Need help designing a Subclass

[Mr.PC0X]

Context: I've been reinventing an old NPC class from Oe into a player class. The class is the Specialist (Oe's "Expert"), and I've been designing it based on the 5e's Expert Sidekick class as a base. The Specialist receives a Subclass at 3rd level and is primarily martial (but some subclasses get spells). I've currently completed subclasses for the Alchemist, the Armorer, the Animal Trainer, and the Assassin. Additional subclasses will include the Sage, Scribe, Smith, Spy, and Sailor.

Request: The next subclass I need to work on is the Engineer. The Engineer, summarily described from Oe is necessary for creating/reinforcing/repairing/dismantling/demolishing of structures as well as being proficient with Siege Weaponry. In addition, they are "required" for tunneling, so the Engineer focuses on support, both for fortifying defensive positons, providing sapping tunnels, and is knowledgable in how to "bring down the house".

The Engineer (like the other sublcasses) receives one or two Subclass features (called a Specialization feature) at 3rd (when they receive their subclass) and again at 9th, 13th, ad 17th.

I know this is a lot but I'm kind of stumped. I remember there was a thread for homebrew requests, and I'd hate to bother people, but I'd like some advice or inspriation to work with. Best I have so far is just the "Siege Weapon" monster trant.

[Catullus64]

Context: I've been reinventing an old NPC class from Oe into a player class. The class is the Specialist (Oe's "Expert"), and I've been designing it based on the 5e's Expert Sidekick class as a base. The Specialist receives a Subclass at 3rd level and is primarily martial (but some subclasses get spells). I've currently completed subclasses for the Alchemist, the Armorer, the Animal Trainer, and the Assassin. Additional subclasses will include the Sage, Scribe, Smith, Spy, and Sailor.

Request: The next subclass I need to work on is the Engineer. The Engineer, summarily described from Oe is necessary for creating/reinforcing/repairing/dismantling/demolishing of structures as well as being proficient with Siege Weaponry. In addition, they are "required" for tunneling, so the Engineer focuses on support, both for fortifying defensive positons, providing sapping tunnels, and is knowledgable in how to "bring down the house".

The Engineer (like the other sublcasses) receives one or two Subclass features (called a Specialization feature) at 3rd (when they receive their subclass) and again at 9th, 13th, ad 17th.

I know this is a lot but I'm kind of stumped. I remember there was a thread for homebrew requests, and I'd hate to bother people, but I'd like some advice or inspriation to work with. Best I have so far is just the "Siege Weapon" monster trant.

What about a pseudo-divination ability? Limited number of uses (INT per long rest), automatically detect secret doors (and how to open them), traps, number of branches in a passageway, dead ends, weak walls, existence of levels/rooms above or below the current one, or any other feature of a visible structure that the DM deems appropriate?

If you want to give them combat power, maybe a feature called Sapper. "You are accustomed to fighting in the narrow spaces of mines and buildings." It could allow them to squeeze without penalties and grant melee combat bonuses when fighting in confined spaces. Maybe their ranged attacks can automatically reduce cover by one step (ignoring half cover, treating three-quarters cover as half cover and full cover as three-quarters cover. As you've pointed out, different kinds of demolition bombs could be available to the class, if setting appropriate (which it might not be). But overall, it seems like this class is meant to have less emphasis on direct combat.

In general, most good subclasses build upon the core class features, like how some Rogue subclasses will give you different ways to Sneak Attack, or Druid subclasses give alternate or improved Wild Shape. So what are some of the class-defining features of the core Expert?

The biggest problem with classes build around a non-magical skillset is that it implicitly denies access to that activity to other classes, so I'd be wary of giving it powers that explicitly overlap with ability checks, skills, tool proficiencies.

[Just to Browse]

Here's a link to the request a homebrew thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?408530-Request-a-Homebrew-Thread-3) if you want to drop by there.

