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Altair_the_Vexed
2007-12-11, 04:25 PM
One of the other dozen or so spiked chain threads reminded me...

I've been looking over my old Oriental Adventures book, and I noticed the spiked chain from the PHB totally beats all the real-world chain weapons that OA models. It does lots more damage.

I was thinking of dumping the spiked chain from my game, and allowing maybe the kusari-gama or similar OA weapons instead. Anyone else done this?

AmberVael
2007-12-11, 04:27 PM
Frankly, it isn't the damage that appeals about the spiked chain. As long as the replacement weapon has all the other spiked chain capabilities, you'll have the same builds show up, and they'll stay at the same general level of effectiveness.

Altair_the_Vexed
2007-12-11, 04:34 PM
Well, the awesome art of combat-reflexes-fu isn't that big a deal to me - there are plenty of real-world weapons that follow this model.

EDIT: My point being that this thread's purpose isn't debating the build-exploitation available to the Spike Chain, more the poor reproduction / inconsistency of the weapon's stats, given other source material for similar weapons.
Essentially, would you throw the spiked chain out for being wrong?

....
2007-12-11, 04:38 PM
I never saw what was some awesome about the build that is usless against someone with a decent bow and movement speed.

fendrin
2007-12-11, 04:41 PM
None of my PCs have ever tried to use one...

Zenos
2007-12-11, 04:46 PM
Never used one, I've gonne with greatsword, axes, quarterstaffs, maces, but never spiked chain. Maybe simply because I dislike how it looks compared to swinging a huge axe at people.

Lord Tataraus
2007-12-11, 04:47 PM
None of my PCs have ever tried to use one...

Same here. They have never had the inclination.

F.L.
2007-12-11, 04:49 PM
Wizards don't use spiked chains...

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-11, 04:51 PM
Reasons why I don't use a spiked chain

It's silly.
It costs a feat, and still does poor base damage.
I rarely play builds that are going to use both trips AND disarms with regularity, so I might as well pick up a guisarme or a ranseur (or a halberd if I'm not going for a control-focused build that needs reach).
It's silly.


I guess, technically, it's a superior weapon to the non-exotic alternatives, but hey, the dwarf is an insanely overpowered race on paper, and yet I hardly ever play them (because I don't feel like it.)

Aquillion
2007-12-11, 04:54 PM
Well, the awesome art of combat-reflexes-fu isn't that big a deal to me - there are plenty of real-world weapons that follow this model.

EDIT: My point being that this thread's purpose isn't debating the build-exploitation available to the Spike Chain, more the poor reproduction / inconsistency of the weapon's stats, given other source material for similar weapons.
Essentially, would you throw the spiked chain out for being wrong?Honestly, it isn't any more wrong than most of the other things in D&D combat. Shields and two-weapon combat are both fairly basic things that are represented, mechanically, in an entirely nonsensical and nonfunctional fashion. They are not only mechanically weak; they make no sense, and are not used in a way that even remotely approximates reality.

Likewise, D&D grappling has nothing to do with reality. There aren't even rules for size or weight differences outside of the size categories -- according to D&D, every single human is the same weight category, and a 1st level five-foot tall little girl commoner has an even chance of beating her 1st level six-foot-six father in a wrestling match. They may have some difference in strength, but they're probably both going to be pretty close to 10, so it's unlikely to make a huge difference. (She will also probably have a decent chance against many 1st level PCs who don't focus on strength. Want to make spellcasters who took Str as a dump stat cry? Have their characters arm-wrestle with little girls. They will lose. Repeatedly.)

Also, non-magical weapons have no impact on your chances of hitting, your attack speed, or the number of attacks you can make in a round, which is bizarre.

As it is, D&D rewards you for standing almost completely still in one place and swinging like a madman with two hands (or, with the right feats, charging your opponent like a maniac with a weapon held in two hands, then standing almost completely still while you swing at them.) These are stupid and represent (even abstractly) only a very tiny fraction of real-world combat styles, but in D&D they dominate the system.

