Rogue fighter multiclass

[herrhauptmann]

I was thinking about playing a rogue/fighter multiclass, but am a bit unsure about which subclasses work best. I also have a few questions about rogues and sneak attack.


If a rogue gets multiple attacks, only 1 gets sneak attack. What if the first attack misses but second hits, still sneak attack? Or is it only the first attack made?

Swashbuckler gets its special sneak attack only there's nobody within 5ft of myself AND my enemy right? If there's another adjacent to me, or they have an ally next to them, I don't get it?

Does sneak attack multiply on a crit now? Unlike in 3.x. if so, Champion would be pretty good. And so would Assassin since first round sneak attack is a crit.

Soulknife/psi warrior. The power dice are probably maintained separately? So a 3/3 should get 12 total dice, but they're all d6 instead of a d8. Can a psi warrior power dice be used on a soulknife ability and vice versa?

Cavalier with Unwavering Mark seems pretty useful to get advantage (and sneak attack) on your reaction. Unwavering Mark with Sentinel doesn't get me extra uses per long rest right?

Echo Knight should be good for mobility, and essentially occupying 2 spaces at once helps guarantee you'll get sneak attack on *someone.* Unleash Incarnation, could your echo get sneak attack on a target while you do it someone else?

Inquisitive. Does Insightful Fighting require I meet their Deception roll, or do I have to beat it?



Swashbuckler/samurai seems pretty good given that the samurai can create advantage on its own.

Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight, both magical versions of mundane classes. Abjuration, Evocation, Enchantment, and Illusion spells, but limited numbers known, spellslots, and lower spell levels. Lower level spells should be more useful in 5e than in 3.x, but still, seems like there would be better ways of doing this. Could be good for giving the DM fits in a one-shot though.

[solidork]

If you've got multiple attacks, only one of them can be a sneak attack but if you miss on the first the second can be a sneak attack.

No, Rakish Audacity only cares that there is only one person adjacent to you.

Yes, crits multiply all damage dice on an attack. This includes things like Sneak Attack and Divine Smite.

Yes, you'd have 12 d6 Psionic Energy dice. The way Superiority Dice you gain from things like a feat or fighting style certainly suggests that you can use your Psionic Energy dice on both classes abilities. I'd certainly let you if I was your GM.

Cavalier abilities have limited uses based off of your Strength and Constitution, so I don't think it makes for a good multiclass for a traditional Rogue.

Ties on contested rolls generally leave the situation as it was before the check, so I think you'd need to beat them.

You're still the one making the attacks, even if they're being done through your incarnation, so I think you're still limited to one on your turn.

AT+EK could work, but I'd probably hold off on doing it until later on - for example, if you want to multiclass into Rogue after EK8, then AT is a reasonable choice since it'll continue to advance your spellcasting at least a little and get you more spells known and cantrips.

You don't mention Battlemaster, but its among the most favored Rogue multiclasses. Several of the maneuvers let you attack as a reaction, enabling sneak attacks on other turns and greatly increasing your damage output.

[Unoriginal]

1. You get Sneak Attack once per turn, regardless of hoe many attacks you have, . If you have three attacks and they all hit, you can apply Sneak Attack to the first, second or third without as you wish.

That is why some Rogues like dual-wielding.

2. The Swashbuckler still has the regular conditions for Sneak Attack. So you can have Sneak Attack if your ally is within 5ft or if they're further away than 5ft.

[GooeyChewie]

You don't mention Battlemaster, but its among the most favored Rogue multiclasses. Several of the maneuvers let you attack as a reaction, enabling sneak attacks on other turns and greatly increasing your damage output.

All of my Fighter/Rogue characters have used Battlemaster. Usually as Fighter 3/Rogue X. Precise Strike helps a ton with the fact that you only get one attack on a standard turn.

[herrhauptmann]

2. The Swashbuckler still has the regular conditions for Sneak Attack. So you can have Sneak Attack if your ally is within 5ft or if they're further away than 5ft.

Sorry, I meant the enemy has their own allies within 5ft of them. I phrased it weird because I was thinking of potential 3way fights.


You don't mention Battlemaster, but its among the most favored Rogue multiclasses. Several of the maneuvers let you attack as a reaction, enabling sneak attacks on other turns and greatly increasing your damage output.
I think I skipped over battlemaster because I didn't see ways to give *myself* advantage. Thank you.

[RogueJK]

Rogues already have a way to give themselves Advantage, via Steady Aim. (Samurai's Fighting Spirit can only be used two turns per day, versus basically unlimited turns with Steady Aim. The upside of Fighting Spirit is that it applies to all attacks that turn, not just the first.)

