Warlocks: am I missing something?

[Riftwolf]

So I'm looking at the Warlock class and I know about Coffee-locks but... I can't figure out how I'm supposed to play one? Do I *need* to take Eldritch Blast for the class to work? Is it a spellcaster class or a hybrid? Does the class need regular breaks to regain slots that other classes don't? Do they run out of steam stupidly fast?
I'm wanting to build a Genie-Chain Warlock NPC for backstory reasons but I don't know if they'd be useless? I know an NPC's effectiveness doesn't really matter but I don't want to build someone easily outclassed by a badly built Swamp Druid?

[Boci]

For consistent damage, yes you need eldritch blast, and the support package (minimum agonizing blast, one of the moment ones doesn't hurt either). I played one without it, and they function, but their in combat contributions were lackluster, unless a levelled spell happened to do the trick, which was not every round obviously. You other option if hexblade, but then you can't be genie patron.

However for NPCs, its generally discouraged to use full player rules, too much effort for not a whole lot of payoff. You can instead take an warlock NPC profile and tweak it to fit genie patron. What level are they suppose to be?

[RSP]

So I'm looking at the Warlock class and I know about Coffee-locks but... I can't figure out how I'm supposed to play one? Do I *need* to take Eldritch Blast for the class to work? Is it a spellcaster class or a hybrid? Does the class need regular breaks to regain slots that other classes don't? Do they run out of steam stupidly fast?
I'm wanting to build a Genie-Chain Warlock NPC for backstory reasons but I don't know if they'd be useless? I know an NPC's effectiveness doesn't really matter but I don't want to build someone easily outclassed by a badly built Swamp Druid?

Warlocks require a bit more planning than other classes, to build an appropriate character. Part of that is because the class supports various builds/play styles, between pact, patron, spell and invocation choices.

If you want to be good at ranged combat, EB and Agonizing Blast are good choices, but not necessary if building a melee pact if the blade character. You can lean heavily into EB with additional invocations such as Repelling Blast which grant fantastic battlefield control options. Likewise, if planning on relying on EB for combat, adding Hex as a spell can increase the damage dealt as well.

But other builds/play styles might forgo each of those options for different choices.

If you can let us know how you want the character to act and/or if there’s specific things you’re looking for the character to do, we might be able to help a bit more in designing the warlock.

And, yes, Warlocks require short rests to function to expectations.

[LibraryOgre]

So I'm looking at the Warlock class and I know about Coffee-locks but... I can't figure out how I'm supposed to play one? Do I *need* to take Eldritch Blast for the class to work? Is it a spellcaster class or a hybrid? Does the class need regular breaks to regain slots that other classes don't? Do they run out of steam stupidly fast?
I'm wanting to build a Genie-Chain Warlock NPC for backstory reasons but I don't know if they'd be useless? I know an NPC's effectiveness doesn't really matter but I don't want to build someone easily outclassed by a badly built Swamp Druid?

So, I like to view a warlock as playing kind of like a Superhero... you have some pretty constant abilities (cantrips, invocations, patron powers, pact boons), but you also have spells that you can pull out infrequently (because you have so few spell slots).

A warlock is perfectly playable without Eldritch blast; it is one of their best tools, by far, but you can play just fine without it. However, a warlock REALLY benefits ina group that takes short rests, because their limited spell slots are offset by the fact that they keep coming back; even without coffeelock cheese, they cast a lot of spells, always at the top level of power.

However, they also can do pretty well without it; they've got superpowers in their invocations. Someone who focuses on Eldritch Blast invocations can maneuver people around the battlefield (using Repelling Blast and Grasp of Hadar), and they can do things like give themselves instant armor, or temporary HP, or other tricks.

[BRC]

The warlock is a hybrid class, it's got three things going for it

1) Martial-Equivalent basic attack routine. Eldritch Blast+Agonizing blast scales about the same as a fighter's attack routine. It's not quite as good as a Martial, which usually brings some tricks along, but it's roughly equivalent, and all keyed off your primary stat. You can't really go wrong with spending your round casting eldritch blast.

2) Burst Power and utility, pact magic means throwing out a few powerful spells, you don't have many, but they're easy to recover, so you don't really need to worry about saving them. That said, unlike a full caster, you can't really "Go Nova" and throw out big spells turn after turn, and your ability to use utility spells is greatly diminished unless you are frequently short resting.

