Excluding artificer what is the best build for item creation

[incog64]

I am thinking about taking Leadership at Level 6 and I wanted an artificer but DM said no because we aren't in Eberron, we are in Greyhawk.

That being said what is a build that is good at item creation that isn't Artificer?

UPDATED
Thanks everyone. Here are my initial thoughts.

Feats TBD but I am thinking practiced caster for a +4 arcane caster level (capped at my total level)

Race: Gnome
L1 Bard
L2 Bard
L3 Wizard (Probably Disciple of Boccob) +1 Cater level for Crafting and Crafting Feats)
L4 Wizard
L5 Wizard
L6 Maestro (Complete Adventurer variant, p. 56) Quick Crafting and other Goodies
L7 Master of Masks (Complete Scoundrel variant, p. 52) +2 Caster Level via Persona Mask
The rest some combination Of Maestro and Ultimate Magus (Complete Mage variant, p. 77).

Thoughts?

Thanks.

[Metastachydium]

Straight Warlock 11 with UMD on steroids and as many item creation feats as you can fit, albeit I do realize that's not really helpful at level 6 on a cohort.

[AvatarVecna]

It kinda depends what in particular you're looking for. Nobody but artificer and warlock really care about skill checks for item creation, because they use it to mimic spells they don't know. Any other crafter, and you either know the spell, or you don't. So the "best crafter" is gonna depend on exactly what you're looking for.

Human Cleric 4 has access to all lvl 0-2 spells on the cleric list, three or five feats to work with (depending on flaws), and can pick up Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat via domains. Craft Wondrous at lvl 3 will give you access to most items in the game and open the door for making at-will/continuous items of cleric spells, which is chock full of powerful buff spells...provided your DM allows custom stuff, anyway.

On the arcane side, things are unfortunately more limited. Factotum 4 can acquire access to all 0-1 lvl spells from the sor/wiz list, and is probably your best bet, but they don't get any bonus feats. Wizard 4 has access to all 0th lvl sor/wiz spells, and at least five lvl 1/four lvl 2 spells. Money and feats can be spent acquiring access to more wizard spells than that, but both of those can also be spent on crafting instead, so YMMV.

[Troacctid]

I would go for cleric. The cleric spell list is good for crafting, and if you take the Magic domain, you can pay a little extra to patch in the spells you're missing via scrolls.

[Tohron]

Magic domain also lets you patch in lower-level spells you're missing via Anyspell/Lesser Anyspell, so you can save on scrolls.

[AvatarVecna]

Magic domain also lets you patch in lower-level spells you're missing via Anyspell/Lesser Anyspell, so you can save on scrolls.

Magic Domain doesn't have Anyspell, you're thinking of Spell domain. Although nothing stopping you from taking both. Anyspell is also a lvl 3 spell, so it wouldn't quite be available yet. It does open up some nice options though; it requires having a scroll or spellbook of the spell on hand, so this would be a way to use a scroll of something to power the creation of an at-will/continuous item of an arcane spell.

[Metastachydium]

Oh! A random thought: if you are tired of having your sanity intact, you might try a Sha'ir. They can, well, theoretically access lots of spells from lots of places.


Wizard 4 has access to all 0th lvl sor/wiz spells, and at least five lvl 1/four lvl 2 spells. Money and feats can be spent acquiring access to more wizard spells than that, but both of those can also be spent on crafting instead, so YMMV.

I mean, Leadership also gives followers. One may try raiding a magical school in hope of picking up a few Wizards with Collegiate Wizard and the complimentary Scribe Scroll, which increases the range of spell access drastically.

[AvatarVecna]

I mean, Leadership also gives followers. One may try raiding a magical school in hope of picking up a few Wizards with Collegiate Wizard and the complimentary Scribe Scroll, which increases the range of spell access drastically.

The issue here is the level this is happening at. Presuming that DM allowed OP to pick their followers the same way they're picking their cohort, yes you could get a bunch of Wizard 1s. Issue is, those wizards only have access to lvl 0-1 spells. If you could get a bunch of Wizard 3s, you could put 2nd lvl spells on the table, at which point it's arguably worth it. But if they're only capable of lvl 1 spells currently...well, a factotum cohort has theoretical access to all lvl 1 wizard spells, so we wouldn't really need to raid a wizard college for followers (assuming that's a thing OP is allowed to do).

