Spores Druid Gish Build Help

[Psyren]

I know, I know, the subclass is all over the place...but I can't help trying to think of ways to make it work.
I'd like to lean into it as a druid gish as much as possible, and I'm looking for suggestions. With that in mind, my wishlist is:



Multiclassing and feats (including 1st-level feats and UA content) are allowed
Capable of at least 3 attacks total (to take the most advantage of Symbiotic Entity's bonus damage). Doesn't have to be this many every round, but bonus points if that's manageable.
Melee-focused (same reason)
Ideas on ways to protect the temp HP (so SE lasts as long as possible.) I'm thinking high AC + Shield and/or Absorb Elements, for example. Assume metal armor is allowed.)
(less important) creative or effective ways to use halo and the zombie.


So far I'm thinking of Gloomstalker 5/Spores 2+ - there's flavor synergy (both subclasses are dark-side-of-nature-themed) and mechanical synergy from both the spellcasting progression and Gloomstalker getting another attack early on. The temp HP start weak but should scale quickly afterward, especially if I have ways of protecting them so they last longer without needing to be refreshed.

I would pick up the Shield spell with Magic Initiate or Githzerai or something. But I don't know if there are better options. Help?

[RogueJK]

Goliath's racial damage reduction would likely be more useful than Shield. (Especially just 1x/day Shield from Magic Initiate.) And your single digit Temp HP won't last long in melee at Level 7, and will continue to be insufficient even with additional Druid levels.

This is what makes Spores Druid so difficult to optimize... You want multiple melee attacks but can't get it without multiclassing, while at the same time you want as many Druid levels as possible in order to keep your paltry Temp HP scaling as best as it can (understanding that even on a single classed Spores Druid it still won't be able to keep up). Meanwhile, you want to get into melee in order to be able to leverage your Spores damage, but being in melee means that your Temp HP will run out even sooner. And activating your Spores takes an Action, so that's an entire turn that your melee-focused character isn't contributing damage, putting you even further behind in output. Maing it even worse, oftentimes your minimal Temp HP will be exhausted by damage in the round between the turn you activate your spores and your next turn when you could actually start to make attacks to benefit from it, gaining you zero benefit from your wasted Action other than a little bit of Temp HP damage mitigation!

We've seen over the course of multiple threads that trying to optimize Spores Druid in its published form is a losing proposition. It's just too much of a mess, and one of the worst designed subclasses in all of (official) 5E. Great flavor, but the mechanics are a total dumpster fire.

But since we're trying again...

Goliath Drunken Master Monk/Spores Druid is about the best I could come up with. You've got up to 3x-4x attacks per turn, and also have increased speed and a Disengage Flurry effect so you can dart in and out of melee range, which combined with your racial damage halving at least gives you a chance to make it more than a round or so with that Temp HP. (Any other type of Monk with the Mobile feat would also accomplish the same result.)

Or alternately, Longtooth Shifter Beast Barbarian/Spores Druid would get you up to 3x-4x attacks per turn, along with a bit of additional damage resistance, at the cost of locking out your Druid spellcasting while Raging. Plus you could activate your Spores and then use your BA to Shift and make a bite attack, all in the same turn, so you at least have a little damage output in Turn 1.

But neither one is great. Either way you're so far behind in Druid levels that your tiny amount of Temp HP is still likely to run out after a mere hit or two. It's a lot of investment for minimal added damage at best, or a wasted turn at worst.


In the end, at best, I might consider a Longtooth Shifter Barbarian 1/Spores Druid 2 or a Goliath Monk 1/Spores Druid 2 for a Level 3 one-shot. But beyond that, it's just not a good option for a PC build.



If you want a more viable option for a grungy mushroom Druid multiclass build, you'd be better off with something like a Swarmkeeper Ranger 3 or 4/Swamp or Underdark Land Druid X multiclass, flavoring your Swarm as mushroom spores, and reflavoring the visual presentation of a bunch of your Druid spells to have a death/decay theme. Pick up the Strixhaven Winterbloom background, Planescape Evil Plane background, or MotM Kobold race to grab WIS-based Chill Touch, and play a typical ranged caster Druid with Chill Touch + Gathered Swarm as your go-to resourceless combat option.

Stars Druid could also work well with this, especially if your DM will allow you to swap radiant for necrotic damage on Archer Form, giving you two ranged necrotic attacks per turn with additional damage or forced movement on one of them from your Swarm.

