[3.5]Help me complete our team...

[Kaal Meryje]

...so we don't die horribly like the last time.

Hello,

After years of hiatus, I've finally found some people to play! A coworker, his wife, my girlfriend and me are the players. Another coworker is the DM.

The DM agreed to run the game on one condition: play D&D3.5, the version he know the most. But ONLY Core+Complete Arcane, Complete Warrior, Complete Adventurer, Complete divine,Complete mage and some rules from UA (I need to ask for Flaws).

I'm the only player who ever played in D&D3.5. The other are a bit experienced in other role-playing game. They mostly don't care about optimization and planification (but that last part changed with my help) .

We play The Temple Of Elemental Evil. Not the Return, but the original ADD one. The one filled with save or die traps and monster.

Let's say it's been... Quite an journey. For example the DM never let us "chose" magic item of even basic items!
Scroll ? Potions? Wand? You can always ask if they have them in Hommlet, but except for some (rare!) healing potion... NOPE! also nobody in town really want to help us. The price are outrageous and so on.
It's sometimes feel like a grind (but we all laugh around the table, that what's important), we had our scare magic stuff stolen once in Nulb, lost some characters, fled a bazillion times and finally...

We all died when we set foot into the Temple... freaking Stirges.

Sooooooo, we're all making new character, starting lvl4! And the other have already set their choice!
A dwarf paladin
A human druid
A human Dex Fighter

I think we need a caster of some sort. Because the campaign will end around lvl 7-8, and the limited amount of books available, I was thinking:

Human Sorcerer, simple, but witch feat ?
Halfling Warmage: more blasting and damage than the sorcerer, given our low level
Human Warlock: good for long days without rest, some power can help control the battlefield, spider legs can be useful..
Why no wizard? I think they really shine lvl10+, and I prefer the sorcerer instant flexibility, I don't like to chose my spell every day (I hated that part on my cleric, I always feel like another spell would have been better)

What do you think ? I'm open to everything, unlike my DM :p

[satorian]

Sorcerers are a lot of fun, but for this game I'd go Bard. You get some arcane spells, but what the party really needs to survive TOEE is skills and knowledges. Your party doesn't have either. Also, since you're the experienced one, your bard can buff other characters so that they have more fun hitting more often with their +2s.

[Kaal Meryje]

That's.... A REALLY good point !! thank you, we'll lack AOE damage but skillmonkey for the win

I'll ask if I can make a bard.

The first time the DM banned bard (and monk...?!) Because they're "kind of hard to play for new players"... Fortunately I'm not one.

[Telonius]

Even with a Bard as a decent skillmonkey, you'll need some way to get Trapfinding. If the trap has DC of over 20, you usually can't detect it at all without the feature. The "Find Traps" spell helps with that, but it's Clr 2 and you don't have any Clerics.

With that limited list of sources, you're probably down to dropping a level in Rogue, Ninja, Scout, or Spellthief. (Beguiler would be great for a Bard-ish feel in a full class, but that's PHB2).

[Kaal Meryje]

Yeah... I would love to have a Beguiler :(

So... I think I'll take a Rogue without Sneak attack (UA variant) for my first level. It's that or a Human paragon :/

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Honestly, just go Beguiler 5/ Mindbender 1/ Beguiler 14 for your build, in that order. Nothing you'll get from multiclassing is worth losing levels of spellcasting for. Beguiler can find traps and gets all the right class skills to fill the role of the rogue.

[satorian]

Honestly, just go Beguiler 5/ Mindbender 1/ Beguiler 14 for your build, in that order. Nothing you'll get from multiclassing is worth losing levels of spellcasting for. Beguiler can find traps and gets all the right class skills to fill the role of the rogue.

PHB2 isn't on his allowed list. No Beguiler.

[pabelfly]

I'd suggest Spontaneous Cleric, since you don't like preparing spells. The Spontaneous version of Cleric is in Unearthed Arcana. You get a set spell list, and you'll be behind a level in spellcasting, like Sorcerer, but you get the Cleric spell list, so you can pull healing duties. There are feats and domains to get you some blasting spells, if you want more versatility and want something to do in combat besides buff and healing.

[Pugwampy]

I myself prefer specialist healers and barbarians . You dont need anything else .

Honourable mention to a sorcerer or a fighter specializing in archery is an amazing range damage option.

[Anthrowhale]

Rogue 1/Bard n has access to Improvisation which provides +caster level/2(Luck) to 4 skill checks within round/level.

Rogue 1/Cloistered Cleric n has access to Divine Insight which provides +5+caster level(Insight) to a single skill check within hour/level

For race, something with darkvision may be good. Maybe a Deep Halfling (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfling.htm#deepHalfling) to avoid a Cha penalty?

[Kaal Meryje]

Yeah, cleric are always good, I played one last time, and it was really good, she was the tank, buffer and healer. Up until we lost the barbarian in Nulb, the two were the backbone of the group !

That's why I don't want to play another cleric right now...

I hope the Druid can buff/control a bit, and emergency heal (same for the paladin, even if it's not great).