On the arcane side of things, the choice right now is "all lvl 1 spells" vs "some lvl 1, but also some lvl 2". Having the second side include more 1st lvl spells (but still not all of them) is only marginally helpful. I'll admit though that wizard cohort is probably the better choice in the long-run because they'll get access to new spell levels faster than Factotum will.

[Chronos]

Also a reminder that multiple characters can collaborate to make magic items, and each prerequisite only needs to be had by one of them. So if you have a cohort with the Craft Widget feat, and you or any of your other party-mates has access to the Spell of Resplendence, then you can cooperate to make a widget that requires resplendence.

This can also be used to spread out the XP costs associated with crafting, if you'd like.

[Metastachydium]

The issue here is the level this is happening at. Presuming that DM allowed OP to pick their followers the same way they're picking their cohort, yes you could get a bunch of Wizard 1s. Issue is, those wizards only have access to lvl 0-1 spells. If you could get a bunch of Wizard 3s, you could put 2nd lvl spells on the table, at which point it's arguably worth it. But if they're only capable of lvl 1 spells currently...well, a factotum cohort has theoretical access to all lvl 1 wizard spells, so we wouldn't really need to raid a wizard college for followers (assuming that's a thing OP is allowed to do).

You misunderstand! I'm talking Cleric cohort, for all Cleric spells from levels 0–2, and 5+ (the minimum amount the feat's description specifies) Wizards (with Collegiate Wizard) for all cantrips and 35+ level 1 Wizard spells in addition to that. Also, it's not like hitting a Leadership score of 15 at level 6 requires insane investments. A CHA of 18 and a single Marshal dip does the job in itself, assuming the PC is "fair and generous". And that's already all cantrips, 190+ 1st and 6+ 2nd level Wizard spells.

Admittedly, that does take building for, so yeah. A Factotum cohort and a couple Cleric followers may have more bang on the short run.

[Menzath]

For an item creation follower are you looking for something good for the short term/your current levels, or would this be something planned for the long term going into higher levels 14+?

If you are going long term a warlock might be preferable. Short term any caster that can get expanded spell lists without using feats.

If long term and cheese is allowed. A neraph wiz/master transmogrifist8 who PAO's himself into a Midgard dwarf. This gets you free item creation feats through an extraordinary quality(hence master transmog.) and can

They are considered to possess the prerequisites necessary to craft any magic item of those types, even if they do not otherwise meet the requirements or have the ability to cast the necessary spells. for the given feats.
So caster level, spells, skills, race, etc. They just ignore and craft.

This would mean by about level 14 or so when it comes online if you have the money or a method you could craft epic level gear.

Edit: follower level 14, so about 15+ for the PC.

[AvatarVecna]

You misunderstand! I'm talking Cleric cohort, for all Cleric spells from levels 0–2, and 5+ (the minimum amount the feat's description specifies) Wizards (with Collegiate Wizard) for all cantrips and 35+ level 1 Wizard spells in addition to that. Also, it's not like hitting a Leadership score of 15 at level 6 requires insane investments. A CHA of 18 and a single Marshal dip does the job in itself, assuming the PC is "fair and generous". And that's already all cantrips, 190+ 1st and 6+ 2nd level Wizard spells.

Admittedly, that does take building for, so yeah. A Factotum cohort and a couple Cleric followers may have more bang on the short run.

That makes a bit more sense. A cleric (probably of magic/spell domains) with a bunch of wizard followers is probably the best deal you'll get out of this, but short-term and long-term. And it's probably a good idea to get a bunch of followers that can craft to take proper advantage of the XP-sharing thing mentioned upthread.

That said, hitting LS 15 is a bit harder. For starters, we don't know if OP's build even has good Charisma; it's helpful, but not strictly necessary to have high Cha to break Leadership, because the feat is just that good. But also, Leadership isn't a Charisma-based check. There is one (1) item in a late splat that gives a +5 to all Charisma-based checks ("including Leadership"), but that item being poorly written does not change your Leadership score into a check, Charisma-based or otherwise. It's not a check, it's a score, and one item incorrectly referring to it as a check does not make it so.

It's possible a DM might be convinced to allow it, but it's definitely a ruling and not a default reading. I'm also kinda skeptical of how likely a DM is to make Leadership easier to max out by allowing things like Marshal and Circlet Of Persuasion to apply; even if they agree it's a check by RAW for some reason, they'd be likely to rule against it. I'd generally expect a DM to allow the hat to apply, but not other things applying to Charisma checks.

[Thunder999]

Warlocks with Imbue Item are the only ones who can quite match the Artificer's ability to just make anything that exists.

