
Why would the author, who controls whether or not anyone gets hit, need her to stay still?
I don't get how the Tower Scene is supposed to work. Rich orchestrated every panel to convey meaningful details about the strength and concentration of the Monster in the Dark, but the Monster in the Dark backhanding Miko in melee instead of teeballing her with a full wind-up isn't supposed to have an effect on that interpretation.
If I'm reading this right, you're saying the Tower Scene is just a lie and MitD wasn't hitting as lightly as possible?
No, you are not reading that correctly. One interpretation of the hit lightly contest is that a monster has to do everything within the rules to hit as lightly as possible. So switching to a weaker form, picking your weakest attack, and, just for fun, going for subdual damage all count towards hitting as lightly as possible.
However, there are no rules for holding back on your attack, nor are there rules for reducing the knockback your attack does, so if a monster goes through with their attack and it produces full knockback, it still counts as trying to hit lightly, since it has done everything within the rules to hit as lightly as possible.
Otherwise you're arguing that Rich was honor bound to create house rules that let monsters hit even more lightly than was allowed by the rules, and that somehow this is better for the guessing game than just following the rules.
Following what Argis said, the durability of the hit lightly game is that there are no printed rules for it, so it can never be argued against.
Crusher
2023-11-16, 03:47 PM
Half its current rules are very vague, though. "Plausible explanation" this and "plausible explanation" that. No hard benchmarks, no exact measures or guidelines.
The shout doesn't seem to do damage or anything, whereas the earthquake would literally disqualify all FBS creatures.
At any rate, then, for excrement and merriment, I hereby propose that the Dao be added to the FBS list, on account of meeting all the criteria specified in Section 3a, as argued, in detail, in the attached post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25907937&postcount=28).
Ah, so, you're at least semi-serious? Well, ok.
I agree the Glabrezu is a pretty weak candidate, and I wouldn't have a problem with having it be de-listed, but I'll at least put up a token defense for it along the way. As an aside, I have a number of thoughts on the FBS list but they have thus far shared a "GW will strangle me" aftertaste so I'm waiting until a better idea presents itself.
Back on topic, conveniently for human (as far as you know)-plant camaraderie, we'll start with a Pro.
1) Has a plausible explanation for the Escape - I agree Telepathy-Limited Wish is a good solution to the Escape. Its not a great answer, because Limited Wish can only replicate up to 6th level Wizard/Sorcerer spells and Greater Teleport is 7th level, but it can still do regular Teleport which is fine. Telepathy to get confirmation on the LW and where to go. Its within rounding of the Glabrezu's answer (also has telepathy) and I think "can only grant other's wishes" is a great explanation.
2) Has a plausible explanation for the Tower (both his attack and his defence) - No on both. 22 STR isn't strong enough, and there's no reason to think MitD is a freakishly large member of its species (evidence to the contrary, in fact) or otherwise has a template. Defenses are nowhere good enough. Game rules say Gaseous Form doesn't work like that (and that scene could easily be Roy missing or relatively light-damage hits). Plus, a Dao has 52hp. That's, uh, not sturdy.
Glabrezu has DR 10/Good which actually isn't terrible. Both Belkar and Miko are "lots of light hits" attackers rather than "a few big hits" and while it strains credulity either would be using non-magical weapons, its entirely plausible neither is using a Good-aligned weapon (Belkar *certainly* isn't and Paladin weapons aren't automatically Good-aligned unless they're Smiting Evil, I think).
3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus (both his act, and the reactions) - Nope. A Dao is pretty low on the "weird-looking" meter. Sure, it could make itself be weird looking, but that defeats the "stand there and do nothing" aspect of MitD's act.
4) Isn't one of the impossible categories (see section 2c - categories) (unless it is an exception) - Huh. I always thought Dao's (and Efreeti, etc) were Elementals but they're Outsiders. I suppose that makes sense as they do seem to eat/sleep/etc in ways that regular Elementals don't. Anyway, its fine.
5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich. - Yep, good.
6) Size/strength requirement (unless suggestion does not depend on strength for the above explanations) - Not too big, but is too weak.
Up to Huge: 30 STR
Gargantuan: 38 STR
Colossal: 46 STR
Colossal +: 54 STR
7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects (SoD) - Yep!
So, I'm afraid I'm a "no".
Doug Lampert
2023-11-16, 05:17 PM
Are you telling me I spent all these hours making a quick and expressive half-turn for nothing?!
Hey, your leaves got to face the sun, what more do you want?
Spells and SLAs can also be dismissed by the caster anytime. Doesn't provoke either. It has an action cost, but nothing MitD couldn't squeeze in between being attacked and attacking.
Not all spells can be, just the ones with a (D) after the duration. Like this:
Gaseous Form
Transmutation
Level: Air 3, Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Willing corporeal creature touched
Duration: 2 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
No, you are not reading that correctly. One interpretation of the hit lightly contest is that a monster has to do everything within the rules to hit as lightly as possible. So switching to a weaker form, picking your weakest attack, and, just for fun, going for subdual damage all count towards hitting as lightly as possible.
However, there are no rules for holding back on your attack, nor are there rules for reducing the knockback your attack does, so if a monster goes through with their attack and it produces full knockback, it still counts as trying to hit lightly, since it has done everything within the rules to hit as lightly as possible.
Otherwise you're arguing that Rich was honor bound to create house rules that let monsters hit even more lightly than was allowed by the rules, and that somehow this is better for the guessing game than just following the rules.
Following what Argis said, the durability of the hit lightly game is that there are no printed rules for it, so it can never be argued against.
OK, I think I understand your position better, albeit I still don't understand how
"If [MITD is] not [hitting as lightly as possible], then it's a red herring, and why even include the line, or the concept of the game?
"You just answered yourself."
gets to it.
(I don't really know the rules in detail. I assume that MitD did in fact do everything in his power to hit Miko and Windstriker as lightly as possible, whatever that entails under the rules, and even so he still knocked them through the tower wall and a great distance through the air after that.)
The glabrezu has already been removed from the FBS. Why are you arguing for it to be removed?
I am opposed to the dao, or any other similarly weak creature, replacing it.
I also firmly believe that the tower scene was Rich going, "Time to show how powerful my mystery monster is," not "time to create a false impression that my mystery monster is far more powerful than he actually is."
Argis13
2023-11-16, 06:46 PM
However, there are no rules for holding back on your attack, nor are there rules for reducing the knockback your attack does, so if a monster goes through with their attack and it produces full knockback, it still counts as trying to hit lightly, since it has done everything within the rules to hit as lightly as possible.
Otherwise you're arguing that Rich was honor bound to create house rules that let monsters hit even more lightly than was allowed by the rules, and that somehow this is better for the guessing game than just following the rules.
Following what Argis said, the durability of the hit lightly game is that there are no printed rules for it, so it can never be argued against.
Yes that is what I said, and what I think the consensus interpretation is.
"This is just a basic attack" or "Hitting as lightly as possible means it's a basic attack, and MitD did only minimum dice damage, as part of a DM quick ruling" or "Rich made a special house rule for hitting as lightly as possible" all amount to the basically the same thing on our end: MitD is really strong, plus or minus some extra fluff on the attack that we can deal with on a case by case basis.
How strong? Well, we don't know what Rich's Special STR to Knockback formula is, if there is one, and we don't know how far Miko and her horse flew, and we don't know exactly how this relates to the earthquake. Any number on the FBS list is an arbitrary line in the sand, IIRC, mostly chosen to keep the candidate list at a reasonable size. We do know that MitD is strong, and we have a consensus-based line, so I'm not sure what the actionable outcome is here.
EDIT: Didn't someone, in thread 2 or 3, do an analysis on how the Tower scene could have happened? I'll try and find it.
EDIT EDIT: Started on thread 1, and then remembered that I could just look at the First post.
EDIT X3: Okay, I was looking at the wrong Nerdanal post (2b rather than 1d - thanks GW!)
Grey_Wolf_c
2023-11-16, 07:33 PM
EDIT: Didn't someone, in thread 2 or 3, do an analysis on how the Tower scene could have happened? I'll try and find it.
Nerdanel did. You can find the link in the OP, 1d.
GW
3Power
2023-11-16, 08:27 PM
"If [MITD is] not [hitting as lightly as possible], then it's a red herring, and why even include the line, or the concept of the game?
(I don't really know the rules in detail. I assume that MitD did in fact do everything in his power to hit Miko and Windstriker as lightly as possible, whatever that entails under the rules, and even so he still knocked them through the tower wall and a great distance through the air after that.)
I was able to explore the idea that the monster itself isn’t really aware of all of its capabilities. In #374, it tries to tap Miko lightly, but fails.
The extent to which Mitd attempted to hit lightly is irrelevant, we know he failed to do so.
EDIT: Didn't someone, in thread 2 or 3, do an analysis on how the Tower scene could have happened? I'll try and find it.Nerdanel did. You can find the link in the OP, 1d.
They eventually became dissatisfied with the explanation and proposed telekinetic thrust instead. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=21331240&postcount=464)
The extent to which Mitd attempted to hit lightly is irrelevant
No it isn't. If MitD attempted to hit lightly and still hit that hard, that indicates his lightest hit is still extremely strong. It's irrelevant if you think "tried and failed to hit lightly" means he still hit at full power, but I don't see a reason to conclude that from the strip or Rich's comment.
Crusher
2023-11-17, 01:10 AM
The extent to which Mitd attempted to hit lightly is irrelevant, we know he failed to do so.
They eventually became dissatisfied with the explanation and proposed telekinetic thrust instead. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=21331240&postcount=464)
Yeah, but, 1) that's just one person's theorizing not commonly accepted wisdom (Just because you come up with something that's really solid one time doesn't mean you're suddenly infallible on everything else), and 2) not to make fun of Nerdanel, but that logic is kind of annoyingly rules lawyer-y. Since it doesn't technically say you stop when hitting a solid object, maybe the target just somehow passes through the object in an unspecified way? *That* is a compelling argument? That's like an order of magnitude less critical thinking than they applied to working out the STR requirements.
The glabrezu has already been removed from the FBS. Why are you arguing for it to be removed?
Oh, yeah, I forgot about that. I feel less need to defend its honor now.
3Power
2023-11-17, 04:34 AM
No it isn't. If MitD attempted to hit lightly and still hit that hard, that indicates his lightest hit is still extremely strong. No it doesn't. It means he tried to hit lightly, failed to hit lightly, and we have no idea what hitting lightly would actually look like for him.
In the tower scene we are shown a failed attempt at hitting lightly, not the result of successfully hitting lightly.
The fact that the creature was trying to hit as lightly as possible means he won't have been using means to hit as hard as possible.
And yes, that is relevant, because people have proposed reaching an appropriate Strength number through means ranging from extreme amounts of Power Attack to self-buffs over the years.
3Power
2023-11-17, 07:23 AM
The fact that the creature was trying to hit as lightly as possible means he won't have been using means to hit as hard as possible.
No, it means that he didn't intentionally use those means.
And yes, that is relevant, because people have proposed reaching an appropriate Strength number through means ranging from extreme amounts of Power Attack to self-buffs over the years. Power attack doesn't increase strength, it increases damage. Without Power attack the protean does 28 damage average.
An 18 STR fighter with no magic items is able to do that with a power attack and a mundane greatsword at level 15.
Is current Roy attacking at full strength able to send his opponents flying across the horizon? No? Then how is the protean supposed to be able to do that at minimum power?
InvisibleBison
2023-11-17, 09:07 AM
The extent to which Mitd attempted to hit lightly is irrelevant, we know he failed to do so.
How do we know this? We know that MitD delivered a very powerful blow to both Miko and Windstriker, but where is the proof that he's capable of delivering less powerful blows? Unless I'm forgetting something, the tower scene is the only time MitD ever attacks anyone. What evidence is there that those attacks aren't just the least powerful attacks he can deliver?
Crusher
2023-11-17, 11:11 AM
How do we know this? We know that MitD delivered a very powerful blow to both Miko and Windstriker, but where is the proof that he's capable of delivering less powerful blows? Unless I'm forgetting something, the tower scene is the only time MitD ever attacks anyone. What evidence is there that those attacks aren't just the least powerful attacks he can deliver?
I think 3Power has a point, here. We've seen MitD interact reasonably normally with his surroundings. Sure, they've mentioned that he's gigantically strong and a risk of accidentally destroying even very durable things (like being cautious with the phylactery around him), but we've also seen him eat popcorn from a bowl and pick up buckets and Go pieces and whatnot without destroying them. He CAN touch things lightly, we've seen him do it. He's just not very good at it. MitD touching something isn't an automatic 10d8+12 bludgeoning damage or whatever.
Given that he didn't accidentally launch his tacos over Dorukan's fortress, I think its fair to say he either did indeed fail at hitting Miko lightly OR he's got some kind of odd mechanic by which attacking switches him to some different kind of mechanism or STR level or something and he really does have a freakishly high minimum damage level he cannot scale back. I can imagine how such a mechanic would work but I can't think of...
Oh, wait, actually I can. In some versions, Modrons or other creatures of extreme Law do fixed amounts of damage when they hit, not 1d8+3 or whatever, they always do a flat 7 whenever they attack. And I remember a magic sword of Law from somewhere that always rolled a "12" when it attacked. So, its not impossible but its super rare.
Edit - To clarify, this doesn't really impact our estimation of MitD's STR. The original analysis, iirc, was all done assuming MitD is exerting maximum effort, using feats, etc. Which is part of why everyone makes a big deal about a 30 STR being the minimum. A 30 STR is the very bottom end of plausible for MitD to pull off punching Miko through the wall assuming he's using maximum effort and has an optimal build for punching people vast distances and through walls. If he was *successfully* punching lightly, then a 30 STR is grossly inadequate.
Keltest
2023-11-17, 11:18 AM
So, I think the obvious joke there is that he does like 1d10 plus a billion damage or something where even rolling low on his damage roll sends people flying, and the reason he doesnt do that for popcorn is because he isnt attacking the popcorn, just handling it. Roy has a giant's strength all the time, and we don't see him pull doors off their hinges or anything either, but wearing the belt is still enough to make you hit like a truck when you actually want to hurt someone.
Crusher
2023-11-17, 11:26 AM
...wearing the belt is still enough to make you hit like a truck when you actually want to hurt someone.
That's the key, though, "when you actually want to hurt someone." MitD didn't want to hurt Miko, he was trying to tap her lightly and failed (and him accidentally doing this before has been referred to), hitting her at some approximation of full strength. And him hitting her at full-strength is what all the analysis is based on so it doesn't really affect things.
The only way its interesting is if he's actually a denizen of Mechanus or whatever and a creature of Law whose abilities do fixed amounts of damage when he hits someone regardless of what he's trying to do. I don't particularly think this is the case but its at least plausible this was an attempt to hint at this extremely obscure case. I can't think of any monsters of Law that would fit the bill, though.
Keltest
2023-11-17, 11:45 AM
That's the key, though, "when you actually want to hurt someone." MitD didn't want to hurt Miko, he was trying to tap her lightly and failed (and him accidentally doing this before has been referred to), hitting her at some approximation of full strength. And him hitting her at full-strength is what all the analysis is based on so it doesn't really affect things.
The only way its interesting is if he's actually a denizen of Mechanus or whatever and a creature of Law whose abilities do fixed amounts of damage when he hits someone regardless of what he's trying to do. I don't particularly think this is the case but its at least plausible this was an attempt to hint at this extremely obscure case. I can't think of any monsters of Law that would fit the bill, though.
From a rules perspective, everyone works like that though? Strength bonus to damage isnt a range, its just a flat value.
Metastachydium
2023-11-17, 11:55 AM
I agree with the flower
Yay!
Back on topic, conveniently for human (as far as you know)-plant camaraderie, we'll start with a Pro.
You know who's a Pro? You are a Pro! Yes to human (as far as I know) – plant camaraderie!
Hey, your leaves got to face the sun, what more do you want?
Okay, fair, but it was still an effort!
The glabrezu has already been removed from the FBS. Why are you arguing for it to be removed?
Because I totally missed that. My VICTORY is COMPLETE!!
I am opposed to the dao, or any other similarly weak creature, replacing it.
Yeah, actually so am I. I was just drifting into the absurd to make a point I didn't know I didn't need to make. I am now officially abandonig the proposition to declare the Dao an FBS candidate, on account of the notion being oddly sound in principle, but also immeasurably silly. Sorry about the mess.
Metastachydium
2023-11-17, 11:59 AM
That's the key, though, "when you actually want to hurt someone." MitD didn't want to hurt Miko, he was trying to tap her lightly and failed (and him accidentally doing this before has been referred to), hitting her at some approximation of full strength. And him hitting her at full-strength is what all the analysis is based on so it doesn't really affect things.
The only way its interesting is if he's actually a denizen of Mechanus or whatever and a creature of Law whose abilities do fixed amounts of damage when he hits someone regardless of what he's trying to do. I don't particularly think this is the case but its at least plausible this was an attempt to hint at this extremely obscure case. I can't think of any monsters of Law that would fit the bill, though.
From a rules perspective, everyone works like that though? Strength bonus to damage isnt a range, its just a flat value.
Going for nonlethal damage or somesuch would still track, though. Miko and Her Stupid Horse did survive quite the hit, after all, and given how far they were flung, I could see the falling damage accounting for most of their wounds.
Hm. Is there a way to make a single attack count as an off-hand attack?
InvisibleBison
2023-11-17, 12:07 PM
MitD didn't want to hurt Miko,
Yes, he did. He intended to attack her. Sure, he was trying to hurt her as minimally as possible, but he was still trying to hurt her.
he was trying to tap her lightly and failed (and him accidentally doing this before has been referred to), hitting her at some approximation of full strength. And him hitting her at full-strength is what all the analysis is based on so it doesn't really affect things.
Again, where is the evidence that MitD failed to hit Miko lightly and instead hit her for full strength? People keep making this assertion, but no one has provided any proof to back it up. MitD not damaging things when he isn't hitting them doesn't prove that he can hit things lightly; it just proves that he can not hit things.
Tubercular Ox
2023-11-17, 12:32 PM
Again, where is the evidence that MitD failed to hit Miko lightly and instead hit her for full strength? People keep making this assertion, but no one has provided any proof to back it up. MitD not damaging things when he isn't hitting them doesn't prove that he can hit things lightly; it just proves that he can not hit things.
There is no proof, but there is no rule for holding back, so your argument is that Rich is required to invent a house rule in order to have a hit lightly contest, and that said house rule can't have provisions for failing to hit lightly, or if they have such provisions it must be obvious from a hit that's bigger than every possible hit from any monster in D&D that an even bigger hit is possible, if the Monster in the Dark would just stop goofing off.