Thematically, the spiked chain isn't what's broken. The entire system is broken. I would say that the spiked chain is a good thing, in that it adds at least a little variety; sure, it makes no sense, but neither does anything else.

D&D combat is totally, completely unrealistic. Cope.

AmberVael
2007-12-11, 04:55 PM
Well, the awesome art of combat-reflexes-fu isn't that big a deal to me - there are plenty of real-world weapons that follow this model.

EDIT: My point being that this thread's purpose isn't debating the build-exploitation available to the Spike Chain, more the poor reproduction / inconsistency of the weapon's stats, given other source material for similar weapons.
Essentially, would you throw the spiked chain out for being wrong?

Ah. My bad. I misread your intentions.
For flavor? Yes, I'd toss it out if the others fit better. Mechanically? Well, I might just keep using the spiked chain stats with other weapon flavor if it fit.

Animefunkmaster
2007-12-11, 05:11 PM
Little known FACT, the chain in OA is far superior to the spiked chain in 3.5 DMG.

The only reason to use a spiked chain is for the reach and combat reflexes, especially if you plan on being large or enlarging (Many Spiked Chain Builds utilize Psionics or magic for various size increasers).

The base damage of the chain and the bonus to disarm is nothing. I think the reason prefer the spiked chain is that there aren't many weapons out there like it, and many DMs would be hesitant to use the Chain (Which is exactly like the spiked chain except can be used as a double weapon at close range... so twf and double hit + Robilars Gambit on top of all the sidesteps thicket of blades improved trip and knock back).

Edit: when it comes down to it, people just like the reach and the ability to hit in between the reach weapon and there natural reach.

....
2007-12-11, 05:14 PM
Also, non-magical weapons have no impact on your chances of hitting, your attack speed, or the number of attacks you can make in a round, which is bizarre.


Masterwork weapons aren't magic...

I don't disagree, just nitpicking.

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-11, 05:17 PM
Wizards. Sorcerers. Druids. Clerics. They all have better things to do..

Oh, you mean OOCly.

I've used a spiked chain once, and that was with a Warblade. Because I found the idea of exotic proficiency in all exotic weapons to be just too hilarious to pass up.

My players have never used a spiked chain, nor have I allowed one in any serious game. Mostly because it's an incredibly silly looking weapon.

Leicontis
2007-12-11, 05:17 PM
I have to disagree with Aquillion about grappling. Having actually trained as a grappler, I'd actually say that grappling in 3.5e is about as close as you could reasonably come. The only big problem with verisimilitude is the addition of Base Attack whole-hog. In general, the relative overpoweredness of grappling against certain creatures is quite realistic - it doesn't matter how good you are at fighting, if a skilled grappler gets hold of you, unless you're a LOT stronger than they are, you're hosed.

Also, nowhere in the rules does it say that you're "standing still" - I don't know many people that occupy a 5' square of ground when standing still. The size of the square occupied partially represents the dodging and weaving one does in battle. Also also, staying in one square is only encouraged by very stupid enemies. Any decently smart enemy is going to be at least 5' stepping every round, forcing the PCs to follow suit, as each combatant jockeys for a better position.

As far as iterative attacks, and having the same number of attacks for different weapons, remember attack != swing. You may be swinging a lot faster with the scimitar than the greatsword, but they're easier to deflect, so everything (for simplicity's sake) balances out. I do kinda miss 2e's weapon- and spell-based initiative modifiers, though...


The spiked chain is, flat out, a ridiculous weapon. The only purely chain weapon I've ever heard of (other than the classic "length of chain" sometimes used by movie thugs) is the weighted chain, which IIRC comes in a few different flavors with differing lengths and/or numbers of segments. From what I've seen, it's a very difficult weapon to use, which would carry over in spades to a spiked version, requiring way more than the equivalent of a feat just to be able to use without hurting yourself.

Animefunkmaster
2007-12-11, 05:22 PM
My players have never used a spiked chain, nor have I allowed one in any serious game. Mostly because it's an incredibly silly looking weapon.

You prefer phallic weaponry?

