Versatile Weapon Feat

[Kessel]

there are many UA and homebrew feats out there, at one point I saw one that I can't seem to find again.

does anyone know of a feat, that if you are weilding only a versatile weapon you can attempt a shove or grapple as a bonus action?

thanks.

[JonBeowulf]

I found these, but none of them have a BA grapple/shove:

https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/3v7cp2/versatile_weapon_master_feat/?rdt=56316
https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-M0Z_ehFjBh87nRFo2EU
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Versatile_Combatant_(5e_Feat)


along with a few others that were just weird.

I don't see anything wrong with "While wielding a versatile weapon in one hand, you may use a Bonus Action to attempt a grapple or shove any time during your turn."

[Kessel]

total agreement, there are more than a few weird ones out there.

the gmbinder one that you found was a new to me, thanks for that and the others.

a feat that caters to versatile weapons and also weilding while grappling? heck ya!

my DM and I were thinking:
-While wielding a versatile weapon in one hand, you may use a Bonus Action to attempt a grapple or shove any time during your turn.
-add one to Dex or Str.
But he thought it might be too strong, so I was looking for the source.

thanks for the assist!

[Intregus182]

my DM and I were thinking:
-While wielding a versatile weapon in one hand, you may use a Bonus Action to attempt a grapple or shove any time during your turn.
-add one to Dex or Str.
But he thought it might be too strong, so I was looking for the source.

thanks for the assist!

Does this even need to be a feat?

If you're wanting to wield a versatile weapon in 1 hand and keep your other hand free so you can grapple or shove as a BA that should just be part of the rules. I wouldn't require a feat at all.

Your not getting more damage from a 2 hander you're not getting AC from a shield.....being able to grapple or shove seems like that should be the entire benefit for wielding a 1 handed weapon with nothing in your office hand.

But that's me.

[JonBeowulf]

Does this even need to be a feat?

If you're wanting to wield a versatile weapon in 1 hand and keep your other hand free so you can grapple or shove as a BA that should just be part of the rules. I wouldn't require a feat at all.

Your not getting more damage from a 2 hander you're not getting AC from a shield.....being able to grapple or shove seems like that should be the entire benefit for wielding a 1 handed weapon with nothing in your office hand.

But that's me.
Yeah, re-reading what I wrote I'm inclined to agree that it's pretty weak for a feat. Not sure I like the +1 STR/DEX though... that does seem pretty strong. Maybe +1 AC until your next turn?

[animewatcha]

Does this even need to be a feat?

If you're wanting to wield a versatile weapon in 1 hand and keep your other hand free so you can grapple or shove as a BA that should just be part of the rules. I wouldn't require a feat at all.

Your not getting more damage from a 2 hander you're not getting AC from a shield.....being able to grapple or shove seems like that should be the entire benefit for wielding a 1 handed weapon with nothing in your office hand.

But that's me.

I Coulda sworn that you can go from 2-hand to 1-hand/free hand as a free action.

[Intregus182]

I Coulda sworn that you can go from 2-hand to 1-hand/free hand as a free action.

Ya you can but you can't wield a 2 handed weapon with 1 hand.

The way I see it weilding a 1 handed weapon and having a free hand vs dual wielding, holding a shield or using a 2hander is pretty much a straight nerf.

What I'm saying is if your wielding a 1 handed weapon then you should be able to use your BA to grapple or shove with your free hand, something I'd say a wielding a 2 handed weapon would preclude you from doing.

This gives that concept a place to live and I don't think this is that strong unless one is specifically trying to cheese it in which case the problem is the player is trying to specifically do something they probably shouldn't be doing.

[da newt]

Normally you can't use a BA to make an attack - shove/grapple UNLESS your class/subclass or a feat allows you to do so - the exception being 2wf but it limits you to a simple attack (no shove/grapple).

If you were to homebrew that any creature with an open hand can BA shove/grapple that would greatly increase the action economy of everyone (PCs, good guys, and bad guys) and could cause some balance issues / stepping on the toes of feats like shield master and classes like monk etc.

On the other hand (I'm so punny), martials could use a little boost and the added strategy options could be fun ...