Or the new Critical Role Blight Druid would also work with this theme, if you reflavor your Blighted Saplings as Blighted Mushrooms.

[RogueJK]

Kinda off track, but here are my quick and dirty thoughts on remaking Spores into a viable Druid Gish subclass:

Level 2:
Keep Chill Touch. Useful and flavorful.
Modify Halo of Spores. Flavorful, but minimal damage in exchange for your Reaction. Consider making it something like Warding Flare to impose Disadvantage instead, usable PB/day. Or perhaps Half Cover until your next turn, usable PB/day.
Modify Symbiotic Entity to remove it being tied to Temp HP running out, and allow it to apply to any attack roll, not just melee weapon attacks. Make it a BA to activate and a flat 1 or 10 minute time duration. Limit the added damage to 1 hit per turn, but scale its damage dice at 10 and/or consider adding a save for moderate rider condition like Frightened/Poisoned/Blinded/Restrained at the higher level. Reduce the Temp HP to d10+Druid Level. (We're basically drawing inspiration from the mechanics of Undead Warlock's Form of Dread, Swarmkeeper Ranger's Gathered Swarm, and Stars Druid's Starry Form here.)
Considering adding martial weapon proficiency, or perhaps proficiency with your choice of 1 martial weapon.

Level 3-9:
Circle Spells are mostly fine. Swap Gentle Repose for something more fitting like Blur or Mirror Image. Swap Contagion for Danse Macabre. Consider swapping Animate Dead for Summon Undead, though that's mostly a personal preference.

Level 6:
Ditch the 1 HP zombies. Flavorful, but useless.
Gain Extra Attack, ala Bladesinger or Swords/Valor Bard.

Level 10:
Modify Spreading Spores. Buff up the damage and/or add effects, like Difficult Terrain + Heavily Obscured (that the Druid can see through).
Consider adding in ability to bypass Necrotic resistance.

Level 14.
Keep Fungal Body.

[Dr.Samurai]

How often do you think you will be fighting in darkness or dim lighting? May seem like a silly question, but the Gloomstalker has a great benefit in darkness.

If you go goblin, you could hide in the dark (or in Dim Light w/ Skulker feat) as a bonus action. Unless they perceive you, they can't target you. They can ready an action to attack when you attack them, but then they can't benefit from Multiattack.

Not sure if that's the style you're going for, but it's an idea I have for a goblin barbarian boogey-man. Go Path of Giants, hide, and emerge as a large sized monstrosity :smallcool:.

[Psyren]

Goliath's racial damage reduction would likely be more useful than Shield. (Especially just 1x/day Shield from Magic Initiate.) And your single digit Temp HP won't last long in melee at Level 7, and will continue to be insufficient even with additional Druid levels.

This is what makes Spores Druid so difficult to optimize... You want multiple melee attacks but can't get it without multiclassing, while at the same time you want as many Druid levels as possible in order to keep your paltry Temp HP scaling as best as it can (understanding that even on a single classed Spores Druid it still won't be able to keep up). Meanwhile, you want to get into melee in order to be able to leverage your Spores damage, but being in melee means that your Temp HP will run out even sooner. And activating your Spores takes an Action, so that's an entire turn that your melee-focused character isn't contributing damage, putting you even further behind in output. Making it even worse, oftentimes your minimal Temp HP will be exhausted by damage in the round between the turn you activate your spores and your next turn when you could actually start to make attacks to benefit from it, gaining you zero benefit from your wasted Action other than a little bit of Temp HP damage mitigation!

You've accurately summed up my issues/frustrations with this subclass.

But I do appreciate you trying anyway, and it's borne fruit, because I never actually thought of a Drunken Master skirmisher! I could even see a thematic tie there if the spores are the reason for the monk's addled movements. (Can you tell I'm a Vorthos?)

If I go that route, do you think a naturally speedy race work better than Goliath? Say, Tabaxi or Wood Elf?

[RogueJK]

If I go that route, do you think a naturally speedy race work better than Goliath? Say, Tabaxi or Wood Elf?

Probably not. You've already got enough movement to dart away from many melee foes, but can also lose your Temp HP to ranged attacks and spells. Extra movement won't help against those, but Stone's Endurance could.

[solidork]

Probably not. You've already got enough movement to dart away from many melee foes, but can also lose your Temp HP to ranged attacks and spells. Extra movement won't help against those, but Stone's Endurance could.

