Question about Fiend Folio's Fiendish Grafts and Symbionts on a Dread Necromancer

[Oxylepy]

So this is for 3.5e and both of the rules read as such:


When a character with fiendish (grafts/symbionts) interacts with nonevil NPCs, a -6 circumstance penalty is applied on all Charisma-based checks (Diplomacy, Bluff, and so on). This penalty applies even if the NPC is unaware of the graft's/symbiont's presence, since it reflects the subtle twisting of the host's personality.

Lets say I have the Ghostly Visage as a familiar, Feathered Wings and the Fast Leg (although now I wonder what would happen if I had multiple Fast Legs)


Would I take a -6, -12, or -18 to Charisma based checks when interacting with nonevil NPCs?
Would the penalty apply to Charisma Checks used in spells (Command Undead on a non-evil undead, Planar Binding), and the Charisma Check used for Rebuke Undead (in the odd circumstance where the roll is opposed or the undead aren't evil)



I can conjecture about RAI all day (as generally I'd think this was a Reaction Adjustment) and I can totally see it being any of those penalties (I think -12 seems right, though).
I generally just want to figure out if this will bone me as a Dread Necromancer (the second question)

Bonus question: If I had the grafts before becoming a lich and came back via phylactery, how would you rule it? Lose them, come back with them, or what?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Multiple bonuses or penalties of the same type (circumstance) or from the same source (having the thing) don't stack.

The ghostly visage can conceal itself. You could likely get a Hat of Disguise or similar to hide the other things, and take no penalty at all.

[Oxylepy]

Multiple bonuses or penalties of the same type (circumstance) or from the same source (having the thing) don't stack.

The ghostly visage can conceal itself. You could likely get a Hat of Disguise or similar to hide the other things, and take no penalty at all.

I'll update it to include the rest of the pertinent portion of the ability, definitely my bad for cutting it out (they don't need to know about the grafts/symbionts).

The circumstance bonuses (per circumstance bonuses) stack unless they are from the same source, so if we take the pluralization of the symbiont/graft that limits it to -12 or -6 (as they may be different sources). I should also throw in that I had condensed the two entries into one (as the only difference between them is if it's a symbiont or a graft in the copy pasted entries)

Thank you for the reply, though!

[Cortillaen]

From a "common English" perspective, the use of plural in cases like this usually means "one or more of the thing" rather than "more than one". For example, a sign on a government building reading "You may not bring weapons on the premises" would not be construed as allowing you to bring a single weapon. However, the penalties for grafts and symbionts are described in different places, and each mentions only one or the other. I interpret this as meaning you take a -6 for having one or more grafts and a separate -6 for having one or more symbionts.

On the bonus question, the use of "host" suggests to me that they are not actually a part of you and thus would not be regenerated with your new body any more than equipment would. This is also supported by the rules saying grafts "function very much like magic items" and symbionts "are complete creatures". I could easily see some DMs ruling the other way, though.

[Oxylepy]

On the bonus question, the use of "host" suggests to me that they are not actually a part of you and thus would not be regenerated with your new body any more than equipment would.

I definitely agree and feel their way of being part of you would prohibit them from coming with you. But the grafts I am iffy on. On one end it could be a part of the character, on another end it could be little more than an attachment on par with stapling a shield to your arm.

The former part of your reply, yeah 100% same page.

Thank you for the reply! This is making me feel heard on my paranoia, lol

[Chronos]

If, after regenerating, you can go find your old body, the symbionts and grafts will still be there (unless the do-gooding adventurers who offed you did something about them), and you could re-attach them. Arguably, the Ghostly Visage might come with you automatically, if you got it as a familiar, but even that one's iffy, because there's nothing that says that your familiar must bond with you specifically: It can be good tactics to instead have it bond with your Big Dumb Fighter ally to make him immune to mind-effecting, or to use it to hostilely bond to enemies to force ego contests to control them, and if your familiar is riding someone else when you got ganked, there's no reason they wouldn't keep doing so.

[Crake]

Regarding what the penalty actually applies to, it says checks “when interacting with” and then goes on to list a bunch of social skills, so my interpretation of that would be that the penalty only applies to social interactions. Personally, I wouldnt include intimidate on that list, but I would include the cha check to influence a charmed person. Rebuking/planar binding etc wouldnt be affected either imo, as those are representative if ego checks, not attempts to influence through guile

[Feantar]

Coming late to the party but I'll agree with other posters: the penalty doesn't apply twice, thrice etc, because the penalty isn't of the graft, it's a binary checkbox of "does this character have fiendish grafts/symbionts? If yes -6, if no nothing". That said, I'm confused on the mention of the visage - it's not a fiendish symbiont.



The ghostly visage can conceal itself. You could likely get a Hat of Disguise or similar to hide the other things, and take no penalty at all.

This applies to the visage, but it doesn't apply to the rest - it's not the fact that one can see the symbionts, it's that they change your personality (This penalty applies even if the NPC is unaware of the graft's/symbiont's presence, since it reflects the subtle twisting of the host's personality).

[Chronos]

That said, I'm confused on the mention of the visage - it's not a fiendish symbiont.
Where is it listed in your Fiend Folio, then?

[Feantar]

Where is it listed in your Fiend Folio, then?

Yeah, you're right, I thought it was reprinted in Libris Mortis without the fiendish baggage for some reason (because it's undead, not outsider like all other fiendish ones). It's a fiendish symbiont, my bad. :smallredface:

[Bohandas]

Where is it listed in your Fiend Folio, then?

It's a symbiont, but it's undead, not an outsider

[Crake]

It's a symbiont, but it's undead, not an outsider

Its a category of symbionts, ghostly visage is listed under it, the creature’s type is not relevant

[Bohandas]

I had always just interpretec the visage as being a remainder rather than part of either group

[Oxylepy]

Coming late to the party but I'll agree with other posters: the penalty doesn't apply twice, thrice etc, because the penalty isn't of the graft, it's a binary checkbox of "does this character have fiendish grafts/symbionts? If yes -6, if no nothing".[/I].

Okay, I will throw in that this was me condensing two different entries with copy pasted text with only the word symbiont and graft altered.
So applying it twice is definitely a reasonable standpoint, once for the graft, once for the symbiont, because while the rules are essentially the same, they are separate rules and it would be two separate circumstance penalties.
But only once is also reasonable as the conceptual basis for both of them is VERY much the same, you have something Fiendish about you, ergo you have this penalty.

[glass]

The circumstance bonuses (per circumstance bonuses) stack unless they are from the same source, so if we take the pluralization of the symbiont/graft that limits it to -12 or -6 (as they may be different sources).Not quite; circumstance bonuses stack if they arise from different circumstances. Having one or more symbionts is clearly one circumstance (for the reasons Cortillaen explained), so one lot of the penalty. I don't know enough about grafts and symbionts to say for sure whether they are distinct enough to be separate circumstances: If they are, -12, if not -6. My guess would be the latter.