Bard Paladin Fullcaster build

[Dlabuga]

Hello ppl.

I'm trying to make a Bard/paladin build with fullcaster in both list


Maybe:

Bard 1 (Precocious Apprentice+Dynamic Priest)
Paladin 4
Mystic Theurge 6
Sublime Chord 2
Mystic Theurge 4
Abjurant Champion 3

Any tips?

[noob]

If you get divine ranks, you can take craft artifact to make the shield artifact that grants full paladin casting.
One good reason to want paladin casting is battle blessing (reduce casting time for paladin spells by one step for standard action and full action spells) which conveniently have no requirements other than the ability to cast paladin spells so fitting it in your build could be nice.

[Anthrowhale]

Can you just be an Archivist and crib spells from the Divine Bard list and the Paladin list? That seems like the easiest and most straightforward approach.

[ShurikVch]

Bard 4/Anima Mage 7/Silver Pyromancer 1

Feats:
Any [metamagic]
Bind Vestige
Bind Vestige, Improved
Devoted Performer (to allow LG alignment - for Silver Pyromancer - without becoming ex-Bard)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I agree that Archivist is the best way to go about this. They can learn literally any divine spell in the game (https://web.archive.org/web/20150917084406/http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1023251), including every spell from the Divine Bard (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantDivineBard) and Paladin class lists. Dip one level of Sacred Exorcist and one level of Prestige Paladin (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin), trade your Prestige Paladin turn undead for rebuke dragons, and use both pools of turn/rebuke uses to power divine feats like Divine Metamagic: Persistent.

[Nihilarian]

Pious Templar gets explicitly paladin casting over the course of 10 levels instead of 20. You could take fewer levels in mystic theurge and more in abjurant champion, and have some room to play around as well.

[Chronos]

Define "fullcaster", please. Ordinarily it means reaching 9th level spells by 20th level, but neither paladin nor bard reaches 9ths. Sublime Chord can reach 9ths; do you require that? Is the standard "must get to the highest spell level in each class", or "must get to 9ths from Sublime Chord and 4ths from Paladin"?

Biffoniacus_Furiou, Prestige Paladin isn't really an option. That, like the other prestige versions of PHB classes, is meant to be something that exists in the world instead of base-class paladin, not in addition to it, at the DM's discretion. Given that the OP's original build included the base class, we can conclude that his DM did not replace it with the prestige version, and so the prestige version shouldn't be assumed to be available.

[Dlabuga]

Define "fullcaster", please. Ordinarily it means reaching 9th level spells by 20th level, but neither paladin nor bard reaches 9ths. Sublime Chord can reach 9ths; do you require that? Is the standard "must get to the highest spell level in each class", or "must get to 9ths from Sublime Chord and 4ths from Paladin"?

Biffoniacus_Furiou, Prestige Paladin isn't really an option. That, like the other prestige versions of PHB classes, is meant to be something that exists in the world instead of base-class paladin, not in addition to it, at the DM's discretion. Given that the OP's original build included the base class, we can conclude that his DM did not replace it with the prestige version, and so the prestige version shouldn't be assumed to be available.

Thats it... i need 9ths from sublime and 4ths from paladin

[Maat Mons]

If it helps, Holy Liberator and Pious Templar both cast from the Paladin spell list, but compress it into fewer levels.

Bard 7 / Pious Templar 3 / Sublime Chord 2 / Mystic Theurge 8
or
Bard 7 / Holy Liberator 4 / Sublime Chord 2 / Mystic Theurge 7

Both of the above fulfil your criteria, but neither is very good.



Silver Pyromancer can add Paladin spells to another class’s spell list, but it doesn’t work very well with Bard.

[H_H_F_F]

Are you just interested in access to the paladin spell list, or do you need them to be paladin spells?

[Dlabuga]

Are you just interested in access to the paladin spell list, or do you need them to be paladin spells?

I’m looking for bard and paladin spell list

Like a gish, but its Not necessary to be sublime Chord.

[Dlabuga]

I will be more specific:

4th Paladin spells (Dynamic Priest)
6th Bard spells
Turn undead
Divine grace

16 BAB

[Maat Mons]

Since you’re already using Dragonlance, I guess you could try that bizarre Knight of the Rose PrC.
Archivist 4 / full base attack bonus class 2 / Knight of the Crown 1 / Knight of the Sword 3 / Knight of the Rose 10
Feats: Honor Bound, Diehard, Endurance, Mounted Combat, Leadership

If you don’t mind Ravenloft material, Knight of the Raven is much less convoluted.
Archivist 4 / Paladin 2 / Knight of the Raven 10 / something else 4
Feats: all free

If you don’t mind 3.0 Faerun content, Windwalker is an option.
Archivist 6 / Paladin 2 / Sacred Exorcist 2 / Windwalker 10
Feats: Lightning Reflexes, Track, Weapon Focus (greatsword)

If you don’t mind being an orc or goblin, there’s Hexer.
Archivist 6 / Paladin 2 / Sacred Exorcist 2 / Hexer 10
Feats: all free

[Anthrowhale]

...Sacred Exorcist 2 / Hexer 10

It's a good overview, but I believe SE and Hexer are alignment incompatible.

Witch Hunter 1 provides a way to get a Divine Grace-like ability (they call it Kami's Grace and it's Ex instead of Su) in one level with full BAB. Using that,

Archivist 4/Church Inquisitor 4/Sacred Exorcist 1/Witch Hunter 1/Knight of the Raven 10 gives you Archivist 18 spells, BAB+16, Turn Undead, Saves+Cha.

Fist of Raziel is a good alternate for Knight of the Raven although it has a feat tax.