Firbolg wouldn't be bad either - activate your form and then turn invisible as a bonus action.

[elyktsorb]

As someone who has spent many an hour pondering over the viability of spore druid as a frontliner to maximize your symbiotic entity melee damage, there are 2 ways I see as making it work. And that's by either avoiding damage, or maximizing your temp hp.

I've played Druid/Barbarians, and I've played Druid/Monks. And for my money if you go the Barbarian way, you need to have Bear Totem. Being able to effectively double your temp hp by having resistance to everything but Psychic damage is absolutely needed, I've tried other barbarian subclasses, such as Beast, and it really ruins you if your hit by non BPS damage, which will only be more and more likely the higher you get in level.

I also wouldn't recommend going beyond Barb 5 just for the extra attack, maybe 6. Race wise, I'd probably limit your race choices to anything that will give you a bonus action attack. Tho taking a single level of monk, and then 5 in barb wouldn't be horrible either if you want to open your race to things that do other things for you. Longtooth Shifter is my go to. Goliath would be good if your getting a bonus action attack from something other than race.

Now the Monk way is more about avoiding damage altogether, and for my money, Astral Self is the best at accomplishing this, having a way to get Reach on your attacks means you can easily avoid OA's and back off after striking so that the little temp hp you have doesn't get damaged. To that effect this is more about hitting fast as well, you want to get as many hits in as you can before you lose the temp hp, because having to spend an action to get it up again mid-fight usually isn't worth it unless it's a long fight. You can still build this where you get more temp hp, by stopping at like, monk 5 or 6. The Monk way also opens up your racial choice to be anything that helps, Goliath being a good choice, something with flight could be useful too, as you could cast fog cloud in the air, and then retreat into the fog cloud after attacking things to try and mitigate their ability to return fire.

There's also the option of just going purely damage, only take 2 levels of druid, open the combat with symbiotic entity up, and then just flurry on something immediately. At level 2druid/5monk that's going to be an additional 4d6 necrotic on your hits. And then if you lose the temp hp it's not a big deal, the main point was to get that extra damage in right away, and druid 2 has a lot of utility as a dip.

Typically you're going to want to activate symbiotic entity before a fight, it lasts 10 minutes so it's not too difficult to turn it on before a fight, won't always get the chance but that's not something I usually worry about.




Modify Symbiotic Entity to remove it being tied to Temp HP running out, and allow it to apply to any attack roll, not just melee weapon attacks. Make it a BA to activate and a flat 1 or 10 minute time duration. Limit the added damage to 1 hit per turn,

Level 6:
Ditch the 1 HP zombies. Flavorful, but useless.
Gain Extra Attack, ala Bladesinger or Swords/Valor Bard.


Personally I wouldn't want Spore Druid to change and be like every single other class where you can just deal more damage on 1 attack per turn (literally every other class does that, let spore druid have the damage per hit) I would remove the temp hp running out stipulation, both because, A, it's clunky, and B, assuming you're playing a lvl 20 druid, that stipulation literally doesn't matter since you have infinite wildshape.

Also allowing it to apply to any attack would just make any and all melee builds significantly less viable than just using ranged spells or weapons. Not to mention it would make taking a 2 level spores druid dip very lucrative as it's so much easier to maintain 8 temp hp if you're already at a far range shooting things.

I am all for removing the terrible zombie ability, though straight extra attack would make this way too easy of a class to just, grab a single level dip in monk and go from there. I also feel that if it got extra attack on its own they would be inclined to force that 'only works on 1 attack per turn' thing you want, which I personally do not want.

[Sorinth]

I think there's probably something there for a melee skirmisher type build. If you can constantly back out of melee range you can avoid some damage and/or trigger extra damage of your own plus potentially some allies OAs. It's probably best to grab PAM and use that reaction attack over Halo of Spores which is kind of annoying flavour wise. You will also need something to get you out of melee range, Swarmkeeper Ranger or Open Hand Monk might be the best if you want martial 5 for extra attack, though you can meet the 3 attacks requirement fairly regularly staying straight Druid thanks to PAM in which case Crusher or Mobile can be used to skirmish.

I'll also note if you are the target of Warding Bond that would be a big help in maintaining your temp HP.

[Psyren]

Probably not. You've already got enough movement to dart away from many melee foes, but can also lose your Temp HP to ranged attacks and spells. Extra movement won't help against those, but Stone's Endurance could.

