Anthrowhale
2023-11-23, 08:46 PM
Here, I want to analyze the top-10 lists (See 0 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?657743-Top-10-cantrips),1 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?657825-Top-10-level-1-spells-at-ECL2-amp-20),2 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?658094-Top-10-level-2-spells-at-ECL-4-amp-20),3 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?658251-Top-10-level-3-spells-at-ECL6-amp-20),4 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?658751-Top-10-level-4-spells-at-ECL-8-amp-20#post25846144),5 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?659463-Top-10-level-5-spells-at-ECL-10-amp-20),6 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?660156-Top-10-level-6-spells-at-ECL-12-amp-20),7 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?660357-Top-10-level-7-spells-at-ECL14-and-20),8 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?661013-Top-10-level-8-spells),9 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?661419-Top-10-level-9-spells#post25892758)) across levels to look for weak points and gaps in defense spells, which are a natural complement to attack spells (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?661892-Systemic-analysis-of-top-10-attack-spells-across-levels) with each illuminating the other. Comments/questions are welcome---the goal is finding gaps and redundancies to improve the lists.
There are several kinds of defenses covering what Person_Man lists (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?314701-Person_Man-s-Niche-Ranking-System) as Battlefield Control, Buffer, Healer, and Meat Shield. Summarizing the analysis below, potential opportunities to improve the lists include:
L4 Sheltered Vitality seems important to counter ability damage effects, of which L3 Shivering Touch is a potent example.
L4@ECL20 Bloodfreeze Arrow is vulnerable to Heart of Water or any other Freedom of Movement source.
L4@ECL20 Fugue is vulnerable to Silence, an effect which is available much earlier.
L7@ECL20 Crown of Despair seems relatively redundant with Unearthly Beauty and even a simple Protection from Evil blocks it.
L6@ECL20 Heal is a bit suspect because again Miracle provides a means to remove status effects generically.
Comments are very welcome on the above.
Changes made:
+L4@ECL20 Favor of the Martyr.
-L4@ECL20 Restoration.
Immunities all provide blanket defenses to some some set of effects.
L1@ECL2 Prot from Evil
L3@ECL6 Disobedience
L3@ECL6 Heart of Water
L4@ECL8 Polymorph
L4 Dweomer of Transference
L4@ECL20 Favor of the Martyr
L6 Empyreal Ecstasy
L6 Energy Immunity
L6@ECL12 Antimagic Field
L7@ECL20 Planar Bubble
L8 Polymorph Any Object
L8 Mystic Shield
L9 Shapechange
L9 Hide Life
Immunities to top 10 attack spells provide a good contrast as it can reveal gaps and redundancies in both attacks and defenses. In doing this, it seems worthwhile to note Costly immunities (provided by Limited Wish) since you don't want to use the often and Type based immunities since you can only have one form at a time. After that, we can sort by the difference between the level the effect is available on the top-10 list and the level the immunity is available. Here, I'm counting <none> as level 21.
ECL6 Glibness: <none>
ECL3 Bladesong: Costly ECL13 Limited Wish[Favor of the Martyr], ECL14 Favor of the Martyr, ECL15 Mystic Shield
ECL1 Launch Item[alchemical damage]: ECL11 Energy Immunity
ECL1 Launch Item[Aboleth Slime]: ECL11 Greater Anyspell[Ray Deflection or Friendly Fire]
ECL7 Wings of Flurry: ECL15 Mystic Shield.
ECL9 Plane Shift: ECL15 Mystic Shield
ECL9 Magic Jar: ECL15 Mystic Shield
ECL5 Venomfire: ECL11 Energy Immunity
ECL1 Heartache: Type ECL7 Polymorph[Plant type], ECL13 Empyreal Ecstasy
ECL1 Color Spray: Type ECL7 Polymorph[Plant type], ECL13 Empyreal Ecstasy
ECL15 Polymorph Any Object: <none>
ECL15 Frostfell: <none> or ECL17 Hide Life on save.