3) Consistent minor utility: Invocations provide potentially powerful minor utility effects like Disguise Self, Spider Climb, ect that don't take spell slots.

A Warlock that doesn't want to spend any resources is still a fairly potent contribution to the party, either from a damage or utility perspective. When they DO want to spend resources, they have access to powerful effects that are more easily recovered.



The resulting experience is mostly a hybrid between the resource management of a full caster and the consistency of a mundane character.

[da newt]

One of the nice things about warlocks is they don't really have to worry about limited resources - they can go 100% every time because all they need is an hour and they are back at 100% capacity. Use your biggest spells with near reckless abandon, you only have 2 but who cares - you get them all back after a short breather and you always upcast them.

Also the pact of the chain can be incredibly handy if you lean into using your little helper to it's fullest.

If you want to go very simple but effective, hexblade patron for armor and shield and hexes, chain pact for invisible help, goblin for BA hide, Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast + Repelling Blast = KISS magic archer.




*** how do you get spider climb as an invocation? I LOVE me some spider climb, but I'm not aware of that one ...

[Kane0]

I'm wanting to build a Genie-Chain Warlock NPC for backstory reasons but I don't know if they'd be useless? I know an NPC's effectiveness doesn't really matter but I don't want to build someone easily outclassed by a badly built Swamp Druid?

You can pick the invocations that juice up your familiar instead of Eldritch blast and be fine, at least until mid levels where their lack of hp starts getting them killed off too quickly. The good news is that using a familiar for supplemental attacks saves you from also using resources on Hex at the same time, so you can cast or concentrate on something else, or just sit back with a cantrip even if it isn't Eldritch blast (or base EB without supporting invocations)

You will always be wanting those short rests though, warlocks do their best work in parties with fighters and monks.

[LibraryOgre]

You can pick the invocations that juice up your familiar instead of Eldritch blast and be fine, at least until mid levels where their lack of hp starts getting them killed off too quickly. The good news is that using a familiar for supplemental attacks saves you from also using resources on Hex at the same time, so you can cast or concentrate on something else, or just sit back with a cantrip even if it isn't Eldritch blast (or base EB without supporting invocations)

You will always be wanting those short rests though, warlocks do their best work in parties with fighters and monks.

Wizards and Land Druids can get some love in those parties, too.

[Riftwolf]

However for NPCs, its generally discouraged to use full player rules, too much effort for not a whole lot of payoff. You can instead take an warlock NPC profile and tweak it to fit genie patron. What level are they suppose to be?

I started building them at 5th just to start, my party is 9th level and it wouldn't make much sense to have the Genielock be more powerful than us. I'll talk to the DM if they want to put the stats together or let me build them, he's allowed other players to build nemesii before.
Maybe I'd be better off building a similar character idea without using the warlock class?

[Boci]

I started building them at 5th just to start, my party is 9th level and it wouldn't make much sense to have the Genielock be more powerful than us. I'll talk to the DM if they want to put the stats together or let me build them, he's allowed other players to build nemesii before.
Maybe I'd be better off building a similar character idea without using the warlock class?

For a nemisis likely. If you are using PC classes, Warlock have a lot of utility, that won't be too visible on a nemesis, though this does depend to some degree on the kind of campaign your DM runs. Sorceror does mention pacts as a possible source of their magic weirdly enough, so you could make an elemental sorceror and say they have a strong genie conenction.

[Frozenstep]

What's this NPC being used for? Because if it's just for backstory reasons, you don't need to worry too much. If they actually show up and do combat sometimes, then give them a very simple strategy: Open a fight with a particular spell that works with their identity (5th level? there's plenty of strong ones, like hypnotic pattern or hunger of hadar), and then spend the rest of their time eldritch blasting. Or hexblading, I guess, if that suits them better. It sounds simple but it's a pretty effective strategy.

[RogueJK]

If you try to play a Warlock as an AoE blaster, for example, dropping two Fireballs per combat and then begging the party to rest for an hour after every single fight, then you're going to feel like they run out of steam easily. But that's not their role.

Instead, they're incentivized to use their spell slots more tactically, and primarily for longer duration Concentration spells rather than single castings of burst damage (unless it really counts). You plan to pop ~1 impactful Concentration spell per major combat, and then rely on their resourceless options in subsequent rounds or during minor combats, occasionally dropping a second leveled spell in a really big fight. And Warlocks have access to even better resourceless options that the average full spellcaster.