It could if there's cover though. I could see myself running all the way from out behind say, a tree or wall, land my four hits, free disengage, and get back. Or even being able to stay out of range of short-range attacks, like hand crossbows!


Firbolg wouldn't be bad either - activate your form and then turn invisible as a bonus action.

Oooh - now there's a use for 1-round BA invisibility. And the race fits thematically too. Thanks!


As someone who has spent many an hour pondering over the viability of spore druid as a frontliner to maximize your symbiotic entity melee damage, there are 2 ways I see as making it work. And that's by either avoiding damage, or maximizing your temp hp.

I've played Druid/Barbarians, and I've played Druid/Monks. And for my money if you go the Barbarian way, you need to have Bear Totem. Being able to effectively double your temp hp by having resistance to everything but Psychic damage is absolutely needed, I've tried other barbarian subclasses, such as Beast, and it really ruins you if your hit by non BPS damage, which will only be more and more likely the higher you get in level.

I also wouldn't recommend going beyond Barb 5 just for the extra attack, maybe 6. Race wise, I'd probably limit your race choices to anything that will give you a bonus action attack. Tho taking a single level of monk, and then 5 in barb wouldn't be horrible either if you want to open your race to things that do other things for you. Longtooth Shifter is my go to. Goliath would be good if your getting a bonus action attack from something other than race.

Now the Monk way is more about avoiding damage altogether, and for my money, Astral Self is the best at accomplishing this, having a way to get Reach on your attacks means you can easily avoid OA's and back off after striking so that the little temp hp you have doesn't get damaged. To that effect this is more about hitting fast as well, you want to get as many hits in as you can before you lose the temp hp, because having to spend an action to get it up again mid-fight usually isn't worth it unless it's a long fight. You can still build this where you get more temp hp, by stopping at like, monk 5 or 6. The Monk way also opens up your racial choice to be anything that helps, Goliath being a good choice, something with flight could be useful too, as you could cast fog cloud in the air, and then retreat into the fog cloud after attacking things to try and mitigate their ability to return fire.

There's also the option of just going purely damage, only take 2 levels of druid, open the combat with symbiotic entity up, and then just flurry on something immediately. At level 2druid/5monk that's going to be an additional 4d6 necrotic on your hits. And then if you lose the temp hp it's not a big deal, the main point was to get that extra damage in right away, and druid 2 has a lot of utility as a dip.

Typically you're going to want to activate symbiotic entity before a fight, it lasts 10 minutes so it's not too difficult to turn it on before a fight, won't always get the chance but that's not something I usually worry about.

I was originally shying away from Barbarian because I had already seen d4's Beast-Spores build, but I confess I hadn't given PAM+TotemBear minus RA a close enough look, so I'll revisit that.

Regarding the all-offense suggestion... I like the visual, but I don't think +4d6, even at 7, is going to be enough of an alpha strike to justify the ability only lasting one round, especially if I don't have the prep time to avoid needing a buff/activation round, so I'm going to keep trying for something sustainable. I'm going to file this away under the hit-and-run skirmisher bucket for now.


Personally I wouldn't want Spore Druid to change and be like every single other class where you can just deal more damage on 1 attack per turn (literally every other class does that, let spore druid have the damage per hit) I would remove the temp hp running out stipulation, both because, A, it's clunky, and B, assuming you're playing a lvl 20 druid, that stipulation literally doesn't matter since you have infinite wildshape.

My issue with it is that, because it doesn't scale, the only way to scale it is with multiple attacks (which druid doesn't get.)

I think having it only apply 1/round could work if it (a) applied to melee spell attacks (letting it work on a Primal Savagery or NewChillTouch build, for example) and (b) had some small scaling of its own, say 1d6 -> 1d8 -> 1d10 -> 1d12 at various tiers.

[elyktsorb]

My issue with it is that, because it doesn't scale, the only way to scale it is with multiple attacks (which druid doesn't get.)

I think having it only apply 1/round could work if it (a) applied to melee spell attacks (letting it work on a Primal Savagery or NewChillTouch build, for example) and (b) had some small scaling of its own, say 1d6 -> 1d8 -> 1d10 -> 1d12 at various tiers.

Technically druid does get multiattack in some animal forms which you can benefit from if you turn into an animal and then use symbiotic entity, not that I would go with that but still.

It would absolutely work like that, but I just think it would be boring and I would have far less interest in it as a concept if that's how it worked.

