Should epic level rules apply to monsters

[redking]

One of the principles of 3E/3.5e was that monsters are built the same way as PC, following the same rules. Yet when the Epic Level Handbook came out, it made separate rules for PCs and monsters. What rules? These rules.


Epic Save Bonus
A character’s base save bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th. However, the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all saving throws at every even-numbered level beyond 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses. Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base save bonus, use the sum of your base save bonus and epic save bonus.

Epic Attack Bonus
Similarly, the character’s base attack bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th. However, the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all attacks at every odd-numbered level beyond 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses. Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base attack bonus (except for gaining additional attacks), use the sum of your base attack bonus and epic attack bonus.

PCs were required to get a +1 to attacks and +1 to all saves every two levels at epic levels. Monsters retained their non-epic base attack bonus and saving throws when their racial hit dice were in epic levels. In some cases that was great for the monsters, such as Outsiders or Dragons. Sometimes not so great if the creature type was not a good one. Iterative attacks continued to be gained by the monsters.

I suspect that the reason why monsters were not held to the same rules as the PCs is that all of the monster stats would require a rewrite. Not a major rewrite, but expecting people to buy the Monstrous Manuals again would be a bridge too far.

Do you think that monsters with epic racial HD should conform to the same rules of PCs?

[Remuko]

One of the principles of 3E/3.5e was that monsters are built the same way as PC, following the same rules. Yet when the Epic Level Handbook came out, it made separate rules for PCs and monsters. What rules? These rules.

i just dont take it this way at all. the rules apply to racial hit die, which yes almost never apply to PCs but a PC could in theory be a monster with only Racial HD and he would follow the same rules as "monsters". Its just rules for what happens if you have class levels vs if you don't and should (imo) apply whether its a PC or not, so I don't think it breaks the principle at all, even tho it does tiptoe the fine line closely.

[Tzardok]

Yes, I do, but I think it should go the other way round. Let the martials have the one good thing they have going and give them more BAB.

[Chronos]

Quoth redking:

Iterative attacks continued to be gained by the monsters.
Yes and no... A 32-HD monster whose RHD give poor BAB advancement can still make four iterative attacks, but no matter what your BAB or EAB, nobody ever gets more than four iterative attacks.

I do think that making epic characters no longer get any further iteratives is a design flaw. It means that for any epic character whose levels aren't all in full-BAB classes, what order you take your class levels in matters, and you absolutely must arrange things so you hit the magic 16 by level 20, and if you don't, you're forever screwed and can never fix it, no matter how many other levels you take.

For that matter, giving everyone the same attack and save progression in epic, regardless of class, also means that a fighter/wizard has more attack bonus than a wizard/fighter, which also doesn't make sense. And different BAB and save progressions is part of a class's designed power budget (too much of the budget, for most martials), and so homogenizing that ends up unfairly penalizing those classes (i.e., the classes who were already behind the most).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Racial HD aren't class levels, the epic progressions only apply to class levels. I'm pretty sure it only starts applying when you get over 20 class levels, monsters will have the normal progressions for all their racial HD, and their first 20 class levels, and only use the epic progressions for their 21st and higher class levels. Still can't get more than four iterative attacks, regardless of BAB.

I agree that pre-epic BAB limiting an epic level character's iterative attacks is unfair. Especially when you have things like the Skillful weapon enchant in CA (sets your BAB to 3/4 of your character level) and Divine Power (sets your BAB to equal your character level) to completely negate not only pre-epic class level choices but also epic progression rules with regards to BAB. I'd allow retraining of what order levels were taken in, provided it's still a legal build, if a player wants to move high BAB class levels to pre-epic.

[Thunder999]

It basically comes down to monsters having way inflated HD by default, a monster isn't Epic at 21 HD, in fact it may well not even have hit double digit CR.
Unlike class levels most monster HD are garbage, very few even manage d10 full BAB.

[Remuko]

Racial HD aren't class levels, the epic progressions only apply to class levels. I'm pretty sure it only starts applying when you get over 20 class levels, monsters will have the normal progressions for all their racial HD, and their first 20 class levels, and only use the epic progressions for their 21st and higher class levels. Still can't get more than four iterative attacks, regardless of BAB.