However, this is partly dependent on how your DM runs their sessions. If your party has the proverbial "5 minute adventuring day", where you only have 1 or 2 fights each day, then obviously the other full spellcasters are going to be able to utilize significantly more leveled spells in each combat than you, exhausting their full daily allotment of spell slots willy-nilly in just one fight without having to worry about rationing them. Rather, the designers of 5E have balanced things around ~6-8 encounters per day, with ~2-3 short rests. So in that light, the Warlock has the ability to cast a similar number of significant leveled spells than another full caster overall (6-8), since the full casters are having to ration their Long Rest slots throughout the day, while the Warlock does not. In addition, every spell the Warlock casts with Pact slots is automatically at their highest level, which pairs well with spells that gain significant benefits from upcasting.

Warlocks also shine out of combat, with their access to certain useful Invocations, and lowered cost of casting certain utility spells. In exploration, city visits, or downtime, they can easily use spells like Fly, Teleportation Circle, Scrying, etc., and then it's only a 1 hour rest to get those slots backs rather than a different spellcaster having to wait for the next day. And certain Warlocks can cast a few long duration spells like Death Ward or Seeming as "1 hour rituals", wherein they start the day by casting an 8 hour duration spell then taking a short rest before the party even sets out, allowing the party to go the next 7 hours with the benefit of the spell.

No, Eldritch Blast isn't 100% necessary. Certainly, Warlocks are pushed towards utilizing EB as their primary resourceless combat contribution, but there are other viable options. Once you've played a few EBlocks, you start looking for something different, and there are a number of other paths available. For example, you can make a solid ranged or melee weapon Warlock by going Pact of the Blade and a patron like Undead or Hexblade. Or Celestial Tomelocks work well as single-attack melee builds with Shillelagh + Green Flame Blade, and can do just fine with a ranged cantrip like Sacred Flame instead of EB. (Search the "Celestial Warlock Generalist" build.)

[diplomancer]

I'd say BRC hit the nail on the head.

As to the NPC. I'm of the opinion that, if you're going to make an anthagonist that uses a PC-template, Warlocks are perfect. You see, NPCs rarely have time constraints, so they can pull off a lot offscreen as Warlocks. And the fact that they can't effectively Nova a full LR worth of resources if/when fighting the PCs is another point in its favor, making Warlocks closer, resource-management wise, to the way NPCs are designed.

Re: Eldritch Blast- A Pact of the Blade doesn't need it, but other Pacts will feel its absence when it comes to dealing damage, even if they can contribute otherwise.

Re: Hex. Hex is bad. Don't use it, at least past level 5, unless you're making good use of the debuff. If it's only for damage, it's not worth it.

[Skrum]

Oh the pages I could write about warlocks.

In short though, your observations are absolutely correct, and in a word, warlocks are underpowered/lackluster. They don't have enough spell power (both in choice of spells and spell slots) to function like a full caster, so they're forced into spending invocations on the very repetitive and frankly underwhelming eldritch blast.

Their problems are highly exacerbated by their funky rest schedule. With a DM that's aware, they're fairly functional. If the DM isn't aware, or they favor really deadly, long combats, the warlock is going to be even less than the sum of their parts.

Lastly, and what I think might be the most damning part, they get virtually nothing from levels 6-10. They get their 3rd slot WAY too late, leaving them playing the exact same game at 10th that they were playing at 5th, while the rest of the party is progressing to newer and better things.

But - warlocks do have a weird collection of different things that makes them really fun for multiclassing. If you're totally set on at least a few warlock levels, I would recommend pairing it with something else (fighter, paladin, sorcerer, and bard all have good synergy).

[Riftwolf]

Okay a few questions to answer (on the phone so I can't link everyone)

1) I'm building this NPC mostly as a thought exercise and because I like building characters. My character doesn't know if the NPC is alive (he had a recent near-death experience with a Gorgon that's made him re-evaluate his life), though I'll hopefully get chance to talk to my DM about it before the next time I can cast Divination.

2) Suggesting Warlock as a good NPC class feels serendipitous to what I wanted to do for this character. My Druid is currently trying to reconnect with people from his past, for personal reasons and to piece together what happened in his backstory in a war which is now plot relevant. The Genielock is basically the equivalent of a high school sweetheart, I'm planning them to follow the plot of "Angel is a Centrefold" but replacing "Centrefold" with "Warlock who signed a pact with the Plane of Air."