[Rukelnikov]

I know, I know, the subclass is all over the place...but I can't help trying to think of ways to make it work.
I'd like to lean into it as a druid gish as much as possible, and I'm looking for suggestions. With that in mind, my wishlist is:



Multiclassing and feats (including 1st-level feats and UA content) are allowed
Capable of at least 3 attacks total (to take the most advantage of Symbiotic Entity's bonus damage). Doesn't have to be this many every round, but bonus points if that's manageable.
Melee-focused (same reason)
Ideas on ways to protect the temp HP (so SE lasts as long as possible.) I'm thinking high AC + Shield and/or Absorb Elements, for example. Assume metal armor is allowed.)
(less important) creative or effective ways to use halo and the zombie.


So far I'm thinking of Gloomstalker 5/Spores 2+ - there's flavor synergy (both subclasses are dark-side-of-nature-themed) and mechanical synergy from both the spellcasting progression and Gloomstalker getting another attack early on. The temp HP start weak but should scale quickly afterward, especially if I have ways of protecting them so they last longer without needing to be refreshed.

I would pick up the Shield spell with Magic Initiate or Githzerai or something. But I don't know if there are better options. Help?

When you say UA content, do you mean 5.5? Also, do you wanna be primarily a spore druid or is it okay to just dip 2 level and try to maximize the spore added damage?

[Psyren]

Technically druid does get multiattack in some animal forms which you can benefit from if you turn into an animal and then use symbiotic entity, not that I would go with that but still.

Yeah... but since I can't be a moon druid, those forms fall off very early and very sharply. +1d6 on every attack when all my attacks are nonmagical and capped at CR1 forms isn't great past Tier 1. I'd also need to burn both wild shape uses for a single fight, one to transform and one to activate Symbiotic Entity, both costing an action (though the wild shape can more easily be done in advance.)


When you say UA content, do you mean 5.5?

Yep! For example, the UA version of Magic Initiate that's available to everyone at level 1, so I could both grab the Shield spell right off the bat and use my druid spell slots to cast it, would be allowed. That way I wouldn't be forced to multiclass or use Githzerai for it. That kind of thing.


Also, do you wanna be primarily a spore druid or is it okay to just dip 2 level and try to maximize the spore added damage?

I'm 100% okay with either approach. I'm leaning towards as many spore druid levels as possible since the temp HP are dependent on druid levels and SE ends early if I run out, but if there's a build that can more easily maintain the damage even with minimal THP, I'd love to read that.


It would absolutely work like that, but I just think it would be boring and I would have far less interest in it as a concept if that's how it worked.

It's tangential to this thread but I'm compelled to ask why? A melee spell-attack druid could be a fun niche, especially with the new Shillelagh or True Strike (or both!)

[Rukelnikov]

Yep! For example, the UA version of Magic Initiate that's available to everyone at level 1, so I could both grab the Shield spell right off the bat and use my druid spell slots to cast it, would be allowed. That way I wouldn't be forced to multiclass or use Githzerai for it. That kind of thing.

I'm 100% okay with either approach. I'm leaning towards as many spore druid levels as possible since the temp HP are dependent on druid levels and SE ends early if I run out, but if there's a build that can more easily maintain the damage even with minimal THP, I'd love to read that.

Yeah, I think I'd go about protecting the temp HP more from an avoidance angle than from a tanking one.

Build is gonna depend on the fighting style you go for.

The one that protects your spores the most is probably going Glaive Echo Knight with PAM and Sentinel. Use the bonus action to position your echo, attack, move to safety, unleash incarnation even allows you extra attacks for the turns in which you have spores up, and AS means you can turn it on and attack on the same turn if necessary (just taking 2 attack actions is probably gonna be more useful, but the option is there), or if you already have it up make a lot of attacks.

The thing is, I wouldn't really know where to go from there, you don't have a good concentration, and you don't have many slots either, if you keep going druid, what's your next big thing? Guardian of nature? That good but far off, and even farther to be usable regularly, keep going EK? Then you are just an EK with spores tacked on for extra 1d6 on attacks and still no good concentration. If you could somehow get Shield of Faith that would pair decently well with Spores, same duration,1st level slot, helps protect your temp hp, maybe Pally 2 and then more druid (but getting that 13 cha could be a problem with point buy), or cleric 1 and then whatever else.

[J-H]

I prefer single class builds.

RPGBot Handbook on the topic (https://rpgbot.net/dnd5/characters/classes/druid/subclasses/circle-of-spores/).