I think AoOs is probably the best thing a straight fighter can do to keep up with the rest of the party. Spiked chains are generally essential to that tactic. (Note: GENERALLY. Reach is just an easy way to get AoOs). Otherwise the Sword and Board Fighter gets outclassed by the druids 'shared spelled buffed up' animal companion.

ZeroNumerous
2007-12-11, 05:47 PM
You prefer phallic weaponry?

I think AoOs is probably the best thing a straight fighter can do to keep up with the rest of the party. Spiked chains are generally essential to that tactic. (Note: GENERALLY. Reach is just an easy way to get AoOs). Otherwise the Sword and Board Fighter gets outclassed by the druids 'shared spelled buffed up' animal companion.

I don't know what you're implying by the first statement, as it's entirely unneeded.

And I don't have straight fighters in any of my games. Infact, I don't believe I've ever had someone take fighter past 2nd..

Kami2awa
2007-12-11, 06:02 PM
Personally, I've always seen SCs as weapons for villains, not heroes. Heroes wield shining swords, beautifully carved bows or ancient rune encrusted battleaxes, while a villain should wield something black and spiky (bonus points if its made of obsidian, bone or quenched in blood).

The only time I've used an SC was as GM in of all games Call of Cthulhu! Taking a book of dark magic that drives all who read it insane to an old professor to translate is a really bad idea if he also collects ancient weaponry...

ocato
2007-12-11, 06:37 PM
http://www.dragonquestfrontiers.com/images/chain.JPG

This picture is the reason for a lot of the confusion with the spiked chain. People have been fighting with chain style weapons for quite a while, and it merits noting that the weapon is not really as ungainly as some people might believe.

Instead of this mass of curved blades with magician linking hoops connected by chains, the chain weapon is pretty simply a weighted chain with some sharpened junk on the other end, or not! In fact, the spiked chain wouldn't be incorrect to be changed into a bludgeoning weapon.

Check out the complete warrior, page 111 for a slightly better picture of how a spiked chain might look.

Ardantis
2007-12-11, 06:38 PM
Not to get too far off topic, but as mentioned several posts back, a character with proficiency in ALL exotic weapons, like the Warblade, is pretty hilarious.

Between reach weapons like spiked chains and impedence weapons like bolas and nets, that's a warrior who can enact some hilarious mayhem on enemies.

In that case, the ridiculousness of the spiked chain (in terms of game flavor) is an enhancer! You have a jack-of-all-trades who is carrying and using the most absurd weapons imaginable.

However, in a more serious game, I also think that the spiked chain is more than a little silly. Who owns a spiked chain, let alone uses it for hitting stuff? It's like owning a spiked rope. The OA weapons make more sense, especially if wielded by characters with that sort of cultural background (namely, one with less armor and more dextrous fighting techniques.)

That's my two cents.

daggaz
2007-12-11, 06:51 PM
Meh.. with all the wizards vs the mu´ltiverse threads out there, im surprised that people pick on the spiked chain so hard.

Its not that great. base damage is low, but slightly higher than some one handed weapons. Its two handed, makes enough sense. And as we all know, base damage is more or less pointless once you get the feats and BaB or sneak attack to power other options.

Its cheesy? Hardly. Wizards casting maximized timestop + (enter latest one stop killer combo here) + half their other spell list are cheesy. Clerics wading into battle with 15 nightsticks jammed up their respective rear-ends are cheesy. Druids trashing your campaign as a fullcasting polar bear with all the extra tricks they can get are cheesy. Plus, those builds are overpowered and easily broken.

Spiked chains are one of the few weapons out there that provide for a multitude of tactical options. And they require a ton of feats to optimize. And they are easily beaten by simple solutions, such as archery, flight, and spells. Seems to me like the best thing a fighter type can do with her spare melee time. Too bad other weapons dont follow suit.

