Slow and steady casters?

[JusticeZero]

I'm trying to sort out how to set up the next game. (Pathfinder 1 E6). My intention is a "common magic" setting where magic is common but relatively minor.
One of the usual assumptions is that casters are the clock of the party, with a pool of resources to manage and deplete.
I want to move the clock to healing, by making healing effects more "shuffling HP between party members and trading death for debuffs" so that after some adventuring, they need to med up with amped up downtime healing.
I want spellcasters to be able to throw out effect after effect after effect without worrying about running completely dry, and without them going nova. Are there any subsystems or established alternative rules that achieve that kind of "tortoise, not hare" spellcasting or casting equivalent for more than raw damage?

[JNAProductions]

Invocations can do a lot more than just damage. But I don't think they're fleshed out enough to really work for a whole game.

[icefractal]

Depends on a couple factors:
1) Is decreased book-keeping a desired outcome, or just having the right cadence?
2) How frequently are encounters going to be occurring, in general?

Because for example Recharge Magic (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/rechargeMagic.htm) from Unearthed Arcana might be what you're looking for, but if anything it increases the amount of book-keeping.

In terms of in-combat casting, you might be able to do something as simple as:
"You get one slot of your highest level per encounter, and can use anything below that at-will"

But in terms of casting outside combat, it gets trickier.

[Maat Mons]

I've heard good things about Spheres of Power (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/spheres-of-power/), but I've never looked into it myself.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You're messing with healing, so make spells in combat cost hp due to exertion. Make it something like 3x the spell level, 1 hp for a cantrip. If they cast spells on consecutive rounds, or multiple spells in one round, the previous and current rounds' spell levels are added to the cost of the next spell. So if they cast a 3rd level spell the first round, they also pay 9 hp to cast it. If they then cast a 2nd level spell the second round, they pay 15 hp. If they also cast a 2nd level swift action spell in the second round, they pay another 21 hp for it. Let's say before the third round they cast a 1st level immediate-action spell, that's another 24 hp. If they go a full round without casting any spells, it resets, so it's the least costly to only cast one spell every other round. They could go nova, but it will cost them a resource that's not exactly easy to regain.

[RandomPeasant]

But in terms of casting outside combat, it gets trickier.

IIRC the specific recharges listed with Recharge Magic cover almost everything (at least, for PHB spells). You can just use those with whatever other way of giving casters more sustain you like if the whole system doesn't suit your preference.

The harder problem is what OP wants with healing. I'm not really aware of a system that works like what they're asking for (in 3e). Maybe just ban in-combat healing and call that good enough? I don't really think "I move allied wounds onto myself" is enough to hang a character on, so that seems the simplest solution.

[JNAProductions]

You're messing with healing, so make spells in combat cost hp due to exertion. Make it something like 3x the spell level, 1 hp for a cantrip. If they cast spells on consecutive rounds, or multiple spells in one round, the previous and current rounds' spell levels are added to the cost of the next spell. So if they cast a 3rd level spell the first round, they also pay 9 hp to cast it. If they then cast a 2nd level spell the second round, they pay 15 hp. If they also cast a 2nd level swift action spell in the second round, they pay another 21 hp for it. Let's say before the third round they cast a 1st level immediate-action spell, that's another 24 hp. If they go a full round without casting any spells, it resets, so it's the least costly to only cast one spell every other round. They could go nova, but it will cost them a resource that's not exactly easy to regain.

Wouldn't that make healing too easy?

Cure Light Wounds heals 1d8+1 at level one, meaning you net 2.5 HP on average, and only have a one in eight chance of losing any.
At level two, you'll always at least break even.

[Crake]

I've heard good things about Spheres of Power (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/spheres-of-power/), but I've never looked into it myself.

Seconding spheres of power, with limited access to advanced spheres to help keep in line with the reduced power level of magic

[remetagross]

I'm not PF-literate, but I suppose the following advice would work all the same: have your players only play Warlocks, Dragonfire Adepts, Binders, Truenamers and Shadowcasters. Healing can be taken care of by having everyone have fast healing 1.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wouldn't that make healing too easy?

Cure Light Wounds heals 1d8+1 at level one, meaning you net 2.5 HP on average, and only have a one in eight chance of losing any.
At level two, you'll always at least break even.

They still cost a spell slot, and he said he's changing healing to be moving hp around instead of just healing normally.

[Sneak Dog]

Spheres of Power (SoP) should work for casters. It's pretty good at letting casters coast on when low or out of spell points. They'll be weakened, but fine. This is as most stuff casters can do don't cost spell points by default, but require either concentrating on as standard actions (or move if you grab the right thingy) or a spell point for the more powerful variation.
Most of the healing in SoP is in the life sphere. Replace it with something of your own making, blanket ban all other healing to boot and you should be good to go.

Here's the two pages to introduce people to Spheres of Power:
http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/using-spheres-of-power
http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/how-to-build-a-spherecaster

[Gnaeus]

I've heard good things about Spheres of Power (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/spheres-of-power/), but I've never looked into it myself.

Also heard nothing but good things re spheres of power. But also the Pf Dreamscarred press supplements for path of war and Akashic Magic are good. Vizier and Mystic, for example, are both sorcerer types that don't run out of juice, zealots and rajahs are good healers, etc.

