(changed) Hiding with a light source

[Fixer]

That almost sounds like a movie title....

This thread is about Incarnum. Most people probably read that and get that blah taste in your mouth, the way some do with psionics and/or Tome of Battle.

The reason I, personally, am opening this thread is because I have a rogue build with the Mantle of Flame soulmeld.
"You shape incarnum into a cloak of wispy blue flame. The cloak covers your arms and almost closes in front of you, where a band of fire crosses over your heart to connect the cloak's two edges. The fire does not harm you, though it keeps you as warm and dry as any heavy cloak in cold or rainy weather." The picture seems to indicate fire being everywhere around the character but that's artist interpretation, not RAW. The part that is RAW that concerns me is:
The mantle of flame grants shadowy illumination in your space, but provides no further lighting.
Now, ignoring the picture (which could very well be an incarnum user having bound the Mantle of Flame to their Shoulders Chakra and using it to deal AoE damage), how much light does this thing shed and how badly would it mess with the Hide skill? There is no mention in the RAW that it affects Hide checks nor is the amount of light it sheds equal to that of a candle (which provides a 5 foot radius of shadowy illumination, which is larger).

[Kyeudo]

It wouldn't affect the Hide skill in anything less than full darkness. In shadowy illumination or bright illumination, it would just be bright blue. In darkness, its like spotting a lit candle in the dark.

[Fixer]

It wouldn't affect the Hide skill in anything less than full darkness. In shadowy illumination or bright illumination, it would just be bright blue. In darkness, its like spotting a lit candle in the dark.
See, but wouldn't part of the Hide skill include hiding such a miniscule light source in complete darkness?

Bright Lighting: The mantle isn't bright enough to affect dice rolls.
Shadowy Light: Again, not bright enough to affect dice rolls.
Complete Darkness: Creatures without darkvision are completely blind but would get a spot check to try to notice the miniscule light from the mantle. (Thus, they only get a spot check against this particular character in complete darkness when they wouldn't normally even be able to attempt one.) Creatures with darkvision wouldn't get any additional benefits because the light wouldn't be enough to grant a bonus besides their normal spot check.

*EDIT*
I just noticed that nowhere in the rules (that I can find) that states that a character wielding a torch has any difficulty hiding if they can somehow obtain concealment, cover, or make a successful feint check.
In an area of bright light, all characters can see clearly. A creature can’t hide in an area of bright light unless it is invisible or has cover.

In an area of shadowy illumination, a character can see dimly. Creatures within this area have concealment relative to that character. A creature in an area of shadowy illumination can make a Hide check to conceal itself.

In areas of darkness, creatures without darkvision are effectively blinded. In addition to the obvious effects, a blinded creature has a 50% miss chance in combat (all opponents have total concealment), loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, takes a -2 penalty to AC, moves at half speed, and takes a -4 penalty on Search checks and most Strength and Dexterity-based skill checks.

Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light and of shadowy illumination for such characters.

Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can’t hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover.

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Creating a Diversion to Hide
You can use the Bluff skill to help you hide. A successful Bluff check gives you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Hide check while people are aware of you. This usage does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

[ryuteki]

I just noticed that nowhere in the rules (that I can find) that states that a character wielding a torch has any difficulty hiding

I'd say that is because you can NOT hide with a light source that provides more ambient light than the surroundings. Go ahead and picture someone in the woods at night with a flashlight trying to hide.

[KIDS]

I think that it would work like this:
(Assumption: The mantle grants shadowy illumination)

a) Daylight or inner radius of light source such as Sunrod or Torch: overlaps with the lighting; it's still fully lighted and thus you can't hide in there without cover or something
b) Shadowy illumination, normal night or outer radius of a light source: overlaps with the dim light; you have concealment and can hide normally, just as you would without the mantle in this case.
c) Complete darkness/no illumination, moon-veiled night or dungeon without a light source; the mantle radiates shadowy illumination. Since you have concealment you can hide (as in see above), but enemies do see where the source of shadowy illumination originates from.

Hope that was of some help!

[Townopolis]

This is how I see it.

You are hidden, congratulations. However, your square is lit, although dimly. Unless you're under a blanket or in a barrel or something similar, anyone passing by will see that your square is lit. They won't see you, just that there's some light source.

If this is already explained, there is a torch overhead or a magical light nearby for example, this won't draw any attention. However, if you're in an otherwise dark room and there is no reason for a light to be there, someone may come poking around.

Yes, you hide normally
Yes, your square is lit

it's a matter of how NPCs react to the mysterious light.

[Fixer]

What skill would one use to hide a light source? I would think you could attempt to use the Hide skill to attempt to hide a light source (especially if you don't actually need it).

[Doomsy]

I think you have more problems than just hiding the light source, depending on the type. If it is something with a light spell, etc, cast on it, you could just cover it with something heavy, no light. Or turn it off for a moment, if you can without breaking the effect.

If it is actually on fire, extinguishing it is the only option I can think of. I think there is a lantern in the common items section of either the PHB or the DMG (I can't remember which and can't check right now) that basically can be stealthed so people won't notice the light so easy - clever construction, shutters, and light focusing, etc.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

It's the shuttered lantern, and for the cloak, I suggest you wear something over it, otherwise logically you should be visible. Turn off all the lights and turn on a dim lamp and see if you can hit it.

[Townopolis]

I'd use some sort of vague houserule involving line-of-sight, total cover, and possibly having to completely stifle your light source. However, for a skill check.

(the following is also a houserule, in case you couldn't tell)
If it's a large, worn light source, it's part of your hide check, imposing a -2 or -4 on the check.

If it's a handheld object, it would be a seperate sleight of hand check.

Complications on either if the item in question is an open flame.

[Fixer]

Again, people are thinking this cloak is as bright as a torch or lantern.

This cloak puts out less light than a match or candle. Surely that would be easy enough to hide without a penalty (especially since there is none listed under the description).

Also, this 'flame' doesn't hurt the wearer at all. It is made out of souls bent on vengeance so the wearer should be able to suppress them for a short period, if nothing else.

[Riffington]

In general, if you want to hide with a torch or lantern, you just need a Survival check (DC 5) to put the thing out. It then ceases to be a light source. Otherwise, you need total concealment (and thus don't need a hide check to hide anyway).

In this case, you've had the answer a few times already: just make sure the ambient light is at least as much as this thing's light.

If you're in a cave, you will be easily visible from a distance. If you have a bit of moonlight, you'll be fine.

You know why there aren't rules for using Hide with a torch? Same reason there aren't rules for Move Silently while singing.