3) Multiclassing them with Bard or Sorcerer would make sense flavour-wise and possibly be more fun to build. Paladin/Lock would be even funnier as a "They did WHAT?" moment that'd fit with the wildly fluctuating tone of the game. Is there a feral paladin subclass?

[RogueJK]

It depends on what you mean by "feral Paladin subclass".

None of them are overtly "feral", but Ancients has a nature-ish theme, Vengeance or Conquest could be a brutal warrior, or Glory might work as an animalistic fighter who gains bursts of strength, speed, and damage.

So any of those could apply, depending on what exactly you mean, and how you flavor it.

[Riftwolf]

It depends on what you mean by "feral Paladin subclass".

None of them are overtly "feral", but Ancients has a nature-ish theme, Vengeance or Conquest could be a brutal warrior, or Glory might work as an animalistic fighter who gains bursts of strength, speed, and damage.

So any of those could apply, depending on what exactly you mean, and how you flavor it.

Oath Of Ancients seems the best fit, they're like Druidy Paladins. My characters homeland is wilderness with no permanent settlements so 'cityfolk' classes wouldn't really make sense for someone he grew up with.

[Unoriginal]

Warlocks are pretty awesome, but they're one of the "weirder" classes.

Selecting your Patron, your Pact Boon, your Invocations, and your spells can make for very different builds. And more importantly, how those things synergize will affect how effective the Warlock will be.

It's true Warlocks need to select their cantrips carefully, as it's generally their bread-n-butter rather than a fallback tool like for most casters. And Eldritch Blast is a good cantrip, since it has good range, good damage, and good scaling at higher level. But it truly shines when Invocations boosting it are selected.

As a result, it makes it hard to ignore as an option.

Still, that doesn't mean it needs to be the only option even if you go for it.

To go back to my earlier point, Genie patron + Pact of the Chains don't synergize exceptionally well, but that doesn't mean you can't nice things with it.

For example:

-Mask of Many Faces let you cast Disguise Self at will.

-Your Familiar can be an Imp

-Your Vessel can be a ring

Ergo: this Warlock can infiltrate any structure where the Imp can gets in while transporting the ring, then taking the appearance of someone who's supposed to be here (ex: a guard or a servant) once they're in. If that disguise risks to be compromised or something more convenient is discovered, they can switch as much as needed/wanted.

Or alternatively, they can get in any structure that allows visitors normally, do spy things, then try to escape by summoning their Imp familiar, giving them the ring, and going in the ring.

Or they can hide the ring somewhere hard to find, like in the dirt of a potted plant, behind a picture or inside a chariot, get inside the ring, then wait for a few hours and get out when no one's here to see them get out. But just in case they can magically disguise themselves as a ghost to scare away anyone unlucky enough to see them get out of their Vessel.

[Person_Man]

Its my experience that Warlocks are needlessly over complicated to build, but very easy to play. The big draws are obviously Eldritch Blast and Short Rest spells, which give you a respectable at-will ranged damage and auto-scaling spells as a panic button or for boss fights (or whenever its clear that you’re close to finishing an area and will have a chance to Short Rest soon).

If you’re not using EB, you’ll still be fine, particularly if you’re Pact of Blade and weren’t going to use it often anyway. But depending on your ability scores and build goals you might consider Paladin, Artificer, Ranger, or Bard, which can each play similar to a non-EB Warlock (hit stuff with a weapon and use magic occasionally) but each with different strengths.

[sithlordnergal]

One of the nice things about warlocks is they don't really have to worry about limited resources - they can go 100% every time because all they need is an hour and they are back at 100% capacity. Use your biggest spells with near reckless abandon, you only have 2 but who cares - you get them all back after a short breather and you always upcast them.

Also the pact of the chain can be incredibly handy if you lean into using your little helper to it's fullest.

If you want to go very simple but effective, hexblade patron for armor and shield and hexes, chain pact for invisible help, goblin for BA hide, Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast + Repelling Blast = KISS magic archer.




*** how do you get spider climb as an invocation? I LOVE me some spider climb, but I'm not aware of that one ...

I'd be a bit more wary with your spells personally...you really can't guarantee a short rest after every encounter. I know that as a DM, I limit short and long rests, so you can't just have one encounter and immediately take a short rest. Though I also give Warlocks a 3rd spell slot at level 6 to compensate, since they're the only class that consistently runs out of major resources after 1 encounter instead of 2 to 3.