And once you're in house rule territory, you lose all objectivity. The Tower Scene is the literacy test of the guessing game. It's technically possible to pass, but what really matters is whether the poll workers think you deserve to vote.
ReaderAt2046
2023-11-17, 12:36 PM
I think 3Power has a point, here. We've seen MitD interact reasonably normally with his surroundings. Sure, they've mentioned that he's gigantically strong and a risk of accidentally destroying even very durable things (like being cautious with the phylactery around him), but we've also seen him eat popcorn from a bowl and pick up buckets and Go pieces and whatnot without destroying them. He CAN touch things lightly, we've seen him do it. He's just not very good at it. MitD touching something isn't an automatic 10d8+12 bludgeoning damage or whatever.
Given that he didn't accidentally launch his tacos over Dorukan's fortress, I think its fair to say he either did indeed fail at hitting Miko lightly OR he's got some kind of odd mechanic by which attacking switches him to some different kind of mechanism or STR level or something and he really does have a freakishly high minimum damage level he cannot scale back. I can imagine how such a mechanic would work but I can't think of...
As I mentioned previously, this is one of my personal arguments in favor of the Protean. It seems to me quite plausible that a Protean which doesn't have full control over its shifting might go to strike a blow and then discover that it has grown a bunch of extra muscles and hit way harder than it intended to.
Keltest
2023-11-17, 12:40 PM
There is no proof, but there is no rule for holding back, so your argument is that Rich is required to invent a house rule in order to have a hit lightly contest, and that said house rule can't have provisions for failing to hit lightly, or if they have such provisions it must be obvious from a hit that's bigger than every possible hit from any monster in D&D that an even bigger hit is possible, if the Monster in the Dark would just stop goofing off.
And once you're in house rule territory, you lose all objectivity. The Tower Scene is the literacy test of the guessing game. It's technically possible to pass, but what really matters is whether the poll workers think you deserve to vote.
:smallconfused:
It definitely does not require a houserule, it just means he needs to fail to hit lightly. If I roll a D20 for my damage and you roll 3d6, I can hit lighter than you if I roll a 2, or harder than you if I roll a 20. I don't need a houserule for that.
That's the key, though, "when you actually want to hurt someone." MitD didn't want to hurt Miko, he was trying to tap her lightly and failed (and him accidentally doing this before has been referred to), hitting her at some approximation of full strength. And him hitting her at full-strength is what all the analysis is based on so it doesn't really affect things.
It is?
I just assumed he was, in fact, trying to hit as lightly as possible, but is so strong (and likely not aware of that) that we still got the result we did.
To use everyone's favorite as an example, the Protean's base attack is listed as +33. Its regular attack is "Slam +54 melee (2d6+21/19-20)." And it has a strength of 53.
I don't know what any rules might be for trying to hit as lightly as possible (intentionally tanking your rolls, maybe?) but I imagine with those bases of strength and attack, even an attempt to hit lightly would carry a lot of power (particularly from someone who likely doesn't know his own strength).
Again, where is the evidence that MitD failed to hit Miko lightly and instead hit her for full strength? People keep making this assertion, but no one has provided any proof to back it up. MitD not damaging things when he isn't hitting them doesn't prove that he can hit things lightly; it just proves that he can not hit things.
Yeah, I wish I'd seen this before I posted because it covers a lot of what I wanted to say.
Metastachydium
2023-11-17, 12:49 PM
To use everyone's favorite as an example, the Protean
Woe betide! I don't even count anymore!
Tubercular Ox
2023-11-17, 12:51 PM
:smallconfused:
It definitely does not require a houserule, it just means he needs to fail to hit lightly. If I roll a D20 for my damage and you roll 3d6, I can hit lighter than you if I roll a 2, or harder than you if I roll a 20. I don't need a houserule for that.
What did you roll for knockback?
Keltest
2023-11-17, 12:57 PM
What did you roll for knockback?
Nothing, but we already know that large strength will knock enemies back in OOTS because we have evidence of it both from Roy doing so and Mr Scruffy slamming that worg when he had the belt of giant strength on.
Woe betide! I don't even count anymore!
Too late! I've decreed it, now it stands!
OvisCaedo
2023-11-17, 02:24 PM
I also doubt there's any houserule in effect for "trying to hit lightly", part of the joke is probably that there IS no such rule. He can't actually hit any lighter than whatever the attack does.
What it does imply, I think, is that the MitD is not deliberately using active features to make the attack stronger. Power Attack being the most basic example of one, but I'm sure there's countless examples. But he is also kind of dumb and unaware of his own capabilities, so if there's an ability that he could feasibly have used on accident, I wouldn't entirely rule it out. What could "feasibly" be used on accident is likely to be another aspect that people disagree on, though!
I think it very likely that the creature did simply make a regular attack roll, because there is no mechanic for "hitting lightly." His failure to hit lightly is manifest in the holes left in the wall.
What doesn't involve house rules at all is: it wouldn't go with him trying to hit lightly at all to use a ton of Power Attack, cast Bull's Strength on himself, or in any other way hit especially hard.
Neponde
2023-11-17, 08:21 PM
I think it very likely that the creature did simply make a regular attack roll, because there is no mechanic for "hitting lightly." His failure to hit lightly is manifest in the holes left in the wall.
What are the DnD rules for non-lethal attacks / damage? Perhaps in his simple mind, he tried to attack non lethally, but is simply too strong for such a possibility, and functionally wound up with a normal attack roll.
( No real way to evaluate this either, but if he rolled an attack, perhaps he neither struck his hardest, nor his lightest, but somewhere in between?)
I think it very likely that the creature did simply make a regular attack roll, because there is no mechanic for "hitting lightly." His failure to hit lightly is manifest in the holes left in the wall.
What doesn't involve house rules at all is: it wouldn't go with him trying to hit lightly at all to use a ton of Power Attack, cast Bull's Strength on himself, or in any other way hit especially hard.
Yeah, like I said, I don't know the rules for the mechanics, but even so I think the simplest explanation is probably the correct one: MitD tried to play the "who can hit the lightest" game by trying to hit as lightly as he could. Rather than with a power attack, an unrelated power like Telekinetic Thrust, or what have you.
What are the DnD rules for non-lethal attacks / damage?
-4 to hit, does nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. Then a bunch of addenda, such as "you can't do this if your target regenerates and you're using the weapon that avoids that regeneration," "the to-hit penalty is waived if you have Improved Unarmed Strike and are striking with your bare hands and/or feet," "you can't do this with a Sneak Attack, you're either aiming for vital organs to maximize your damage or deliberately hitting less effectively than you could, not both," and "you can't do this if your weapon does fire damage instead of some type of damage that can logically be translated into a merely stunning form."
brian 333
2023-11-17, 09:30 PM
I always imagined the Miko and Windstryker punched through the wall scene to be similar to the D12 is the barbarian's best friend scene where the barbarian rolls d12+537 damage and the victim is hoping he rolls low.
Errorname
2023-11-17, 09:42 PM
To place my own guess in clear terms, my instinct right now is "[Something we haven't guessed yet] > the Protean > [every other proposed monster]"
The Protean still doesn't feel right to me, but of the proposed monsters it's easily the most compelling and cohesive. I do regret that I don't have a more compelling alternative suggestion than "we haven't found it yet"
I always imagined the Miko and Windstryker punched through the wall scene to be similar to the D12 is the barbarian's best friend scene where the barbarian rolls d12+537 damage and the victim is hoping he rolls low.
Yeah, that makes sense to me, roughly what I was thinking. His base attack is so strong that it doesn't matter how lightly he tries to hit with it.
To place my own guess in clear terms, my instinct right now is "[Something we haven't guessed yet] > the Protean > [every other proposed monster]"
The Protean still doesn't feel right to me, but of the proposed monsters it's easily the most compelling and cohesive. I do regret that I don't have a more compelling alternative suggestion than "we haven't found it yet"
I'm open to other ideas if someone finds one, although I of course think the Protean is a pretty compelling fit. I just know I'm not going to be the one to find it, because I don't even have direct familiarity with D&D as a table game, so I wouldn't even know where to begin looking through sourcebooks, let alone where I could find a sourcebook that hasn't been considered and researched yet.
Errorname
2023-11-17, 10:02 PM
I'm open to other ideas if someone finds one, although I of course think the Protean is a pretty compelling fit. I just know I'm not going to be the one to find it, because I don't even have direct familiarity with D&D as a table game, so I wouldn't even know where to begin looking through sourcebooks, let alone where I could find a sourcebook that hasn't been considered and researched yet.
I'm in pretty much the same position. I definitely think the things that make the Protean a strong candidate are what we should be looking for.
The MiTD reveal is going to need to work as a moment even if you've never heard of what it is. It needs to be something obviously cool and memorable with thematic relevance.
Tubercular Ox
2023-11-18, 10:36 AM
The MiTD reveal is going to need to work as a moment even if you've never heard of what it is. It needs to be something obviously cool and memorable with thematic relevance.
The Monster in the Dark needs three things to be self sufficient (meaning it works even if you’ve never heard of what it is).
1. Importance in the plot
2. A reason why we were not allowed to know what was revealed beforehand.
3. A reason it had to be in the story before the reveal.
So, for example
1. Both the Snarl and every FBS monster has symptoms of Cosmic Horror, and Snarl Jr. was a thing even without that. What if the Monster in the Dark has a role in finishing the Snarl’s subplot?
2. What if the Monster in the Dark is drawn Snarled in some way? It does weird things to the Circus Scene, but it establishes that Rich could not have revealed it before he actually did.
3. What if the important thing is the Monster in the Dark's relationship to O-Chul? That establishes that it had to be in the story from early on.
I’m not against criticism of my example, but I put a lot of work into making it a template for other ideas to follow, so I’d like to request we move on to other ideas at some point.
InvisibleBison
2023-11-18, 11:56 AM
The Monster in the Dark needs three things to be self sufficient (meaning it works even if you’ve never heard of what it is).
1. Importance in the plot
2. A reason why we were not allowed to know what was revealed beforehand.
3. A reason it had to be in the story before the reveal.
I don't agree that MitD needs any of these three things.
There's no reason to think MitD's identity is going to be relevant to the plot, let alone important. MitD's plot relevance lies in what he does, not what he is.
We already have an explanation for why MitD is kept in shadows, both in-universe and out. In-universe, the explanation is that Xykon wants MitD's identity to be a secret until he orders MitD to attack the good guys; out of universe, the reason is that the Giant decided to make a guessing game about MitD's identity. There's no need for any additional reason for MitD's identity to be kept secret.
Again, we already have a reason why MitD is in the story. It's because Xykon thought he'd make a good goon. There's no missing information about why MitD is in the story that his identity can be expected to reveal.
Indeed. The creature already has importance in the plot: he saved the life of one of the main characters. I don't believe he's done, but how big a character he will ultimately be is still up in the air (and I'm confident part of the answer will be "smaller than Roy or Xykon").
As for, "A reason why we were not allowed to know what was revealed beforehand," if you observe Greg's behavior from the moment of Durkon's death to the final strip of Blood Runs in the Family you might find an indication of how much reason Rich needs to hide things from the readers.
And for 3, the question seems to actively ignore the fact that the creature has been a character in the story since the first book. The cold mechanistic justification also exists--again, he saved the life of one of the main characters--but that justification really isn't necessary.
Errorname
2023-11-18, 06:34 PM
1. Importance in the plot
2. A reason why we were not allowed to know what was revealed beforehand.
3. A reason it had to be in the story before the reveal.
I would dispute these.
I think the monster needs to be cool in a self-explanatory way, and whatever it is should reflect the MITD’s story, but what the monster is shouldn’t be what justifies his place in the story. What he does matters more than what he is
Argis13
2023-11-18, 08:06 PM
I don't agree that MitD needs any of these three things.
There's no reason to think MitD's identity is going to be relevant to the plot, let alone important. MitD's plot relevance lies in what he does, not what he is.
We already have an explanation for why MitD is kept in shadows, both in-universe and out. In-universe, the explanation is that Xykon wants MitD's identity to be a secret until he orders MitD to attack the good guys; out of universe, the reason is that the Giant decided to make a guessing game about MitD's identity. There's no need for any additional reason for MitD's identity to be kept secret.
Again, we already have a reason why MitD is in the story. It's because Xykon thought he'd make a good goon. There's no missing information about why MitD is in the story that his identity can be expected to reveal.
Expanding on point one, whatever the correct answer is, even if you undertake the assumption his species is important to the plot, since we don't know what the plot will be, we don't have any information to test our prediction, and any plot importance you assign a given candidate is basically writing fanfic.
Serini's final trap could be a copy of Girard's dream trap, but, but that gets hit in the battle and malfunctions, and the Dream Larva's powers are exactly what they need to escape, O-Chul reaches out in his dreams to MitD, a Dream Larva and the Order gets back in the fight before Team Evil, gaining a valuable advantage to win the day!
Or the confusion aura of the Uvuudaum combined with a Mirror could force Redcloak into finally confronting the fact that he betrayed and killed his brother, and working with Xykon isn't a good way to finish the plan, allowing him to finally overcome his Sunk Cost.
Or Ruck's theory could be right, and the Protean's themes of change and identity are the point.
Or the Potted Plant could be right, and having grown so much physically, O-Chul's metaphorical rain finally causes it to grow spiritually, with the theme that nobody ever stops growing.
The point is, you can write a way for almost any creature to fit into a story that you yourself have wrote, but the MitD is going to fit into a story the Giant will write, but we can't know what that story is.
Tubercular Ox
2023-11-19, 10:21 AM
I would dispute these.
I think the monster needs to be cool in a self-explanatory way, and whatever it is should reflect the MITD’s story, but what the monster is shouldn’t be what justifies his place in the story. What he does matters more than what he is
Can it be fixed? Is there a way to reword it so that it covers stories where the Monster in the Dark does something that matters?
TBH I thought it was there. I reverse engineered it from my example, and my example describes a story where the important thing for the Monster in the Dark is its character growth. I'm not sure how it's supposed to use its character growth as a tool against the Snarl unless it is doing something inspired by it. Compare Belkar.
Expanding on point one, whatever the correct answer is, even if you undertake the assumption his species is important to the plot, since we don't know what the plot will be, we don't have any information to test our prediction, and any plot importance you assign a given candidate is basically writing fanfic.
I'd like to point out that, from the perspective of someone who doesn't care about the guessing game, all of your examples have the same source: Rich's pen. There's no distinguishing one from the other without caring about candidates.
So I think the Monster in the Dark can be self sufficient while still having a candidate that's important to how Rich writes it.
The point is, you can write a way for almost any creature to fit into a story that you yourself have wrote, but the MitD is going to fit into a story the Giant will write, but we can't know what that story is.
I think it's kind of obvious that the Monster in the Dark's interaction with O-Chul is going to be important. I also think the Escape scene, as a demonstration of power perpetrated against a paladin, is enough like the Tower Scene that people will be calling it foreshadowing should it turn out that the Monster in the Dark does something huge under duress in the finale, even if it's not another Escape.
But there's still a huge hole about what the Monster in the Dark is actually going to do, so to that extent I think we agree.
TBH I thought it was there. I reverse engineered it from my example, and my example describes a story where the important thing for the Monster in the Dark is its character growth. I'm not sure how it's supposed to use its character growth as a tool against the Snarl unless it is doing something inspired by it. Compare Belkar.
Previously unstated assumption #something: The creature in the darkness is supposed to use something as a tool against the Snarl.
Tubercular Ox
2023-11-19, 10:48 AM
Some people tell me I need to speak more naturally, but other people litigate my words like they're practicing for the bar.
When I asked Errorname if I could update the language, I was admitting it could be better.
When I said I thought it was there, I was admitting that other people didn't have to think that.
That frames everything I said as something I believe that may not have been conveyed well to others.
If I am not supposed to expose previously unstated assumption that, up to that point, I did not know other people didn't share, what am I supposed to do? Just face-tank the idea that everything I said was perfectly clear?
I have to be allowed to grow in response to criticism or this is all extremely silly.
Also, since it's demonstrated that I didn't convey it well, the tool I'm referring to is the Monster in the Dark's character growth, and it is a tool for Rich to use in crafting the story.
Most of what you say remains opaque, Ox, but I'm reasonably sure none of that addresses the idea that the creature in the darkness is supposed to be against the Snarl at all.
brian 333
2023-11-19, 12:58 PM
We do not know if Monster-san is or is supposed to become involved with The Snarl. It is an interesting idea for which we have nothing to support or refute.
My belief has for a long time been that MitD was going to be the cause of or somehow facilitate the breakup of RC and Xylon. I have to cherry-pick events to support the idea, and there is nothing conclusive there.
Out of story, I think MitD was supposed to be revealed at the end of DCF, but the excitement generated by the forum community encouraged The Author to let it ride to the very end. He has known all along what the creature is, but there is a following who scan every page looking for clues to this one puzzle.
Gift Jeraff
2023-11-19, 09:35 PM
Tracking MitD guesses
We've been thinking about the MitD's identity for quite some time now. The unmasking is probably not nigh, but its definitely getting closer (since time only moves forward, as far as I know). Since these threads sometimes run for a long time (a recent one ran for almost 2 years), its entirely possible the great unveiling will occur before this thread finishes so its time to get formal about it.
This post will track the guesses of anyone who cares to make a guess, along with when they made the guess (and I'll probably track guess histories as well, unless people object). If you want to make a guess, you can either post it in the thread or message me. I'm pretty thorough about reading the thread, but I miss things occasionally so feel free to remind me.
Well, I've been reading this comic since I was in high school. I am now in my 30s and am among the only ones in my friend circles who has yet to settle down, but I guess I could at least settle on a MITD prediction. That way I can't just lie and say I called it for any answer when the reveal finally happens.
Protean > Hunting Horror > The Big Show
My rationale for the Protean: (spoilered because it's basically just me rambling incoherently and I don't intend on defending any of my points; this post is basically just a summary of what I've told myself to make my final decision [maybe])
While I've gone back and forth on the Protean over the years, as the story has progressed and we've seen more and more weird-looking monsters (Sunny, Lancer, Serini's froghemoth (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1288.html), Zz'dtri's piscodaemon (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0883.html), an otyugh (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0823.html)) which provoke little to no reaction from the cast, it has become hard for me to accept simply a freaky-looking monster as an explanation for the circus scene and Xykon's reaction to MITD (this also plays a big role in why the Glabrezu is not in my top 3 choices anymore). I think I can I really only accept something really out-there like a constant shapeshifter or something completely out of the comic's art style. And as time has gone on, I find it less and less likely that we will see the latter (for a long time I half-expected the Snarl to be depicted in a crayon art style to emphasize both how alien it is to the vector-based setting and give it a more primordial vibe). Since that didn't happen and Rich hasn't used the billion worlds twist to show off past settings having different art styles, it would be very weird to introduce that concept now for anything beyond a one-panel gag. Now you could say Mimi's hands are doing just that right now, but eh, that's more a joke about AI art than it is about different art styles looking abominable to the stick figure characters.