But then again, this could be exploited. The raging Barbarian gets to start every turn w/ a shove prone attempt at ADV (lets toss in a rogue dip for athletics expertise too) and then gets to make all attacks at ADV without any of the drawbacks of reckless, your melee buddies can jump in too and the prone guy has to spend half his movement just to get up. This might be too much.

It should probably be a fighting style or feat or something so there is a cost to balance things out, or limit the BA to a shove 5' or grapple (no shove prone allowed).

[Kessel]

it's hard to imagine a way to cheese it, there is nothing to support versatile weapon game play.

-if you're going to use two hands on a weapon, folks go with something that can be feat supported: GWM and/or PAM - there's nothing for versatile.

-I don't think there are any fighting styles or subclass features that give versatile weapons a bump.

-if you plan to grapple and wish to hold a weapon, back and forthing between one and two hands, it's far from optimal and you lose any bonus action options provided by feats.

-maybe a combination of Shield Master and Tavern Brawler for a grapple build... but that takes versatile out of it all together.

are versatile a holdover from earlier editions that just got ignored?

[JonBeowulf]

TBH, I only take advantage of the versatile property when I think I don't need the AC buff and drop the shield before rushing in to get the enemy's face. Otherwise I'm just sword & board. I think giving me a reason to permanently drop the shield is a good thing.

[Theodoxus]

are versatile a holdover from earlier editions that just got ignored?

Earlier editions had 'hand and a half' weapons, that let you go either way, but the mechanics were a little different. In 3rd edition, for instance, using a weapon two handed multiplied the strength bonus to damage you got by 1.5. So, an 18 Str fighter would deal +6 Damage when using a longsword two handed. Ultimately, though, I think increasing the die size by one is a smidge less math for essentially the same bonus (kind of like rolling all sorts of tiny bonuses into Advantage - there are pros and cons to both systems).

I don't recall how/if versatile weapons worked in 4th edition.

[Kessel]

Earlier editions had 'hand and a half' weapons, that let you go either way, but the mechanics were a little different. In 3rd edition, for instance, using a weapon two handed multiplied the strength bonus to damage you got by 1.5. So, an 18 Str fighter would deal +6 Damage when using a longsword two handed. Ultimately, though, I think increasing the die size by one is a smidge less math for essentially the same bonus (kind of like rolling all sorts of tiny bonuses into Advantage - there are pros and cons to both systems).

I don't recall how/if versatile weapons worked in 4th edition.

thank you.

[da newt]

With the dueling FS (+2 dam when wielding a weapon in one hand and no other weapon), the versatile weapon property is worse than using 2 hands on a versatile weapon even before you add in the option to add a shield to the other hand. They are mostly pointless for martial PCs (except monk for early levels).

quarterstaff, spear, battleaxe, long-sword, trident, war-hammer - I think those are all the versatile weapons, but why aren't all the one handed non-finesse weapons versatile?

IMO, it would be a fine house rule to allow anyone w/ a free hand to use a BA to grapple or shove 5', but the BA shove prone is too much to give to everyone for free.

[Intregus182]

Normally you can't use a BA to make an attack - shove/grapple UNLESS your class/subclass or a feat allows you to do so - the exception being 2wf but it limits you to a simple attack (no shove/grapple).

If you were to homebrew that any creature with an open hand can BA shove/grapple that would greatly increase the action economy of everyone (PCs, good guys, and bad guys) and could cause some balance issues / stepping on the toes of feats like shield master and classes like monk etc.

On the other hand (I'm so punny), martials could use a little boost and the added strategy options could be fun ...

But then again, this could be exploited. The raging Barbarian gets to start every turn w/ a shove prone attempt at ADV (lets toss in a rogue dip for athletics expertise too) and then gets to make all attacks at ADV without any of the drawbacks of reckless, your melee buddies can jump in too and the prone guy has to spend half his movement just to get up. This might be too much.

It should probably be a fighting style or feat or something so there is a cost to balance things out, or limit the BA to a shove 5' or grapple (no shove prone allowed).