ECL1 Entangle: ECL5 Heart of Water
ECL15 Unearthly Beauty: ECL17 Hide Life
ECL5 Shivering Touch: Type ECL7 Polymorph[cold type], Costly ECL13 Limited Wish[Sheltered Vitality], ECL15 Mystic Shield
ECL3 Kelpstrand: ECL5 Heart of Water
ECL5 Fireball: Type ECL7 Polymorph[Fire subtype], Immune ECL11 Energy Immunity
ECL1 Charm Person: ECL1 Protection from Evil
ECL8 Hunter's Eye: Type ECL7 Polymorph[Plant type]
ECL3 Suggestion: ECL1 Protection from Evil
ECL13 Amber Sarcophagus: ECL11 Greater Anyspell[Ray Deflection or Friendly Fire]
ECL3 Command Undead: Default Immune, Type ECL7 Polymorph[nonundead]
ECL9 Control Winds: ECL5 Heart of Water
ECL11 Dream Casting: ECL5 Disobedience
ECL13 Holy Word: ECL5 Anyspell[Silence]
ECL17 Mindrape: Type ECL7 Polymorph[Plant type], ECL13 Empyreal Ecstasy
ECL17 Love's Pain: Type ECL7 Polymorph[Plant type], ECL13 Empyreal Ecstasy
ECL14 Bloodfreeze Arrow: ECL5 Heart of Water
ECL~16 Fugue: ECL5 Anyspell[Silence]
ECL13 Crown of Despair: ECL1 Protection from Evil
Note that Glibness seems to be the only attack spell for which there is no obvious immunity source. Even Frostfell and Polymorph Any Object can be blocked via Complete Arcane's "Proof Against Transmutation" armor property.
Missing immunities are evident in the above. Do we want them?
L4 Favor of the Martyr. The benefit of including this on-list is quite high if thinking about the Archivist, but not so significant when thinking about a Paladin since they access it at ECL14, just one level
L4 Sheltered Vitality. The ability to shed ability damage is quite useful in light of Shivering Touch.
L4 Friendly Fire or Ray Deflection. These are very nice effects, but they only seem necessary once Amber Sarcophagus is available, and accessing via Greater Anyspell seems reasonable.
L2 Silence. Silence shuts down [sonic] attacks, but particularly dangerous sonic attacks (i.e. Fugue, Holy Word) only arrive after Anyspell can access Silence.
Unused Immunities are also potential candidates for removal, but it appears not.
L4 Dweomer of Transference. This is a blanket immunity to all spells and plausibly SLAs at ECL7. This is a plausible ban-list effect, so it's not included in the above.
L6 Antimagic Field. This is a blanket immunity to all spells, SLAs, and supernatural effects at ECL11. In combination with Initiate of Mystra, this is a ban list effect, so it's not included in the above.
L7@ECL20 Planar Bubble. This provides potential immunity to virtually all effects. This is plausibly a ban-list effect.
L8 Polymorph Any Object. This may (see here (https://web.archive.org/web/20160123060634/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040601a)) or may not (see FAQ (https://web.archive.org/web/20161101032121/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20060131a)) provide access to Undead/Construct types which have additional immunities. In any case, it's an extremely versatile and powerful spell.
L9 Shapechange. This provides deeply comprehensive immunities, but earlier spells have already managed that. It's an absurdly useful spell and so definitely stays on the list.
Weak attacks are also potentially revealed as those for which immunities are already available.
Hunter's Eye. This is obviously limited by type immunities, but there are type immunity bypasses via weapon crystals, for example.
Suggestion. My impression is that there are plenty of low-level enemies vulnerable to mind-affecting compulsions/charms.
Amber Sarcophagus. Immunity to ranged attacks is a relatively rare property, plausibly only available to spellcasters.
Command Undead. This is specialized, but it's a strong complement to Suggestion so the pair cover most low-level monsters
Control Winds. Freedom of Movement plausibly works here, but I view Control Winds as more of a disaster spell than a BFC/damage spell. We plausibly need one disaster spell on the lists.
Dream Casting. Another Compulsion/Charm effect. The infinite range makes it seem pretty worthwhile.
Mindrape. You can potentially evade type-based immunity via Polymorph Any Object.
Love's Pain: This is a pretty unique effect due to the range. It seems to require Mindrape for effective targeting.