That they are unrealistic? Yeah...ok, see my complaint about spells in battle. Or spells in general. Or wildshaping... or half the things that happen in DnD. Seriously, the fact that the weapon isnt realistic in regards to RL weapons... that outta be the last argument on the list, in a game that pits superhero adventurers against dragons, thousand year old liches, and genies that pop out of bottles casting malignant wishes on anybody foolish to ask for one. Or for the matter of other unrealistic weapons... a rogue who can fire whatever the current maximum of arrows/round it is finally up to. Manyshot, anybody? Only in Robin Hood. But I dont see a lot of threads complaining about that one.

Ive had some fun with spiked chains, but its never been _that_ great. That said, my players are gonna meet one hell of a mean ogre with an oversized spiked chain and a variant of the knockdown feat some day soon. That should be a pretty fun fight, if I can work it out right so that he doesnt just get pwned after the first round. Gonna need some mooks and background situation, I think...

Worira
2007-12-11, 07:15 PM
One thing that I think some people (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html) don't realize is that "Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent."

Sstoopidtallkid
2007-12-11, 07:19 PM
RAW, I think it does.

daggaz
2007-12-11, 07:22 PM
RAW, I think it does.

Laugh... try reading your RAW again, that was a direct quote =)

You cant "blender" one guy who moves thru your field, using all your AoO in one go. He takes one hit, regardless of how many squares he moves thru.

ocato
2007-12-11, 07:23 PM
One thing that I think some people (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html) don't realize is that "Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent."

I believe that he has the "Hold the Line" feat from Complete Warrior, hence his desire to make Roy charge. Roy charges, Hold the Line attack of opportunity, he moves through the half-ogre's reach, second attack of opportunity. Combat Reflexes for multiple AoOs and spring attack to force the charge.

daggaz
2007-12-11, 07:27 PM
Yeah, except he needs five feats, not six.

1. Exotic Weapon Prof: spiked chain
2. Combat reflexes
3. Dodge
4. Mobility
5. Spring Attack

ocato
2007-12-11, 07:35 PM
Fair enough, I was just explaining how one could feasibly get two AoOs.

Ralfarius
2007-12-11, 07:45 PM
I'll second ocato on the 'look to CW pg. 111' motion. I really don't have much problem with a spiked chain, unless I'm running a game that has - thematically - no place for oriental influences. Otherwise, it's just a pair of spikey, chained meteor hammers, and that's okay with me.

Besides, if I want the trippy/AoE with reach and non-reach attacks, I can just go with a glaive and some armour spikes. No feat investment to use the weapons, so that's a bonus.

tenshiakodo
2007-12-11, 07:46 PM
I was just watching Kill Bill, vol. 1 again the other night, and I have to say, watching the fight between Gogo and The Bride made me really respect chain weapons.

While Gogo uses a mace-and-chain, specifically (and a heavy one, at that), the way she uses the weapon is pretty cool, and I can now point to examples of how you can control the reach of a chain weapon in melee.

Reading the above, I see two conflicting viewpoints.

1: The Spiked Chain is too good, it's too versatile, and can be abused to make melee combat a joke.

2: The Spiked Chain sucks damage-wise, it's too feat-intensive to use effectively, and simple magic can be abused to make melee combat a non-factor.

In my opinion, both of these statements are equally true. Used in circumstances that benefit a spiked chain specialty over any other melee option, it's a devastating weapon, well worth the 5-6+ Feats to use.

However, it is also true that in circumstances that do not benefit a spiked chain, it might as well be an anchor chain around your neck.

And it's always true that magic trumps melee. There's a huge opportunity cost involved in using magic, and your reserves are finite. Unfortunately, DnD favors shorter combats. You use less resources, you earn xp faster, etc.

Melee characters can often use all of their tricks as many times per diem as needed. If battles were longer and drawn-out, then this factor would make melee closer to magic overall.

Since most combats last >4 rounds, that's hard to see play out.

So my two cents (and then some) is this: Spiked Chain, neat, who cares?

It is, as stated before, an excellent choice for an NPC opponent, who will only be needed in a few combats at most.

No player can afford to specialize to that degree, not even the Fighter, who certainly gets enough Feats to try. In fact, that's the whole reason for the Spiked Chain, it was made to give Fighters something to do with their many Feats.