And a Rogue/Fighter with a different Fighter subclass could generate Advantage through other means. Such as a Drow Eldritch Knight/Rogue with the Blind Fighting style, using racial and subclass spellcasting for Darkness that they can see through out to 10', thus generating Advantage from being unseen by enemies. Or an Eldritch Knight/Rogue taking the Find Familiar spell and having their owl familiar use flyby Help Action to give themselves Advantage. Or a Battlemaster/Rogue using Trip Attack to Prone enemies and then making further attacks with Advantage. Or a Rune Knight/Rogue grappling and then shoving an enemy Prone, with both Advantage and Expertise on the Athletics checks, and then holding them down there for Advantaged melee attacks. Etc.

Not to mention all the teamwork means to generate Advantage through allies' spells and abilities. D&D is a team sport!

Also keep in mind that you don't necessarily have to have Advantage to Sneak Attack, though it helps. You need Advantage OR a nearby ally. (Or an a further subclass ability like Rakish Audacity might even add an additional option.)

[stoutstien]

Avoid champion. Even with the bucket of D6s you have with sneak attack it pales in comparison to actually turning misses into hits with battle master or the general utility of a rune knight.

[RogueJK]

Avoid champion.

I agree. If you want to increase your chances of landing a critical hit, you're much better off going with some flavor of Elf race and the Elven Accuracy feat, and then taking a different Fighter subclass.

[Hairfish]

The Arcane Trickster 7 / Eldritch Knight 3 combo takes a hot minute to come fully online, but it's got a pretty fun theme once it does. See if your GM will let you get away with having a shield as your EK's stored weapon (but still have one if not) and carry a backup finesse weapon for less important fights.

Put on Mage Armor at the start of your adventuring day, use Shadow Blade as your primary weapon, and sneak attack enemies with Booming Blade or GFB. Be an elf w/ Elven Accuracy and avoid operating in bright lights to get permanent double advantage on attacks. War Caster and a Booming Blade off-turn sneak attack also makes you a very punishing tank. If you take Blind Fighting as your fighting style and have party support to turn out the lights entirely (or cast Fog Cloud yourself), many enemies will have a lot of trouble hitting you with an attack or even targeting you with a spell; for the ones that can, you get Shield. Plus you get two more cantrips for shenanigans. Mold Earth and Prestidigitation are great for burying bodies or getting rid of those troublesome bloodstains with a word and the snap of your fingers.

[herrhauptmann]

Mold Earth and Prestidigitation are great for burying bodies or getting rid of those troublesome bloodstains with a word and the snap of your fingers.

That one made me giggle, thank you.

For race, I was thinking of Bugbear actually. They get sneak as a racial skill, and their +2d6 attack at the start of a combat mimics the assassin ability. It also doesn't require flanking, advantage, or anything else. And applies to all attacks in that round. I also really love the idea of him squeezing his way into something the size of a mini fridge and shanking someone 10 feet away without penalties.

Plus there's already an elf rogue in the group and I don't want to step on his toes too much.

[CTurbo]

Swashbuckler/Battlemaster is GREAT. Between the Riposte and Brace maneuvers, you'll be able to get Sneak Attack damage with your reaction all the time.

With TWF, you don't really need more than 3 levels of Fighter. 2 attacks per round doubles your chance for Sneak Attack, and mostly Rogue levels makes your Sneak Attack hit hard.

If you really want to go Bugbear Assassin, I recommend 3-5 levels of Gloom Stalker Ranger. Archery Style is always best, but the extra 5ft reach helps make melee more competitive.

[LudicSavant]

Swashbuckler/samurai seems pretty good given that the samurai can create advantage on its own.

At the cost of your precious bonus action and subclass. Things which can already often get you Advantage anyway.

You're better off going for Swashbuckler/Battlemaster or Swashbuckler/Rune Knight. Battle master in general is good for multiclassing because it's quite toploaded, and its maneuvers (like Brace and Riposte) are helpful for getting off-turn sneak attacks, which Swashbuckler can easily capitalize on (since they qualify for sneak attacks more easily than most Rogues). The attack rider effects in general are good, too. It can also let you stack skill bonuses higher. Rune Knight makes for an excellent grappler and tank and just a couple levels of Rogue can make them even more fearsome in this regard (especially in terms of giving them more mobility), and their runes offer quite a lot of skill bonuses.