[Frozenstep]

I'd be a bit more wary with your spells personally...you really can't guarantee a short rest after every encounter. I know that as a DM, I limit short and long rests, so you can't just have one encounter and immediately take a short rest. Though I also give Warlocks a 3rd spell slot at level 6 to compensate, since they're the only class that consistently runs out of major resources after 1 encounter instead of 2 to 3.

It really depends on the table, but you can't guarantee a short rest opportunity won't happen. Not that resources should be spent frivolously, but it's better to nova with short rest resources, and then if you get ambushed before you can get a short rest, start drawing from the long rest resources.

But the discussion has been done to death a million times so it's really just a "read the room" situation when it comes to your table.

[Dalinar]

I have played Marid Genielock for a few levels (1-6) in a campaign that's currently on hiatus. Here's how it's gone so far.

The short version is that the character plays like a slippery archer with lots of positional manipulation and a few big power plays a day from the spell slots.

The original intent of the character was, like many Warlocks, that I was going to spam Eldritch Blast with Agonizing/Repelling Blast invocations in order to take advantage of environmental effects and AOE spells. I chose Marid specifically because I like Fog Cloud a lot and I thought Sleet Storm was a super cool spell (I still do, though it hasn't come up as much as I hoped--it runs into a bit of a Darkness/Devil's Sight problem sometimes, where using your cool thing interferes with your party too much; which is less of a thing with Fog Cloud in my experience because it doesn't interfere with movement).

To double down on the slippery playstyle I'm using, I took Gift of the Gem Dragonborn at 4, which helps get people off me as a reaction. I also made sure I took Misty Step for a spell, even though that's kind of painful to upcast for a Warlock, and now that the character is 6 I can fly for ten minute bursts as well (our adventuring days are long, gritty resting is in play, so I don't expect high uptime on that, but it's still potent).

All that combines with some setting-specific and campaign-specific mobility I was able to get (a racial BA disengage, which you can get by playing goblin in more normal settings; and a climb speed, swim speed, and the ability to squeeze through small gaps like water) to make a character that, despite having 25ft walk speed, has absurd freedom of movement within that range. I can then leverage that to make sure Repelling Blast is putting enemies in places that are convenient for the party, or take advantage of the environment, without putting myself somewhere where I'm going to get locked down.

This warlock is on Pact of the Chain, so I've got a pseudodragon familiar which is pretty nice (imp is generally the favorite chain familiar among optimizers, though). I mostly use the lil guy for scouting, Help actions, and the blindsight to navigate in my own Fog Cloud once in a while and for general anti-invisibility purposes. This also gets me Gift of the Ever-Living Ones as my third invocation, and the way the DM likes to run our resources dry, I'll take all the HP recovery I can get! We have a lot of glass cannons in this party, so sometimes I end up frontlining intentionally for a round or two while the even squishier squishies do their thing. I wouldn't recommend trying to be a frontline Warlock unless you're trying to do Hexblade or you have some other game plan in mind.

I've also gotten a ton of mileage out of Counterspell and Dispel Magic. Given I'm in a pretty squishy party, making sure I can negate incoming Fireballs and the like is mission critical, and Dispel Magic has come up a lot for bosses that have magical defenses (admittedly the RAW of it is clunky, but I think it's pretty reasonable for a DM to rule it works a bit more broadly). Since my slots are all level 3 and they come back on a short rest anyway, it feels like a less stressful decision than it would for a same-level wizard who could do it fewer times per day.

Overall, despite common player complaints about "just spam Eldritch Blast" making Warlocks boring to play, I haven't had that issue with this particular character, in major part because of Repelling Blast making my positioning decisions feel more meaningful. It's likely that the next Warlock I make will be a Dao Genie because I enjoy the style so much, though I have a few other concepts to get through first. I never feel like I can't contribute because I've got a really strong ranged attack, and while I am a bit lacking on "delete that guy now" spells (probably taking Blight next level to shore that up), I do have a ton of control and utility options when I feel the need to hit that big red button and blow a spell slot on something.

[sithlordnergal]

It really depends on the table, but you can't guarantee a short rest opportunity won't happen. Not that resources should be spent frivolously, but it's better to nova with short rest resources, and then if you get ambushed before you can get a short rest, start drawing from the long rest resources.