If you want to melee attack, Shillelagh plus Polearm Master nets you two attacks per round with a quarterstaff. You won't keep up with a full plate wearer, but you won't be too far off.

If going the Shillelagh route I might be tempted by Elven Accuracy if you have someone handing out advantage. Otherwise, I'd go for halfling or tortle (slightly better AC, but you can't upgrade your armor later). Tortle lets you drop Dex in favor of Str, which opens up a few more weapon options, but isn't really a big deal.

Enjoy the fact that you have a lot of spellcasting options, PLUS reasonable melee options.

[Rukelnikov]

I prefer single class builds.

RPGBot Handbook on the topic (https://rpgbot.net/dnd5/characters/classes/druid/subclasses/circle-of-spores/).

If you want to melee attack, Shillelagh plus Polearm Master nets you two attacks per round with a quarterstaff. You won't keep up with a full plate wearer, but you won't be too far off.

If going the Shillelagh route I might be tempted by Elven Accuracy if you have someone handing out advantage. Otherwise, I'd go for halfling or tortle (slightly better AC, but you can't upgrade your armor later). Tortle lets you drop Dex in favor of Str, which opens up a few more weapon options, but isn't really a big deal.

Enjoy the fact that you have a lot of spellcasting options, PLUS reasonable melee options.

A Druid can get advantage with Guardian of Nature, 4th level spell concentration 1 minute, gives adv on all Dex or Wis based attacks

[sambojin]

War 1/ Spores X? Sure, it might only be a max of 5 bonus attacks a day, but that'll make those Spore turns feel a bit better, or give you a bit of burst for when you need it. Martial weapons for bigger die, heavy armour for better armour (ask your circle for some non-metallic armour), and you still get your full spell level and plenty of "free" lvl1 preps.

The main advantage being, that it's only 1lvl of dip. Oh, and those bonus attacks also work in WS, which alongside spores could get fairly meaty at early levels (never underestimate little wildshape). Even something like a warhorse becomes pretty good with 2x 2d6+4+d6poison attacks, when they work even if a charge doesn't stick. Accessible by lvl5 with this build, and with 35HP for the encounter (19 horsie, 16 spore temp) it's not a terrible use of two wildshape charges. You can also run around with a greatsword or a halberd (PAM maybe?) for other sorts of reliable attacks.

I'll second Firbolg as a good choice, simply because you can never have too much magic. There's plenty of other races that would work though.

1 encounter, choose your fighting style. Next encounter, magic it up. Your resources should be enough to round out the day, and by War1/Spore5, you won't really miss the druid level too much.

[elyktsorb]

It's tangential to this thread but I'm compelled to ask why? A melee spell-attack druid could be a fun niche, especially with the new Shillelagh or True Strike (or both!)

When you say new I assume your referring to the 5.5 stuff or whatever that's called these days. And I have negative interest in that whole thing so far.

As much as it could be a fun niche, I personally just don't see it, even if it was, I don't think it would be fun for me.

[Psyren]

When you say new I assume your referring to the 5.5 stuff or whatever that's called these days. And I have negative interest in that whole thing so far.

Nah, the only thing actually from 5.5 there was Chill Touch being a touch spell now. All the rest was a pure hypothetical on my part.

(Personally - I just don't get the level of searing hate for the new that would keep someone from even reading a PDF, but to each their own...)


War 1/ Spores X? Sure, it might only be a max of 5 bonus attacks a day, but that'll make those Spore turns feel a bit better, or give you a bit of burst for when you need it. Martial weapons for bigger die, heavy armour for better armour (ask your circle for some non-metallic armour), and you still get your full spell level and plenty of "free" lvl1 preps.

The main advantage being, that it's only 1lvl of dip. Oh, and those bonus attacks also work in WS, which alongside spores could get fairly meaty at early levels (never underestimate little wildshape).

Ehh... if I was just good with just Action Attack + BA Attack that's easy enough without dipping at all; PAM + Shillelagh gets me there on a Druid 20, and that's unlimited BA attacks all day long rather than 5/LR. I'm shooting for more than that though.

I definitely don't want a wildshape build - a big point of using Spores in the first place is to be a druid gish that doesn't give up their ability to cast when it's needed. Worse, activating both would burn both my wildshape uses in a single fight, though it could at least be done in a single round.