It's tough to write a subclass in a vacuum like this. The best subclass designs are meant to complement the structure of the base class, like caster subs adding to spell lists, rogue subs integrating with sneak attack, fighter subs sneaking in some utility, etc.

If you're looking for some combat-relevant effects, I think deploying terrain / obstructions, jury-rigging armor against specific kinds of attacks, and making explosives would be good ways to go.

[Mr.PC0X]

Here's a link to the request a homebrew thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?408530-Request-a-Homebrew-Thread-3) if you want to drop by there.

It's tough to write a subclass in a vacuum like this. The best subclass designs are meant to complement the structure of the base class, like caster subs adding to spell lists, rogue subs integrating with sneak attack, fighter subs sneaking in some utility, etc.

If you're looking for some combat-relevant effects, I think deploying terrain / obstructions, jury-rigging armor against specific kinds of attacks, and making explosives would be good ways to go.

Thank you for the link. I agree, it's hard to create subs in a vacuum. The other subclasses has mechanics I could rework and build off of, but the Engineer is troublesome. I'm struggling to create meaningful subclass features other than Siege Weapon. I figure tehre should be some kind of reinforcement mechanic, and I dabbled in the idea of giving it spells that build things like walls and tunnels but most of those spells are too high level and this class is at best a 3rd caster.

To aid, the Expert Sidekick class is very skill focused and the Engineer requires proficiency with both carpenter's and mason's tools, which admitedly lets them do a lot. So in an effort to avoid starting with a vacuum, seeing as Demolition will be part of the class, and also kinda their primary combat focus, I've had an idea.

At 3rd level (for choosing the subclass) they get advantage on skills checks made using their tools, but they can also craft a number of bombs per day equal to their proficiency bonus, but the bombs become innert in 24 hours?

[Vogie]

For the general "he's going to throw bombs" aspect, I'd look at the Pathfinder 2e Alchemist, specifically the Bomber subclass (https://2e.aonprd.com/Classes.aspx?ID=1). They have a decent setup for a character who is crafting bombs and throwing them around as their basic attacks. It is Pathfinder, so many of the aspects of the bomber will be in the feats subsection, as well as in the "Alchemical bombs (https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?Category=6&Subcategory=7)" section of the equipment list. This will mostly be for inspiration, as the underlying mechanics of PF2e are different enough that it would be hard to do a one-to-one connection.

Remember you can also iterate on the grenade from the DMG and the Explosive seed & blasting powder from Explorer's Guide to Wildemount. There is also a Keg of Alchemist's Fire item that was introduced in Light of Xaryxis, Catapult munition and Alchemist's doom from Strixhaven.

As for general engineering things, you'd have to widen the possible understanding of what an engineer should be able to pull off. I'll have to speak generally as there's no class mechanics to base things off of.


Battlefield manipulation - the Engineer can prefab panels of Walls and barricades that they can then deploy onto a battlefield. We want to make it technically worse and also slightly different then the "Wall of" spells. I think that they should be able to be placed slowly, as the engineer is walking around. Functionally that means they work in 2 different ways - when you're setting an ambush or expecting the creatures to come to you, they can already be in place; when the creatures have a drop on the party, it can still be done, but much slower. Something like "you can move at half speed and use your action to put up a panel in each square you walk through". This also allows other party interactions to come into play - dipping into Monk or Rogue to be able to Dash as a Bonus Action, or being the recipient of a Longstrider or Haste spell will make them better at this. These wall panels will have stats based on the Engineer's stats, so they will scale to a certain extent (things like the Athletics DCs to go over the wall based on the Engineer's Save DC, the AC of the wall, the hardness of the wall based on the proficiency bonus, etc). Walls are harder to climb, limit line of sight, and intercept most missiles (except siege weapons) and manipulate the movement of creatures of sizes (such as blocking large, difficult terrain for huge, and crushed underfoot by gargantuan). Barricades are covered in spikes facing a certain direction, dealing damage to creatures that move up to or climb over them, but are easier to climb. Engineers could have unlimited sandbags, which take an entire action to set up a single one, but could be used as lesser walls during preparations or to quickly hold down a button in a dungeon. There are also things that you could give them access to as rituals, such as alarm or wristpocket, that are explained away as just like they are for artificers.