Sound in theory, but it falls short in practice.

So, if in your game:

-combats are short, quick, and dirty

Discourage the Spiked Chain, it's too weak.

-combats are long and grueling

Discourage the Spiked Chain, it's too strong.

-combats are balanced between the two extremes

The Spiked Chain is fine.

Hawriel
2007-12-11, 07:48 PM
short version of another post I just made in another spiked chain thread.

Chain fighter: ok I attack the guy 15 feet away from me with my spiked chain.

GM: ok after spining one and of the chain to gain momentum you had to slide the spiked chain through your hand to cast it out and controle it. Take 1D3 damage for every 6 inches of chain that slid through your hands.

Chain fighter: But im wearing gloves!!

GM: ok the chain slide for 1 foot it then flops to the ground because the spikes riped into your gloved snagging ending it momentum. take 1D3 damage. Your going to need new gloves.

another option.

Chain fighter: I carfuly sneak up to the guard and attack him from behind. I roll a 20 to stealth.

GM: The guard quickly turns around and stabs you in the chest with his spear.

Chain fighter: What?!!? I rolled a 20 for stealth.

GM: Your carrying a 15 foot heavy chain. do I need to tell you why the guard herd you.

Ralfarius
2007-12-11, 07:53 PM
short version of another post I just made in another spiked chain thread.

Chain fighter: ok I attack the guy 15 feet away from me with my spiked chain.

GM: ok after spining one and of the chain to gain momentum you had to slide the spiked chain through your hand to cast it out and controle it. Take 1D3 damage for every 6 inches of chain that slid through your hands.

Chain fighter: But im wearing gloves!!

GM: ok the chain slide for 1 foot it then flops to the ground because the spikes riped into your gloved snagging ending it momentum. take 1D3 damage. Your going to need new gloves.

another option.

Chain fighter: I carfuly sneak up to the guard and attack him from behind. I roll a 20 to stealth.

GM: The guard quickly turns around and stabs you in the chest with his spear.

Chain fighter: What?!!? I rolled a 20 for stealth.

GM: Your carrying a 15 foot heavy chain. do I need to tell you why the guard herd you.
So... DM fiat to punish a character for spending lots of feat to use one weapon well? Why not just design a few encounters where tripping and AoE are not useable? Seems much more reasonable that not every opponent would be vulnerable to the spiked chain tactic than to make arbitrary decisions that single out one character.

ocato
2007-12-11, 07:56 PM
It might be a bit of a mistake to assume that the entire chain has been covered in sharp points, given that you are probably only going to be hitting your target with around 5 feet of the item.

Kompera
2007-12-11, 08:15 PM
EDIT: My point being that this thread's purpose isn't debating the build-exploitation available to the Spike Chain, more the poor reproduction / inconsistency of the weapon's stats, given other source material for similar weapons.
Essentially, would you throw the spiked chain out for being wrong?No, I would not. The spiked chain is one way for a melee type to fill two important roles:
Tank and battlefield control, protecting the other members of the group from attacks by using the reach of the spiked chain and specific Feats to allow Trips, Disarms, or simple damage against foes moving to attack the rest of the party.

A second alternative is to use a guisarme and spiked armor and the TWF Feat.

In either case it requires a significant investment in Feats to be able to fulfill this group-friendly role, and a melee character who wishes to do so should have that option. It requires the sacrifice of a lot of other options for those Feats, and is no more or less cheesy than the possibilities those Feats offer if spent in other ways.

Triaxx
2007-12-11, 08:19 PM
The only time I try to make a special effort against spike chains, is if I'm DMing and I catch them cheesing. The party suddenly sees dozens of long reach sunder monkeys.

Dode
2007-12-11, 08:42 PM
So... DM fiat to punish a character for spending lots of feat to use one weapon well? Why not just design a few encounters where tripping and AoE are not useable? Seems much more reasonable that not every opponent would be vulnerable to the spiked chain tactic than to make arbitrary decisions that single out one character. What about even a Large or Huge-sized quadroped?