This is one area where the otherwise sub-par Mystic Theurge type builds would also shine, letting you get the necessary spells from multiple spell lists. Rainbow Servant works too.
Archivist can probably get most of them.

[Another Handle]

Straight Warlock 11 with UMD on steroids and as many item creation feats as you can fit, albeit I do realize that's not really helpful at level 6 on a cohort.
Specifically Human Warlock into Chameleon PrC 2 for the floating feat, can craft everything. Useless for another 8+ levels though.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Straight erudite psion 20, or (if you start out at higher levels) psion/whatever PrCs you want with an erudite follower, cohort, or other friendly NPC with access to psychic chirurgery. Don't forget to grab the Magic mantle, just in case.

Access to all Craft skills as class skills. Access to all psionic powers as potential powers known. Access to all arcane spells as potential powers known. Access to all divine spells (converted to arcane spells through many and varied means) as potential powers known. Access to lots of crafting feats that can be swapped out easily via psychic reformation at and after level 7. The skills can, as well.

Basically, if it can be crafted by any arcane, divine, or psionic class, this can do it, too.

Oh, and the Sanctum Spell feat could possibly allow your erudite to learn spells as powers of the same level, rather than at a level higher, since outside the sanctum they count as 1 level lower, and +1 - 1 = +0...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Warlock 12/ Chameleon 2, Item Familiar (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) using invested skill ranks to boost UMD. That's +17 for ranks and +17 for the invested skill ranks at that level, plus Cha and whatever other bonuses you may get. At level 20, it's +23 ranks and +23 invested bonus.

Chameleon gets a floating feat, so on any given day you can pick whatever item creation feat you need for the item you're making that day.

Maybe take Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Magic Arms/Armor normally so you can take Craft Construct with that floating feat when needed.

Don't make the character a human, use Alter Self to become a human, and you'll gain the bonus feat and skill ranks that a Human normally gets. "You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include.... racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats..." Each time you cast Alter Self you can turn into a different human and pick a different feat and assign those skill ranks differently. Pretty much any skill can be gained as a class skill through at least one feat, so this gets you any skill requirement and/or any feat requirement to make any item as well.

[Bohandas]

At the cost of automatic access to spells the Archivist divine spellcasting class from Heroes of Horror gains the ability to learn spells (wizard style, not sorcerer style) from ANY divine spellcasting class by copying scrolls

[Troacctid]

I am thinking about taking Leadership at Level 6 and I wanted an artificer but DM said no because we aren't in Eberron, we are in Greyhawk.

That being said what is a build that is good at item creation that isn't Artificer?

UPDATED
Thanks everyone. Here are my initial thoughts.

Feats TBD but I am thinking practiced caster for a +4 arcane caster level (capped at my total level)

Race: Gnome
L1 Bard
L2 Bard
L3 Wizard (Probably Disciple of Boccob) +1 Cater level for Crafting and Crafting Feats)
L4 Wizard
L5 Wizard
L6 Maestro (Complete Adventurer variant, p. 56) Quick Crafting and other Goodies
L7 Master of Masks (Complete Scoundrel variant, p. 52) +2 Caster Level via Persona Mask
The rest some combination Of Maestro and Ultimate Magus (Complete Mage variant, p. 77).

Thoughts?

Thanks.
What is the intent behind the bard + master of masks detour? It seems orthogonal (if not actively detrimental) to the crafting premise.

[incog64]

What is the intent behind the bard + master of masks detour? It seems orthogonal (if not actively detrimental) to the crafting premise.

The two levels in Bard allow me to prestige into Ultimate Magus and Master of Masks allow me to increase my Arcane Caster Level by 2.

[Metastachydium]

The two levels in Bard allow me to prestige into Ultimate Magus and Master of Masks allow me to increase my Arcane Caster Level by 2.

Why not Beguiler, then?

[incog64]

Why not Beguiler, then?

We play with XP penalities for multi-classing and since Bard is a favored class of gnome. It makes multi-classing easier.

[Troacctid]

We play with XP penalities for multi-classing and since Bard is a favored class of gnome. It makes multi-classing easier.
For a 2X/3Y configuration, it shouldn't matter, since none of the character's base class levels are ever more than 1 level apart. No multiclass penalties would be incurred in either case.

[incog64]

For a 2X/3Y configuration, it shouldn't matter, since none of the character's base class levels are ever more than 1 level apart. No multiclass penalties would be incurred in either case.