Holy Word. Silence is rare in a couple ways: You typically would prefer to hear & be able to cast verbal spells, and it requires a spellcaster.
Bloodfreeze Arrow. Whether or not Heart of Water can initiate Freedom of Movement as a purely mental action isn't entirely clear but it plausibly is. This is also coming at level 4 which is pretty contested, so it's potentially tempting to drop.
Fugue. Silence could more easily be used in a reactive fashion here than for Holy Word, potentially nerfing the effect.
Crown of Despair. The passive attack here is monstrous, but I'm less convinced that it's adding much on top of Unearthly Beauty once that becomes available.
Removing effects at earlier levels than immunities is also important. Usually you use these out of combat since the opportunity-cost of an action is to high, but they may be useful occasionally in combat.
L0 Mending
L0 Dawn
L1@ECL2 Faith Healing or Lesser Vigor
L2@ECL4 Lesser Restoration
L2@ECL10 Heroics[Martial Study[Iron Heart Surge]]
L4@ECL8 Last Breathe
L4 Restoration
L6 Heal
L9 Disjunction
Early removal of top-10 attack spell effects before an immunity is available provides some further insight.
all hit point damage effects: ECL1 Faith Healing or Lesser Vigor
ECL1 Launch Item[Aboleth Slime]: ECL10 Heroics[Martial Study[Iron Heart Surge]]
ECL9 Plane Shift: ECL9 Plane Shift+Teleport
ECL15 Polymorph Any Object: ECL15 Polymorph Any Object
ECL15 Frostfell: ECL11 Greater Anyspell[Ice to Flesh]
ECL15 Unearthly Beauty: ECL7 Last Breath
ECL5 Shivering Touch: ECL3 Lesser Restoration
ECL13 Amber Sarcophagus: Mundane damage.
Ice to Flesh is missing from the top-10 lists, but since it's accessible via Greater Anyspell that seems ok. I also don't see these as fundamentally altering the desirability of an attack spell since they are again typically used out of combat.
Unused removal effects are potentially weak points for consideration.
L0 Mending. Not a significant game effect in most situations.
L0 Dawn. There are no sleep effects on list, but they are potent and common in general.
L4 Restoration. This replaces Lesser Restoration, and also covers ability drain & level loss. Potentially this could be skipped at ECL20 in favor of Miracle[Restoration].
L6 Heal. This can heal enough hit points to matter in higher level combat and provides status removal for many other uncovered effects. The could be skipped at ECL20 in favor of Miracle[Heal] although in-combat L9 slots are limited.
L9 Disjunction. Knocks out any freaky magic effect. There are so many that the blanket power is undiscardable.
"Maybe remove" effects are very generic methods which sometimes remove effects or options.
L1 Resurgence: Anything with a save.
L2@ECL4 Arcane Turmoil: Any low-level spell effect.
L5@ECL10 Greater Dispel Magic: Any midish-level spell effect
These seem like potentially good catch-alls for things we don't anticipate although the exact value of being able to deal with unknowns is unknown.
Resist: these spells help a character resist various attacks.
L1@ECL20 Conviction: Saves+5(Morale)
L1 Instant of Power: Save+4(Enhancement)
L2 Heroics[Martial Study[Diamond Mind concentration maneuvers]]
L3@ECL20 Greater Magic Weapon: AC+lots via multiple defending weapons.
L4@ECL20 Ruin Delver's Fortune: Save+Cha(Luck), Evasion,
L5@ECL20 Skin of the Steel Dragon: SR = caster level+10.
L5 Surge of Fortune: Save roll is 20.
L5 Power Leech: Huge enhancement bonus to stat improves saves.
L6 Empyreal Ecstasy: half hit point damage.
L8 Moment of Prescience: Save+25(insight)
All of these are potentially cumulative, although Surge of Fortune and Instant of Power both consume an immediate action, implying two spellcasters or breaking the action economy. As an example, Conviction+Instant of Power+Ruin Delver's Fortune+Surge of Fortune+Power Leech+Moment of Prescience gives a potential to pass a DC 70 save fairly easily.