The one that protects your spores the most is probably going Glaive Echo Knight with PAM and Sentinel.
...
The thing is, I wouldn't really know where to go from there, you don't have a good concentration, and you don't have many slots either, if you keep going druid, what's your next big thing? Guardian of nature? That good but far off, and even farther to be usable regularly, keep going EK? Then you are just an EK with spores tacked on for extra 1d6 on attacks and still no good concentration. If you could somehow get Shield of Faith that would pair decently well with Spores, same duration,1st level slot, helps protect your temp hp, maybe Pally 2 and then more druid (but getting that 13 cha could be a problem with point buy), or cleric 1 and then whatever else.

I... didn't even think of Echo Knight :smallredface: I could even fluff it as some kind of fungal simulacrum or something. And you're right that Unleash Incarnation would get me even more attacks, and do so without eating my BA like War would.

EK 6 would get me 3 attacks (Normal, PAM/TWF, EA) plus a fourth a few times per day, and keep my SE safe while I build up my druid levels for more THP. That's a pretty sweet alternative to monk I'd say.

With that said - of the options that don't advance my casting, I think Drunken Master is still the frontrunner, that skirmish style seems like it could be a lot of fun and I'm loving the flavor. But I still think there's something I'm missing in Ranger. (5 Ki per short rest isn't much, but if I spend it all on spore-enhanced flurry...)

[Rukelnikov]

I... didn't even think of Echo Knight :smallredface: I could even fluff it as some kind of fungal simulacrum or something. And you're right that Unleash Incarnation would get me even more attacks, and do so without eating my BA like War would.

EK 6 would get me 3 attacks (Normal, PAM/TWF, EA) plus a fourth a few times per day, and keep my SE safe while I build up my druid levels for more THP. That's a pretty sweet alternative to monk I'd say.

With that said - of the options that don't advance my casting, I think Drunken Master is still the frontrunner, that skirmish style seems like it could be a lot of fun and I'm loving the flavor. But I still think there's something I'm missing in Ranger. (5 Ki per short rest isn't much, but if I spend it all on spore-enhanced flurry...)

Skirmishing is the way to go, making yourself hard to attack will be the best way to keep the buff going.

[sambojin]

Another thing with War, is you can dip further. War 3 gets you Spiritual Weapon, that with your druid levels, will essentially be an all-day BA attack, and one that even scales slightly.

Not saying it's great, just saying it's there (and I like small dips. Five levels doesn't seem small)

[RogueJK]

Spiritual Weapon wouldn't benefit from the added Spores damage.

[Damon_Tor]

If you have an ally willing to trade warding bond for a sack full of good berries, that's probably the best way to stretch out your thp.

[sambojin]

Three levels of rogue might be good for a gishy build. BA Dash, so you're always doing something (even on spore-up turns), a bit of expertise, a fun subclass (they're all pretty good) and a slightly larger attack (still only one, but it's bigger).

You could go Firbolg Arcane Trickster 3/ Spores X, for plenty of cantrips (SCAGtrips for some combat versatility?), and just bounce around the battlefield stabbing, sporing and dashing and/or being annoying with mage hand. Between that, sr Firbolg stuff, and a flying Summon'd Beast, combat should be pretty fun, even if it's not exactly DPStastic. Plenty of out of combat utility as well. It won't really get going until level 5/6, but whether you level AT or Spores first, you'll probably have a good time on the way there.

Just an idea anyway...

[elyktsorb]

The one that protects your spores the most is probably going Glaive Echo Knight with PAM and Sentinel. Use the bonus action to position your echo, attack, move to safety, unleash incarnation even allows you extra attacks for the turns in which you have spores up, and AS means you can turn it on and attack on the same turn if necessary (just taking 2 attack actions is probably gonna be more useful, but the option is there), or if you already have it up make a lot of attacks.


I've never really considered Echo Knight since I feel like it just adds another layer of problems, especially if you don't have much temp hp. For starters, you have to manifest it within 15ft and it has a limit of 30ft of movement, and it won't last outside 30ft away from you. So if you spawn it in, and move it as far as it can go, you're still open to being hit by ranged attacks fairly easily.

I question using PAM or Sentinel with it either, as the echo can't attack with bonus actions, and it can only make opportunity attacks on creatures that exit its reach specifically, so PAM flat out doesn't work with the Echo. Nor would the last two points of Sentinel work either, and I'm not even sure the first one would as well, because even though you're the one making the opportunity attack, you aren't the one hitting the creature, your Echo is.