If I do 2 levels of beguiler vs 2 levels of bard is there a big difference. I assumed you meant 1 level of bequiler and 4 of wizard.

[Chronos]

Quoth Another Handle:

Specifically Human Warlock into Chameleon PrC 2 for the floating feat, can craft everything.
Well, not quite anything. Some magic items require multiple feats. But yeah, almost all of them.

There's also a Binder vestige from one of the web enhancements that gives you an item-crafting feat temporarily (which you can change when you rebind vestiges), but that requires more investment than the two levels of Chameleon, and can't be used for anything but item creation feats (there are lots of shenanigans you can pull with a Chameleon's floating feat).

[Metastachydium]

That said, hitting LS 15 is a bit harder. For starters, we don't know if OP's build even has good Charisma; it's helpful, but not strictly necessary to have high Cha to break Leadership, because the feat is just that good. But also, Leadership isn't a Charisma-based check. There is one (1) item in a late splat that gives a +5 to all Charisma-based checks ("including Leadership"), but that item being poorly written does not change your Leadership score into a check, Charisma-based or otherwise. It's not a check, it's a score, and one item incorrectly referring to it as a check does not make it so.

It's possible a DM might be convinced to allow it, but it's definitely a ruling and not a default reading. I'm also kinda skeptical of how likely a DM is to make Leadership easier to max out by allowing things like Marshal and Circlet Of Persuasion to apply; even if they agree it's a check by RAW for some reason, they'd be likely to rule against it. I'd generally expect a DM to allow the hat to apply, but not other things applying to Charisma checks.

Fair enough. But maybe if the PC took out a HUGE loan to buy an Admiral's BicorneStorm…


We play with XP penalities for multi-classing and since Bard is a favored class of gnome. It makes multi-classing easier.

My sympathies! That sounds awful. I really thought nobody does that.


For a 2X/3Y configuration, it shouldn't matter, since none of the character's base class levels are ever more than 1 level apart. No multiclass penalties would be incurred in either case.


If I do 2 levels of beguiler vs 2 levels of bard is there a big difference.

Is that a question? If so, INT synergy? Vastly more spells? Skills that are just as good? Need I go on?

[Maat Mons]

With that Bard 2 / Wizard 3 / Maester 1 / Master of Masks 1 build, you have access to 1st level spells from Bard and 2nd level spells from Wizard. Your caster level can be higher, from Practiced Spellcaster and Archmage Mask, but I’d consider that much less important. Caster level is only a prerequisite on the +X part of weapons and armor. For everything else, the caster level listed is just a “typical” value, not a requirement.

[incog64]

With that Bard 2 / Wizard 3 / Maester 1 / Master of Masks 1 build, you have access to 1st level spells from Bard and 2nd level spells from Wizard. Your caster level can be higher, from Practiced Spellcaster and Archmage Mask, but I’d consider that much less important. Caster level is only a prerequisite on the +X part of weapons and armor. For everything else, the caster level listed is just a “typical” value, not a requirement.

This guy is a cohort so is going to be two levels behind. I want the caster level bonuses so he can qualify for crafter feats faster.

[incog64]

Fair enough. But maybe if the PC took out a HUGE loan to buy an Admiral's BicorneStorm…



My sympathies! That sounds awful. I really thought nobody does that.





Is that a question? If so, INT synergy? Vastly more spells? Skills that are just as good? Need I go on?

To be specfiic he is going to be a bardic sage so there is Int synergy. Also this guy will be doing "research" into legendary and magical places in addition to crafting so the bardic knowledge will be more helpful.

[Troacctid]

An easy way to get a high caster level if you're in Greyhawk is to take the Celestial Scion (Naelax) regional feat, which will give you a true seeing ability with a caster level of 16. That lets you qualify right away for whatever crafting feats you want.

[Metastachydium]

To be specfiic he is going to be a bardic sage so there is Int synergy.

Bardic Sage is technically dual casting stat (INT/CHA), though.


Also this guy will be doing "research" into legendary and magical places in addition to crafting so the bardic knowledge will be more helpful.

I love Lore abilities and will sometimes try to hoard them (Cloistered Cleric/Savant/Bard anyone?), but ultimately, investing into those fancy Knowledge skills might serve one better in such a capacity, given how Bardic Knowledge scales with Bard level and you're only dipping. (And yes, Beguiler doesn't have all Knowledge skills as such, but if legendary and magical places is what you're into, it has just the right ones.)