Prevent: These spells prevent a character from being targeted or an attack from getting through.
L2 Wings of Cover: Immediate action line of effect (LOE) breaker.
L2 Obscuring Snow: Mobile One-way line of sight (LOS) breaker.
L3@ECL20 Anticipate Teleportation: Extradimensional attack interrupt.
L4 Wall of Sand: LOE+LOS breaker at medium range.
L8 Frostfell: One-Way LOS breaker at medium range.
Each of these seems to have real value in the context of the others. Plausibly the weakest is Frostfell, but this is just a secondary benefit of Frostfell.
There are several kinds of defenses covering what Person_Man lists (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?314701-Person_Man-s-Niche-Ranking-System) as Battlefield Control, Buffer, Healer, and Meat Shield. Summarizing the analysis below, potential opportunities to improve the lists include:
L4 Sheltered Vitality seems important to counter ability damage effects, of which L3 Shivering Touch is a potent example.
L4@ECL20 Bloodfreeze Arrow is vulnerable to Heart of Water or any other Freedom of Movement source.
L4@ECL20 Fugue is vulnerable to Silence, an effect which is available much earlier.
L7@ECL20 Crown of Despair seems relatively redundant with Unearthly Beauty and even a simple Protection from Evil blocks it.
L6@ECL20 Heal is a bit suspect because again Miracle provides a means to remove status effects generically.
Comments are very welcome on the above.
Changes made:
+L4@ECL20 Favor of the Martyr.
-L4@ECL20 Restoration.
Immunities all provide blanket defenses to some some set of effects.
L1@ECL2 Prot from Evil
L3@ECL6 Disobedience
L3@ECL6 Heart of Water
L4@ECL8 Polymorph
L4 Dweomer of Transference
L4@ECL20 Favor of the Martyr
L6 Empyreal Ecstasy
L6 Energy Immunity
L6@ECL12 Antimagic Field
L7@ECL20 Planar Bubble
L8 Polymorph Any Object
L8 Mystic Shield
L9 Shapechange
L9 Hide Life
Immunities to top 10 attack spells provide a good contrast as it can reveal gaps and redundancies in both attacks and defenses. In doing this, it seems worthwhile to note Costly immunities (provided by Limited Wish) since you don't want to use the often and Type based immunities since you can only have one form at a time. After that, we can sort by the difference between the level the effect is available on the top-10 list and the level the immunity is available. Here, I'm counting <none> as level 21.
ECL6 Glibness: <none>
ECL3 Bladesong: Costly ECL13 Limited Wish[Favor of the Martyr], ECL14 Favor of the Martyr, ECL15 Mystic Shield
ECL1 Launch Item[alchemical damage]: ECL11 Energy Immunity
ECL1 Launch Item[Aboleth Slime]: ECL11 Greater Anyspell[Ray Deflection or Friendly Fire]
ECL7 Wings of Flurry: ECL15 Mystic Shield.
ECL9 Plane Shift: ECL15 Mystic Shield
ECL9 Magic Jar: ECL15 Mystic Shield
ECL5 Venomfire: ECL11 Energy Immunity
ECL1 Heartache: Type ECL7 Polymorph[Plant type], ECL13 Empyreal Ecstasy
ECL1 Color Spray: Type ECL7 Polymorph[Plant type], ECL13 Empyreal Ecstasy
ECL15 Polymorph Any Object: <none>
ECL15 Frostfell: <none> or ECL17 Hide Life on save.