[Bohandas]

I'm trying to sort out how to set up the next game. (Pathfinder 1 E6). My intention is a "common magic" setting where magic is common but relatively minor.
One of the usual assumptions is that casters are the clock of the party, with a pool of resources to manage and deplete.
I want to move the clock to healing, by making healing effects more "shuffling HP between party members and trading death for debuffs" so that after some adventuring, they need to med up with amped up downtime healing.
I want spellcasters to be able to throw out effect after effect after effect without worrying about running completely dry, and without them going nova. Are there any subsystems or established alternative rules that achieve that kind of "tortoise, not hare" spellcasting or casting equivalent for more than raw damage?

I don't know about Pathfinder, but 3.5e D&D has reserve feats and Warlocks both of which allow for use of a limited number of effects ad nauseum

[noce]

Warlocks, Dragonfire Adepts, Binders and Truenamers have been already mentioned.
Another example could be Swordsage.

Take these as different base ideas, maybe for different spell levels.
Warlocks and DFA can cast at will, which is also true for Truenamers but they suffer an increased chance of failure each time.
Binders have a 5 rounds recharge time.
Swordsages can spend a turn to recharge a single spell.

Maybe apply these rules to arcane casters, with a different rule for each spell level?

[JusticeZero]

These are all good, I'm leaning towards PoW and some of the others.
I just have bad memories of the not one but three games where I was playing support casters, got through three encounters of protecting and healing the party, burning up every spell slot, and asked for rest - only to have the martials go "Okay, you rest here, we're going on" and spending the next few hours finishing the adventure without me.

[Maat Mons]

Well, I hope you learned your lesson, teamwork is for suckers.

[Gnaeus]

These are all good, I'm leaning towards PoW and some of the others.
I just have bad memories of the not one but three games where I was playing support casters, got through three encounters of protecting and healing the party, burning up every spell slot, and asked for rest - only to have the martials go "Okay, you rest here, we're going on" and spending the next few hours finishing the adventure without me.

So, here is my warning re DSP. I love it. My group uses it, a lot. Most anything in DSP is on the high end of Tier 3. So, on one hand, there are only a few absolute game breakers. No one is going to be making super undead in your E6 game or anything. But I would not want to play a monk or a swashbuckler in a game with DSP classes. And like a high tier caster you want to review the exact abilities your players have and craft encounters accordingly. Like, theres a power that lets a POW user become incorporeal for a round at will. Thats not game breaking, UNLESS you have a railroad style dungeon that depends on the players going left until they find the key to open the door to the right, where a character can walk through the wall and open the door. The stare of the ghaele veil for vizier is another strong one. With the bind, its basically slow as an at will. Thats maybe not insane, E6 sorcerers can get Slow and spam it. But if you are playing E6 in part because you like running melee brutes at a time where they are still meaningful it can be disconcerting that by round 3 every NPC is staggered. Most of them are actually pretty well balanced compared to, for example, the 6 level PF casting classes played at a reasonable optimization level. But a swashbuckler will feel bad and a fighter or barbarian may feel compelled to take PoW options. (On the + side, like ToB, PoW is very multiclass friendly and weaker classes can get a big boost by dipping one or 2 levels, especially at level 5 or 6).

[Vaern]

Maybe consider looking into 5e's warlock and implementing something similar to your game's casters. Unlike most spellcasters who may have a large number of spell slots spread across various spell levels that they only regain after a proper 8-hour rest, the warlock only has a couple of spell slots of their highest level which are restored after a short rest (a 5-10 minute break outside of an encounter). The fact that have so few spell slots means you don't need to worry about them burning a large number of spells to quickly blast their way through combat, but their fast rate of recovery means they'll never need to worry about the adventuring day being cut off due to running out of spells. They effectively have a "spells per encounter" limit rather than a "spells per day" limit.

[JNAProductions]

Maybe consider looking into 5e's warlock and implementing something similar to your game's casters. Unlike most spellcasters who may have a large number of spell slots spread across various spell levels that they only regain after a proper 8-hour rest, the warlock only has a couple of spell slots of their highest level which are restored after a short rest (a 5-10 minute break outside of an encounter). The fact that have so few spell slots means you don't need to worry about them burning a large number of spells to quickly blast their way through combat, but their fast rate of recovery means they'll never need to worry about the adventuring day being cut off due to running out of spells. They effectively have a "spells per encounter" limit rather than a "spells per day" limit.

Not QUITE accurate-a short rest is an hour, not five to ten minutes.

But adjusting a short rest to that length and working with homebrew under that timeframe would be a good idea.

[Vaern]

Not QUITE accurate-a short rest is an hour, not five to ten minutes.

But adjusting a short rest to that length and working with homebrew under that timeframe would be a good idea.

I could've sworn it was much shorter. Maybe I'm thinking of 4E's short rests?

*Edit* Yep, I was thinking of 4E. "About 5 minutes long, a short rest consists of stretching your muscles and catching your breath after an encounter."

[JNAProductions]

I could've sworn it was much shorter. Maybe I'm thinking of 4E's short rests? Or maybe just what the general "cooldown" time is considered to be for 4E's encounter powers?

Yeah, you’re thinking 4E with that.

[Gnaeus]

Theres an optional rule for 5 minute short rests