I agree that pre-epic BAB limiting an epic level character's iterative attacks is unfair. Especially when you have things like the Skillful weapon enchant in CA (sets your BAB to 3/4 of your character level) and Divine Power (sets your BAB to equal your character level) to completely negate not only pre-epic class level choices but also epic progression rules with regards to BAB. I'd allow retraining of what order levels were taken in, provided it's still a legal build, if a player wants to move high BAB class levels to pre-epic.

AFB atm but I'm fairly sure the rules say that if a creature with 20+ HD takes even a single class level it starts following the epic rules. it only follows the racial HD rules as long as those are its only "levels".

[redking]

AFB atm but I'm fairly sure the rules say that if a creature with 20+ HD takes even a single class level it starts following the epic rules. it only follows the racial HD rules as long as those are its only "levels".

That's right.Tbis introduces an odd situation where a creature with 30 RHD begins to get epic attack bonus and epic saving throw bonus starting at character level 31-32.It would be simpler to have them follow the same rules.

Speaking of this, I've noticed that certain creature statblocks in the SRD are incorrect even going via the rules that RHD continues to progress BAB.


ELDER TITAN
Colossal Outsider (Extraplanar)

Hit Dice: 70d8+700 (1,015 hp)
AC: 58 (-8 size, +32 natural, +24 insight)
Base Attack/Grapple: +70/+104
Attack: Colossal +5 warhammer +87 (4d8+30/19-20 (+2d6 on critical hit)) melee; or Colossal +5 javelin +70 (2d10+22/19-20) ranged
Full Attack: Colossal +5 warhammer +87/+82/+77/+72 (4d8+30/19-20 (+2d6 on critical hit)) melee; or Colossal +5 javelin +70/+65/+60/+55 (2d10+22/19-20) ranged
Saves: Fort +47, Ref +37, Will +50
Abilities: Str 45, Dex 10, Con 31, Int 33, Wis 37, Cha 26


70 Outsider RHD gives a 70 BAB. So that is correct. After that, it starts to get wonky.

70 Outsider RHD = 70 BAB. 45 Str = +17 to attack. +5 Warhammer = +5 to attack. Weapon focus and epic weapon focus for Warhammer = +3 to attack. Colossal = -8 to attack.The full attack.

The attack line should read: +84, +79, +74, +69. Now we know what the correct calculation for the elder titan attack line is, let's see what it would look like if RHD followed the same build rules as all other epic characters.

70 Outsider RHD capped at 20 RHD for BAB. +25 epic attack bonus. 45 Str = +17 to attack. +5 Warhammer = +5 to attack. Weapon focus and epic weapon focus for Warhammer = +3 to attack. Colossal = -8 to attack.

This attack line would be +62, +57, +52, 47.

This seems a lot more reasonable.

I think epic attack bonus should increase iterative attacks up to the maximum 4, even though the ELH says it doesn't do this at all.

As for the saving throws, they are calculated correctly: Fort +47, Ref +37, Will +50. If the epic save bonus was used instead, the saving throws would be: +47, Ref +37, Will +50. A coincidence, but an interesting one.

[Biggus]

It's not about PCs vs monsters, it's about class levels vs racial HD. NPCs and monsters with class levels follow the same rules as PCs do for those levels. Likewise, if you make a PC with lots of racial HD, they use the same rules monsters do for those hit dice. So this doesn't break the PC-monster transparency thing at all.

I do agree that characters with 21+ class levels should be able to use their best 20 levels to determine their BAB (and hence number of iteratives) though, not their first 20. The "first 20 levels set your BAB forever" thing always struck me as a really stupid rule. I use the "best 20 levels" thing in my epic games and it causes zero problems.



70 Outsider RHD = 70 BAB. 45 Str = +17 to attack. +5 Warhammer = +5 to attack. Weapon focus and epic weapon focus for Warhammer = +3 to attack. Colossal = -8 to attack.The full attack.


70+17=87
87+5=92
92+3=95
95-8=87

[redking]

I do agree that characters with 21+ class levels should be able to use their best 20 levels to determine their BAB (and hence number of iteratives) though, not their first 20. The "first 20 levels set your BAB forever" thing always struck me as a really stupid rule. I use the "best 20 levels" thing in my epic games and it causes zero problems.

There is a Monk 20 Fighter 20 (or was that fighter 10?) in the epic level handbook and its a real tragedy. I think it makes sense to allow players (and DMs) to arrange their character levels in whatever way results in a legal build. For example, Monk 20 Fighter 20 should be permitted to use the Fighter BAB. But what about the saving throws? Do you allow best BAB + best saving throws?