ECL1 Entangle: ECL5 Heart of Water
ECL15 Unearthly Beauty: ECL17 Hide Life
ECL5 Shivering Touch: Type ECL7 Polymorph[cold type], Costly ECL13 Limited Wish[Sheltered Vitality], ECL15 Mystic Shield
ECL3 Kelpstrand: ECL5 Heart of Water
ECL5 Fireball: Type ECL7 Polymorph[Fire subtype], Immune ECL11 Energy Immunity
ECL1 Charm Person: ECL1 Protection from Evil
ECL8 Hunter's Eye: Type ECL7 Polymorph[Plant type]
ECL3 Suggestion: ECL1 Protection from Evil
ECL13 Amber Sarcophagus: ECL11 Greater Anyspell[Ray Deflection or Friendly Fire]
ECL3 Command Undead: Default Immune, Type ECL7 Polymorph[nonundead]
ECL9 Control Winds: ECL5 Heart of Water
ECL11 Dream Casting: ECL5 Disobedience
ECL13 Holy Word: ECL5 Anyspell[Silence]
ECL17 Mindrape: Type ECL7 Polymorph[Plant type], ECL13 Empyreal Ecstasy
ECL17 Love's Pain: Type ECL7 Polymorph[Plant type], ECL13 Empyreal Ecstasy
ECL14 Bloodfreeze Arrow: ECL5 Heart of Water
ECL~16 Fugue: ECL5 Anyspell[Silence]
ECL13 Crown of Despair: ECL1 Protection from Evil
Note that Glibness seems to be the only attack spell for which there is no obvious immunity source. Even Frostfell and Polymorph Any Object can be blocked via Complete Arcane's "Proof Against Transmutation" armor property.
Missing immunities are evident in the above. Do we want them?
L4 Favor of the Martyr. The benefit of including this on-list is quite high if thinking about the Archivist, but not so significant when thinking about a Paladin since they access it at ECL14, just one level
L4 Sheltered Vitality. The ability to shed ability damage is quite useful in light of Shivering Touch.
L4 Friendly Fire or Ray Deflection. These are very nice effects, but they only seem necessary once Amber Sarcophagus is available, and accessing via Greater Anyspell seems reasonable.
L2 Silence. Silence shuts down [sonic] attacks, but particularly dangerous sonic attacks (i.e. Fugue, Holy Word) only arrive after Anyspell can access Silence.
Unused Immunities are also potential candidates for removal, but it appears not.
L4 Dweomer of Transference. This is a blanket immunity to all spells and plausibly SLAs at ECL7. This is a plausible ban-list effect, so it's not included in the above.
L6 Antimagic Field. This is a blanket immunity to all spells, SLAs, and supernatural effects at ECL11. In combination with Initiate of Mystra, this is a ban list effect, so it's not included in the above.
L7@ECL20 Planar Bubble. This provides potential immunity to virtually all effects. This is plausibly a ban-list effect.
L8 Polymorph Any Object. This may (see here (https://web.archive.org/web/20160123060634/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040601a)) or may not (see FAQ (https://web.archive.org/web/20161101032121/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20060131a)) provide access to Undead/Construct types which have additional immunities. In any case, it's an extremely versatile and powerful spell.
L9 Shapechange. This provides deeply comprehensive immunities, but earlier spells have already managed that. It's an absurdly useful spell and so definitely stays on the list.
Weak attacks are also potentially revealed as those for which immunities are already available.
Hunter's Eye. This is obviously limited by type immunities, but there are type immunity bypasses via weapon crystals, for example.
Suggestion. My impression is that there are plenty of low-level enemies vulnerable to mind-affecting compulsions/charms.
Amber Sarcophagus. Immunity to ranged attacks is a relatively rare property, plausibly only available to spellcasters.
Command Undead. This is specialized, but it's a strong complement to Suggestion so the pair cover most low-level monsters
Control Winds. Freedom of Movement plausibly works here, but I view Control Winds as more of a disaster spell than a BFC/damage spell. We plausibly need one disaster spell on the lists.
Dream Casting. Another Compulsion/Charm effect. The infinite range makes it seem pretty worthwhile.
Mindrape. You can potentially evade type-based immunity via Polymorph Any Object.
Love's Pain: This is a pretty unique effect due to the range. It seems to require Mindrape for effective targeting.
Holy Word. Silence is rare in a couple ways: You typically would prefer to hear & be able to cast verbal spells, and it requires a spellcaster.
Bloodfreeze Arrow. Whether or not Heart of Water can initiate Freedom of Movement as a purely mental action isn't entirely clear but it plausibly is. This is also coming at level 4 which is pretty contested, so it's potentially tempting to drop.
Fugue. Silence could more easily be used in a reactive fashion here than for Holy Word, potentially nerfing the effect.