But the discussion has been done to death a million times so it's really just a "read the room" situation when it comes to your table.

The main problem with Warlocks is their lack of Long Rest resources, and how few Short Rest resources they have. I will say its pretty easy to prevent a Short or Long Rest as a DM. But you're correct, the discussion has been done to death.

[Ganryu]

NPC's don't have class levels, do NOT under ANY circumstances, give them one. PCs are glass cannons for the most part, they hit hard, they use abilities, do big numbers, players feel awesome.

NPCs are a mountain with a trick or two to them, have a ton of HP comparitively to make combat take more than one round, and hit just hard enough to make a PC feel like they're about to die, but won't one shot them. (That tricky part is the fun of DM'ing, finding that balance). If you send two PCs against in combat, it's going to be a very short combat, and the PCs are going to be pissed about it either way, very swingy.

If you want NPC warlock, look in Volo's for the monster statblock for a warlock. Give them whatever you want, DM, building cool crap's half your job, long as the PC's shine. Having a familar report their word every 5 seconds, or having them show up to annoy PCs could be amazing. Give them whatever skills you want, just use their prof+skill like anyone else.

I had 3 bosses over a campaign that were all different aspects of the pact, and was fun. Chain guy showed up riding a purple worm. Tome was in charge of planning and had eldritch blast that hit each party members, teaching squishies about cover real quick (but was 1 per person, so didn't abuse tanks), Blade had some fun timey-whimey themes that'd he'd appear and reappear slashing at people. NPCs, have fun. Just make sure it's balanced, party'll loved'em. Want to capture the genie warlock, give them wish spell they might give the party one of, if they're helpful. if they like them, use that whole genie in a bottle thing at lvl 1 as entire plane.

That said, if you want to build PC, fun thing about warlocks is they can be build to do any role in the game. They can do that one thing. But, yeah, they'll do that one thing, and pretty much nothing else.

However, if starting out, yeah, just grab eldritch blast and agonizing blast cantrip (probably repelling too). What warlock was made to do. Cast hex on someone, blast them til they stop twitching, move hex to your next friend (yeah, I know, optimizers will complain about this, but it's not about sheer damage numbers, it's about being noob friendly, and this is good enough, can do spicy damage compared to say, starting out wizard most of the time.) This is how a warlock SHOULD be built by default.

[Amnestic]

NPC's don't have class levels, do NOT under ANY circumstances, give them one.

The DMG says you can, and provides some guidance for doing so under the Monsters with Classes section on page 283.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/561287824964452363/1177973542944518175/image.png?

[Boci]

The DMG says you can

Ganryu didn't say DMs CAN'T do it, they said DMs "shouldn't ever". Those are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

[Amnestic]

Ganryu didn't say DMs CAN'T do it, they said DMs "shouldn't ever". Those are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Okay, well then I'll just say "the game gives guidance on you doing so and also it's absolutely fine to do so and doesn't cause any issues whatsoever".

[Boci]

Okay, well then I'll just say "the game gives guidance on you doing so and also it's absolutely fine to do so and doesn't cause any issues whatsoever".

I disagree. Its not a major issue, but it is needlessly over complicating a fight for the DM for no real benefit, which quite a few would describe as "an issue". Its better to just give the werewolf barbarian what you want them to have and ignoring how players would advance in the class. So likely rage, unarmoured defence and brutal crit, and some extra HP. Also giving them reckless attack, danger sense, fast movement and feral instinct its just more busywork that is unnecessary for an enemy designed for a single combat encounter.

[Ganryu]

Yeah, I'm talking from experience here. When I was a new Dm, everything had class levels. Waaaay too swingy.

Sure, you can give an NPC that, but it ends up bad game design.

End of the day, NPCs are just a vehicle to help you tell a story. The PCs are the real heroes.

[Amnestic]

Also giving them reckless attack, danger sense, fast movement and feral instinct its just more busywork that is unnecessary for an enemy designed for a single combat encounter.

?

Reckless is already a monster ability that's used elsewhere.
Adv on certain saves is already a monster ability in the form of Magic Resistance. Not sure how Danger Sense is more 'busywork'.
Slightly increased movement speed is...just a change in a single number?
Feral Instinct is extremely simple to handle.