With the dueling FS (+2 dam when wielding a weapon in one hand and no other weapon), the versatile weapon property is worse than using 2 hands on a versatile weapon even before you add in the option to add a shield to the other hand. They are mostly pointless for martial PCs (except monk for early levels).

quarterstaff, spear, battleaxe, long-sword, trident, war-hammer - I think those are all the versatile weapons, but why aren't all the one handed non-finesse weapons versatile?

IMO, it would be a fine house rule to allow anyone w/ a free hand to use a BA to grapple or shove 5', but the BA shove prone is too much to give to everyone for free.[/QUOTE

I see what you're saying I just don't think the barbarian in your example trying to shove or knock prone as.a BA is better off doing that vs the options currently available to the barbarian.

I could be wrong though.

[QUOTE=Kessel;25912704]it's hard to imagine a way to cheese it, there is nothing to support versatile weapon game play.

-if you're going to use two hands on a weapon, folks go with something that can be feat supported: GWM and/or PAM - there's nothing for versatile.

-I don't think there are any fighting styles or subclass features that give versatile weapons a bump.

-if you plan to grapple and wish to hold a weapon, back and forthing between one and two hands, it's far from optimal and you lose any bonus action options provided by feats.

-maybe a combination of Shield Master and Tavern Brawler for a grapple build... but that takes versatile out of it all together.

are versatile a holdover from earlier editions that just got ignored?

I'd say just run it without it being a feat or fighting style and see how it goes.

In this specific instance it's really only affecting your table and I don't think this is that strong at all.

I've been playing and DMing 5e since the play test and I just can't think of anything that would cause this to be better or stronger than anything that's currently available to martials.

So have fun with this And report back later how it went and what you learned!

[tKUUNK]

total agreement, there are more than a few weird ones out there.

the gmbinder one that you found was a new to me, thanks for that and the others.

a feat that caters to versatile weapons and also weilding while grappling? heck ya!

my DM and I were thinking:
-While wielding a versatile weapon in one hand, you may use a Bonus Action to attempt a grapple or shove any time during your turn.
-add one to Dex or Str.
But he thought it might be too strong, so I was looking for the source.

thanks for the assist!

Since it's for your own game, this doesn't seem too out of control. You could reduce the power slightly by saying something like "while wielding a versatile weapon in one hand (and nothing in the off-hand), any time you successfully shove or grapple as part of your Attack action, you may make an additional weapon attack against the same target using your bonus action".

And I dunno, since it's a feat for versatile weapons, why not cross out the "add one to dex or str" line and add a benefit while using the weapon two-handed? Even if it's something simple like +1 to attack and damage rolls while wielding a versatile weapon with both hands. Or "You use the full kinetic force of your body, overwhelming foes with your swiftness. You may use your bonus action to grant yourself advantage on your next attack roll while wielding a versatile weapon two-handed". Just some example ideas.

[da newt]

What BAs compete with a free hand shove prone for a barbarian or other ST based melee PC?

The first round BA rage is certainly the high priority, but what else have they got?

VS how beneficial will a free BA shove prone be? W/ athletics prof and ADV on shove rolls they will often win and get ADV on all of their subsequent attacks (and other party members who act before the foe) and the foe will have to burn 1/2 movement to stand - sure a barb could decide to reckless for ADV but then everyone gets ADV to hit them too.

[Unoriginal]

are versatile a holdover from earlier editions that just got ignored?


Earlier editions had 'hand and a half' weapons, that let you go either way, but the mechanics were a little different. In 3rd edition, for instance, using a weapon two handed multiplied the strength bonus to damage you got by 1.5. So, an 18 Str fighter would deal +6 Damage when using a longsword two handed. Ultimately, though, I think increasing the die size by one is a smidge less math for essentially the same bonus (kind of like rolling all sorts of tiny bonuses into Advantage - there are pros and cons to both systems).

IIRC, all the "hand and a half" weapons in 3.X were Exotic weapons, meaning you needed a feat to use them one-handed. The bastard sword, which is the one I recall, had a damage output in-between the longsword's and the greatsword's

So basically you spent a feat in exchange for slightly more damage than a regular one-hand-weapon.

So it's less that versatile weapons were ignored and more that they were made usable without requirement.