Pathfinder Remastered eliminated ability scores

[redking]

Pathfinder Remastered eliminated ability scores, replacing them with the ability modifiers, which makes a lot of sense. The ability scores are abstractions, not functional. If we did this for an updated version of 3.5 (3.75?), the Elite Array in terms of modifiers would be: [+2, +2, +1, +1, 0, -1]. Magical items would offer an enhancement bonus of +1 modifier or more (no change here since magical items had at +2, +4 and so on to ability scores in general).

This just seems like a more natural and streamlined way to handle it.

[Cortillaen]

The trouble with applying that to 3.5/Pf1 is those systems have common things that interact with ability scores directly and in odd increments. You'd have to flatten all of that, which would have some side-effects. What do rolling scores or point-buy look like? Do you only increase an ability score every 8 levels now? Do you make all the d4 and d6 ability damage/drain effects d2 and d3? Even then, you've erased a lot of outcomes where one character would be less affected by an odd-number reduction than another character. What do you do with the max +5 inherent bonus to ability scores? Things like carrying capacity that actually use the raw score would get flattened and have bigger jumps, which could be awkward (I think I saw a research subsystem somewhere that similarly used raw scores, too).

Overall, every change to be "more natural and streamlined" is erasing granularity and options. It's a sliding scale of tradeoffs, not an "X is objectively better than Y". Some people will like it, some won't. I suspect most people still playing 3.5/Pf1 lean towards the latter.

[Tzardok]

Also, how would the effect of ability damage/drain reducing an ability to 0 look like in that system? Can a shadow still kill people, and if yes, when?

[Kurald Galain]

Can a shadow still kill people, and if yes, when?
In PF2, a shadow's strength drain caps at -4, and cannot kill anyone. The shadow can kill people only by dealing hit point damage.

[Thunder999]

2e was basically designed with only modifiers from the start, they just kept the scores because people complained about the idea of removing them and back at the start of 2e they wanted to convert as many 1e players as they could (though now I believe the playerbase has more new players and 5e converts, which is working out just fine for Paizo)

2e has no ability damage, just various status conditions that apply penalties to things that are linked to an ability score (one each for the physical stats and then a single condition for all mental stuff) with no mechanic for killing people with them or hard cap (though in practice I don't think it's possible to get any conditon in that game above a value of 4)

PF1e and 3.5 still very much use actual scores and there's no inherent benefit to removing them.
Subtract 10 and half is not exactly a complicated setup.

[Haggo]

The trouble with applying that to 3.5/Pf1 is those systems have common things that interact with ability scores directly and in odd increments. You'd have to flatten all of that, which would have some side-effects. What do rolling scores or point-buy look like? Do you only increase an ability score every 8 levels now? Do you make all the d4 and d6 ability damage/drain effects d2 and d3? Even then, you've erased a lot of outcomes where one character would be less affected by an odd-number reduction than another character. What do you do with the max +5 inherent bonus to ability scores? Things like carrying capacity that actually use the raw score would get flattened and have bigger jumps, which could be awkward (I think I saw a research subsystem somewhere that similarly used raw scores, too).

Overall, every change to be "more natural and streamlined" is erasing granularity and options. It's a sliding scale of tradeoffs, not an "X is objectively better than Y". Some people will like it, some won't. I suspect most people still playing 3.5/Pf1 lean towards the latter.

Carrying capacity for pf2 always used modifiers, rolling for stats basically only existed as a blurb and is never expected as anything more than a houserule and there's no stat drain--i think they just inflict a str penalty

[Psyren]

Do they have anything that interacts with score still? If not, switching to modifiers only makes sense, especially if the goal is to distance themselves from the OGL as much as possible.

[Cortillaen]

Carrying capacity for pf2 always used modifiers, rolling for stats basically only existed as a blurb and is never expected as anything more than a houserule and there's no stat drain--i think they just inflict a str penalty
OP discussed doing it for D&D 3.5, and my post clearly addresses that idea, not anything to do with Pf2.

[redking]

What do rolling scores or point-buy look like? Do you only increase an ability score every 8 levels now?

Rather easily, actually. Here is a point buy calculator for ability modifiers that I made using HTML and JavaScript. Just copy and paste it, and put it in a text document that you save as an html file to try it out.

<!DOCTYPE html>
<html lang="en">
<head>
<meta charset="UTF-8">
<meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width, initial-scale=1.0">
<title>Ability Score Buy Calculator</title>
<script>
// Corrected and updated cost mapping for each modifier
const costTable = {
"-1": 0,
"-0.5": 1,
"0": 2,
"0 (+0.5)": 3,
"1": 4,
"1 (+0.5)": 5,
"2": 6,
"2 (+0.5)": 8,
"3": 10,
"3 (+0.5)": 13,
"4": 16
};

function calculateCost() {
let totalCost = 0;

// Calculate the total cost
document.querySelectorAll('.ability-select').forEach(select => {
const modifierKey = select.value;
totalCost += costTable[modifierKey];
});

// Display the total cost
document.getElementById('totalCost').textContent = totalCost;
}

function generateOptions(selectElement) {
const options = ["-1", "-0.5", "0", "0 (+0.5)", "1", "1 (+0.5)", "2", "2 (+0.5)", "3", "3 (+0.5)", "4"];
options.forEach(option => {
const opt = document.createElement('option');
opt.value = option;
opt.textContent = option;
selectElement.appendChild(opt);
});
}

window.onload = function() {
// Generate options for each select element
document.querySelectorAll('.ability-select').forEach(select => {
generateOptions(select);
select.addEventListener('change', calculateCost);
});
};
</script>
</head>
<body>
<h2>Ability Score Buy Calculator</h2>
<div>
<label>Strength: </label>
<select class="ability-select"></select>
</div>
<div>
<label>Dexterity: </label>
<select class="ability-select"></select>
</div>
<div>
<label>Constitution: </label>
<select class="ability-select"></select>
</div>
<div>
<label>Intelligence: </label>
<select class="ability-select"></select>
</div>
<div>
<label>Wisdom: </label>
<select class="ability-select"></select>
</div>
<div>
<label>Charisma: </label>
<select class="ability-select"></select>
</div>
<div>
<label>Total Cost: </label>
<span id="totalCost">0</span>
</div>
</body>
</html>


It maps directly to the ability scores. In terms of getting ability scores through leveling up, each level would confer 0.25 of a modifier that you can assign to any ability score. So for example, an ability score of 15 is +2 (0.5). The fraction part is non functional as a fraction. If a character gained a level, they could add 0.25 to that score, for a total of +2 (0.75).

[Cortillaen]

In terms of getting ability scores through leveling up, each level would confer 0.25 of a modifier that you can assign to any ability score. So for example, an ability score of 15 is +2 (0.5). The fraction part is non functional as a fraction. If a character gained a level, they could add 0.25 to that score, for a total of +2 (0.75).
I hope your are as amused as I am that your proposal for removing supposedly non-functional numbers now includes tracking non-functional numbers. :smallbiggrin: Also, it would need to be +0.125 per level to match the current rate of growth (4 levels per 1 score, 2 score per 1 modifier).

[Remuko]

I hope your are as amused as I am that your proposal for removing supposedly non-functional numbers now includes tracking non-functional numbers. :smallbiggrin: Also, it would need to be +0.125 per level to match the current rate of growth (4 levels per 1 score, 2 score per 1 modifier).

agreed. this seems worse than ability scores.