[Pezzo]

If your DM is fine with letting you play a hellbred who knew druidic in his past life and allows the Ordered chaos feat to qualify for classes you could manage to enter Fochlucan lyrist. Something like this:
NG Hellbred
Bard 4 / Paladin of freedom 2 / Holy liberator 1 / Shadow scout 2 / Bard 1 / Fochlucan lyrist 2 / Sublime chord 1 / fochlucan lyrist 7

Or if your ok with some MAD paladin 5 / chameleon 10

[H_H_F_F]

If your DM is fine with letting you play a hellbred who knew druidic in his past life and allows the Ordered chaos feat to qualify for classes you could manage to enter Fochlucan lyrist. Something like this:
NG Hellbred
Bard 4 / Paladin of freedom 2 / Holy liberator 1 / Shadow scout 2 / Bard 1 / Fochlucan lyrist 2 / Sublime chord 1 / fochlucan lyrist 7

Or if your ok with some MAD paladin 5 / chameleon 10

Why shadow scout? Two dead feats. Just go rogue.

Also, no turn undead, which OP specifically said the needed.

[Dlabuga]

The problem with me using the archivist is that it relies on INT and WIS to cast spells, and my focus would be CHA.

[Anthrowhale]

The problem with me using the archivist is that it relies on INT and WIS to cast spells, and my focus would be CHA.

Would you consider using the Serenity feat?

[Dlabuga]

Would you consider using the Serenity feat?

Can be used, Ill lost Divine Might but i can maybe add Holy Warrior..idk

But i woulnd fit for Bard spells

[Pezzo]

Why shadow scout? Two dead feats. Just go rogue.

Also, no turn undead, which OP specifically said the needed.
Damn forgot about turning, and you're also right about shadow scout. Thought it was one short of BAB, I'm bad at math :p

Rogue 3 / Bard 4 / Soldier of light 2 / Holy liberator 1 / Bard 1 / Fochlucan lyrist 2 / Sublime chord 1 / Fochlucan lyrist 6
I think this works, but gets multiclass penalty for levels 12th and 13th

[H_H_F_F]

Damn forgot about turning, and you're also right about shadow scout. Thought it was one short of BAB, I'm bad at math :p

Rogue 3 / Bard 4 / Soldier of light 2 / Holy liberator 1 / Bard 1 / Fochlucan lyrist 2 / Sublime chord 1 / Fochlucan lyrist 6
I think this works, but gets multiclass penalty for levels 12th and 13th

Ordered chaos for holy liberator?

Also, why the fifth bard level?

[Pezzo]

Ordered chaos for holy liberator?

Also, why the fifth bard level?

Yes, good call. I didn't notice we can go Pious templar instead.
I put the 5th bard level back for capping perform, and the other 4 are needed for BAB requirements

[H_H_F_F]

Yes, good call. I didn't notice we can go Pious templar instead.
I put the 5th bard level back for capping perform, and the other 4 are needed for BAB requirements

I think you could easily cap it by having 10 int, no? It'd be more expensive, granted, but would save you a point of bab.

Worth noting that pious templar also costs you two feats, but mettle is superior, saves are better, and skill prereqs overlap.

[Pezzo]

Yes, it would avoid XP penalty and maxout Pious templar casting as well.

[Maat Mons]

Archivist can take Dynamic Priest, same as Paladin. You'd still use Int for save DCs, but you could focus on spells that don't have saves (buffs, summons, et c.).

[ShurikVch]

If 3rd-party and Evil alignment aren't issues, then: Darklight Wizard 2/Anima Mage 5/Eldritch Master 8

Spell Dilettante - CF of Eldritch Master (Dragon #280) - allow to add spells from any other spell list to your spell list, and you got it twice, but have CL progression 3/10 (+1 at 3rd, 6th, and 9th levels)

Darklight Wizard - "PrC" from Villain Design Handbook - actually, "resets" your character level to 1, gets next spell level every class level (thus, 9th-level spells at character level 9), got full BAB and Int to saves

Feats: Any [metamagic]
Bind Vestige
Bind Vestige, Improved
Improved Binding
(but you can to don't even waste any of limited feat slots for them: since you keep all your pre-conversion feats as bonus feats - just take them all before converting to Darklight Wizard :smallwink:)

[Anthrowhale]

Can be used, Ill lost Divine Might but i can maybe add Holy Warrior..idk

But i woulnd fit for Bard spells

How about:

Bard 5/Memory Smith 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 1/Silver Pyromancer 1/Sacred Exorcist 3

BAB+16
Bard 19 spell advancement
Paladin spell access
Turn Undead

[Dlabuga]

How about:

Bard 5/Memory Smith 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 1/Silver Pyromancer 1/Sacred Exorcist 3

BAB+16
Bard 19 spell advancement
Paladin spell access
Turn Undead

Well, I think I'll follow the progression below:

Silverbrown Human (Chaotic Good) - STR 14, DEX 8, CON 15, INT 10, WIS 12, CAR 18 (Fraction BAB/Saves)

Bard - Power Attack / Endurance
Cleric - Knowledge Devotion / Charm Domain
Bard - Diehard
Bard
Bard
Bard - Honor Bound
Bard (Change to Lawful Good)
Knight of the Crown
Knight of the Sword - Mounted Combat
Knight of the Sword
Knight of the Sword
Sublime Chord- Leadership
Silver Pyromancer
Silver Pyromancer
Knight of the Rose - Divine Might
Knight of the Rose
Knight of the Rose
Knight of the Rose - Battle Blessing? Idk
Knight of the Rose
Knight of the Rose

Turn Undead, Divine Grace, 16 BAB
Paladin 4th Spells
Bard 6th Spells
Sorc/Wiz 8th Spells
Cleric 2nd Spells

I think I'll focus in Charism to use Thunderlance Spell.