Crown of Despair. The passive attack here is monstrous, but I'm less convinced that it's adding much on top of Unearthly Beauty once that becomes available.
Removing effects at earlier levels than immunities is also important. Usually you use these out of combat since the opportunity-cost of an action is to high, but they may be useful occasionally in combat.
L0 Mending
L0 Dawn
L1@ECL2 Faith Healing or Lesser Vigor
L2@ECL4 Lesser Restoration
L2@ECL10 Heroics[Martial Study[Iron Heart Surge]]
L4@ECL8 Last Breathe
L4 Restoration
L6 Heal
L9 Disjunction
Early removal of top-10 attack spell effects before an immunity is available provides some further insight.
all hit point damage effects: ECL1 Faith Healing or Lesser Vigor
ECL1 Launch Item[Aboleth Slime]: ECL10 Heroics[Martial Study[Iron Heart Surge]]
ECL9 Plane Shift: ECL9 Plane Shift+Teleport
ECL15 Polymorph Any Object: ECL15 Polymorph Any Object
ECL15 Frostfell: ECL11 Greater Anyspell[Ice to Flesh]
ECL15 Unearthly Beauty: ECL7 Last Breath
ECL5 Shivering Touch: ECL3 Lesser Restoration
ECL13 Amber Sarcophagus: Mundane damage.
Ice to Flesh is missing from the top-10 lists, but since it's accessible via Greater Anyspell that seems ok. I also don't see these as fundamentally altering the desirability of an attack spell since they are again typically used out of combat.
Unused removal effects are potentially weak points for consideration.
L0 Mending. Not a significant game effect in most situations.
L0 Dawn. There are no sleep effects on list, but they are potent and common in general.
L4 Restoration. This replaces Lesser Restoration, and also covers ability drain & level loss. Potentially this could be skipped at ECL20 in favor of Miracle[Restoration].
L6 Heal. This can heal enough hit points to matter in higher level combat and provides status removal for many other uncovered effects. The could be skipped at ECL20 in favor of Miracle[Heal] although in-combat L9 slots are limited.
L9 Disjunction. Knocks out any freaky magic effect. There are so many that the blanket power is undiscardable.
"Maybe remove" effects are very generic methods which sometimes remove effects or options.
L1 Resurgence: Anything with a save.
L2@ECL4 Arcane Turmoil: Any low-level spell effect.
L5@ECL10 Greater Dispel Magic: Any midish-level spell effect
These seem like potentially good catch-alls for things we don't anticipate although the exact value of being able to deal with unknowns is unknown.
Resist: these spells help a character resist various attacks.
L1@ECL20 Conviction: Saves+5(Morale)
L1 Instant of Power: Save+4(Enhancement)
L2 Heroics[Martial Study[Diamond Mind concentration maneuvers]]
L3@ECL20 Greater Magic Weapon: AC+lots via multiple defending weapons.
L4@ECL20 Ruin Delver's Fortune: Save+Cha(Luck), Evasion,
L5@ECL20 Skin of the Steel Dragon: SR = caster level+10.
L5 Surge of Fortune: Save roll is 20.
L5 Power Leech: Huge enhancement bonus to stat improves saves.
L6 Empyreal Ecstasy: half hit point damage.
L8 Moment of Prescience: Save+25(insight)
All of these are potentially cumulative, although Surge of Fortune and Instant of Power both consume an immediate action, implying two spellcasters or breaking the action economy. As an example, Conviction+Instant of Power+Ruin Delver's Fortune+Surge of Fortune+Power Leech+Moment of Prescience gives a potential to pass a DC 70 save fairly easily.
Prevent: These spells prevent a character from being targeted or an attack from getting through.
L2 Wings of Cover: Immediate action line of effect (LOE) breaker.
L2 Obscuring Snow: Mobile One-way line of sight (LOS) breaker.
L3@ECL20 Anticipate Teleportation: Extradimensional attack interrupt.
L4 Wall of Sand: LOE+LOS breaker at medium range.
L8 Frostfell: One-Way LOS breaker at medium range.
Each of these seems to have real value in the context of the others. Plausibly the weakest is Frostfell, but this is just a secondary benefit of Frostfell.