There's also the question of whether you're going primarily Rogue or primarily Fighter. I tend to consider Rogue-dipped Fighter better than Fighter-dipped Rogue. Just two levels already gets you half of the Expertise a Rogue will ever get, plus Cunning Action, and that's honestly most of the Rogue's ball-game. The rest is mostly scaling your damage and defense -- something that Fighters (and their subclasses) tend to scale better anyway.

[Unoriginal]

There's also the question of whether you're going primarily Rogue or primarily Fighter. I tend to consider Rogue-dipped Fighter better than Fighter-dipped Rogue. Just two levels already gets you half of the Expertise a Rogue will ever get, plus Cunning Action, and that's honestly most of the Rogue's ball-game. The rest is mostly scaling your damage and defense -- something that Fighters (and their subclasses) tend to scale better anyway.

Honestly I would say that regardless how they get here and what the final build looks like, to get your bangs out of your bucks you need at least 2 lvls of Rogue and 5 lvls of Fighter.

[RogueJK]

Honestly I would say that regardless how they get here and what the final build looks like, to get your bangs out of your bucks you need at least 2 lvls of Rogue and 5 lvls of Fighter.

Agreed.

Though there are edge case arguments to be made for Fighter 3/Rogue X (though the idea of focusing on TWF and tying up your BA every single turn is typically less than ideal), I think that if you're going to go Fighter 3 you might as well go Fighter 5.

Similarly, if you're going to go Rogue 2 you most often might as well go one more level and grab some subclass abilities and +1d6 Sneak Attack.


That said, I could see good reasons someone might have a Rogue 2/Fighter X or a Fighter 3/Rogue X and delay taking Rogue 3 or Fighter 4-5 until they hit some specific milestone in their other primary class, for example if they really wanted to get a second ASI or specific class/subclass ability online ASAP before going back for the rest of their dip.

[Rukelnikov]

Regarding the Psionic Warrior/Soulknife, RAW I think you can't get both 3rd lvl features since they are called the same, whichever you get first locks you out of the other.

I don't think anyone would actually run it like that though. I'd keep the pool at 2*PB and add both classes toward die size increase, since both get increases at the same levels, and it's clearly the same mechanic.

[ZeroZeroStyx]

If playing either Arcane trickster or Eldritch Knight, the Use of Booming Blade may allow to delay extra attack without losing too much damage, especially by using Cunning action to disengage after Booming Blade.

[RogueJK]

While BB+Disengage can be an effective tactic, Extra Attack on a Rogue/Fighter isn't as much about the added damage from the second attack as it is about the second chance to land your pile of Sneak Attack damage that turn if your initial attack misses. And BB doesn't help you there.

[ZeroZeroStyx]

Regarding the Psionic Warrior/Soulknife, RAW I think you can't get both 3rd lvl features since they are called the same, whichever you get first locks you out of the other.

I don't think anyone would actually run it like that though. I'd keep the pool at 2*PB and add both classes toward die size increase, since both get increases at the same levels, and it's clearly the same mechanic.

Colby at d4: D&D Deep Dive did a PsiWarrior/Soulknife build on Youtube. He mentionned that Jeremy Crawford twitted that each subclass has its own pool of psionic dice, and you can only use your soulknife psionic dice to activate soulknife features and vice versa. The DM's ruling takes precedence if different, but that seems to be the rules as written.

[Rukelnikov]

Colby at d4: D&D Deep Dive did a PsiWarrior/Soulknife build on Youtube. He mentionned that Jeremy Crawford twitted that each subclass has its own pool of psionic dice, and you can only use your soulknife psionic dice to activate soulknife features and vice versa. The DM's ruling takes precedence if different, but that seems to be the rules as written.

Hmm, well its pretty weird since it seems to be the same situation Barbarian and Monk have with both having an "unarmored defense" feature and getting one locks you out of the other. Unless an errata changed that or maybe a rules update in XGE or TCE, both subclasses feature are called the same "Psionic Power", thus the one you get first locks you out of the other RAW.

[LudicSavant]

Rogue is often a 2-3 level long class. The Soulknife is especially toploaded, with features that scale by proficiency rather than Rogue level (and also the best noncombat features of any Rogue at level 3).

[stoutstien]

Rogue is often a 2-3 level long class. The Soulknife is especially toploaded, with features that scale by proficiency rather than Rogue level (and also the best noncombat features of any Rogue at level 3).

To be fair the soul knife also has some of the better high level features...it's just better.