How are these 'busywork' any moreso than another monster trait? Plus, they don't have to be designed 'for a single combat encounter'. You can reuse them (it's a werewolf barbarian tribe!) or make them a boss monster that runs away or whatever.

[Ganryu]

?

Reckless is already a monster ability that's used elsewhere.
Adv on certain saves is already a monster ability in the form of Magic Resistance. Not sure how Danger Sense is more 'busywork'.
Slightly increased movement speed is...just a change in a single number?
Feral Instinct is extremely simple to handle.

How are these 'busywork' any moreso than another monster trait? Plus, they don't have to be designed 'for a single combat encounter'. You can reuse them (it's a werewolf barbarian tribe!) or make them a boss monster that runs away or whatever.

I'm legit curious if you've ever had this go well with monsters with PC levels.

Story time!

[Boci]

How are these 'busywork' any moreso than another monster trait?

They aren't, but you're adding without taking away any, and that adds up. Werewolves have 3 traits you need to keep track of as a DM: keen sense, shapechange and immunity to non-magical/silvered weapons. Your idea of a werewolf berserker adds 7 extra (assuming no archetype, 8-9 with one), leaving the DM with about 10 things to remember on this single enemy. Any one of those 10 traits would be easy enough to remember, but all 10 together? Sure, its not impossible, but its pointlessly complicated when you can just give them rage and brutal crit and call it done. Much easier, and the expirience fighting the creature will basically be the same.

[Amnestic]

I'm legit curious if you've ever had this go well with monsters with PC levels.

Story time!

I mean there's not much in the way of stories other than "yes, I've used it for some monsters/NPCs in the past and it went fine."

I don't do it for all of them, but I've used both monsters+class levels and pure class level characters against players in the past and they work just fine. "They're fragile but dangerous", yeah, they certainly can be. Glass cannon creatures exist for monsters too (most NPC spellcasters).


They aren't, but you're adding without taking away any, and that adds up. Werewolves have 3 traits you need to keep track of as a DM: keen sense, shapechange and immunity to non-magical/silvered weapons. Your idea of a werewolf berserker adds 7 extra (assuming no archetype, 8-9 with one), leaving the DM with about 10 things to remember on this single enemy. Any one of those 10 traits would be easy enough to remember, but all 10 together? Sure, its not impossible, but its pointlessly complicated when you can just give them rage and brutal crit and call it done. Much easier, and the expirience fighting the creature will basically be the same.

"Basically" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here, because it's not the same, is it? A reckless werewolf tweaks how players are going to approach the fight as soon as they see Reckless activate. If they're winning on initiative (feral instinct) and have fast movement (fast movement), they can dart into the backline before the party can get a turn, and suddenly the dynamic shifts from "meet them with our frontliners" to "oh, they're savaging our squishies, with advantage on every attack", and if they're a Berserker then you can't Frighten/Charm them at all either.

If the party sneaks up on the werewolf pack with the aim of surprising them, only for them to immediately rage and negate the Surprise, is that the same encounter? No, not at all.

Or what if you're tossing a couple of fighter levels onto a dude? Once they start tossing out BM maneuvers every attack to trip and disarm and push and whatnot then they're going to go "oh, these guys are doing stuff" instead of just "I attack twice".

[Boci]

"Basically" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here, because it's not the same, is it?

Not really. Its not hard in a vacuum where you control the monsters and players actions to come up with a detailed, precise scenario the fight perfectly showcases all of the monsters 10+ abilities, but in practice you'll find that 95% this doesn't happen. You as the DM will forget an ability, because you are juggling multiple things during a session / combat, or the players will outflank the monster with some tactic you didn't see coming, and the fight will be the same as if you had just given them the 2-3 core abilities of the class, instead of everything.


Or what if you're tossing a couple of fighter levels onto a dude? Once they start tossing out BM maneuvers every attack to trip and disarm and push and whatnot then they're going to go "oh, these guys are doing stuff" instead of just "I attack twice".

So then give them some combat manoeuvres. You don't also need to give them fighting style, second wind and action surge.

[LibraryOgre]

I'm legit curious if you've ever had this go well with monsters with PC levels.

Story time!

Exceeding well, actually.

My summer-long campaign, "Summer of the Dead God", most of the major opposing NPC were githyanki with class levels... warlocks, fighters, etc. It provides an easily scaling system for enemies, without having to recreate the wheel, or cast Disguise Self on every monster the MM, and try to remember their aliases.