I've always leaned heavily toward the MITD being either an aberration or magical beast; it just feels right to me. The introduction of a Beast Heart Adept as a character heavily connected to him and offering a future at her side has only reaffirmed this feeling.
Rich confidently saying that the MITD's identity will be satisfying in 2016 makes me think it has to be a really good punchline and/or really significant character-wise. While I can see the humor in MITD being a pitch-black creature like a Black Slaad or Zodar when it steps out of the darkness...without getting into forbidden topics, I also kinda see how that could potentially be seen as offensive. And a pop culture reference, regardless of how clever, just doesn't seem like something "Modern Rich" would be so confident in saying has been worth the anticipation. So I lean toward the MITD's identity being a big deal character-wise, which to me points toward either "a fiendish creature managed to turn Good" or basically exactly what Ruck said about "you can be whatever you set out to be."
However, I can also see some potential comedy in the Protean: a constant shapeshifter with no defined shape does kinda feel like a decent punchline to a mystery monster. It would be like "Who's that Pokemon?" with the silhouette changing to reveal it was just a Ditto. I could even imagine 2004 Rich snickering to himself envisioning future scenes that would give contradictory details about the MITD's shape, but perhaps as time went on and he realized that given the time left until the reveal and how analytical his fans are, such scenes would end up spoiling it too early so we never really got moments like that beyond possibly the climax of Book 1 where his eyes seem to be strangely lower to the ground. There's also potential for someone like the demon-roaches to crack a joke about how the author kept him in the shadows as an excuse to not have to draw a creature whose design changes every panel. (As an aside, I can see Modern Rich welcoming this challenge, given all he has said about the Book 6 art shift).
I also think that, compared to most viable candidates, a Protean would be easy for people completely unfamiliar with the monster to get the basic idea of the creature's capabilities without having to cram in awkward dialogue where Redcloak/Oona/O-Chul/Serini/whoever tells us what it can do. Although it just occurred to me as I was typing this that the roaches could provide the audience explanations for the monster without it feeling forced--they're already sort of treated as "out of the story" to a certain extent.
The "My gods, is it talking? In Common, no less!" line has always been a big deal in my book and I'm kinda split on whether or not a Protean satisfies it. Yes, you'd be surprised that a Protean is choosing to speak in an ordinary language, but would you really be surprised that it can speak in the first place? The line has always made me look toward creatures with a similar descriptor as the yeth hound (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/yethHound.htm)--"[creatures] cannot speak, but understand [language(s) other than Common]." It's been like a decade since I did anything resembling a deep dive into such monsters, but from what I recall there was nothing that came close to satisfying the MITD's other major scenes.
I've also never fully sat well with the Protean with regards to the Escape scene. It's not that I have a problem with a timely shapeshift or even the "Psionic Greater Teleport via conversaion as per Expanded Psionics" idea. It's just that I don't think Teleport works with the scene all that well. It really does feel like a Wish to me. However, I am starting to warm up to the idea that the MITD's box is dimensionally anchored/locked. In a setting like this, of course Stereotypical Big Game Hunters would have to account for the various creatures that can teleport, so the box being a magic item with that kind of property honestly doesn't feel like a big stretch.
Now when #1042 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1042.html) first came out, I sort of got off the Protean train after O-Chul's comment to Lien about how she wouldn't believe his theory if he told her (since, going by the rules of this universe, I assume O-Chul is 100% correct in his guess). I don't really see what Lien would find so unbelievable about Xykon having an Epic monster follow him around. The line pushed me more towards a fiend (Lien wouldn't believe that a creature literally made of Evil managed to join the Good Guys; also goes well with the running bit (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1031.html) about O-Chul (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1189.html) out-paladining Lien (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1225.html)) or a pop culture gag (i.e. you wouldn't believe that all this is building up to what some regard as the lowest form of comedy). But in my most recent reread, it occurred to me that O-Chul could simply be saying that the MITD's other character traits would be hard for Lien to envision a Protean doing (having a tea party, being polite/well-behaved/following orders, letting Redcloak push him around despite how much stronger he is, etc.).
And finally, I personally just think the Protean is really cool and I can imagine 1 panel where it looks near-identical to the official drawing (https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/b/b7/Hagunemnonrender.png/revision/latest?cb=20190828084016) minus the leftmost eye and with the other 2 eyes being replaced with the iconic :mitd: yellows eyes.
mashlagoo1982
2023-11-20, 08:04 AM
While I do think Turaglas is a good fit, there is another reason I want it to be the identity of MitD. Through whatever series of events it requires, I want the Snarl and Turaglas to end up in an epic battle. Ideally it would be the backdrop to the battle between Xykon + company and OotS + company.
But the idea of seeing the physical manifestation of anger, constructed from the raw threads of creation fighting it out against the physical manifestation of hunger, born from the infinite layers of the abyss seems like it would be awesome to behold... like the climatic stage to host the fight between Xykon and OotS.
Also, any chance of getting Turaglas entry updated in the proposed ideas?
I feel like the information presented is outdated.
Edit: No, I am not casting a vote for Turaglas.
flat_footed
2023-11-20, 10:38 AM
I don't have much to contribute in terms of theory crafting, but the discussion is a fun one to follow.
Throw my vote to Protean, such that it is.
Crusher
2023-11-20, 11:37 AM
Edit: No, I am not casting a vote for Turaglas.
Aw, c'mon. Not even 3rd?
Throw my vote to Protean, such that it is.
So noted.
Protean > Hunting Horror > The Big Show[/SPOILER]
Also noted. You've never struck me as someone with difficulty committing to things, you just wait until you've got things figured out.
mashlagoo1982
2023-11-20, 11:44 AM
Aw, c'mon. Not even 3rd?
I'll give it a vote, but not because I think it is the best fit.
I just want to see that epic battle occur.
Crusher
2023-11-20, 12:30 PM
I'll give it a vote, but not because I think it is the best fit.
I just want to see that epic battle occur.
Excellent. Feel like putting anything you'd consider a better fit first/second, or just the one?
Peelee
2023-11-20, 05:13 PM
I don't have much to contribute in terms of theory crafting, but the discussion is a fun one to follow.
I'm going to go ahead and assume you were lured in by the devilishly clever title.
3Power
2023-11-20, 11:17 PM
The extent to which Mitd attempted to hit lightly is irrelevant, we know he failed to do so.How do we know this? We know that MitD delivered a very powerful blow to both Miko and Windstriker, but where is the proof that he's capable of delivering less powerful blows? Unless I'm forgetting something, the tower scene is the only time MitD ever attacks anyone. What evidence is there that those attacks aren't just the least powerful attacks he can deliver?
Mitd was either capable of limiting his strength but failed to so so, or was incapable of limiting his strength and thereby failed to do so by default. Given that there's no evidence either way, the question of which scenario is true is irrelevant, as both are possible until proven.
So, I think the obvious joke there is that he does like 1d10 plus a billion damage or something where even rolling low on his damage roll sends people flying, and the reason he doesnt do that for popcorn is because he isnt attacking the popcorn, just handling it. Roy has a giant's strength all the time, and we don't see him pull doors off their hinges or anything either, but wearing the belt is still enough to make you hit like a truck when you actually want to hurt someone.In contrast however, Mitd specifically has a reputation for breaking his toys and other things he might theoretically handle, such as the phylactery. I get the impression that he is often able to control his strength, just not when he gets excited.
From a rules perspective, everyone works like that though? Strength bonus to damage isnt a range, its just a flat value.
That's true in general, but given that a protean can change it's size at will, its STR has a range of -18 to +24 compared to its default. If a protean wanted to become flea sized it would have a strength of 35 and be doing 1d3 +12 damage, and if it chose a different natural attack, it could be a flat 13 damage.
Also, power attack serves as an effective strength boost, with each point of BAB sacrificed becoming an effective +2 to STR, but only when attacking. Hmmm.
Hm. Is there a way to make a single attack count as an off-hand attack?If it is capable of having an off hand, yes.
Actually that made me realize something. Every creature has access to unarmed strike, so if the protean really wanted to hit as lightly as possible, he would do an off hand unarmed strike which would be 1d4 +10. Combine that with at-will shrinking, and the protean is now doing 1+6 damage.
To use everyone's favorite as an example, the Protean's base attack is listed as +33. Its regular attack is "Slam +54 melee (2d6+21/19-20)." And it has a strength of 53.
And as stated previously, that does a pathetic 28 damage on average, or are you going to claim that the STR provides the knockback effect completely independently of the damage the attack does?
Nothing, but we already know that large strength will knock enemies back in OOTS because we have evidence of it both from Roy doing so and Mr Scruffy slamming that worg when he had the belt of giant strength on.
Question: What do you think Roy is doing different, mechanically speaking, in the final page here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html)? Because to me it looks like a power attack, which means the deciding factor is damage, not STR.
What doesn't involve house rules at all is: it wouldn't go with him trying to hit lightly at all to use a ton of Power Attack, cast Bull's Strength on himself, or in any other way hit especially hard.If he can't control his abilities, he doesn't have a choice.
Yeah, like I said, I don't know the rules for the mechanics, but even so I think the simplest explanation is probably the correct one: MitD tried to play the "who can hit the lightest" game by trying to hit as lightly as he could. Rather than with a power attack, an unrelated power like Telekinetic Thrust, or what have you. The problem is that the simplest explanation doesn't make any sense. A creature doing less damage than Roy does at full power should not be able to do what mitd does.
"the to-hit penalty is waived if you have Improved Unarmed Strike and are striking with your bare hands and/or feet," "you can't do this with a Sneak Attack, you're either aiming for vital organs to maximize your damage or deliberately hitting less effectively than you could, not both," To clarify, unarmed strikes do nonlethal damage by default, and improved unarmed strike allows you to switch between lethal and nonlethal damage at will without penalty. A rogue can also use sneak attack with any weapon that does nonlethal damage by default, such as unarmed strikes or a sap.
I always imagined the Miko and Windstryker punched through the wall scene to be similar to the D12 is the barbarian's best friend scene where the barbarian rolls d12+537 damage and the victim is hoping he rolls low.
Yeah, that makes sense to me, roughly what I was thinking. His base attack is so strong that it doesn't matter how lightly he tries to hit with it.That's explicitly a power attack though.
There's no reason to think MitD's identity is going to be relevant to the plot, let alone important. MitD's plot relevance lies in what he does, not what he is.A. What he is defines what he can do, and B. if what he is is irrelevant then answer to what he is would not be satisfying.
A lot of people have asked me whether there is any actual answer to the mystery of the Monster in the Darkness that could possibly satisfy after so many years of wondering and guessing and weighing characteristics against existing monsters and otherwise just generally thinking about it.
The answer to that question is yes. Yes, there is.
We do not know if Monster-san is or is supposed to become involved with The Snarl. It is an interesting idea for which we have nothing to support or refute.We have the fact that he can cast a high level spell and that high level spells are needed to do anything with the gate.
While I've gone back and forth on the Protean over the years, as the story has progressed and we've seen more and more weird-looking monsters (Sunny, Lancer, Serini's froghemoth, Zz'dtri's piscodaemon, an otyugh) which provoke little to no reaction from the cast, it has become hard for me to accept simply a freaky-looking monster as an explanation for the circus scene and Xykon's reaction to MITD (this also plays a big role in why the Glabrezu is not in my top 3 choices anymore). Elan was recently nauseated by a humanoid mimic with five fingers on each hand.
Yes, you'd be surprised that a Protean is choosing to speak in an ordinary language, but would you really be surprised that it can speak in the first place?It explicitly speaks every single language in existence, so no.
Keltest
2023-11-20, 11:35 PM
We have the fact that he can cast a high level spell and that high level spells are needed to do anything with the gate.
I'm sorry, what?
InvisibleBison
2023-11-21, 12:08 AM
Mitd was either capable of limiting his strength but failed to so so, or was incapable of limiting his strength and thereby failed to do so by default. Given that there's no evidence either way, the question of which scenario is true is irrelevant, as both are possible until proven.
How does this statement disprove the possibility that MitD successfully limited the strength of his attack? You can't prove something false by assuming that it is in fact false.
And as stated previously, that does a pathetic 28 damage on average, or are you going to claim that the STR provides the knockback effect completely independently of the damage the attack does?
Given that the knockback displayed here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0803.html) was from an attack dealing at most 1d2+1 points of damage, I think it's safe to say that the knockback effect is in fact completely independent of the damage the attack deals.
GeoffWatson
2023-11-21, 12:22 AM
Given that the knockback displayed here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0803.html) was from an attack dealing at most 1d2+1 points of damage, I think it's safe to say that the knockback effect is in fact completely independent of the damage the attack deals.
That's a belt of giant strength there, much more than 1d2+1.
brian 333
2023-11-21, 01:06 AM
We have the fact that he can cast a high level spell and that high level spells are needed to do anything with the gate.
What gate?
3Power
2023-11-21, 01:17 AM
How does this statement disprove the possibility that MitD successfully limited the strength of his attack? You can't prove something false by assuming that it is in fact false.I have no intention of proving it false, that is not what I said. I said it was impossible to prove either way and thus irrelevant to the discussion.
Given that the knockback displayed here was from an attack dealing at most 1d2+1 points of damage, I think it's safe to say that the knockback effect is in fact completely independent of the damage the attack deals. Well it can't be STR, that's 13 at most.
That's a belt of giant strength there, much more than 1d2+1. No he's right. 3 STR + 1 level up bonus +6 magic item bonus + 2 animal companion bonus = STR score of 12(+1 bonus). Claw damage is 1d2, so total damage is 1d2 + 1. Though with power attack the +3 BAB from effective druid levels can be converted into +3 damage so 1d2 +4
Gurgeh
2023-11-21, 01:29 AM
It is extremely unlikely that Mr Scruffy has the Power Attack feat given it requries a minimum strength of 13 (and I don't think it is reasonable to assume that he steals Belts of Giant Strength on the regular in order to just barely qualify).
3Power
2023-11-21, 01:36 AM
It is extremely unlikely that Mr Scruffy has the Power Attack feat given it requries a minimum strength of 13 (and I don't think it is reasonable to assume that he steals Belts of Giant Strength on the regular in order to just barely qualify).
You are correct, nice catch.
Grey_Wolf_c
2023-11-21, 07:42 AM
That's a belt of giant strength there, much more than 1d2+1.
I believe it's already factored in. A cat's regular attack (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cat.htm) is 1d2-4.
And even if there is some bonuses to being a ranger's pet/brain, +2 damage from an extra 4 strength (or +3 dmg if it's the +6 type of giant (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0687.html)) is not "much more".
So yeah, in OotS it doesn't take much strength to send enemies flying backwards from a good hit. What it does take a lot of strength is for that enemy to break through a wall. Which we know because Roy (pre-belt) didn't manage to do so with Miko, but MitD did.
GW
InvisibleBison
2023-11-21, 08:58 AM
I have no intention of proving it false, that is not what I said.
No, it is what you said over here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25909034&postcount=74). I then asked why you thought this was the case, and you replied by reasserting your belief that it is the case. So I'll ask again: Do you have any evidence or argument to support your assertion that "we know [MitD] failed to [hit lightly]" in the tower scene, or are you simply ignoring the possibility that you might be wrong?
Tubercular Ox
2023-11-21, 10:11 AM
No, it is what you said over here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25909034&postcount=74). I then asked why you thought this was the case, and you replied by reasserting your belief that it is the case. So I'll ask again: Do you have any evidence or argument to support your assertion that "we know [MitD] failed to [hit lightly]" in the tower scene, or are you simply ignoring the possibility that you might be wrong?
It is literally a bigger attack than is possible under D&D rules for any monster under any conditions. If we assume that it is the Monster in the Dark successfully hitting lightly, how hard could the Monster in the Dark hit if it is not hitting lightly? Two mountain ranges?
If Rich had originally drawn the comic with Miko passing over two mountain ranges, nothing changes about the hitting lightly argument and from it we can conclude that two maintain ranges is the lightest the Monster in the Dark can hit.
The hitting lightly argument never changes no matter how big a hit Rich draws. Therefore the hitting lightly argument makes it impossible for Rich to draw the Monster in the Dark failing to hit lightly.
The hitting lightly argument is unfalsifiable.
Crusher
2023-11-21, 10:32 AM
No, it is what you said over here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25909034&postcount=74). I then asked why you thought this was the case, and you replied by reasserting your belief that it is the case. So I'll ask again: Do you have any evidence or argument to support your assertion that "we know [MitD] failed to [hit lightly]" in the tower scene, or are you simply ignoring the possibility that you might be wrong?
Yeah, I find myself siding with 3Power on this point. To be clear, I don't have specific evidence MitD failed to hit lightly, just the math of how we've calculated his STR and thinking about what the alternatives mean.
Is knocking a paladin through a stonewall and hundreds (maybe?) of feet through the air *really* the softest MitD can hit? I mean, really? At risk of repeating myself, I get that the damage from a STR bonus is a flat amount and there don't appear to be rules for doing reduced damage (other than non-lethal), but the 30 STR number was calculated assuming a full-effort hit using a min-maxed build.
If you think MitD was successfully hitting as lightly as he can in that scene, you're either arguing his STR is much higher than 30, probably more like 50-60+. OR you're arguing his "hits" must be gigantically hard relative to anything else he does with his STR (he didn't accidentally annihilate the rope when he pulled on it) for some reason.
brian 333
2023-11-21, 10:49 AM
Here is an analogy:
Bighorns (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ez7RUSCUhzk) can bump heads for fun, as young rams do, or they can get serious and really bash each other. But even with a young ram just playing, do you think a human butting heads with a bighorn is likely to end well for the human?
The lightest a bighorn can hit in play is probably fatal to a human. Does that mean the bighorn failed to hit lightly?
Tubercular Ox
2023-11-21, 11:00 AM
Alternate take:
Observe that the big hit is bigger than the biggest possible hit from the strongest possible monster under optimal conditions.
Assume that the big hit is the Monster in the Dark's lightest possible hit.
Then the Monster in the Dark's biggest possible hit does not hit as hard as its lightest possible hit.
Grey_Wolf_c
2023-11-21, 11:03 AM
Yeah, I find myself siding with 3Power on this point. To be clear, I don't have specific evidence MitD failed to hit lightly, just the math of how we've calculated his STR and thinking about what the alternatives mean.