[ZeroZeroStyx]

Hmm, well its pretty weird since it seems to be the same situation Barbarian and Monk have with both having an "unarmored defense" feature and getting one locks you out of the other. Unless an errata changed that or maybe a rules update in XGE or TCE, both subclasses feature are called the same "Psionic Power", thus the one you get first locks you out of the other RAW.

if I understand the rules correctly, the reason a monk/barbarian cannot use both "Unarmored defense" is because "Unarmored defense" is clearly specified in the features modified by multiclassing. "Psionic power" is not listed in the features modified by multiclassing, so if my understanding of the rules is correct, there is no reason RAW that a Psi-Warrior 7/Soulknife 3 could not use Psi powers from both classes, with 10d8 (2x proficiency bonus) psionic dice for using Psi-Warrior features and 10d6 (2x proficiency bonus) psionic dice for using Soul-Knife features.

But if I wanted to play such a character, I would make sure to discuss it with my DM to know how he would rule this.

[Rukelnikov]

if I understand the rules correctly, the reason a monk/barbarian cannot use both "Unarmored defense" is because "Unarmored defense" is clearly specified in the features modified by multiclassing. "Psionic power" is not listed in the features modified by multiclassing, so if my understanding of the rules is correct, there is no reason RAW that a Psi-Warrior 7/Soulknife 3 could not use Psi powers from both classes, with 10d8 (2x proficiency bonus) psionic dice for using Psi-Warrior features and 10d6 (2x proficiency bonus) psionic dice for using Soul-Knife features.

But if I wanted to play such a character, I would make sure to discuss it with my DM to know how he would rule this.

You are probably right, I don't remember where I got the two features with the same name from.

[Psyren]

Swashbuckler/Battlemaster is GREAT. Between the Riposte and Brace maneuvers, you'll be able to get Sneak Attack damage with your reaction all the time.

With TWF, you don't really need more than 3 levels of Fighter. 2 attacks per round doubles your chance for Sneak Attack, and mostly Rogue levels makes your Sneak Attack hit hard.

While all this is definitely true - I think it's worth considering, at the margins, whether giving up 2 levels of rogue (+1d6 SA) for the additional attack (minimum +1d6+Dex if using a shortsword, or +1d8+Dex if using a rapier) from your fighter side might be worthwhile. Say if your campaign tops out at 12, you could go Battlemaster 3/Swashbuckler 9 and pick up Panache and one die to your SA - or you could go BM 5/SB 7 for the extra attack, and get three chances to trigger it on your turn instead of 2. And all of that is before considering extra per-hit damage sources like a magic weapon.

My personal preference would be Fighter 5 / Rogue X; for me, if you reverse it and stop at 3 levels of Rogue, it feels like all you're getting out of Rogue is Cunning Action and 2d6 damage once per round, at which point you might as well just be a straight Fighter and blow your bonus ASIs on Skill Expert and Mobile or something.

[CTurbo]

While all this is definitely true - I think it's worth considering, at the margins, whether giving up 2 levels of rogue (+1d6 SA) for the additional attack (minimum +1d6+Dex if using a shortsword, or +1d8+Dex if using a rapier) from your fighter side might be worthwhile. Say if your campaign tops out at 12, you could go Battlemaster 3/Swashbuckler 9 and pick up Panache and one die to your SA - or you could go BM 5/SB 7 for the extra attack, and get three chances to trigger it on your turn instead of 2. And all of that is before considering extra per-hit damage sources like a magic weapon.

My personal preference would be Fighter 5 / Rogue X; for me, if you reverse it and stop at 3 levels of Rogue, it feels like all you're getting out of Rogue is Cunning Action and 2d6 damage once per round, at which point you might as well just be a straight Fighter and blow your bonus ASIs on Skill Expert and Mobile or something.

I think maybe you misunderstood me. I think my argument was-

Fighter 3/Rogue 17 vs Fighter 5/Rogue 15

Both are very viable options.


I don't think I'd consider a 3 level Rogue dip on a Fighter unless it fit a specific character concept.

[Psyren]

I think maybe you misunderstood me. I think my argument was-

Fighter 3/Rogue 17 vs Fighter 5/Rogue 15

Both are very viable options.

I know that's what you meant :smallsmile: I was just saying that the latter is probably superior from a damage standpoint without losing much elsewhere. They're indeed both viable.

[greenstone]

If a rogue gets multiple attacks, only 1 gets sneak attack. What if the first attack misses but second hits, still sneak attack? Or is it only the first attack made?