That's a lot more sane then declaring that the player who spent a feat being proficient with the spiked chain is so unproficient in the weapon that he injures himself using it (or not uses locked gauntlets).

Ralfarius
2007-12-11, 08:45 PM
I'm going to give a 'word up' on that one.

Sstoopidtallkid
2007-12-11, 08:46 PM
locked gauntletsThat is something I'd consider trashing. Being able to change your grip is an incredible advantage, and removing that ability should be a problem.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-11, 09:15 PM
Hawriel: you're not serious, are you? For one thing, that's evil DMing. For another thing, why would there be spikes on more than about a third of the chain? Admittedly, you have to work hard not to smack yourself in the face, but that's why it's an exotic weapon.

Nowhere Girl
2007-12-11, 09:37 PM
The thing I just can't get over about Trippy McTrip, the Spiked Chain Tripper Guy, is that his whole combat strategy is almost completely negated by the Tumble skill.

Riffington
2007-12-11, 10:36 PM
Wizards don't use spiked chains...

Why on earth not?
You aren't proficient with any reach weapons, so you're no worse with a spiked chain than with a longspear. If you carry one, when you get charged you get a trip attack with a tiny possibility of saving your ass.

Or your enemies assume you're a Monk, and leave you alone.

Dode
2007-12-11, 10:54 PM
Why on earth not?

Because Wizards have a zillion better things to spend feats on then trying to melee the enemy with a spiked chain.

Hawriel
2007-12-11, 10:59 PM
Hawriel: you're not serious, are you? For one thing, that's evil DMing. For another thing, why would there be spikes on more than about a third of the chain? Admittedly, you have to work hard not to smack yourself in the face, but that's why it's an exotic weapon.

you cannot use a chain by only holding it in the middle. Spikes on a chain is dumb because they would snag. Its also moot because a chain is a blunt force trauma weapon. Chains work the way they do because of the weight at the end. Look at any chain weapon weather its European or Asian you will not find spikes on it. Kinda like the giant cinderblock sized head on a warhammer its not real, its not feasable its dumb as hell. Also of you can hit an enemy 15 feet away guess what your holding the other spiky end. To the other poster Im being an evil jerk wad DM if an NPC hears you coming a mile away because the players thinks its cool to carry around a 15 foot heavy chain.

Sstoopidtallkid
2007-12-11, 11:08 PM
you cannot use a chain by only holding it in the middle. Spikes on a chain is dumb because they would snag. Its also moot because a chain is a blunt force trauma weapon. Chains work the way they do because of the weight at the end. Look at any chain weapon weather its European or Asian you will not find spikes on it. Kinda like the giant cinderblock sized head on a warhammer its not real, its not feasable its dumb as hell. Also of you can hit an enemy 15 feet away guess what your holding the other spiky end. To the other poster Im being an evil jerk wad DM if an NPC hears you coming a mile away because the players thinks its cool to carry around a 15 foot heavy chain.
If you have a problem with a character you discuss it with the player. There are no rules in DnD saying a chain makes you easy to hear, if you want to house rule it, that's fine, but tell the player before they spend a feat on it.

Dode
2007-12-11, 11:12 PM
True. Only terrible DMs spring house-rules like "you deal 1d3 damage to yourself when you swing a spiked chain" on players after having them waste their time building up a character, like in Hawriel's example.

Aquillion
2007-12-12, 12:57 AM
you cannot use a chain by only holding it in the middle. Spikes on a chain is dumb because they would snag. Its also moot because a chain is a blunt force trauma weapon. Chains work the way they do because of the weight at the end. Look at any chain weapon weather its European or Asian you will not find spikes on it. Kinda like the giant cinderblock sized head on a warhammer its not real, its not feasable its dumb as hell. Also of you can hit an enemy 15 feet away guess what your holding the other spiky end. To the other poster Im being an evil jerk wad DM if an NPC hears you coming a mile away because the players thinks its cool to carry around a 15 foot heavy chain.You know what else is ridicious? Magic.