First off: disclaimer. I don't read 3power's posts, so I have no idea who-said-what; that's not the point of this post. The point is to restate old arguments.
First, Nerdanel's numbers are what they are, nothing more, nothing less. Which, amongst other things, means they are not in any way "official". The conclusion I draw from them is not "this is mathematically what happened". What I draw from them is "what happened in the tower is outside the D&D RAW". I.e. that we are firmly in OotS RPG rules land*. Others may draw different conclusions from this. But what cannot be concluded is "MitD must have this build" because as you point out, that's a min/max build expending maximum effort, which is, at least as far as I am concerned, the exact opposite of what canon shows, thus my conclusion from it.
If you think MitD was successfully hitting as lightly as he can in that scene, you're either arguing his STR is much higher than 30, probably more like 50-60+. OR you're arguing his "hits" must be gigantically hard relative to anything else he does with his STR (he didn't accidentally annihilate the rope when he pulled on it) for some reason.
Yes, both of those have indeed been two main argumentative thrusts for ages, and in fact go hand in hand. Protean for example leans on "yeah, he's got strength 53, the lightest he can hit is still over twice as strong as the hardest a base human can hit". And yeah, MitD does have issues with pulling on things - he has said as much. And thus the argument goes that he finds it harder to pull than push because of his giant strength. Because of it, the argument goes, pulling requires him to be very careful since when not done carefully he risks fraying/snapping/bending ropes, handles, etc. Whereas pushing is easy for Strong!MitD because things he pushes presumably move easily enough for him. Even if they were really heavy. Even if they were, say, bolted to the ground beforehand, not that he noticed. But crucially, he is still capable of self-control that he can compensate and NOT snap the rope when he puts his mind to it (while still breaking toys and phylacteries when he is NOT paying full attention because he is instead playing with them as a child would).
So the full argument goes "he did try to hit lightly. And he succeeded, by the standards of his species. But the issue is that by the standard of his species, hitting lightly still causes horses to fly through walls.".
The alternative is that he is so incapable of self control that even though he tried to hit lightly, he in fact failed to do so and hit with maximum strength. But if he is so lacking in self-control, then the rope is a problem. Because the rope should snap when he uses it, if he really pulls with his full strength when he is merely trying to move the curtains. MitD should be constantly breaking things if he really had that poor self-control. And yet he is not. He does handle delicate things and he doesn't break them all the time. I thus find "MitD can't control his strength at all" unpersuasive. Not quite as much as "MitD deliberately used powers to hit even harder than he can by base", mind you.
In conclusion, as far as I am concerned, we can see that MitD has self-control when it comes to handling of "delicate" things (by his standards of man of steel, world of cardboard), which means he really does have megaton punches even when he dials them all the way down. See also "Dragon Z gang trying to enter the martial arts tournament without breaking the strength machine (except Vegeta (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srJ6jMlB8-c))". ETA: Or indeed brian 333's bighorn example.
Grey Wolf
*
As far as this thread goes, or any other attempt to align the events of the comic with D&D, my suggestion is to treat the comic as if it is based on "OOTS RPG," a hypothetical game that is exactly like D&D in every way—except for those ways that the comic shows that it isn't. Everything is D&D until proven otherwise
b_jonas
2023-11-21, 11:04 AM
If you think MitD was successfully hitting as lightly as he can in that scene, you're either arguing his STR is much higher than 30, probably more like 50-60+. We all know that his strength is probably 50, because 30 strength isn't enough to hit Miko and his horse through the stone wall. 30 is the minimum strength that we set as a lower limit for the FBS section so that it doesn't seem so empty an unwelcoming. Of course if you find a monster who has some oddly specific ability that helps him hit creatures through walls then the strength can be lower, but such candidates seem to be rare.
Metastachydium
2023-11-21, 12:48 PM
We all know that his strength is probably 50, because 30 strength isn't enough to hit Miko and his horse through the stone wall. 30 is the minimum strength that we set as a lower limit for the FBS section so that it doesn't seem so empty an unwelcoming. Of course if you find a monster who has some oddly specific ability that helps him hit creatures through walls then the strength can be lower, but such candidates seem to be rare.
Also note that STR 30 is the minimum value rewuired to punch through 1 inch of masonry, which is certainly less than the thickness of a defensive structure's wall should be.
Actually that made me realize something. Every creature has access to unarmed strike, so if the protean really wanted to hit as lightly as possible, he would do an off hand unarmed strike which would be 1d4 +10. Combine that with at-will shrinking, and the protean is now doing 1+6 damage.
Huh. Yes, that really is a fairly good argument against a shapechanger capable of altering its size and developing attack forms other than its standard fare at a moment's notice.
Emberlily
2023-11-21, 01:22 PM
trying to base this conclusively on [the total damage value of the attack] really doesn't seem to be very consistent with what we see, though. the aforementioned scene with scruffy launching a dog with an attack that wouldn't kill a 1st level fighter (assuming scruffy is doing the "all the 'separate attacks' are bundled into one big hit in the fiction of the comic" thing, like with roy vs miko. if it's just one attack it wouldn't even disable a 1st level commoner!) is one thing. there's also the fact that neither miko nor windstriker show those nearly-ubiquitous visible-signs-of-injury from the hit. that makes whether it did any notable damage at all very ambiguous (windstriker is drinking potions afterwards, yes, but we don't see their condition after taking the fall damage but before healing up). because being launched by attacks seems to be a way of simply showing that someone is particularly beefy (oots has run on cartoon physics before! see that one xykon decoy vs vaarsuvius and the general), it very well could have been 1+6 damage just as much as it could've been 1+25 or such. I just don't see trying to calculate either a high or low end based on damage values alone is useful (except perhaps "it did less damage than would have killed miko or windstriker instantly", I suppose)
Tubercular Ox
2023-11-21, 01:23 PM
Huh. Yes, that really is a fairly good argument against a shapechanger capable of altering its size and developing attack forms other than its standard fare at a moment's notice.
Maybe it's too busy manifesting a form with two fixed eyes to manifest as anything smaller than it is. 'Although, it did manifest its eyes at the same time as carrying O-Chul. And it held to its eyes while manifesting the Umbral Blot. So maybe it can manifest specialized limbs while maintaining its eyes.
Keltest
2023-11-21, 01:27 PM
trying to base this conclusively on [the total damage value of the attack] really doesn't seem to be very consistent with what we see, though. the aforementioned scene with scruffy launching a dog with an attack that wouldn't kill a 1st level fighter (assuming scruffy is doing the "all the 'separate attacks' are bundled into one big hit in the fiction of the comic" thing, like with roy vs miko. if it's just one attack it wouldn't even disable a 1st level commoner!) is one thing. there's also the fact that neither miko nor windstriker show those nearly-ubiquitous visible-signs-of-injury from the hit. that makes whether it did any notable damage at all very ambiguous (windstriker is drinking potions afterwards, yes, but we don't see their condition after taking the fall damage but before healing up). because being launched by attacks seems to be a way of simply showing that someone is particularly beefy (oots has run on cartoon physics before! see that one xykon decoy vs vaarsuvius and the general), it very well could have been 1+6 damage just as much as it could've been 1+25 or such. I just don't see trying to calculate either a high or low end based on damage values alone is useful (except perhaps "it did less damage than would have killed miko or windstriker instantly", I suppose)
I agree with the logic, but much like the earthquake ability, its been a tough time finding any ability that can send someone flying without maiming them in the process.
Metastachydium
2023-11-21, 01:31 PM
Maybe it's too busy manifesting a form with two fixed eyes to manifest as anything smaller than it is. 'Although, it did manifest its eyes at the same time as carrying O-Chul. And it held to its eyes while manifesting the Umbral Blot. So maybe it can manifest specialized limbs while maintaining its eyes.
Oh, right. And it must maintain its general shape and size! And the limb it holds the umbrella with! Truly, being an ever-shifting tide of flesh that can't ever shift at all must be a real burden.
3Power
2023-11-21, 01:32 PM
No, it is what you said over here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25909034&postcount=74). I then asked why you thought this was the case, and you replied by reasserting your belief that it is the case. So I'll ask again: Do you have any evidence or argument to support your assertion that "we know [MitD] failed to [hit lightly]" in the tower scene, or are you simply ignoring the possibility that you might be wrong?
Do you not consider statements from the author to be evidence? I don't understand what the disconnect is here.
I will requote the relevant statement with the important part highlighted.
I was able to explore the idea that the monster itself isn’t really aware of all of its capabilities. In #374, it tries to tap Miko lightly, but fails.
Here is an analogy:
Bighorns can bump heads for fun, as young rams do, or they can get serious and really bash each other. But even with a young ram just playing, do you think a human butting heads with a bighorn is likely to end well for the human?
The lightest a bighorn can hit in play is probably fatal to a human. Does that mean the bighorn failed to hit lightly?
The answer depends on semantics and relativity. But I would assume your answer is no, which means that because Rich says he did fail, this analogy does not apply to the scenario, and it's more accurately a launching garbage into space scenario. (https://youtu.be/jZMLLlDs3wU?t=32)
We all know that his strength is probably 50, because 30 strength isn't enough to hit Miko and his horse through the stone wall.
Also note that STR 30 is the minimum value rewuired to punch through 1 inch of masonry, which is certainly less than the thickness of a defensive structure's wall should be.
Thog knocks Roy through a stone floor with an estimated 28 STR. and damages a number of considerably thicker walls and pillars in the same sequence. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html)
I agree with the logic, but much like the earthquake ability, its been a tough time finding any ability that can send someone flying without maiming them in the process. Uh... not really. Telekinesis still exists. People just don't like to accept that OOTS RPG rules might apply to weight limits.
hroþila
2023-11-21, 01:34 PM
I just think a rules-based (as opposed to vibes-based) approach to the tower scene is futile. We need to consult Wile E. Coyote rather than Sir Isaac Newton
Metastachydium
2023-11-21, 01:35 PM
Thog knocks Roy through a stone floor with an estimated 28 STR. and damages a number of considerably thicker walls and pillars in the same sequence. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html)
I mean, all that tells us is STR 30 is an arbitrary figure.
I just think a rules-based (as opposed to vibes-based) approach to the tower scene is futile. We need to consult Wile E. Coyote rather than Sir Isaac Newton
Stop encouraging the Dragon Mod!
3Power
2023-11-21, 01:43 PM
I mean, all that tells us is STR 30 is an arbitrary figure.
Always has been.
I just think a rules-based (as opposed to vibes-based) approach to the tower scene is futile. We need to consult Wile E. Coyote rather than Sir Isaac NewtonUnfortunately the FBS still has 30 STR listed, and doesn't account for the possibility of OOTS RPG methods of shrinking so until everyone agrees to get rid of that criteria it will continue to be discussed.
Tubercular Ox
2023-11-21, 01:55 PM
I’d like to propose that the Monster in the Dark is a Therblewurkersaurus. A Therblewurkersaurus is just like a Protean, except it doesn’t have any Protean abilities that would embarrass it.
It can’t change its size, so it’s stuck at super strength for the big hit.
It doesn’t change shape against its will, so it can have fixed eyes, mouth, and other appendages.
It doesn’t have +59 Bluff, so it can struggle to Bluff Xykon away from Girard’s Gate
It doesn’t have dimension door, ethereal jaunt, or knock, so it’s helpless to acquire the steak in the jungle scene.
It doesn’t have 39 SR, Blinding Speed, and Destabilize Form, and it can’t manifest Pounce, so it can’t go 100ft, pounce for a full attack, hit with 5 slam attacks, and literally liquefy Redcloak in a single round, with Redcloak not being able to pierce its SR with any of his spells, which explains why Redcloak is not frightened of it.
Also, it doesn’t have +32 Will save to go with that 39 SR, so Xykon can land a mid-level mind-affecting spell on it without comment.
Also also, because it doesn’t have Destabilize Form, Xykon has to order it to swallow Redcloak whole instead of just liquefying him.
Grey_Wolf_c
2023-11-21, 02:08 PM
Every creature has access to unarmed strike, so if the protean really wanted to hit as lightly as possible, he would do an off hand unarmed strike which would be 1d4 +10. Combine that with at-will shrinking, and the protean is now doing 1+6 damage.
Huh. Yes, that really is a fairly good argument against a shapechanger capable of altering its size and developing attack forms other than its standard fare at a moment's notice.
Can someone break down for me why a shapechanger in general, and a protean in particular, would go from +21 damage on their attack to 1+6 because of changing size? 'Cause I don't see a reference to strength changing with size, only the attack bonus (which goes up, presumably because every target is now much bigger, from their new perspective). And the protean explicitly says that he retains its own base attack bonus and Strength modifier to damage when using other shapes' attack types. I tried to figure it out myself but I got lost in the interaction between natural weapons, unarmed strikes and off-hand attacks.
Grey Wolf
InvisibleBison
2023-11-21, 02:28 PM
Do you not consider statements from the author to be evidence? I don't understand what the disconnect is here.
I will requote the relevant statement with the important part highlighted.
The disconnect is that we interpret that statement differently. As I see it, the Giant is saying that MitD tried to hit lightly in absolute terms, ie only dealing minimal damage or dealing no damage at all, and failed to do so because he is so enormously strong. This doesn't contradict the idea that MitD did still hit as lightly as it was possible for him to do.
Can someone break down for me why a shapechanger in general, and a protean in particular, would go from +21 damage on their attack to 1+6 because of changing size? 'Cause I don't see a reference to strength changing with size, only the attack bonus (which goes up, presumably because every target is now much bigger, from their new perspective). And the protean explicitly says that he retains its own base attack bonus and Strength modifier to damage when using other shapes' attack types. I tried to figure it out myself but I got lost in the interaction between natural weapons, unarmed strikes and off-hand attacks.
Grey Wolf
Some people think the rules (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases) for adjusting monsters' physical ability scores when they increase in size due to gaining additional racial hit dice are actually general rules for how to adjust creatures' physical scores whenever they change size. Under this reasoning (which I don't think is correct), a protean that assumed a Fine size shape would decrease its Strength score to 35. It would then manifest a natural weapon that did a base of 1 point of damage (not hard to do when you're Fine). If it could also somehow use that weapon as a secondary attack (which can sometimes occur for creatures that only have one attack, such as a camel (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/camel.htm) or a work horse (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/horse.htm)), it would only add half of its Strength modifier to the damage.
Metastachydium
2023-11-21, 02:45 PM
Can someone break down for me why a shapechanger in general, and a protean in particular, would go from +21 damage on their attack to 1+6 because of changing size? 'Cause I don't see a reference to strength changing with size, only the attack bonus (which goes up, presumably because every target is now much bigger, from their new perspective). And the protean explicitly says that he retains its own base attack bonus and Strength modifier to damage when using other shapes' attack types. I tried to figure it out myself but I got lost in the interaction between natural weapons, unarmed strikes and off-hand attacks.
Grey Wolf
Some people think the rules (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases) for adjusting monsters' physical ability scores when they increase in size due to gaining additional racial hit dice are actually general rules for how to adjust creatures' physical scores whenever they change size. Under this reasoning (which I don't think is correct),
A fair assumption, of course, given that while changing size tends to correlate with changes to Strength, those values are not neccessarily taken into account (v. Enlarge/Reduce Person).
It would then manifest a natural weapon that did a base of 1 point of damage (not hard to do when you're Fine).
Correct.
If it could also somehow use that weapon as a secondary attack (which can sometimes occur for creatures that only have one attack, such as a camel (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/camel.htm) or a work horse (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/horse.htm)), it would only add half of its Strength modifier to the damage.
Correct again, and it's even easy to pull if one wants to pull it. All the Protean would have to do was ditch all primary attacks other than its base slams, use those to hit something other than Miko and then use a weak, freshly manifested natural attack to hit Miko with. (Also, at any rate, while a creature's Strength doesn't neccessarily fluctuate in patterns following the Improving Monsters table, decreasing size means decreasing base damage for attacks, meaning that the primary slams would have 1d2+STR).
In short, yes, a Protean should be able to choose to hit for 1+11 damage, a marked and real decrease from its base values.
Also, there's the sticking point that if MitD could willingly change its size and so minimize the damage he deals, and did do so, we should have been able to observe the massive change in size.
Doug Lampert
2023-11-21, 05:05 PM
A fair assumption, of course, given that while changing size tends to correlate with changes to Strength, those values are not neccessarily taken into account (v. Enlarge/Reduce Person).
As enlarge or reduce person show, the specific mechanism for changing size also lists the ability changes that it causes (reduce person is -2 to strength for a reduced size category).
The table is for size changes due to increased HD on a monster, applying it blindly to all size changes has no rules support.
The reason the FBS scales strength for size changes down is not because of some general rule that size changes from any cause scale by that table, it's because we've got exactly two examples of monsters that scale down from adult size due to youth in the rules, and giants lose exactly 8 strength per size category while dragons lose approximately 8 strength per size category and no change seems unreasonable. Scaling the MitD down in size if it is too big to fit under the umbrella means either houseruling or the dungeonbred template, and if Rich is houseruling down size, then it's not unreasonable to expect him to also houserule down strength, as the examples in the rules of that happening show.
But a listed (Ex) ability? That HAS its rules listed in the ability, and says nothing about losing size. And even if it said, "Scale strength based on size as per the size increase table in the improving monsters section of the MM (you'll need to calculate this yourself, reduce rather than increase for smaller sizes)", that still would give 35 strength at fine, which is enough to make smashing someone through a wall by pure strength plausible.
Can someone break down for me why a shapechanger in general, and a protean in particular, would go from +21 damage on their attack to 1+6 because of changing size? 'Cause I don't see a reference to strength changing with size, only the attack bonus (which goes up, presumably because every target is now much bigger, from their new perspective). And the protean explicitly says that he retains its own base attack bonus and Strength modifier to damage when using other shapes' attack types. I tried to figure it out myself but I got lost in the interaction between natural weapons, unarmed strikes and off-hand attacks.
Grey Wolf
Bolding for emphasis.
Huh. Yes, that really is a fairly good argument against a shapechanger capable of altering its size and developing attack forms other than its standard fare at a moment's notice.
Maybe it's too busy manifesting a form with two fixed eyes to manifest as anything smaller than it is. 'Although, it did manifest its eyes at the same time as carrying O-Chul. And it held to its eyes while manifesting the Umbral Blot. So maybe it can manifest specialized limbs while maintaining its eyes.
Also, there's the sticking point that if MitD could willingly change its size and so minimize the damage he deals, and did do so, we should have been able to observe the massive change in size.
"A protean can assume the shape of any combination of physical nondeific creatures at the same time as a free action."