When you hit, you decide whether or not to apply Sneak Attack damage to the hit. You can only use it once per turn, so if you hit on your first attack you have to choose to apply it now or wait until the next attack.


Swashbuckler gets its special sneak attack only there's nobody within 5ft of myself AND my enemy right?

Just you. It doesn't matter if your foe has enemies or friends adjacent to them, all that matters is that there is one and only one creature (your target) within 5ft of you.

[Yakk]

I have done the math on Champion 5/Rogue 7+ and it actually works. Crossbow Expert, SharpShooter, Archery Style, 19-20 crit range, -3/+10 to hit.

19% crit range per swing means 47% crit rate/turn. You "crit fish" in that you save your sneak attack for a crit even if you hit.

With a +1 hand crossbow and +1 bolts and 20 dex +8 to hit for 1d6+17 damage and 4d6 sneak attack.

Against 16 AC has a 88% hit chance and 19% crit chance. You land 2.64 hits (54.12), of which 0.57 are crits (2.0), and sneak attack crit 47% sneak attack crit (13.2) and 45% sneak attack hit (6.3) for 75.6 DPR.

And each 2 additional levels of Rogue adds 4.9 DPR, as each d6 of sneak attack does 1.39d6 of damage per round on average.

In comparison, an arcane trickster booming blade flametongue rapier rogue with advantage at level 12 does 3d8+8d6+5 per hit = 46.5 (+9 to hit). Against AC 16, 91% hit chance 10% crit chance for about 46.5 DPR. 5 levels adds 11.5 per-hit damage, or about a bit under 2.5 per level, half that of the champion/rogue.

[Silly Name]

if I understand the rules correctly, the reason a monk/barbarian cannot use both "Unarmored defense" is because "Unarmored defense" is clearly specified in the features modified by multiclassing.

Apart from this, we also have the rule of thumb that AC calculations don't stack.

Unarmored Defense, both the Barbarian and the Monk one, aren't bonuses to AC - they're different AC calculations.


When the game gives you more than one way to calculate your Armor Class, you can use only one of them. You choose the one to use. For example, if you have the loxodon's Natural Armor trait and the monk's Unarmored Defense feature, you don't mix them together. Instead, you choose which one determines your AC.

I presume the multiclassing rules regarding Unarmored Defense are meant to simplify this general rule - because even if you could have multiple sources of Unarmoured Defense, you could only use one - (it does take away some flexibility, though), but such interactions can theoretically happen in the base game, such as casting Mage Armor on a Monk.

[stoutstien]

I have done the math on Champion 5/Rogue 7+ and it actually works. Crossbow Expert, SharpShooter, Archery Style, 19-20 crit range, -3/+10 to hit.

19% crit range per swing means 47% crit rate/turn. You "crit fish" in that you save your sneak attack for a crit even if you hit.

With a +1 hand crossbow and +1 bolts and 20 dex +8 to hit for 1d6+17 damage and 4d6 sneak attack.

Against 16 AC has a 88% hit chance and 19% crit chance. You land 2.64 hits (54.12), of which 0.57 are crits (2.0), and sneak attack crit 47% sneak attack crit (13.2) and 45% sneak attack hit (6.3) for 75.6 DPR.

And each 2 additional levels of Rogue adds 4.9 DPR, as each d6 of sneak attack does 1.39d6 of damage per round on average.

In comparison, an arcane trickster booming blade flametongue rapier rogue with advantage at level 12 does 3d8+8d6+5 per hit = 46.5 (+9 to hit). Against AC 16, 91% hit chance 10% crit chance for about 46.5 DPR. 5 levels adds 11.5 per-hit damage, or about a bit under 2.5 per level, half that of the champion/rogue.

Why would you include a bunch of factors that don't interact with critical hits if you're trying to determine the value of said critical Hits?
If you wanted a fair comparison you would compare it to another fighter rogue multi-class that's not champion rather than some other random build with a subpar magic item.

[crabwizard77]

Swashbuckler/Battlemaster is GREAT. Between the Riposte and Brace maneuvers, you'll be able to get Sneak Attack damage with your reaction all the time.

With TWF, you don't really need more than 3 levels of Fighter. 2 attacks per round doubles your chance for Sneak Attack, and mostly Rogue levels makes your Sneak Attack hit hard.

If you really want to go Bugbear Assassin, I recommend 3-5 levels of Gloom Stalker Ranger. Archery Style is always best, but the extra 5ft reach helps make melee more competitive.

I agree about swashbuckler/battlemaster. I am running a game, and one of my players decided to go this route. They have really enjoyed it.