So you're only limited to attacks you can make through the attack action and if you happen to be targeted instead of your echo, since there's no actual point to attacking the echo directly, there's nothing protecting your temp hp.

[Rukelnikov]

I've never really considered Echo Knight since I feel like it just adds another layer of problems, especially if you don't have much temp hp. For starters, you have to manifest it within 15ft and it has a limit of 30ft of movement, and it won't last outside 30ft away from you. So if you spawn it in, and move it as far as it can go, you're still open to being hit by ranged attacks fairly easily.

I question using PAM or Sentinel with it either, as the echo can't attack with bonus actions, and it can only make opportunity attacks on creatures that exit its reach specifically, so PAM flat out doesn't work with the Echo. Nor would the last two points of Sentinel work either, and I'm not even sure the first one would as well, because even though you're the one making the opportunity attack, you aren't the one hitting the creature, your Echo is.

So you're only limited to attacks you can make through the attack action and if you happen to be targeted instead of your echo, since there's no actual point to attacking the echo directly, there's nothing protecting your temp hp.

Well, if you are on a plain open space then the Echo won't help you from tanged attacks yeah, but many times you can go behind cover, around the corner, etc.

And the idea of Sentinel and PAM is primarily for those that close in on you. It doesn't help against ranged attacks as you point out, but it should help against melee.

[Psyren]

Three levels of rogue might be good for a gishy build. BA Dash, so you're always doing something (even on spore-up turns), a bit of expertise, a fun subclass (they're all pretty good) and a slightly larger attack (still only one, but it's bigger)

My issue with splashing rogue is it delays both sides of the equation (multiple attacks and casting/temp HP.) Cunning Action disengage would be helpful though; Goblin is on my short list for that reason, but being able to get in and out while preserving my BA to attack with would be even better.


Well, if you are on a plain open space then the Echo won't help you from tanged attacks yeah, but many times you can go behind cover, around the corner, etc.

And the idea of Sentinel and PAM is primarily for those that close in on you. It doesn't help against ranged attacks as you point out, but it should help against melee.

On that note, Warding Wind seems like it would be useful with this build regardless of what I go with on the martial side!

[Sorinth]

My issue with splashing rogue is it delays both sides of the equation (multiple attacks and casting/temp HP.) Cunning Action disengage would be helpful though; Goblin is on my short list for that reason, but being able to get in and out while preserving my BA to attack with would be even better.


On that note, Warding Wind seems like it would be useful with this build regardless of what I go with on the martial side!

If your going with Warding Wind as the go to spell then wielding a Glaive with Slasher + PAM could allow for some interesting kiting. It can often behave like the PAM + Sentinel combo but has a bit more versatility at the cost of not being quite as reliable at lockdown. If you go Swarmkeeper 5 / Spore Druid X then you'd be able to use your Swarm to freely disengage if they did get into melee but during turns where you've successfully kept away you can instead do some extra damage.

[Phhase]

Something that occurred to me: a double bladed scimitar lets you effectively 2-weapon fight without needing the fighting style to add your modified to the second attack. You just need to cop the proficiency somehow.

[Person_Man]

Maybe Battlesmith Artificer multiclass? You get the AC bonus, Shield spell, Warding Bond, Extra Attack, and the easily healed and replaced Steel Defender, which can stand between you and enemies, soak damage, and has the at-will Deflect Attack ability.

[Ganryu]

Eh, if going the gloomstalker/spore one, I'd actually recommend bugbear over gith. Sure, won't help temp HP technically directly, but three attacks for, let's say using shillelagh.

4d8+9d6+15 isn't too bad damage for first round of combat. Probably need alert at some point to ensure getting the jump for the first strike.

Alternatively, weird, but goblin. Grab booming blade, ignore the three attacks thing, hit and run while casting druid spells to entangle an enemy, like a good druid. They chase you, it hurts and probably can't catch you.


Alternatively, alternatively, going against grain, want a gish druid, shadow touched: inflict wounds, blindsight fighting style, fogcloud say hi. Pure druid here, hits once, but hits hard. (Optional, star druid for bonus action additional damage)

Alternatively, alternatively, alternatively, astral monk 3/5, grab fighting style: unarmed (so 1d8 damage), expertise athletics, you become a grappling god using your wisdom instead of strength, screaming "CHOKE ON IT" as you choke out and choke your enemy. Even better is if you plantgrowth the area, turning it into a cage match before doing this. The unspoken rule is your character now owns a wrestling mask.