(emphasis mine)
I don't know why you assume that the Protean would definitely change size when it shifts. If it consciously changes into a single creature, sure, but a)I see no reason why we should assume MitD would do that here, and b)We have loads of evidence the MITD doesn't even know what he is (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) or how he does the things he does (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html), which makes it even less likely he would purposely shift into a smaller/weaker creature-- because he doesn't know how his powers work or how to control them.
It reads to me like "MitD is not a Protean because he didn't change size/shape in the way I assumed he would, even though he doesn't even know what he is or that he can do that."
Crusher
2023-11-22, 12:51 AM
MitD should be constantly breaking things if he really had that poor self-control. And yet he is not. He does handle delicate things and he doesn't break them all the time. I thus find "MitD can't control his strength at all" unpersuasive.
I mostly agree with your points, but I quibble with this one. Just because he might sometimes accidentally break things (as his reputation says he does), doesn't mean he always does. Other than, ironically, Miko herself, I can't think of a time when he's smashed something accidentally on-screen but we're told its something he does. So, maybe he *does* break half the bowls he eats popcorn from, it just happens off-screen and isn't considered a big deal because they're just bowls.
I agree with the logic, but much like the earthquake ability, its been a tough time finding any ability that can send someone flying without maiming them in the process.
I did the math on this a while back, and, using real-world physics, if you punch (rather than push) someone so hard you actually knock them up in the air (rather than just knocking them over) you're almost certainly going to inflict massive internal injuries, because you have to hit someone HARD to do that.
Grey_Wolf_c
2023-11-22, 01:21 AM
I mostly agree with your points, but I quibble with this one. Just because he might sometimes accidentally break things (as his reputation says he does), doesn't mean he always does. Other than, ironically, Miko herself, I can't think of a time when he's smashed something accidentally on-screen but we're told its something he does. So, maybe he *does* break half the bowls he eats popcorn from, it just happens off-screen and isn't considered a big deal because they're just bowls.
I'm confused. That's my point as well: I don't think the argument that he hit hard because he can't control his own strength is plausible, because if it was, we would see him break things all the time. And yet, like you (and I) point out we don't, thus why I don't think the argument holds water. Instead, I think he failed at hitting light because the lightest that MitD can hit is still hard enough to punch horses through walls.
I did the math on this a while back, and, using real-world physics, if you punch (rather than push) someone so hard you actually knock them up in the air (rather than just knocking them over) you're almost certainly going to inflict massive internal injuries, because you have to hit someone HARD to do that.
Yeah, but OotS most definitely doesn't run on real world physics. V's body was used to demolish a mountain and it barely scuffed them. And that's before going into the relative hardness of rock vis-a-vis humanoid flesh.
GW
Peelee
2023-11-22, 01:27 AM
Stop encouraging the Dragon Mod!
l
NOBODY LISTEN TO THE FLOWER.
Tubercular Ox
2023-11-22, 09:48 AM
So if the threads of creation instantly liquify people, maybe Rich is trying to create a connection between the threads of creation and the Protean's Destabilize Form ability, that instantly liquifies people.
Metastachydium
2023-11-22, 02:49 PM
Yeah, but OotS most definitely doesn't run on real world physics. V's body was used to demolish a mountain and it barely scuffed them.
Come on, that was barely a rock!
"A protean can assume the shape of any combination of physical nondeific creatures at the same time as a free action."
(emphasis mine)
I don't know why you assume that the Protean would definitely change size when it shifts.
It wouldn't and I don't. That's not my point.
If it consciously changes into a single creature, sure, but a)I see no reason why we should assume MitD would do that here, and b)We have loads of evidence the MITD doesn't even know what he is (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) or how he does the things he does (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html), which makes it even less likely he would purposely shift into a smaller/weaker creature-- because he doesn't know how his powers work or how to control them.
It reads to me like "MitD is not a Protean because he didn't change size/shape in the way I assumed he would, even though he doesn't even know what he is or that he can do that."
The point is, the shapeshifting itself might be the main selling point of the Protean, but it is also its main weakness. See, the Monster never ever once exhibits any clear sign of shifting its shape, which is odd, given how (as you have just cited), it changing its features is a trivial non-action, whereas maintaining them has an actual action cost. So… What do we even have here?
a. The Monster has no control over its shapeshifting whatsoever, because he doesn't understand it. In this case, how he always has two eyes and an appendage at a fixed position, the former having a fixed appearance, as well as always having a mouth-equivalent orifice seemingly at a fixed position when he appears to insert things into it is mighty odd.
OR
b. The Monster can consciously control its shape. An assumption readily contradicted by his own admissions of no understanding.
OR
c. It's vibes-based and instinctive, with features manifesting to cater for his needs without him understanding how the process works. In which case it is odd that he can apparently partial-transform into an Umbral Blot to use an obscure ability he has trouble even naming properly, but when he simply tries to hit lightly, he doesn't even get smaller, although he could trivially achieve that. (I presented the math: it doesn't take weird epic abilities for a full Protean to reduce the damage output of a single hit to a measly 1+11 points.)
mashlagoo1982
2023-11-22, 03:40 PM
c. It's vibes-based and instinctive, with features manifesting to cater for his needs without him understanding how the process works.
This got me thinking about two of the instances where MitD displayed some of its power.
In one instance where it launched Miko, she wanted to hit it harder to overcome what she perceived as DR.
For the Escape scene, I think it is safe to assume V and O-Chul wanted to flee.
Maybe somehow MitD picked up on both of those. Instead of hitting lightly when attacking Miko, it sensed Miko's true desire to attack at full strength and (without its own knowledge) MitD attack back at full strength itself?
The reading of desire obviously worked out better for V and O-Chul. They wanted to get away from Xykon and lived.
I have no idea if there is a creature that could do this... but it is an interesting thought to me.
I wonder if there are other examples of this behavior. The stomping scene doesn't fit this observation. Unless it was reading the desire of the demon roach, probably not though.
tldr: Maybe MitD mirrors some feats/powers/strength/etc based on what individuals want or desire? We would probably would see different behavior from MitD with it being around Xykon. I think it's known Xykon desires MitD to be more ruthless (and it isn't).
Tubercular Ox
2023-11-22, 04:25 PM
Maybe somehow MitD picked up on both of those. Instead of hitting lightly when attacking Miko, it sensed Miko's true desire to attack at full strength and (without its own knowledge) MitD attack back at full strength itself?
The Protean does have detect thoughts at will and the ability to have access to its powers only when it wouldn't embarrass it to have them, so we can probably ignore why it didn't use this ability on Xykon here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0103.html).
Sky_Schemer
2023-11-22, 06:16 PM
I am still on Team Slaad. When I read through that list of cons, they all stem from fluff rather than crunch, and fluff is much easier to change for the story. And there has been enough variation on Slaads over the years that there is plenty of wiggle room. And unlike proteans, a slaad is going to be recognizable. If it's a protean, I suspect most people are going to be scratching their heads at the reveal.
The only major objection is about it possibly being product identity, but Sunny's place in the current storyline undercuts that one pretty significantly.
And for that last reason, I am also on Team Snorlax. Mostly because I just really want it to be a Snorlax.
Somniloquist
2023-11-22, 07:39 PM
And I'm also Team Snorlax, but put my vote down as Uvuudaum, if only because it's far more bizarre-looking.
Crusher
2023-11-23, 06:42 PM
I am still on Team Slaad. When I read through that list of cons, they all stem from fluff rather than crunch, and fluff is much easier to change for the story. And there has been enough variation on Slaads over the years that there is plenty of wiggle room. And unlike proteans, a slaad is going to be recognizable. If it's a protean, I suspect most people are going to be scratching their heads at the reveal.
The only major objection is about it possibly being product identity, but Sunny's place in the current storyline undercuts that one pretty significantly.
And for that last reason, I am also on Team Snorlax. Mostly because I just really want it to be a Snorlax.
So, are you saying your guess is that its approximately equal between Slaad and Snorlax, or are you primarily on Team Slaad and only secondarily on Team Snorlax?
And I'm also Team Snorlax, but put my vote down as Uvuudaum, if only because it's far more bizarre-looking.
So noted!
I'll probably update the league tables soon-ish.
Peelee
2023-11-23, 06:49 PM
So, are you saying your guess is that its approximately equal between Slaad and Snorlax, or are you primarily on Team Slaad and only secondarily on Team Snorlax?
Snorlaad?.
See, the Monster never ever once exhibits any clear sign of shifting its shape, which is odd, given how (as you have just cited), it changing its features is a trivial non-action, whereas maintaining them has an actual action cost. So… What do we even have here?
a. The Monster has no control over its shapeshifting whatsoever, because he doesn't understand it. In this case, how he always has two eyes and an appendage at a fixed position, the former having a fixed appearance, as well as always having a mouth-equivalent orifice seemingly at a fixed position when he appears to insert things into it is mighty odd.
I'm sure I've said this many times before, but "Why doesn't Rich draw the MitD in a way that makes it obvious what he is?" is an argument that's easily rebutted by the whole concept of keeping his species a mystery.
Errorname
2023-11-23, 08:57 PM
I'm sure I've said this many times before, but "Why doesn't Rich draw the MitD in a way that makes it obvious what he is?" is an argument that's easily rebutted by the whole concept of keeping his species a mystery.
Right, but having to really bend the physical appearance of the monster so that it doesn't make it's identity obvious is a major con of the Protean. It might not be a dealbreaker, but it is a drawback.
brian 333
2023-11-23, 09:00 PM
I'm sure I've said this many times before, but "Why doesn't Rich draw the MitD in a way that makes it obvious what he is?" is an argument that's easily rebutted by the whole concept of keeping his species a mystery.
He doesn't want to ruin the Guess MitD's Species game in the twenty-something threads over the years since MitD first spoke from the shadows. I mean, there are readers who regularly check the comic hoping this time they will discover The Clue™ that allows them to win the game!
Tubercular Ox
2023-11-23, 09:31 PM
I'm sure I've said this many times before, but "Why doesn't Rich draw the MitD in a way that makes it obvious what he is?" is an argument that's easily rebutted by the whole concept of keeping his species a mystery.
Why would it be obvious? There are so many shapechanging monsters they get their own subtype. People could be sweating through those as avidly as they sweat monsters that can pass the Circus Scene.
Why is the Circus Scene not "making it obvious" but showing even one alternate set of eyes is?
Personally I think Rich is working to show us the right monster's abilities, one by one, and the extent to which he hides them is to simply not say their names.
Grey_Wolf_c
2023-11-24, 12:08 AM
Right, but having to really bend the physical appearance of the monster so that it doesn't make it's identity obvious is a major con of the Protean. It might not be a dealbreaker, but it is a drawback.
One that has been listed in the OP for quite literally over a decade. So at the very least, I really wish those that dislike the protean would come up with either a new objection, or cease retreading old ground. Yes, we get it, they don't like it because they feel that a creature frequently accused of being lazy might have been spending every move action retaining a face to fit in is implausible. But coming here to tell us "I don't buy that it's a protean because there is no overt evidence of changing shape" like this is some major revelation become boring... I don't know, six or seven years ago now?
Grey Wolf
Tubercular Ox
2023-11-24, 12:36 AM
Why is it a surprise that it’s talking?
Why is the Jungle a surprising place to find it?
Why does it smell?
Why don’t the goblins recoil in abject horror at the sight of it?
Why does Xykon think it can swallow things whole?
Why does Xykon think it can vomit the amulet back out?
Why does it break its toys?
Why isn’t it as scary as it should be?
Why can’t it figure out what a Gate is?
How does it shout, “STOP!” ?
How does it do the earthquake?
Why does it hope for things and expect them to happen?
Why does Rich keep telling jokes about it eating sentients?
Why was its father really big? All Proteans are Large.
How does it know Tsukiko has half a ritual?
How does it know what the Astral Plane is?
Why does Oona call it a beast? It’s a monstrosity.
How does it manage trenchant political analysis?
What did Xykon read that made him think the Monster in the Dark wants to eat dwarves?
The Protean can answer none of these with its character sheet. Nearly the entire case for the Protean is a game of pretending that the stuff the thread makes up must be what Rich made up, which itself is premised on the idea that Rich made the Monster in the Dark a Therblewurkersaurus in a dozen scenes so that it could be a Protean in three.
Errorname
2023-11-24, 01:08 AM
One that has been listed in the OP for quite literally over a decade. So at the very least, I really wish those that dislike the protean would come up with either a new objection, or cease retreading old ground.
For the record, I quite like the Protean, I think it's the strongest of the proposed candidates by quite a bit. But the shapeshifting thing is still a pretty big hitch, and it's what's keeping me from going all-in on the Protean.
Why would it be obvious? There are so many shapechanging monsters they get their own subtype. People could be sweating through those as avidly as they sweat monsters that can pass the Circus Scene.
If the monster was obviously a shapechanger that narrows down the possibilities to a specific subtype of monster, which would drastically reduce the number of viable candidates and make it a lot more obvious.
Right, but having to really bend the physical appearance of the monster so that it doesn't make it's identity obvious is a major con of the Protean. It might not be a dealbreaker, but it is a drawback.
I don't agree it "really bends" anything. We see two eyes in the dark. We don't know what's going on underneath that.
Why would it be obvious? There are so many shapechanging monsters they get their own subtype.
How many of them fit the other scenes? How many of them have shapechanging powers that work in the particular manner of the Protean's?
Why is it a surprise that it’s talking?
Why is the Jungle a surprising place to find it?
Why does it smell?
Why don’t the goblins recoil in abject horror at the sight of it?
Why does Xykon think it can swallow things whole?
Why does Xykon think it can vomit the amulet back out?
Why does it break its toys?
Why isn’t it as scary as it should be?
Why can’t it figure out what a Gate is?
How does it shout, “STOP!” ?
How does it do the earthquake?
Why does it hope for things and expect them to happen?
Why does Rich keep telling jokes about it eating sentients?
Why was its father really big? All Proteans are Large.
How does it know Tsukiko has half a ritual?
How does it know what the Astral Plane is?
Why does Oona call it a beast? It’s a monstrosity.
How does it manage trenchant political analysis?
What did Xykon read that made him think the Monster in the Dark wants to eat dwarves?
The Protean can answer none of these with its character sheet.
Quite a few can indeed, just off the top of my head. The language one certainly. The intelligence and detect thoughts at will for some of the others. Others I do not understand how they are a question. ("How does it shout 'STOP'?" With a voice, which it has.) Others yet I don't think necessarily have anything to do with its species, or even will be answered. ("What did Xykon read that made him think the Monster in the Dark wants to eat dwarves?" Who knows? What does it matter? Xykon and Redcloak think the MitD eats a lot and will eat anything, we know that.)
One that has been listed in the OP for quite literally over a decade. So at the very least, I really wish those that dislike the protean would come up with either a new objection, or cease retreading old ground. Yes, we get it, they don't like it because they feel that a creature frequently accused of being lazy might have been spending every move action retaining a face to fit in is implausible. But coming here to tell us "I don't buy that it's a protean because there is no overt evidence of changing shape" like this is some major revelation become boring... I don't know, six or seven years ago now?
Grey Wolf
Yeah, I should just stop because we're just rehashing the same things over and over at this point. I just get a little frustrated by arguments that misrepresent the Protean's powers or essentially ask "If the MITD is a Protean, why hasn't Rich shown us the most defining and distinctive characteristic of that species, which he is trying to keep a secret?"
Errorname
2023-11-24, 02:54 AM
I don't agree it "really bends" anything. We see two eyes in the dark. We don't know what's going on underneath that.
Yeah, really bends is an overstatement, and in truth I could easily see a protean design that kept the eyes consistent just so that the character would have some familiar point of reference. It's something which doesn't sit right with me, but that doesn't mean it's a dealbreaker. The eyes in general aren't particularly diagnostic. They were introduced well before the monster's identity was decided and it'd be pretty easy to incorporate them into a design that didn't explicitly feature them. Like if MITD was the red-eyed Athasian Nightmare Beast for example, I could easily imagine the final design being drawn with Lammergeier-style eyes with yellow irises and red sclera to mesh the description with how the monster has been portrayed.
Tubercular Ox
2023-11-24, 10:34 AM
The language one certainly.
They can speak and understand the language of any other creature. It's only surprising when the Therblewurkersaurus speaks common.
The intelligence
And the Therblewurkersaurus has Knowledge (arcana), so Tsukiko's ritual is covered.
detect thoughts at will for some of the others.
If it's so easy for it to use detect thoughts that Rich doesn't even have to signal that it's using any ability at all, why can't it use detect thoughts in the scene where it's trying to please Xykon and can't figure it out (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0103.html)? I guess the Therblewurkersaurus doesn't have detect thoughts?
Others I do not understand how they are a question. ("How does it shout 'STOP'?" With a voice, which it has.) Others yet I don't think necessarily have anything to do with its species, or even will be answered. ("What did Xykon read that made him think the Monster in the Dark wants to eat dwarves?" Who knows? What does it matter? Xykon and Redcloak think the MitD eats a lot and will eat anything, we know that.)
The Therblewurkersaurus has a powerful voice. The Therblewurkersaurus has books written about its love for dwarves. The Therblewurkersaurus is always hungry.
Your story is that Rich wrote a Therblewurkersaurus that sometimes looks like a Protean.
"If the MITD is a Protean, why hasn't Rich shown us the most defining and distinctive characteristic of that species, which he is trying to keep a secret?"
Then maybe he should've shown some of the less obvious features of the Protean, instead of writing a Therblewurkersaurus:
spell resistance
destabilize form
Its entire SLA list: detect thoughts, dimension door, ethereal jaunt, knock, nondetection, plane shift, suggestion.
Its entire skill list: Bluff +59, Diplomacy +53, Disguise +59, Hide +35, Intimidate +47, Jump +29, Listen +55, Move Silently +35, Sense Motive +29, Spot +55
Its entire feat list: Alertness, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Endurance, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Multiattack, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (slam), Blinding Speed, Devastating Critical (slam), Overwhelming Critical (slam)
If Rich isn't going to show the most defining and distinctive characteristics, and he prefers to invent useless details instead of using actual details of the Protean, then the guessing game is dead.
Metastachydium
2023-11-24, 02:32 PM
I'm sure I've said this many times before, but "Why doesn't Rich draw the MitD in a way that makes it obvious what he is?" is an argument that's easily rebutted by the whole concept of keeping his species a mystery.
If the Protean's main selling point makes it a poor fit on account of it being
a. either too difficult to guess becasue it cannot be accurately depicted without spoiling the game; or
b. too easy to guess if depicted accurately
that doesn't make pointing that out a poor argument. It makes the Protean a poor fit.
I don't agree it "really bends" anything. We see two eyes in the dark. We don't know what's going on underneath that.