[Telonius]

Hmm, if you're going to be doing any "Barbarian Trapfinding," maybe suggest the "Summon Elemental" feat from Complete Mage to the Druid. Won't turn on until Level 9 (if that's an issue), and Reserve Feats are usually underpowered. But being able to send out an endless supply of expendable minions 30 feet ahead in a trap-heavy dungeon could be extremely useful.

It's from Complete Mage, so within the accepted sources.

[Anthrowhale]

I hope the Druid can buff/control a bit, and emergency heal (same for the paladin, even if it's not great).

In the top-10 lists (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?661419-Top-10-level-9-spells#post25892758) I've been working on, the set of druid spells intersected with allowed sources is:
L0 Detect Magic
L1 Entangle, Lesser Vigor
L3 Heart of Water
L4 Last Breath
Your limited sources hits hard, but Eggynack's list (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?439991-Being-Everything-Eggynack-s-Comprehensive-Druid-Handbook) may help further.

[Kaal Meryje]

Thank you for your advices and link! It'll help the druid :D

As for me, I think I'll go with a first level of rogue. Mostly for the skills and skill points, I've always found sneak attack a bit hard to land without dying right after, and unreliable. I was thinking of using the UA variant with the Feat instead.

Buuuuuut, the daggerspell mage, albeit not good, offer some "roguish" skills, keep concentration and knowledge mysteries.The dagger part is useless but the SA can be useful (if I learn how to use them)

All that for one level of magic and two feat you'd never take on a caster...

It's not an optimal choice. But what do you think of something like rogue1/warmage4/DsM ?

Why warmage? I was thinking warlock first (for flavor reason, I wanted to play a mischievous fey themed warlock before realizing the group would miss some AoE damages) but if I'm going to max skills, I go for INT. Why not add the mod to my damage? The campaign will on level 7-8 anyway.


Remember, it'll not be the most awesome build, if it's just "good" or "okay" that will do. None of my mate have optimised character. The fighter will be a two rapier wielder, the paladin wants a warhammer for the cool factor and I'm pretty sure the druid just want to morph into a bear to wreck thing (she played the barbarian before :) )

[Anthrowhale]

It's not an optimal choice. But what do you think of something like rogue1/warmage4/DsM ?

It's rough, because you're 3 levels of spell access behind a straight cleric/wizard. By ECL8, you still don't even have 3rd level spells.

Would you consider Unseen Seer instead? You probably want the skills anyways and it has a lower/no feat tax. Entering with a Warmage is tricky, but you could for example use Arcane Disciple to get an extra divination spell on list (you already have Truestrike).

[Elkad]

T...I've always found sneak attack a bit hard to land without dying right after, and unreliable...

Obviously I'm not at your table, but it should be as easy as just flanking with the barbarian, or the paladin, or the druid's bear. And you should have Tumble to get into position easily.

Since they are new, you might have to remind them a bit. Including suggesting they step around the monster a bit to make your own positioning easier. (both of you to the sides, instead of expecting you to circle around to the back)

[Troacctid]

I like warmage a lot in dungeon crawls, and if you go that direction then you should definitely check out the warmage handbook in my signature. That said, I don't think daggerspell mage is a great direction to take it. My preferred warmage prestige options from your legal sources (keeping in mind I haven't played the campaign before) would be mage of the arcane order, divine oracle, or maaaybe sublime chord, and rely mostly on spells rather than skills for your party's needs. (Human paragon would also be fine.)

If someone in the party is multiclassing rogue, I think it clearly ought to be the Dex fighter. It's a much more natural combination.

[Pugwampy]

Build a Half Orc Barbarian for the honour of Luthic .

[Quentinas]

I know that is probably an inpopular choice , but what about a spellthief? He loses much not having the trickster variant from dragon magazine 353 or the master spellthief from complete scoundrel , but if i remember well the temple of elemental evil other than many traps there are many spellcaster and you should be able to steal from them. Maybe it's weak as choice but it could be interesting if you coordinate with your druid

[Kaal Meryje]

I like warmage a lot in dungeon crawls, and if you go that direction then you should definitely check out the warmage handbook in my signature. That said, I don't think daggerspell mage is a great direction to take it. My preferred warmage prestige options from your legal sources (keeping in mind I haven't played the campaign before) would be mage of the arcane order, divine oracle, or maaaybe sublime chord, and rely mostly on spells rather than skills for your party's needs. (Human paragon would also be fine.)

If someone in the party is multiclassing rogue, I think it clearly ought to be the Dex fighter. It's a much more natural combination.

Your guides are really cool, thank you.

The "Core" build you have in your warmage guide is perfect: Simple, good for a dungeon crawl adventure and really suit the limited books we have.

Speaking of which, I forgot to say we're in Faerun, the player guide to Faerun join the available sources!
It means Stronheart halfling are in.

What feat do you suggest ?