I mean, seriously, there's no way it could actually work. Using a pinch of bat guano to create a fireball? No. I think a DM is perfectly justified in telling the wizard that his magic simply doesn't work, with no warning, in the middle of a game. Maybe there's a finite amount of magic in each person, and the wizard suddenly uses theirs up for good? That sounds good to me.

Also, the damage bonus from a two-handed power attack is absurd. I think it shouldn't benefit from two hands (beyond the basic strength bonus increase.) And also, when you power attack you use a lot of effort -- you should become fatigued, then exhausted if you do it again without resting. If you force yourself to do it a third time while exhausted, you collapse at -1 hp and start dying.

I think I won't tell players about this until they've written up their characters, entered combat, and have just made the third power attack, too.

Altair_the_Vexed
2007-12-12, 02:56 AM
In every thread, there's always at least one who brings up "a wizard did it" in defence of a dumb rule. Please don't take it personally, I'm just trying to refute the assumption.

The fact that we're playing a game with magic in it is still not an excuse for silliness in other parts of the game, no matter how many times it gets brought up as an argument. :smallbiggrin:
In fact, it's precisely because we have magic that we need to have a certain amount of grounding and sensibleness in other bits of the game, so that we don't end up thinking the whole setting is just Alice In Wonderland, anything can happen and usually does, and there is no point looking for any causality between events and outcomes because "a wizard did it".

Now - spiked chains: there are, as I mentioned in the OP, lots of chain weapons in the real world. They can be very effective (see Kill Bill for a cinematic example, or Wiki search "chain weapons" for real ones). Why do we have the spiked chain, which isn't real, and have to look to our supplemental material for the real ones? I'm going to replace it with the OA weapons, I think. Still the same cheese (however effective or lame you think that cheese is), but more verisimilitude.

tyckspoon
2007-12-12, 03:04 AM
In every
Now - spiked chains: there are, as I mentioned in the OP, lots of chain weapons in the real world. They can be very effective (see Kill Bill for a cinematic example, or Wiki search "chain weapons" for real ones). Why do we have the spiked chain, which isn't real, and have to look to our supplemental material for the real ones? I'm going to replace it with the OA weapons, I think. Still the same cheese (however effective or lame you think that cheese is), but more verisimilitude.

Would you buy "half of the other weapons have equally stupid art and descriptions, and you don't see anybody complaining about those"? Nearly all the swords are in the area of two to three times heavier than most known real examples of those kinds of weapons, for example. And the bludgeoning weapons are downright bizarre; the warhammer looks like a rock-cracking tool and the maul, an actual rock-cracking tool, looks more like it's meant to be used by giants. It's really weird to pick on the spiked chain just because somebody designed a more-than-usually odd picture for it in the PHB.

Roderick_BR
2007-12-12, 05:15 AM
I don't use for a matter of personal taste in weapons. I just like the good ol sword & board style.
But people complain too much about the spiked chain. It gives you reach, "un-reach" (normal adjacent attack), tripping, and a bonus to disarm. But you need to burn a feat into it, and the damage is low (1d8, critical x2 for a 2handed weapon).
However, as people usually say, at higher levels the base damage doesn't matter as static bonuses (magic bonuses, high Str, Power Attack) is what matters.
The only drawback it can have is the low critical damage. And that's it.
Seriously, I don't see why the hate. Most of these "broken" builds can be made with others weapons too.
Others don't like the art too, but meh.

Kompera
2007-12-12, 06:54 AM
Seriously, I don't see why the hate. Most of these "broken" builds can be made with others weapons too.Exactly. For all of the Feats required to maximize the capability of a melee type using a spiked chain, you can have instead a greatsword using cleaving spring attacking la machine of death. Or a shock trooper, or leap attacker. Or any number of other similarly potent builds. The only advantages the spiked chain offers is superior battlefield control and the ability to try to protect the other members of the group from monsters looking to engage them in melee. And seeing as how this build attempts to do what an armored melee artist in a group with lightly or unarmored types should do, i.e. protect them from other melee types looking to cut down the casters, I think this is a wonderful option to have.