Tool improvisation - I would build out more things to do with adventuring gear, giving everyone very specific rules to how they can cobble gear together to do whacky things. The reason you would do that is that you can then make the engineer do those things faster or with a single check instead of multiple. So, for example, if it's a known quantity that anyone can make a rope bridge with 3x the distance of rope and 3 grappling hooks over the course of 1 minute, the engineer can then do that as an action. Engineers might use slings as their main ranged weapon, using ball bearings as their main ammo, but also granting their bombs, acid vials, oil, holy water, and alchemist fire longer range. Perhaps they can carry more tools on them - something like "adventuring gear weighs half as much", or that they can just manifest a certain number of pieces of adventuring gear for free a day (not of a quality to sell, of course). Perhaps they have a Thief Rogue-esque ability to interact with items as a bonus action, or to use their gear as a way to get around things - A 10 ft pole as a way to reduce falling damage slightly and to extend the range of their high/long jumps, quick deployment of a ladder (or three) to climb something quickly, being able to accurately throw pitons to mess with doors. The Engineer could also use combinations of gear to do things like combine an explosive with things like Nails, ball bearings or other things to cause more deadly weaponry.

More explosives - since sapping is something that you specifically called out as a desire, that should be baked in. I expect you'd create some magical version of C4 or claymores and some way to trigger them from range. I'm thinking this will be something that would be mechanically like a Twinned Fireball with Sculpted Spell, but of course be completely mundane. These should also be interactable by other classes - if the engineer's detonator fails, for example, give an AC that someone can try to hit with a firebolt or other fire spell to detonate. They shouldn't be one-note either - maybe you have sonic explosives that are better for glass, crystal and marble, ice explosives for frost heaving and non-burning siege damage, and lightning explosives that hurt creatures but not buildings (with greater range if it's attached to something metal, and dealing more damage to those wearing metal armor)

More things to construct - Following the idea of remote triggers, you can add more things that a engineer can create then deploy. A lesser version of the Artillerist's cannon and Battle Smith's steel defender (likely one that can't attack or defend, but could do other things - like an automated familiar more than a pet class) are easy inclusions. Things like a tunnel grinder that could be unleashed to punch a hole in a wall, drill a tunnel or, if pointed just directly at the ground, cause miniature localized earthquakes until it creates a hole in the ground (perfect for shoving creatures into). Thumpers (as from Dune) could be deployed and remotely triggered to distract creatures. I'm envisioning you could keep spinning out this concept until you have a full faux-summoning class, with the caveat that most/all of the things the Engineer deploys don't move. Which sounds silly, but that could mean that as the fight goes longer and longer, the more it looks like every battle that is inexplicably on factories, with various things cluttering the path that deal damage to creatures that get too close. Can they be independently destroyed? Sure, but that means the creatures aren't attacking you & yours.

Tangential abilities - Like Catullus64 said, the engineer should be adept at fighting in their environment. In addition to being able to ignore squeezing, they should gain additional bonuses next to their constructions (such as better AC against ranged attacks when right next to their walls), and fighting in close quarters. I would suggest using the UA Tunnel Fighter and Mariner (+AC, adding climbing & swim speeds) fighting styles, alongside the Thrown Weapon Fighting (bombs!) from Tasha's. Tunnel Fighter, as we know when the UA came out, is broken when used by a class with reach weapons - but I think the Engineer should rely on simple weapons, as well as the ability to use specific adventuring gear as weapons. That's the miner's pick, portable ram, Sledgehammer, torch and crowbar. They'd have larger damage dice than normal improvised weapons, and might have cool secondary abilities depending on how deep you want to go in that direction.