For reference, the build l'm talking about is:
Coremage (Core + CAr only)
Halfling Warmage X
1: Improved Initiative
3: Combat Casting, Advanced Learning (Tenser's floating disk)
6: Extra Edge, Advanced Learning (Leomund's tiny hut)

[Troacctid]

Your guides are really cool, thank you.

The "Core" build you have in your warmage guide is perfect: Simple, good for a dungeon crawl adventure and really suit the limited books we have.

Speaking of which, I forgot to say we're in Faerun, the player guide to Faerun join the available sources!
It means Stronheart halfling are in.

What feat do you suggest ?

For reference, the build l'm talking about is:
Coremage (Core + CAr only)
Halfling Warmage X
1: Improved Initiative
3: Combat Casting, Advanced Learning (Tenser's floating disk)
6: Extra Edge, Advanced Learning (Leomund's tiny hut)
I would take a regional feat as the bonus. Bloodline of Fire, Dreadful Wrath, and Mercantile Background are probably the big standouts. You could also browse the feats section and find something in your allowed sources that looks cool.

Edit: Ask your DM if you can be a Spellguard of Silverymoon. If so, it's worth picking a Silverymoon regional feat (either Blooded or Education) instead, just to establish your backstory there. It's a fantastic prestige class for this particular build.

[Eldariel]

You don't have a Cleric. Play a Cleric. They're seriously awesome, especially early on (hell, you could get Persistent spells like healing by thus point!). Just get well acquainted with their spell list; this conveniently lets you skillmonkey too (UA Cloistered Cleric is a gimme here; if you can get the Kobold-domain, go for it, but even without it you have the mentioned Find Traps). Skill Knowledge in Unearthed Arcana could let you get the skill in class, even, though on this level you could even cross-class Disable Device and Search (don't forget to buy a decent Int). For the rest, Cleric spells have you covered: you have Complete Divine, you're golden!

Also, to be fair, Wizards shine from level 1! It's not a bad pick either. Rogue/Wizard works great with these sources: Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer X is the ultimate Rogue/Wizard with an immense skillpool. It really hurts to lose the caster level, but you still have 2nd level spells on start and 3rd level spells soon enough (they're the big jump-off). And your massive Int means you are ridiculously good at doing Rogue-stuff (and have an absolutely absurd amount of skillpoints on level 1 with (8+Int)x4 for like 13x4 = 52) and you even have Sneak Attack to do slight damage with e.g. Rays or the like!


As for spell prep, there is a system to it! Prepare a set of generally useful spells. Like a level 3 Wizard with 20 Int and specialization (say Conjuration) could have the following:
0. Detect Magic, Read Magic, etc.
1. Mage Armor, Color Spray, Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Silent Image
2. Glitterdust, Web, X (could be e.g. Invisibility, Levitate, or something else that's generally useful, or a second copy of either slot, or even left open to re-prep stuff in there later)

This'll have you covered for most purposes, and even when not, it can give you something that's probably at least useful (and you can always fire your trusty Light Crossbow at targets when you don't want to waste spells, which is most of the time; typically 1-2 spells per encounter suffices). The thing is not to think of the perfect spell; you need at least one good way to solve each encounter, not a hundred options for each one.

[Kaal Meryje]

Edit: Ask your DM if you can be a Spellguard of Silverymoon. If so, it's worth picking a Silverymoon regional feat (either Blooded or Education) instead, just to establish your backstory there. It's a fantastic prestige class for this particular build.

That's a good idea but I doubt we will past lvl 8 in this campaign :)


You don't have a Cleric. Play a Cleric.

Yeah I know cleric are awesome, but i want to change, i mostly played cleric before



Also, to be fair, Wizards shine from level 1! It's not a bad pick either. Rogue/Wizard works great with these sources: Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer X is the ultimate Rogue/Wizard with an immense skillpool. It really hurts to lose the caster level, but you still have 2nd level spells on start and 3rd level spells soon enough (they're the big jump-off). And your massive Int means you are ridiculously good at doing Rogue-stuff (and have an absolutely absurd amount of skillpoints on level 1 with (8+Int)x4 for like 13x4 = 52) and you even have Sneak Attack to do slight damage with e.g. Rays or the like!


As for spell prep, there is a system to it! Prepare a set of generally useful spells. Like a level 3 Wizard with 20 Int and specialization (say Conjuration) could have the following:
0. Detect Magic, Read Magic, etc.
1. Mage Armor, Color Spray, Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Silent Image
2. Glitterdust, Web, X (could be e.g. Invisibility, Levitate, or something else that's generally useful, or a second copy of either slot, or even left open to re-prep stuff in there later)

This'll have you covered for most purposes, and even when not, it can give you something that's probably at least useful (and you can always fire your trusty Light Crossbow at targets when you don't want to waste spells, which is most of the time; typically 1-2 spells per encounter suffices). The thing is not to think of the perfect spell; you need at least one good way to solve each encounter, not a hundred options for each one.

Thank you for your advises, but I'll let another one take the role of the "skilled one" and simply blast things away this time :D

[Anthrowhale]

Bloodline of Fire

This one is nice for bigger booms.