We never see anything clearly indicating constant shapeshifting (or even occasional shapeshifting), but we do see things staying constant (rough size, the eyes, having an umbrealla-supporting appendage, having a mouth-equivalent something-something, all with basically unchanging positions…) which tells us that… Constant shapeshifting is going on?
Yeah, I should just stop because we're just rehashing the same things over and over at this point. I just get a little frustrated by arguments that misrepresent the Protean's powers or essentially ask "If the MITD is a Protean, why hasn't Rich shown us the most defining and distinctive characteristic of that species, which he is trying to keep a secret?"
You're frustrated over people asking "why a creature that is constant shapeshifting incarnate never seem to do that"? I find that baffling, myself. The shapeshifting is the entire reason why the Protean is a better candidate than most other epic bull**** creatures.
Tubercular Ox
2023-11-24, 02:54 PM
You're frustrated over people asking "why a creature that is constant shapeshifting incarnate never seem to do that"? I find that baffling, myself. The shapeshifting is the entire reason why the Protean is a better candidate than most other epic bull**** creatures.
And the reveal isn't even going to fix it. Now we know it's a Protean and we still have to wonder why Rich didn't just write it better, with even a single hint of its shapeshifting.
I've always tried to see the story as it's going to exist after the reveal. I can't see people looking at the story, knowing it's a Protean, and thinking that Rich did anything but squander his resources on a dozen red herrings that did nothing but sell the Protean as something it isn't. It just doesn't fit.
InvisibleBison
2023-11-24, 04:01 PM
And the reveal isn't even going to fix it. Now we know it's a Protean and we still have to wonder why Rich didn't just write it better, with even a single hint of its shapeshifting.
How exactly could the Giant hint at MitD being a shapeshifter without giving away at least that huge part of the puzzle if not the whole thing? Bear in mind that a protean doesn't change sizes due to its passive shapeshifting, and that the only part of MitD we ever see is his eyes.
b_jonas
2023-11-24, 04:03 PM
why can't it use detect thoughts in the scene where it's trying to please Xykon and can't figure it out (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0103.html)? Detect thoughts is a mind-affecting spell (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectThoughts.htm) and undead, such as Xykon, are immune to all mind-affecting effects (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType). This is useful, since we know from #106 5th and #109 that Xykon was specifically trying to bluff the adventurers, and as far as he Xykon knows, either Elan or Vaarsuvius could be capable of using a Detect Thoughts spell.
Contrast this to the Escape. #653 7th to 11th shows that Xykon just dispelled Vaarsuvius's Mind Blank, and that after that she was vulnerable to mind-affecting effects. Further, Vaarsuvius was hindered by the Mind fog that Tsukiko cast on her, and that spell adds a heavy penalty to will saves. This means that if the MitD tried to use Detect thoughts on Vaarsuvius, he would likely succeed.
hroþila
2023-11-24, 04:27 PM
How exactly could the Giant hint at MitD being a shapeshifter without giving away at least that huge part of the puzzle if not the whole thing? Bear in mind that a protean doesn't change sizes due to its passive shapeshifting, and that the only part of MitD we ever see is his eyes.
He could change the relative position of the eyes and the umbrella
Tubercular Ox
2023-11-24, 05:05 PM
How exactly could the Giant hint at MitD being a shapeshifter without giving away at least that huge part of the puzzle if not the whole thing? Bear in mind that a protean doesn't change sizes due to its passive shapeshifting, and that the only part of MitD we ever see is his eyes.
Why is that a huge part of the puzzle? Rich told us outright that the monster has a smell and can swallow creatures whole, and not a single FBS monster has both those abilities, so clearly a nod or two to shapeshifting would've gone unnoticed until after the reveal, or until after people were so sure it was a Protean it jumped out at them. Except we're there and it doesn't. There are no scenes that hint at any kind of shapeshifting, just attempts to use shapeshifting to cheat the guessing game.
In contrast, Rich could've made the entire plot about shapeshifting. Start with a climb speed, then a fly speed, then a swim speed, and people are thinking, "Alter self," then keep upping the ante until only one monster can do everything that's been seen.
If I can write a better Protean story with a few minutes effort than Rich can manage in 20 years, there is a problem with the Protean.
Why is that a huge part of the puzzle? Rich told us outright that the monster has a smell and can swallow creatures whole,
No and no.
The creature asked if the big game hunters were ignoring what he was saying because of his smell. (They weren't.)
Xykon assumed that if the creature eats a lot, he's able to swallow Redcloak whole.
If I can write a better Protean story with a few minutes effort than Rich can manage in 20 years, there is a problem with the Protean.
S'a big if.
Keltest
2023-11-24, 05:33 PM
How exactly could the Giant hint at MitD being a shapeshifter without giving away at least that huge part of the puzzle if not the whole thing? Bear in mind that a protean doesn't change sizes due to its passive shapeshifting, and that the only part of MitD we ever see is his eyes.
If all the clues for your guessing game rely on information that you can't share without ruining the game, its a bad guessing game. Now obviously the game isn't over yet, so I can't definitively say that he didn't do that, but it's such an obvious pitfall I struggle to imagine Rich picking a monster that constrains him that much.
Tubercular Ox
2023-11-24, 05:50 PM
No and no.
The creature asked if the big game hunters were ignoring what he was saying because of his smell. (They weren't.)
Xykon assumed that if the creature eats a lot, he's able to swallow Redcloak whole.
This is still a Therblewurkersaurus. I don't care if the Therblewurkersaurus can swallow things whole or just likes to eat a lot, both traits belong to a creature Rich made up and decided to write about instead of the Protean.
Why is Rich writing about any creature other than a Protean? And why does Rich write about it something like three times as often as he writes about the Protean?
Peelee
2023-11-24, 07:39 PM
If I can write a better Protean story with a few minutes effort than Rich can manage in 20 years, there is a problem with the Protean.
10 characters.
If I conquer your city, I will destroy you all.
If.
OvisCaedo
2023-11-24, 07:54 PM
If all the clues for your guessing game rely on information that you can't share without ruining the game, its a bad guessing game. Now obviously the game isn't over yet, so I can't definitively say that he didn't do that, but it's such an obvious pitfall I struggle to imagine Rich picking a monster that constrains him that much.
I'm not sure that he picked it to BE a guessing game, so much as decided a guessing game would be amusing to do with what he'd picked.
Tubercular Ox
2023-11-24, 07:55 PM
"My God, is it talking? In common, no less." -- "My God, it's talking in Common? How polite for it!" (and its undying hatred for nonshapechanging beings)
"Never expected to see one in this part of the world" -- "You can never guess where one of these will turn up" (Climate/Terrain: Any)
"Sorry about the smell" -- "Sorry my eye keeps drifting."
"OK OK, you can do this" -- "Gosh, I love the light, thank goodness they're letting me out."
"Almost everyone ... recoils in abject horror at the sight of you, so I'd say we're your only fans." --- "... it's a good thing Goblins have strong stomachs." (Or any excuse at all is better than none.)
"You will devour him whole and spit out that gold amulet he wears" -- "You will liquefy him on the spot and bring me the gold amulet he wears."
Bam, now Start of Darkness features a Protean.
hroþila
2023-11-24, 07:57 PM
10 characters.
[Editor's note: Philip then proceeded to invade and kick Spartan ass]
Peelee
2023-11-24, 08:06 PM
[Editor's note: Philip then proceeded to invade and kick Spartan ass]
The point here is it's a good line.
Keltest
2023-11-24, 08:28 PM
The point here is it's a good line.
I automatically read it in Christopher Judge's voice too.
JNAProductions
2023-11-24, 08:31 PM
"My God, is it talking? In common, no less." -- "My God, it's talking in Common? How polite for it!" (and its undying hatred for nonshapechanging beings)
"Never expected to see one in this part of the world" -- "You can never guess where one of these will turn up" (Climate/Terrain: Any)
"Sorry about the smell" -- "Sorry my eye keeps drifting."
"OK OK, you can do this" -- "Gosh, I love the light, thank goodness they're letting me out."
"Almost everyone ... recoils in abject horror at the sight of you, so I'd say we're your only fans." --- "... it's a good thing Goblins have strong stomachs." (Or any excuse at all is better than none.)
"You will devour him whole and spit out that gold amulet he wears" -- "You will liquefy him on the spot and bring me the gold amulet he wears."
Bam, now Start of Darkness features a Protean.
That’s not a very good story. It’s certainly not entertaining, nor does it have any mystery to it.
Also lots of the suggested replacement phrasings are gratuitously awkward, and, of course, it ignores characterization both in Xykon's case, and in the case of the timid creature in the darkness.
Sky_Schemer
2023-11-24, 08:54 PM
So, are you saying your guess is that its approximately equal between Slaad and Snorlax, or are you primarily on Team Slaad and only secondarily on Team Snorlax?
Put me on Team Slaad. And if it ends up being a Snorlax, I'll just say "I knew it all along!" and pretend I didn't get it wrong.
Sky_Schemer
2023-11-24, 09:01 PM
So at the very least, I really wish those that dislike the protean would come up with either a new objection, or cease retreading old ground.
Well, I think the best argument against the Uvuudaum is the one already listed: it has a confusion aura with a radius of 30'. That is not a small distance, confusion is not a small effect, and a DC 47 Will save is not a small barrier. Honestly, if we are using RAW as a guide, this should have stricken the Uvuudaum from the list long ago.
Crusher
2023-11-24, 09:13 PM
Put me on Team Slaad. And if it ends up being a Snorlax, I'll just say "I knew it all along!" and pretend I didn't get it wrong.
Perfectly reasonable! I approve.
Errorname
2023-11-25, 12:01 AM
My stance on the eyes thing is that assuming MITD is a Protean, they would probably remain consistent even after the unveiling, just so there's an anchor point in the design.
Bam, now Start of Darkness features a Protean.
Damn, and all it cost was any ambiguity and sense of mystery what-so-ever, as well as several lines that don't actually contradict with the monster being a protean
The point here is it's a good line.
Still, probably best to source your admittedly extremely sick lines from people who didn't get completely dunked on after delivering them.
Peelee
2023-11-25, 07:32 AM
Still, probably best to source your admittedly extremely sick lines from people who didn't get completely dunked on after delivering them.
Imean, i would argue that like was 100% correct. :smallamused:
Tubercular Ox
2023-11-25, 10:51 AM
Damn, and all it cost was any ambiguity and sense of mystery what-so-ever
Rich comes down pretty hard on mystery and ambiguity:
"if he was something else then it wouldn’t fit everything that is going to happen and has already happened. It’s not a guessing game I added to the strip just for extracurricular fun and games, it’s part of the story. There’s no answer that’s better than what he is because everything written for the last 15 years has been written with that answer in mind."
You're supposed to feel like Rich was barely hiding it after the reveal, just like Julia-is-Eugene. And if the Monster in the Dark were a Protean, you wouldn't need my rewrites to feel like Start of Darkness is barely hiding it.
as well as several lines that don't actually contradict with the monster being a protean
Not contradicting isn't the goal, fitting everything that is going to happen and has already happened is the goal.
Having an undying hatred for all nonshapechanging beings doesn't fit.
Being surprised it speaks when it has its own language, as well as speaking and understanding all other languages, doesn't fit.
Having a smell doesn't fit.
Working itself up to be in the light doesn't fit.
The Goblins not recoiling in abject horror doesn't fit.
Devouring things whole doesn't fit.
These are not clues that point to the Protean. They are embarrassing counterclues that have to be excused by giving the Protean a Therblewurkersaurus template that explains them.
I agree that the story without a Protean in it has more going for it than my story, but my story is the better Protean story because everything is written to fit a Protean, which was Rich's goal when writing his story.
Peelee
2023-11-25, 03:11 PM
And if the Monster in the Dark were a Protean, you wouldn't need my rewrites to feel like Start of Darkness is barely hiding it.
If the Monster in the Dark is a Protean, then I, for one, don't need your rewrites at all.
OvisCaedo
2023-11-25, 05:21 PM
I'm not really sold on the Protean completely, or anything else really. But if it were impossible to ever guess that it could be a Protean from how it's been presented in comic... there wouldn't be a bunch of people guessing Protean from what's been presented in the comic.
I also don't think "barely hiding it" is an automatic writing requirement from "I have always had the creature in mind." "Nothing else fits better" does not mean "I carefully curated every aspect of any dialogue ever spoken by, to, or about it to be direct hints about the answer".
halfeye
2023-11-26, 01:22 AM
I also don't think "barely hiding it" is an automatic writing requirement from "I have always had the creature in mind." "Nothing else fits better" does not mean "I carefully curated every aspect of any dialogue ever spoken by, to, or about it to be direct hints about the answer".
For me, the point isn't that every bit of dialog should be a direct hint to the MitD, it's that what's drawn or written shouldn't be hints away from what the MitD is, and at least the eyes not moving around would be such a hint away from the MitD if the MitD were a protean.
Crusher
2023-11-26, 02:10 AM
For me, the point isn't that every bit of dialog should be a direct hint to the MitD, it's that what's drawn or written shouldn't be hints away from what the MitD is, and at least the eyes not moving around would be such a hint away from the MitD if the MitD were a protean.
Ok, fair enough. So, what's a monster that MitD has been written in such a way that there are no hints against it being that species?
That we're on thread #19 of this should suggest really, really strongly that there's no such monster, and I say this as someone who's not particularly a fan of the Protean as a candidate. You're basically setting an impossible standard (within the confines of the guessing game) and kind of insulting the Giant's storytelling.
You're frustrated over people asking "why a creature that is constant shapeshifting incarnate never seem to do that"? I find that baffling, myself.
Really? You find it baffling? I thought my reasoning was pretty clear. You even quoted it yourself:
"If the MITD is a Protean, why hasn't Rich shown us the most defining and distinctive characteristic of that species, which he is trying to keep a secret?"
How is that baffling? As I've said before, would you be baffled that people thought it was a Glabrezu even though MitD never explicitly said "Wow, I don't know how I made Mr. Stiffly and his elf friend disappear, but apparently I can only do it once a month!"?
I do not think Rich is going to give us clues that are a dead giveaway, and shapeshifting is so relatively limited-- particularly in the "constantly boiling form" of the Protean, and particularly among creatures in the FBS list-- that any such hint would have been a slam-dunk giveaway.
Or another way to phrase the question from the other side would be: What species has a characteristic as distinctive as a Protean's "constantly boiling form" that MitD has shown? I mean, if he hasn't done anything that distinctive for a species, then he can't be that species, right? I think this line of reasoning will lead you to rule out every single monster species.
If the Monster in the Dark is a Protean, then I, for one, don't need your rewrites at all.
Same.
I'm not really sold on the Protean completely, or anything else really. But if it were impossible to ever guess that it could be a Protean from how it's been presented in comic... there wouldn't be a bunch of people guessing Protean from what's been presented in the comic.
I also don't think "barely hiding it" is an automatic writing requirement from "I have always had the creature in mind." "Nothing else fits better" does not mean "I carefully curated every aspect of any dialogue ever spoken by, to, or about it to be direct hints about the answer".
Yes and yes.
I don't think every last line of dialogue or every single thing MitD does is supposed to be a hint to his species. He has a personality, after all. And a role in the story. Sometimes what he does or says is just based on that.
For me, the point isn't that every bit of dialog should be a direct hint to the MitD, it's that what's drawn or written shouldn't be hints away from what the MitD is, and at least the eyes not moving around would be such a hint away from the MitD if the MitD were a protean.
I think it's important that Rich said, and I'm quoting directly with my own emphasis, "Note that nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what it is, either."
He could have said "everything before strip #100 falls under standard behavior for what it is." He could have said "nothing before strip #100 is unusual or unexpected for what it is." He didn't, and I think he chose that phrase deliberately.
A Protean in magical darkness only having two eyes consistently visible does not contradict the truth of the species. It may not be what many of you expect to happen, but there's a difference between "unexpected from a species" and "contradicts the truth of the species."
I guess what I find frustrating about the discussion is that the Protean seems to be held to standards other creatures aren't.
I don't think, for example, Ox's list of questions that he thinks need to be answered by the species is going to all be answered by the species, but if he does, I'd like to see him apply a standard that rigorous to every monster in the FBS or that's been suggested, not just the Protean.
And I don't think "Why hasn't MitD done something that would make his species a dead giveaway?" is a fair question, because if it was a dead giveaway, we'd all know what it is by now-- and if you apply the standard of "hasn't shown the most distinctive or obvious identifying characteristic of its species" to the MitD, then literally no species meets that criteria.
Because at the end of the day, if you have a high enough standard, you can disqualify every possible species. But we know there is an answer. So if you have a standard that no species can meet, then ipso facto your standard is too high.
(EDITED to fix a typo and also to acknowledge that Crusher essentially made the same point one post above about setting impossible standards.)
hroþila
2023-11-26, 05:11 AM
I guess what I find frustrating about the discussion is that the Protean seems to be held to standards other creatures aren't.
It is by far the most common guess, it's only natural that it gets the most scrutiny. And the lack of apparent shapeshifting is one of the strongest arguments against it. I think it simply comes with the territory
I understand that the recurrent, circular arguments can get tiresome and frustrating if they aren't bringing anything new to the table, but we can all choose not to engage for the nth time
It is by far the most common guess, it's only natural that it gets the most scrutiny. And the lack of apparent shapeshifting is one of the strongest arguments against it. I think it simply comes with the territory
I understand that the recurrent, circular arguments can get tiresome and frustrating if they aren't bringing anything new to the table, but we can all choose not to engage for the nth time
Whether or not it's "natural" (and let's skip over debating what that word means or implies for now), it's not good process. Good process entails analyzing all of the possible (or reasonably possible, or "fits the big scenes" possible) candidates by the same standards and trying to come up with the best answer, or researching to find another answer if you aren't satisfied with the candidates already presented here.
If you're holding only one species to an impossible standard and trying to pick it apart because it's the current vote leader, you aren't actually trying to find the answer. If your standards are so high that applying them to each species mean none of them pass, then you will not find the answer.
There is an answer.
I feel like that needs to be emphasized, because at least a couple of people doing the nitpicking have said they haven't found a satisfactory answer, or have openly admitted they're just nitpicking and have no intention of trying to find the answer.
But there is an answer.
Somewhere between the bar set by the FBS and the bar set so high that no creature can pass it, is a bar that one creature will pass. That's the answer.
If you haven't found one that satisfies that for you, then better to be looking for one than to rehash arguments. If your bar is set so that no creature can pass it, then it is set too high. Certainly, it is possible to come up with a reason to dismiss every single proposal, but at the end of the day, if you do that, you will reach the conclusion that MitD cannot be anything, that there is no answer. And that is the one conclusion we know for certain is wrong.