[Pex]

One of the nice things about warlocks is they don't really have to worry about limited resources - they can go 100% every time because all they need is an hour and they are back at 100% capacity. Use your biggest spells with near reckless abandon, you only have 2 but who cares - you get them all back after a short breather and you always upcast them.

Also the pact of the chain can be incredibly handy if you lean into using your little helper to it's fullest.

If you want to go very simple but effective, hexblade patron for armor and shield and hexes, chain pact for invisible help, goblin for BA hide, Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast + Repelling Blast = KISS magic archer.




*** how do you get spider climb as an invocation? I LOVE me some spider climb, but I'm not aware of that one ...

It's not as simple as that. Some campaigns/DMs are stricter than others when it comes to short rests. A big deal is made taking an hour off whenever you want. Can't do it willy nilly in a dungeon crawl. Even in more narrative story games some DMs will feel like you are exploiting the system when you're saying "I'm taking a short rest" after every combat.

If the DM is never letting you/the party take short rests that's a DM problem needing discussion. It is not unreasonable to expect a short rest after two combats. Experience will tell which combat needs you to cast your spells and which you can get by just by Eldritch Blast. Because other party members are doing their things you could sometimes get away with one spell per combat then Eldritch Blast.

You do not need to be a Hexblade for melee combat prowess. It helps, yes, but it's doable without. Melee Warlock Blade Pact is not the only class that needs to juggle ability scores. You're in the same boat as paladin, barbarian, fighter. One can argue the juggling sucks, but that's about warriors in general not warlock specifically. No, the main issue is your AC. Easiest perhaps is be a DX warrior with Armor of Shadows. It's not that hard balancing DX and CH while maintaining personal bias opinion 14 CO for HP. ST warrior warlock will be hard MAD because then you want Moderately Armored feat. Unless you are phenomenally lucky in dice rolling for ability scores go DX warrior. Even with DX warrior Moderately Armored is not a bad choice of feat because that gets you shield proficiency. You can have higher than 14 DX for offense despite the feat. Player choice between the feat and Armor of Shadows.

[Rukelnikov]

I'm legit curious if you've ever had this go well with monsters with PC levels.

Story time!

In my 20 or so years as a DM I've almost always made relevant NPCs as you would a PC, it worked well in every edition I DMed (2e, 3.x, 5e).

[Skrum]

No, the main issue is your AC.

Agree with everything here, but wanted to focus in on this in particular - straight hexblade is not very functional IMO, not if you're playing at a table that has a moderate or more level of optimization. Warlock simply doesn't have enough tools to be a melee class on their own. Base AC is too low, they can't maintain concentration, and they don't have the spell slots or tools to do most of the gish things (shield, absorb elements, booming blade cheese, blur, etc.). If you want to go meleelock, I highly recommend a dip for heavy armor. Actually, I highly recommend taking 6 levels of paladin.

[RogueJK]

No need to chase Heavy Armor via multiclassing for a Hexblade. The difference between Heavy Armor and Medium Armor is 1 point.

Dipping for armor is slightly more necessary on non-Hexblade Bladelocks, but even then a VHuman/CLineage with Moderately Armored feat can have Medium Armor from the start.

[Kane0]

Even on a hexbladelock you can hang back and Eldritch blast as good as any other kind. You don't have to be a primary frontline melee, hang onto your weapon just in case you're party bruisers get downed, you cant get a good shot or the enemy thinks theyll be clever and close with you.

[Riftwolf]

Just to cut into the hex-opti-love

I think people are kinda losing track of why I'm putting together NPCs. I enjoy building characters. It helps me develop backstories, understand rules, find weird interactions etc. I'm certainly not interested in putting together optimal, simple or cookie-cutter characters. More complex the better. Busywork? Oh yes please. Let me craft a clockwork flower that shatters in the light of scrutiny.

Looking at it though, I might switch Djinni to Archfey because a) there's already at least two Archfey messing with the party so it'd integrate backstories really well and b) Misty Step is a great escape tactic so the minute the character is burnt out or feels threatened they can book it.

Just a quick question about Invocations: on ones with a level prerequisite, is that class or character level?

[Amnestic]

Just a quick question about Invocations: on ones with a level prerequisite, is that class or character level?

Class level, you need Warlock 15 to grab Master of Myriad Forms, for instance, can't go Bard 13/Warlock 2 for it.