Sorcerers can only learn from the PHB spell list?

[waptdragon3]

This post is sort of a double question.


I was rereading my PHB a few months ago (like any good DM should) and noticed something peculiar. In the Spells section for the Sorcerer, it lists how he gets new spells known.

These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list (page 192), or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. For example, a sorcerer with a scroll or spellbook detailing an unusual sorcerer/wizard spell (one not on the sorcerer/wizard spell list in this book) could select that spell as one of his new spells for attaining a new level, provided that it is of the right spell level.
At first glance, this sounds about right. They can learn common spells without issue, and can learn unusual or rare ones with a scroll or spellbook containing it. But one part stuck out to me. "... unusual sorcerer/wizard spell (one not on the sorcerer/wizard spell list in this book)" This clearly defines "unusual sorc/wiz spell" as one not in the PHB. Which means that in order to learn, for example, Orb of Fire from Spell Compendium, a sorcerer needs to have a scroll of it. To me, it fits the flavor of a sorcerer (monsters only have SLA emulating PHB spells, and sorcerers are just a step removed from them), but it greatly nerfs sorcerers who were already 3 steps behind a wizard. Side note: neither bards nor wizards have that clarification. That is a sorcerer only thing. Me and my co-DM decided to ignore that snippet and let sorcerers learn any sorcerer spell, and even gave them the buff of being able to use any scroll to learn a spell when they level. (Fun fact, in 3.0, sorcerers could explicitly learn arcane spells not on the sorcerer spell list this way, but this seems to have been removed in RAW 3.5)


Earlier today though, I got an itch to look this up and see what others say about sorcerers being limited in this way. And there is not anything. I have not found anyone talking about it. Nobody talks about sorcerers being limited to the PHB. I found a post here on the forum referencing that section of the sorcerer class, but the snippet wasn't included. Then I looked up sorcerer both on srd.dndtools.org and d20srd.org and neither of them have the snippet.


My two questions are:
1. Am I misinterpreting what the PHB is saying? Is it meaning the spell list introduced in this book?
2. Is there some errata I'm missing on it? Why does no one talk about it, and why does nothing online have the parenthetical note on unusual sorcerer spells?

[Kurald Galain]

The spell lists in other books extend the list in the PHB, so they also count as common spells. It has become a single, very long list.

Unusual spells are e.g. a personal spell researched privately by a wizard in his tower. Wizards can learn this spell (assuming access to the books/scrolls), and via this clause, sorcerers can too. Bards appear to be out of luck in this area, but they have other strengths.

[Darastrixia]

1. Yes HEAVILY Misinterpreting. No worries, I will sight my research like a good lich.
2. It is a listed example. A lot of the SRD omits examples. Might want to double check others to make sure.
So back to question 1. I have seen threads like this and I normally don't post because of the cool banter that goes back in forth but I can show you that you are misinterpreting what was said there so let me break this down.

Sorcerer- PHB 54
A sorcerer casts arcane spells (the same type of spells available to bards and wizards), which are drawn PRIMARILY from the sorcerer/wizard spell list (page 192).
These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list (page 192), or they can be UNUSUAL spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study.

So I am going to point out this:

Spells- PHB 179
For instance, when Hennet the sorcerer becomes 2nd level, he gains an additional 0-level spell. He can pick that spell from the 0-level spells on the sorcerer and wizard spell list, or he might have learned an unusual spell from an arcane scroll or spellbook.


Learning Spells DMG 198
According to the standard rules, sorcerers and bards don’t need to study books to get their spells but just automatically gain new spells when they gain levels. However, as a variant rule you could require that each sorcerer contact an intelligent supernatural entity (anything from a lammasu to a demon) to learn new spells. Such creatures usually don’t want payment in gold but prefer to strike a bargain instead. These supernatural patrons teach their mortal friends spells in exchange for an occasional service (which could lead to an exciting adventure in its own right). Playing the patron is in the purview of the DM and, depending on the creature chosen, you should require whatever sort of bargain you see fit. The following are but a couple of examples.
• A lammasu only makes a bargain with a good-aligned sorcerer. In exchange for spells, once every other level the sorcerer must right a wrong or do some specific good deed, such as freeing a captive cleric unjustly placed in prison, building a shelter for diseased beggars, or destroying an evil temple.
• A dragon only makes a bargain with a sorcerer of the same alignment. In exchange for spells, the dragon requires payment either in magic treasure or in service. If treasure, the item must be of a value twice what it would normally cost to have an NPC cast that spell for the character (see NPC Spellcasting, page 107). If a service, every other level (typically) the sorcerer must perform some task appointed by the dragon. Usually, this service is to procure some specific object and bring it to the dragon, slay a creature the dragon considers a threat or pest, or spy on one of the dragon’s enemies and report what he learns.