Because, again, there is an answer.
I don't think, for example, Ox's list of questions that he thinks need to be answered by the species is going to all be answered by the species, but if he does, I'd like to see him apply a standard that rigorous to every monster in the FBS or that's been suggested, not just the Protean.
I'd just like to see him apply it to the Hunting Horror, for my part.
hroþila
2023-11-26, 07:02 AM
Good process entails analyzing all of the possible (or reasonably possible, or "fits the big scenes" possible) candidates by the same standards and trying to come up with the best answer, or researching to find another answer if you aren't satisfied with the candidates already presented here.
I disagree, I think it's perfectly legitimate and actually good process to point out the flaws in any candidate (and particularly the leading one) even if you don't have a better candidate yourself.
I feel like that needs to be emphasized, because at least a couple of people doing the nitpicking have said they haven't found a satisfactory answer, or have openly admitted they're just nitpicking and have no intention of trying to find the answer.
I think this is part of the problem and the disconnect here - the apparent lack of shapeshifting is not a small, unimportant detail, it is a major flaw in the theory for anyone who is not convinced by the explanations proposed for it. Presenting it as 'nitpicking' can rub people the wrong way.
Errorname
2023-11-26, 07:47 AM
I feel like that needs to be emphasized, because at least a couple of people doing the nitpicking have said they haven't found a satisfactory answer, or have openly admitted they're just nitpicking and have no intention of trying to find the answer.
As someone who has raised doubts about the Protean but lacks a better answer, the big reason I haven't gone spelunking is because I do not feel like I have the familiarity to actually have any hope of finding anything. Most of my exposure to TTRPGs is secondhand, through CRPGs or actual plays or webcomics like OOTS, and much of that exposure is heavily based around more modern entries that post-date the point where the MITD's identity would have been decided. I just do not have the familiarity with the material and communities of the period that I can go looking for obscure and esoteric monsters and expect to find anything that the more knowledgeable TTRPG players in the forum haven't already found, I wouldn't even know where to start.
I regret that I can't contribute much more than doubts here, but while the Protean is the strongest candidate it's flaws keep the theory from being completely airtight for me, there's still something that feels off.
Tubercular Ox
2023-11-26, 09:35 AM
I also don't think "barely hiding it" is an automatic writing requirement from "I have always had the creature in mind." "Nothing else fits better" does not mean "I carefully curated every aspect of any dialogue ever spoken by, to, or about it to be direct hints about the answer".
Sure, but now we're negotiating. The Big Game Hunters Scene introduces five red herrings to create one clue that Proteans have their own language they would prefer to be speaking:
(I’ve removed Jenkins’ lines because they don’t add much.)
Yes, looks like we bagged it. Good work, Jenkins.
Excuse me, could you let me out of the box? There doesn’t seem to be a latch on the inside.
(Not a Protean, because a Protean would’ve tried Dimension Door, Ethereal Jaunt, or Knock, and then complained about one of those not working instead of complaining about a latch.)
My gods, is it talking?
(Not a Protean. All Proteans speak)
In Common, no less!
(Fits a Protean, it has its own language to speak.)
Um, yeah, I can speak, so about this box…
Well this will surely fetch a fine price.
Okay, I know you can hear me, so I’d really like to discuss the box situation.
I tell you, Jenkins, I never expected to see one of these in this part of the world.
(Not a Protean, which is Climate/Terrain: Any)
Wait, I know! Could you let me out of the box, please? I always get told that I forget to say, “please,” and, “thank you.”
(Not a Protean, which has +53 Diplomacy and shouldn’t need reminders to say please and thank you, unless it’s intentionally slighting someone.)
And “Sorry about the smell.”
(Not a Protean, since Proteans don't have anything about smell on their stat block.)
And then, if you trust me, there are one or two more lines that don’t fit a +53 Diplomacy and nothing else that hurts or helps a Protean case.
This isn't an important scene. The Monster in the Dark's story could've started with the Circus Scene, with a one line Noodle Incident to explain how it got there. So the bulk of this scene is to dissuade the audience that it could be a Protean.
This is cute when mystery and ambiguity are popular, but it's a nightmare after the reveal. New readers are going to binge the online comic, find out it's a Protean, and then read Start of Darkness. They're going to hit this scene and wonder if they bought the right book. They'll come to the thread and ask what's up. The thread will tell them that mystery was more important than story, but the mystery they came in the door with is why Rich decided to change the Monster in the Dark just for Start of Darkness.
I don't think Rich would write the Monster in the Dark so ambiguously that it would continue to generate arguments after the reveal.
Grey_Wolf_c
2023-11-26, 09:40 AM
As someone who has raised doubts about the Protean but lacks a better answer, the big reason I haven't gone spelunking is because I do not feel like I have the familiarity to actually have any hope of finding anything. Most of my exposure to TTRPGs is secondhand, through CRPGs or actual plays or webcomics like OOTS, and much of that exposure is heavily based around more modern entries that post-date the point where the MITD's identity would have been decided. I just do not have the familiarity with the material and communities of the period that I can go looking for obscure and esoteric monsters and expect to find anything that the more knowledgeable TTRPG players in the forum haven't already found, I wouldn't even know where to start.
I regret that I can't contribute much more than doubts here, but while the Protean is the strongest candidate it's flaws keep the theory from being completely airtight for me, there's still something that feels off.
Sure, but the crucial difference is, as I have pointed out, that you don't come here and post essentially a "I won't buy the protean because I feel he should have different number of eyes in every panel", like it was some kind of novel thought no-one had ever posted to this thread in it's 19 thread history. No-one will pillory you for not liking any of the FBS candidates; but the core intention of this thread is to either refine the suggestions we have or add new ones. We can't all be Crusher and his indefatigable ability to find new candidates, and that's fine.
I think this is part of the problem and the disconnect here - the apparent lack of shapeshifting is not a small, unimportant detail, it is a major flaw in the theory for anyone who is not convinced by the explanations proposed for it. Presenting it as 'nitpicking' can rub people the wrong way.
Big or small, AFAIAC the disconnect here is the expectation that anyone bringing up any FBS creature should be reasonably familiar with the FBS entry and if wanting to discuss it, should bring something new to the table - i.e. not something already in the OP unless they have either a fix, or a novel objection. If they really don't have anything new to say, they are free to say "Put me down as 'Not protean' because shapeshifting" to Crusher and that'll be that. But restarting a discussion we have had a dozen times, when they have absolutely nothing new to add, is actually less than nitpicking; for the purposes of advancing our understanding of MitD, it's just noise.
Grey Wolf
Peelee
2023-11-26, 10:08 AM
I don't think Rich would write the Monster in the Dark so ambiguously that it would continue to generate arguments after the reveal.
Then I assume you object to every creature suggested so far, including yours?
Errorname
2023-11-26, 10:12 AM
Excuse me, could you let me out of the box? There doesn’t seem to be a latch on the inside.
(Not a Protean, because a Protean would’ve tried Dimension Door, Ethereal Jaunt, or Knock, and then complained about one of those not working instead of complaining about a latch.)
The monster quite explicitly doesn't fully understand what he is or what he's capable of.
Wait, I know! Could you let me out of the box, please? I always get told that I forget to say, “please,” and, “thank you.”
(Not a Protean, which has +53 Diplomacy and shouldn’t need reminders to say please and thank you, unless it’s intentionally slighting someone.)
The monster is his own individual with his own personality which is clearly unconventional for his ilk.
That said, a +53 Diplomacy does match up pretty cleanly with his "Trenchant Political Analysis" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html), and it'd be neat if the joke clue was an actual clue.
This is cute when mystery and ambiguity are popular, but it's a nightmare after the reveal. New readers are going to binge the online comic, find out it's a Protean, and then read Start of Darkness. They're going to hit this scene and wonder if they bought the right book. They'll come to the thread and ask what's up. The thread will tell them that mystery was more important than story, but the mystery they came in the door with is why Rich decided to change the Monster in the Dark just for Start of Darkness.
I suspect a more common reaction would be to not question it. The thing about a Protean that's shared with all the candidates is that it's not a super well known monster, to a casual reader who hasn't been pouring over the 'what is the MITD' theory game they probably will not notice or care. Especially when you aren't scouring the book for hints and are just enjoying the story.
DreadedHaggard
2023-11-26, 10:17 AM
Long time reader and lurker, made this account after getting lost in the rabbit hole of this thread :smallbiggrin:. Here to add my vote for the Protean.
Tubercular Ox
2023-11-26, 10:43 AM
Then I assume you object to every creature suggested so far, including yours?
We're still negotiating where the bar is.
The monster quite explicitly doesn't fully understand what he is or what he's capable of.
The monster is his own individual with his own personality which is clearly unconventional for his ilk.
Yes, if you apply the Therblewurkersaurus template, the modified Protean fits every scene. But it's not printed anywhere, so I'm not sure why new readers will jump to that conclusion instead of, "Rich changed his mind."
That said, a +53 Diplomacy does match up pretty cleanly with his "Trenchant Political Analysis" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html), and it'd be neat if the joke clue was an actual clue.
Yes! I love this.
I suspect a more common reaction would be to not question it. The thing about a Protean that's shared with all the candidates is that it's not a super well known monster, to a casual reader who hasn't been pouring over the 'what is the MITD' theory game they probably will not notice or care. Especially when you aren't scouring the book for hints and are just enjoying the story.
Sure, but the uncommon reaction is still going to flush people into this thread. Look at the people who keep coming back with the same arguments after 7-8 years of trying. They're uncommon, and all of their complaints are of the form, "If Rich wanted a Protean, why didn't he do X instead?"
None of their complaints are going to be cleared by the reveal, it's just going to be revealed that he did want it but still didn't do X. Except every once in a while there's going to be a new guy who isn't going to accept, "We went over this before you arrived," as an excuse.
Grey_Wolf_c
2023-11-26, 10:47 AM
Long time reader and lurker, made this account after getting lost in the rabbit hole of this thread :smallbiggrin:.
My condolences/apologies/appreciation. All three, really. Same to all other lurkers.
Here to add my vote for the Protean.
One tiny nitpick: it's a guess entry, not a vote. This ain't some kind of grand experiment where MitD depends on who we like. Which would be a terrible way to write a story, anyway, as countless examples have demonstrated. While I won't claim it's the worst possible writing advice ever (I'm sure I could come up with even worse, but why would I want to?), "listened to what the fans want" is commonly associated with some of the worst disasters in storytelling.
But you knew that, and I knew that, and thus this is just a nitpick.
GW
Errorname
2023-11-26, 12:18 PM
Yes, if you apply the Therblewurkersaurus template, the modified Protean fits every scene. But it's not printed anywhere, so I'm not sure why new readers will jump to that conclusion instead of, "Rich changed his mind."
It is not unreasonable to assume that Order of the Stick, a story which is at least partially about unpacking the problems with the traditional D&D approach to monsters, is willing to give a monster a personality that doesn't perfectly match what's described in it's statbook.
Sure, but the uncommon reaction is still going to flush people into this thread. Look at the people who keep coming back with the same arguments after 7-8 years of trying. They're uncommon, and all of their complaints are of the form, "If Rich wanted a Protean, why didn't he do X instead?". None of their complaints are going to be cleared by the reveal, it's just going to be revealed that he did want it but still didn't do X.
Would people still argue with the same intensity once the matter is settled? I kind of doubt it honestly. While you're right that the Protean isn't a strong match for the hunter scene, it's also not strongly contradicted by it. It would be strange to see a creature that looked like the Protean speak at all, let alone common, it'd be an unexpected sight, it probably doesn't smell great, none of it is unreasonable to say about a Protean despite not being the cleanest match for the description.
You're latching onto the imperfect match because you're arguing against the Protean, but I doubt post-reveal readers will be examining the scene as closely. The focus will likely be on the monster as a character and his place in the story, rather than trying to identify as many diagnostic traits as possible.
Peelee
2023-11-26, 12:46 PM
We're still negotiating where the bar is.
It sounds like the bar is "if other monsters aren't perfect fits then they're bad but if my monster isn't a perfect fit then it's not a problem".
Or maybe "if this specific monster isn't a perfect fit then it's bad but if any other monster isn't a perfect fit then it's not a problem".
Either way it's a bad argument. All our nothing buddy.
My condolences/apologies/appreciation. All three, really. Same to all other lurkers.
I vote for MitD XX: Lurkers, I'm So Sorry.
Emberlily
2023-11-26, 12:50 PM
I think an important thing to remember in general is that Order of the Stick is not about the identity of the monster's species. it's not even remotely about it. it's not about the monster, either. he's an important character, sure, but he's firmly secondary. and even within his own narrative, what he is, physically is not what his story is about; he's a full character with a role and a personality and an arc. it's just one part of it, but even tho it's by far one that leave the most room for discussion and "games" of the guessing/deduction/debate kind (see, again, 19 threads!), the guessing game aspect is subordinate to all of the ways the monster is important to the story.
(this, btw, is what sold me personally on the protean; it's the only one I've so far seen a way where What It Is can be satisfyingly tied into its character/narrative aspects without relying on esoteric D&D monster trivia, which the comic has long since moved away from relying on for more than small jokes. but I don't expect anyone here has fully predicted the monster's story so it could also very well be something different and I get ppl not being sold on the protean themselves. but when it happens I sincerely doubt it won't be something that ties things in without relying on obscure minutia, whatever the answer turns out to be)
if nothing else, remember that the comic will one day end and What The Monster Is will be open for anyone to know even before they start reading the comic for the first time. and the monster is almost certainly being written with the intent to be just as interesting even with the guessing game mystery element entirely gone
brian 333
2023-11-26, 12:57 PM
It is not unreasonable to assume that Order of the Stick, a story which is at least partially about unpacking the problems with the traditional D&D approach to monsters, is willing to give a monster a personality that doesn't perfectly match what's described in it's statbook.
Would people still argue with the same intensity once the matter is settled? I kind of doubt it honestly. While you're right that the Protean isn't a strong match for the hunter scene, it's also not strongly contradicted by it. It would be strange to see a creature that looked like the Protean speak at all, let alone common, it'd be an unexpected sight, it probably doesn't smell great, none of it is unreasonable to say about a Protean despite not being the cleanest match for the description.
You're latching onto the imperfect match because you're arguing against the Protean, but I doubt post-reveal readers will be examining the scene as closely. The focus will likely be on the monster as a character and his place in the story, rather than trying to identify as many diagnostic traits as possible.
I think post-reveal readers will comb through every page of the comic and every forum post having anything remotely to do with MitD, both to say, "I told you so," and to prove that the author did whatever their pet theory claims he did. There will be another ten years of MitD threads after the reveal discussing everything from "Why you were wrong," to "This is how it shoulda been done!"
Grey_Wolf_c
2023-11-26, 01:15 PM
I think post-reveal readers will comb through every page of the comic and every forum post having anything remotely to do with MitD, both to say, "I told you so," and to prove that the author did whatever their pet theory claims he did. There will be another ten years of MitD threads after the reveal discussing everything from "Why you were wrong," to "This is how it shoulda been done!"
While I do not doubt that there will be people who will decide to discuss the reveal (especially the all-important "how did he do X", because I long ago gave up the hope that the revealed creature will have the holy trinity of strength, wish and earthquake), I don't think it'll take that long to hash out. It'll happen, of course, just as the Miko, Bandana and Hilgya debates happened (although MitD, lacking a crucial characteristic shared by those three, probably won't be as bad).
But I do want to point out that "forum members" are not interchangeable with "readers". Most readers don't feel the need to be in the forum, don't care about rules minutia, and probably will greet the reveal of some species of monster they can't name, and never cared enough to try and name, with a "huh, ok" and will keep enjoying the story. "Readers who care what MitD's species is" is a minority within a minority, and "readers who care enough about MitD to try to piece together the clues" are a minority within that.
Grey Wolf
halfeye
2023-11-26, 01:16 PM
Ok, fair enough. So, what's a monster that MitD has been written in such a way that there are no hints against it being that species?
A Boojum: as a snark it's invisible when it's not applying it's will to be visible, which fits the scene in SoD at the circus where the MitD is being fed in low light and isn't visible at all. As a Boojum it's also dangerous and presumably strong. There are undoubtedly a thousand other monsters from the history of literature which are now forgotten that fit, but being forgotten is a big downside.
That we're on thread #19 of this should suggest really, really strongly that there's no such monster, and I say this as someone who's not particularly a fan of the Protean as a candidate. You're basically setting an impossible standard (within the confines of the guessing game) and kind of insulting the Giant's storytelling.
If the Giant has made hints against the species that the MitD actually is, that would be a demerit to his storytelling. Which is my main reason for believing that the MitD is not a protean.
I think it's important that Rich said, and I'm quoting directly with my own emphasis, "Note that nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what it is, either."
He could have said "everything before strip #100 falls under standard behavior for what it is." He could have said "nothing before strip #100 is unusual or unexpected for what it is." He didn't, and I think he chose that phrase deliberately.
A Protean in magical darkness only having two eyes consistently visible does not contradict the truth of the species. It may not be what many of you expect to happen, but there's a difference between "unexpected from a species" and "contradicts the truth of the species."
I disagree that a protean only having two statically placed eyes does not contradict the truth of it's being a protean. It is not the case that the MitD only had static eyes before comic #100, he's had them in every comic since then too, which is a pretty big hint that the MitD is not the particular type of protean whose flesh continually boiis.
Grey_Wolf_c
2023-11-26, 01:41 PM
A Boojum: as a snark it's invisible when it's not applying it's will to be visible, which fits the scene in SoD at the circus where the MitD is being fed in low light and isn't visible at all. As a Boojum it's also dangerous and presumably strong. There are undoubtedly a thousand other monsters from the history of literature which are now forgotten that fit, but being forgotten is a big downside.
1) An invisible creature does not fit the circus scene, where the public clearly can see MitD.
b) "a snark it's invisible when it's not applying it's will to be visible" is headcanon.
iii) "being forgotten" is not a downside. Nothing requires MitD's species to be well known.
I disagree that a protean only having two statically placed eyes does not contradict the truth of it's being a protean. It is not the case that the MitD only had static eyes before comic #100, he's had them in every comic since then too, which is a pretty big hint that the MitD is not the particular type of protean whose flesh continually boiis.
So you, and several others, have said before. But beyond your feelings about it, the reality is that no, a protean is not required to constantly shift its eyes. It has in fact a mechanism by which it can keep them steady. Static eyes does not contradict the protean, no matter how much you don't like it. And like I have said, it is frankly boring to have to hear it over and over and over like this was some grand new revelation instead of an objection that has been noted for literally over a decade.
GW
InvisibleBison
2023-11-26, 01:44 PM
A Boojum: as a snark it's invisible when it's not applying it's will to be visible, which fits the scene in SoD at the circus where the MitD is being fed in low light and isn't visible at all. As a Boojum it's also dangerous and presumably strong. There are undoubtedly a thousand other monsters from the history of literature which are now forgotten that fit, but being forgotten is a big downside.
I suppose you could argue that "clear proof MitD is not a boojum" is not the same thing as "a hint against MitD being a boojum", but I don't think doing so strengthens the case for the boojum.
I disagree that a protean only having two statically placed eyes does not contradict the truth of it's being a protean.
Well, then, you're just wrong.
Tubercular Ox
2023-11-26, 01:58 PM
It sounds like the bar is "if other monsters aren't perfect fits then they're bad but if my monster isn't a perfect fit then it's not a problem".
Or maybe "if this specific monster isn't a perfect fit then it's bad but if any other monster isn't a perfect fit then it's not a problem".
Either way it's a bad argument. All our nothing buddy.
What about, "Any monster that can fit the story with no more than five red herrings in any one scene is at least as good as the Protean" ?
Peelee
2023-11-26, 03:05 PM
What about, "Any monster that can fit the story with no more than five red herrings in any one scene is at least as good as the Protean" ?
I'm not arguing for or against any creature. I've tried to stop that some time ago since I don't feel it's productive for me. I have my guess listed, other people have theirs, we'll see when we see. So I don't care about what is "as good as the Protean", which is already a poor metric since it's value varies person to person.
I was sayign that your assertion of "if people argue about it afterwards then it's bad writing" is a remarkably bad argument to make since it can apply just as easily to every proposed monster since there are zero perfect fits and everything has issues.
I think there is no logical problem with: "Any monster that can fit the story with no more than five red herrings in any one scene in the eyes of Tubercular Ox is at least as good as the Protean in the eyes of Tubercular Ox."
One who does not share the premise will obviously object to being forcefed the conclusion.
OvisCaedo
2023-11-26, 04:21 PM
"Being a person" is not in any way equivalent to "being a creature with a bunch of templates for its abilities". One of the major themes of the comic is that even monsters are individuals. You're not going to look at ANY statblock to declare resolutely what someone's personality is.
Literally any creature the MitD could be would have been easily capable of breaking out of the cage. He is enormously strong even without any specific ability. He chose not to, because of who he is as a person. And, in general, he is explicitly unaware of the extent of his own capabilities. Which also does a lot to explain "Well if he's X why didn't he use Y" for the majority of monsters.
GreyTraveller
2023-11-26, 04:56 PM
I don't think Rich would write the Monster in the Dark so ambiguously that it would continue to generate arguments after the reveal.I have every confidence that even after the reveal, this thread will continue on, with people discussing which pieces of evidence from the comic really make it seem like it should have been something else, continuing to suggest possibilities that are surely a better fit than whatever Rich show us he's been thinking all this time, and probably even why it was bad writing on Rich's part to have scene X play out as it did. (Plus plenty of gloating that they had it right, of course, assuming that at least some folks here have made the right guess). While the conversation may eventually fall off over time, I guarantee that the initial response will not be for everyone to unanimously agree that it was obvious in retrospect, and quickly come to accept the answer.
Tubercular Ox
2023-11-26, 05:14 PM
I love how we went from "The Protean is the best we're going to get" to "Standards are bad and you shouldn't judge the Protean on them" as soon as I mentioned the standard there would have to be for the Protean to stay in the running.
I have every confidence that even after the reveal, this thread will continue on, with people discussing which pieces of evidence from the comic really make it seem like it should have been something else, continuing to suggest possibilities that are surely a better fit than whatever Rich show us he's been thinking all this time, and probably even why it was bad writing on Rich's part to have scene X play out as it did. (Plus plenty of gloating that they had it right, of course, assuming that at least some folks here have made the right guess). While the conversation may eventually fall off over time, I guarantee that the initial response will not be for everyone to unanimously agree that it was obvious in retrospect, and quickly come to accept the answer.
Maybe, but are all candidates flawed equally? I mean, no offense to Peelee's suggestion, but Wile E. Coyote would have a very different post-reveal environment from a Protean.
halfeye
2023-11-26, 05:28 PM
1) An invisible creature does not fit the circus scene, where the public clearly can see MitD.
b) "a snark it's invisible when it's not applying it's will to be visible" is headcanon.
Clearly, in the circus performance scene the MitD is applying his will to be seen. He says being seen by so many is tiring, which suggests it is putting in an effort to be seen.
iii) "being forgotten" is not a downside. Nothing requires MitD's species to be well known.
Your second sentence is technically correct, however equally nothing requires it to be obscure, and I suggest that being known to readers of the comic would be an advantage.
... it is frankly boring to have to hear it over and over and over like this was some grand new revelation instead of an objection that has been noted for literally over a decade.
GW
It has been noted and ignored for that long yes, it's the ignoration with the implication that it has been forgotten which causes it to be repromulgated.
Well, then, you're just wrong.
In your and some other's opinions, yes. We shall eventually see.
Gift Jeraff
2023-11-26, 05:28 PM
I think it's been discussed several times in the past, but how would people feel if this whole time the MITD's face has been purely symbolic/artistic/for the reader's sake and not its literal face? i.e. the reveal happens and when the MITD steps out of the darkness its true face is nothing like the 2 yellow eyes we've grown accustomed to. Whether that means no eyes, 1 eye, 3 or more eyes, red eyes, constant shapechanging, compound eyes, eyes that are way bigger than what we saw in the darkness, eyestalks that are placed completely inconsistently with what we've seen, or anything else.
Personally, I would have little issue with this. We have already accepted various instances of "artistic liberties that aren't what are 'really' occurring in-universe," such as Durkon's memories being in third-person (even though we know OOTS characters perceive the world in first person (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0843.html)) or Nale's stubble making it obvious to the reader which twin is which. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0397.html) Heck, I imagine the MITD's eyebrows (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html) are another example that we pretty much all accept as only being drawn to communicate the MITD's emotions.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's also worth noting that the MITD's eyes have never even been referenced in dialogue. The closest we've come to the MITD's eyes being acknowledged by the writing is when they glow for the escape scene, but even that could've been a visual way of telling the audience "Yes, this was 100% the MITD's doing. Don't bother theorizing about how V and O-Chul were possibly saved by a third party."
I imagine some would feel that Rich cheated if this turns out the case, and I can't really fault people for feeling that way even if I myself would accept it.
Peelee
2023-11-26, 05:51 PM
I love how we went from "The Protean is the best we're going to get" to "Standards are bad and you shouldn't judge the Protean on them" as soon as I mentioned the standard there would have to be for the Protean to stay in the running.
A.)I don't recall anyone ever saying "The Protean is the best we're going to get". And, at the very least, I've never said that, and I'm the one knocking your "standards" suggestion.
2.) I have never objected to applying "standards" the the Protean. I have objected to your desire to hold one "standard" for the Protean and not hold any other creature to that same "standard". If you disagree, then again, i assume you object to every other creature suggested, including your own?
Maybe, but are all candidates flawed equally? I mean, no offense to Peelee's suggestion, but Wile E. Coyote would have a very different post-reveal environment from a Protean.
To amend one small bit of what i said above, obviously Wile E. Coyote is the best we're going to get. :smalltongue:
Tubercular Ox
2023-11-26, 06:31 PM
2.) I have never objected to applying "standards" the the Protean. I have objected to your desire to hold one "standard" for the Protean and not hold any other creature to that same "standard". If you disagree, then again, i assume you object to every other creature suggested, including your own?
I don't know what standard the Protean holds itself to, just that, whatever it is, it excludes fitting every scene. So is the standard that a monster is allowed one scene it doesn't have to fit?
Oh, wait, two scenes:
You sure are one ugly sumbitch, aren’t you?
(Fits a Protean, although I find this line odd since we’ve already established that it’s strangely beautiful.)
What do you do that really terrifies people?
Let’s see… I eat a lot?
(Not a Protean -- there’s no mention of eating on its statblock.)
Ok, then, when the heroes show up, you eat them!
And if Redcloak ever betrays me, you will devour him whole and spit out the gold amulet he wears.
(Not a Protean. Proteans have 39 SR and a +32 Will save, there is a 1% chance Xykon could land that spell on the first try, and I don’t know why Rich would let him do that when even a single failed casting, blamed on freaking spell resistance, would do so much for the Protean’s believability)
(And still not a Protean because Proteans don’t devour things whole.)
To amend one small bit of what i said above, obviously Wile E. Coyote is the best we're going to get. :smalltongue:
I have to admit, there would probably be an impressive silence after it was revealed.
Emberlily
2023-11-26, 06:40 PM
I feel like this could be an important distinction to make
"I don’t know why Rich would let him do that when even a single failed casting, blamed on freaking spell resistance, would do so much for the Protean’s believability)"
I know a good reason why: because it would severely bog down the narrative pacing deep in the heart of the emotional climax of that entire book (a book which, if I recall correctly the author's statements, was until recently his favorite one because of how it was just a solid story). telling a good story as a whole always comes ahead of scoring points for the monster guessing game, and the author has openly said he doesn't sweat the odds of a D&D roll so long as something is possible and tells a good story
Tubercular Ox
2023-11-26, 06:44 PM
I feel like this could be an important distinction to make
"I don’t know why Rich would let him do that when even a single failed casting, blamed on freaking spell resistance, would do so much for the Protean’s believability)"
I know a good reason why: because it would severely bog down the narrative pacing deep in the heart of the emotional climax of that entire book (a book which, if I recall correctly the author's statements, was until recently his favorite one because of how it was just a solid story). telling a good story as a whole always comes ahead of scoring points for the monster guessing game, and the author has openly said he doesn't sweat the odds of a D&D roll so long as something is possible and tells a good story
That's fair! But it means a 1 in 100 chance working out is a part of the standard for any monster that wants to compete with the Protean.
Grey_Wolf_c
2023-11-26, 07:04 PM
It has been noted and ignored for that long yes, it's the ignoration with the implication that it has been forgotten which causes it to be repromulgated.
It has been in the OP since thread three, last edited 2011-01-16. It is not "ignored". But that, it seems, according to you, is "ignoration", whatever the hell that means. So by all means, do tell, what precisely do you suggest that this thread should do beyond noting it clearly in the initial post in the entry for protean as one of its cons? What would it take for you to consider it sufficiently not "ignoration", halfeye? Should I force everyone in this thread to quote that entry before they are allowed to say anything else? Force everyone to add it to their signatures? Quiz participants randomly to make sure they have read the damn entry?
Hagunemnon (Protean)
Pros:
Great strength (53)
teleportation (plane shift) abilities
Access to Planar Travel through convenient partial shapeshift into Umbral Blot, which includes greater teleport
adequate size
his shapeshifting sounds disturbing, but has 34 CHA.
Has no languages, thus being surprising it can talk.
Its psionic ability to detect thoughts would explain his knowledge of the ritual, probably having heard RC's thoughts on the subject.
Cons:
Plane shift doesn't fit well with the escape as shown (see 1b: The Escape), and while greater teleport fits slightly better, it requires a timely shapeshift into the exact appropriate creature.
it's powers are psionic-based (see 2b Psionics).
It's constant shapeshifting has not been reflected in a change of MitD (mouth and eyes stay roughly the same)
(emphasis mine)
These, btw, are not rhetorical questions. What, precisely, should it be done that is not already being done, halfeye?
Because to the best of my knowledge I am already doing everything that needs to be doing. And you are just annoyed that we don't consider it as crucial a con as you want us to, but since you have nothing other than your firm belief, that no-one else is required to share, all you have left is boring me with constant repetition that I do... what, exactly?
ETA: erased on reflection of Keltest's comment (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25915212) below
A Boojum: as a snark it's invisible when it's not applying it's will to be visible, which fits the scene in SoD at the circus
Clearly, in the circus performance scene the MitD is applying his will to be seen.
Preserved without comment.
Grey Wolf
Peelee
2023-11-26, 07:07 PM
I don't know what standard the Protean holds itself to
It doesn't. It's a block of text. It can't hold itself to any standards. You can, and you cam choose whatever standard you want. But if you want others to agree with you then you have to prepare for the possibility people may not and may criticize your standard.
That's fair! But it means a 1 in 100 chance working out is a part of the standard for any monster that wants to compete with the Protean.
Dude, there's no competition here. It's not a game of "whatever most people think will determine what it is". The only prize is bragging rights. Hell, I'd be slightly happier if it turns out to be Wile E. Coyote because I'd be the only one to get to say "BOOYAH!"
This is also a reason why I've tried to stop advocating or arguing against creatures. Because it does not matter at all to me what other people guess. It only matters to me what I guess. Others may feel differently, others may want to justify their guess as much as possible or convince as many people as they can. But that doesn't make it a competition. There's no competing here except in your own mind. If you have it be a competition foe yourself, then cool, you do you, but don't expect others to be obligated to answer your own questions about how to make other monsters compete. Even if others decide to help, it might not be what you want.
Errorname
2023-11-26, 07:14 PM
I love how we went from "The Protean is the best we're going to get" to "Standards are bad and you shouldn't judge the Protean on them" as soon as I mentioned the standard there would have to be for the Protean to stay in the running.
I think I've been pretty clear that while I think the Protean is the best we've got, the case for it is far from airtight and it's entirely possible we haven't found the actual answer yet. So I don't think "this is the leading candidate" and "these are some minor bits where it doesn't fit neatly"
GreyTraveller
2023-11-26, 07:16 PM
Maybe, but are all candidates flawed equally? I mean, no offense to Peelee's suggestion, but Wile E. Coyote would have a very different post-reveal environment from a Protean.Well, of course not, but there are many views on which candidates have more flaws, or worse flaws, or whatever. That's why there are so many different guesses in the first place. I think we're pretty safe that it's not Wile E. Coyote, but I'd say that Snorlax is still a reasonable possibility, for example. Regardless, I really do think that we'll continue to see people saying that another monster would have been a better fit, even after Rich tells us what he thinks the best fit is.
Keltest
2023-11-26, 07:29 PM
Preserved without comment.
Grey Wolf
I believe you are confusing Halfeye talking about a different scene at the circus with The Circus Scene that we use as a Big Scene for the FBS category. Unless I am radically misremembering, the MITD does not get fed while on stage.
In particular, you flat out cut out the second half of the sentence in the first quote which very specifically says what Halfeye is talking about.
Gurgeh
2023-11-26, 07:42 PM
...I'd say that Snorlax is still a reasonable possibility, for example.
Okay, I'm morbidly curious: how could this possibly work unless the reveal is a one-page gag that gets the MitD being permanently disappeared by Mr Jones and Mr Rodriguez?
EDIT: please disregard, thread rules clearly don't allow this.
Grey_Wolf_c
2023-11-26, 07:43 PM
I believe you are confusing Halfeye talking about a different scene at the circus with The Circus Scene that we use as a Big Scene for the FBS category. Unless I am radically misremembering, the MITD does not get fed while on stage.
Ah, then it's the old argument that because the darkness "bends inwards" near the floorboards in that particular scene, it must mean MitD is invisible inside the shadows (rather than, say, "he's leaning forward so the feet are still firmly in the shadows " or the most likely "it's not a clue"). Yeah, I should have remembered that halfeye still bring that one up every so often. Fair enough, striken through.
GW
Keltest
2023-11-26, 07:44 PM
Okay, I'm morbidly curious: how could this possibly work unless the reveal is a one-page gag that gets the MitD being permanently disappeared by Mr Jones and Mr Rodriguez?
I believe that falls under the "not our problem to figure out" category by way of not making the mods do more work.
Specifically, the thread rules, section 4A, which has too many nested quotes for me to want to quote tonight.
Grey_Wolf_c
2023-11-26, 07:46 PM
Okay, I'm morbidly curious: how could this possibly work unless the reveal is a one-page gag that gets the MitD being permanently disappeared by Mr Jones and Mr Rodriguez?
... You have answered yourself? It'd be a way he wouldn't dominate the narrative post-reveal, if nothing else.
(and yeah, please please PLEASE don't talk about the legal issues here)
GW
Peelee
2023-11-26, 07:49 PM
Okay, I'm morbidly curious: how could this possibly work unless the reveal is a one-page gag that gets the MitD being permanently disappeared by Mr Jones and Mr Rodriguez?
Arguably pretty easily (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0789.html).
not making the mods do more work.
Also this. I like being having less work for our kind and benevolent mods. :smallwink:
Keltest
2023-11-26, 07:56 PM
Arguably pretty easily (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0789.html).
Also this. I like being having less work for our kind and benevolent mods. :smallwink:
On the other hand, it would be funny to see the Roland Revenge counter in your sig go up...
Grey_Wolf_c
2023-11-26, 07:57 PM
I have every confidence that even after the reveal, this thread will continue on.
A thread about MitD, and whether or not he truly fits the clues, will undoubtedly exist following the reveal. It might even highjack this thread. But this thread, that exists to collect & compile the collective conclusions (bonus alliteration!) will end the moment the reveal happens, pretty much by definition. Assuming I'm still around, my plan is to find out who was the first to propose the species (assuming someone did), and congratulate them, despite the fact that, most likely, they left the forums ages ago. Really looking forward to it, when all's said and done.
GW
Crusher
2023-11-26, 08:42 PM
Long time reader and lurker, made this account after getting lost in the rabbit hole of this thread :smallbiggrin:. Here to add my vote for the Protean.
So noted!
I vote for MitD XX: Lurkers, I'm So Sorry.
I'm a fan!
Gurgeh
2023-11-26, 09:07 PM
I believe that falls under the "not our problem to figure out" category by way of not making the mods do more work.
Specifically, the thread rules, section 4A, which has too many nested quotes for me to want to quote tonight.
Apologies to all for disregarding this - I can absolutely understand why the rule is there.
Neponde
2023-11-26, 09:27 PM
I vote for MitD XX: Lurkers, I'm So Sorry.
I know it's far too early to officially vote, but this is great.
(As a longtime lurker, and twice a year poster.)
b_jonas
2023-11-26, 11:58 PM
But this thread, that exists to collect & compile the collective conclusions (bonus alliteration!) will end the moment the reveal happens, pretty much by definition. Are you suggesting that the one section of the first posts that I'm maintaining will outlive everything you've done for this thread? :-P
Grey_Wolf_c
2023-11-27, 12:02 AM
Are you suggesting that the one section of the first posts that I'm maintaining will outlive everything you've done for this thread? :-P
I certainly hope so; it'll certainly make it easier to revisit all his scenes once we know his species to see how he fit the clues.
GW
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