So that last part there in the DMG puts it out there fairly well. True dragons can learn some divine spells as Sorcerer spells, now that Sorcerer can gain Divine spells as sorcerer spells. This is an alternative LEARNING method not an alternative on what spells can be learned so lets go to the bold above that: Lammasu. You beautiful elephant in the room no one seems to notice! THEY ONLY KNOW DIVINE SPELLS! It is so beautiful! So if anyone needs to understand the logic here let me explain. I have played for many years and this is just one of those things you have to do sometimes when you enter the rabbit hole. But rest assured, many pages away in those same books or similar situations in other books, the rules can be intuited. This seems REAL clear cut to me as a DM and there is really no room for error: If an alternative sorcerer is able to learn only divine spells, then this was supposed to be a viable thing that could happen for anything, because this is literally an official variant rule and a good one for context. If you say its reaching for sticks it really isn't, and I don't know anyone that will run a standard sorcerer looking at that and seeing they can learn both, especially with True dragons and other dragons having access to other lists on occasion for their sorcerer spells. I hope this clears this up for you and maybe someone else that is looking for this information. Sorcerer is often thought of as a c or d tier. They really have a lot more utility... and cool opportunities! Sorcerers are naturals, so a sorcerer who is like... you know everyone else does fireball let me try... ICEBALL! and it fits with figuring stuff out. Think of them like field testers where as wizards prefer a lab to perfect. Hope this helps!

[Darastrixia]

OH! To clarify, demons usually have spell like abilities, so there is precedent for it there too! and Nymphs have druid spells so there is that. Though they can learn the spell like ability when they cast it they still have to use all spell components, V, S, etc. So I would have your sorcerers get dorky with Somatic and Verbal to really irritate those Wizards that say they are doing it wrong XD. Sorcerer makes devil horns and sticks tongue out to cause fear. It can get really bad but it encourages so much rp! It also adds that reason for wizards to really dislike the disruptions sorcerers bring.

[Biggus]

My two questions are:
1. Am I misinterpreting what the PHB is saying? Is it meaning the spell list introduced in this book?
2. Is there some errata I'm missing on it? Why does no one talk about it, and why does nothing online have the parenthetical note on unusual sorcerer spells?

Looking at the books, it appears by strict RAW your interpretation is correct. However...


The spell lists in other books extend the list in the PHB, so they also count as common spells. It has become a single, very long list.

Unusual spells are e.g. a personal spell researched privately by a wizard in his tower. Wizards can learn this spell (assuming access to the books/scrolls), and via this clause, sorcerers can too. Bards appear to be out of luck in this area, but they have other strengths.

...I'm 99% certain this is the way it's intended to be interpreted. I think everyone automatically assumes this is how it's meant, which is why there's no discussion of it.

[daremetoidareyo]

You have the quotes that are sufficient to justify that the sorcerer is the only caster with blank permission to choose a spell off of the wizard/sorc spell list too though. They only primarily cast those spells, so you could argue that here or there, you can nab a Druid or other spell.

[Telonius]

From Complete Arcane, page 86:

The following section presents new spells for assassins, bards,
clerics, druids, rangers, sorcerers, and wizards. It also features
complete spell lists for the warmage and wu jen.

Page 88:

NEW SORCERER/
WIZARD SPELLS

Page 96:

ABSORPTION
Abjuration
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 9, wu jen 9

Similar wording for the spell lists and spell descriptions in basically every book after the PHB. Either the writers were completely wasting ink every time they wrote "Sorcerer," or they intended them to be learn-able by Sorcerers as well as Wizards.

[KillianHawkeye]

Also keep in mind that when the Player's Handbook refers to "the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list in this book", it was the only book at the time with any such spell list in it. So the "in this book" part is likely supposed to mean "not in the DMG or Monster Manual" rather than "not in any book that may come out later".

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Also keep in mind that when the Player's Handbook refers to "the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list in this book", it was the only book at the time with any such spell list in it. So the "in this book" part is likely supposed to mean "not in the DMG or Monster Manual" rather than "not in any book that may come out later".Only if you're talking about the 3.0 PHB. 3.5? Not so much.

[lesser_minion]

The house rules for your table include the list of sources that players are allowed to use (and which parts of those sources are allowed). Being house rules, they always win out over any written rules -- implied or otherwise -- that contradict them.

[Chronos]

Even in 3.0, they knew they were going to be writing other books with other spells eventually.

[St Fan]

That's an interesting discussion, especially the part about sorcerer learning spells from different sources.

To add to the subject, I would point out that the Dungeon Master's Guide proposes a Sorcerer variant, the Witch, which has a different spell list that includes spells that are otherwise divine, and suggests the kind of spells that can be added to the list. It's a good example of sorcerers having a different "flavor" of spells than the standard.