Saph
2007-12-12, 07:54 AM
People hate the spiked chain because it's an incredibly, incredibly stupid weapon.

People accept magic in a game because they know it's not real and because there's no basis for comparison. However, lots of D&D players do know something about weapons and hand-to-hand combat, so there is a basis for comparison.

The Spiked Chain isn't the only stupid weapon in D&D - most of the Asian-themed weapons are just as silly - but it gets the most flack because the gap between its in-game effectiveness and its real-world ineffectiveness is so huge.

- Saph

Fixer
2007-12-12, 08:08 AM
None of the players in our group use a spiked chain.

1) the min-maxers prefer other weapons and combat styles
2) the role-players don't like it
3) the munchkins use more strange weapons out of remote sourcebooks
4) the one player who actually wanted to use one, is a shapechanger who will likely be fighting as an animal all the time

fendrin
2007-12-12, 08:16 AM
it gets the most flack because the gap between its in-game effectiveness and its real-world ineffectiveness is so huge.

So tell us, what can it do in game that it can't do in real life?

Assuming, of course, a version that isn't what is pictured in the PHB. So, a single spike at the end of a rope or chain. They are called 'Rope Darts' in real life.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-12, 08:17 AM
To control the spiked chain, and to make sure no one would use something as god awful, I split it in two versions, both attainable via EWP:Spiked chain. One of them was the PHB spiked chain, which I gave TWF bonuses and the ability to use dual strike without spending a feat on it, and cut the reach to 5', and a second chain that reaches both 10' and 5', but only works as a chain on 10', as you have to use it like a dagger and take a -4 penalty to AB.

Saph
2007-12-12, 08:27 AM
So tell us, what can it do in game that it can't do in real life?

Penetrate armour, penetrate natural armour, strike at close range, strike in cramped conditions, strike around obstacles, not hit allies, not hit yourself, not cause a fumble every time you use it.

On the other hand, in-game it doesn't cause every experienced person you meet to burst out laughing upon seeing you try to use one, which is pretty much the only reason to use a spiked chain in real life (when they stare at you, then start pointing and laughing, you take the opportunity to run away). "Weapon" and "effective weapon" are different things.

- Saph

Matthew
2007-12-12, 08:33 AM
People hate the spiked chain because it's an incredibly, incredibly stupid weapon.

People accept magic in a game because they know it's not real and because there's no basis for comparison. However, lots of D&D players do know something about weapons and hand-to-hand combat, so there is a basis for comparison.

The Spiked Chain isn't the only stupid weapon in D&D - most of the Asian-themed weapons are just as silly - but it gets the most flack because the gap between its in-game effectiveness and its real-world ineffectiveness is so huge.

I more or less agree. I think that it is perfectly fine to 'throw the spiked chain out for being wrong', and I also think it's perfectly fine to keep it if you prefer a different aesthetic.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RulesComp_Gallery/92000.jpghttp://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/cw_ag/75468.jpg

Kami2awa
2007-12-12, 08:40 AM
short version of another post I just made in another spiked chain thread.

Chain fighter: ok I attack the guy 15 feet away from me with my spiked chain.

GM: ok after spining one and of the chain to gain momentum you had to slide the spiked chain through your hand to cast it out and controle it. Take 1D3 damage for every 6 inches of chain that slid through your hands.

Chain fighter: But im wearing gloves!!

GM: ok the chain slide for 1 foot it then flops to the ground because the spikes riped into your gloved snagging ending it momentum. take 1D3 damage. Your going to need new gloves.

another option.

Chain fighter: I carfuly sneak up to the guard and attack him from behind. I roll a 20 to stealth.

GM: The guard quickly turns around and stabs you in the chest with his spear.

Chain fighter: What?!!? I rolled a 20 for stealth.

GM: Your carrying a 15 foot heavy chain. do I need to tell you why the guard herd you.


NO ONE would use a weapon that did this. A fighter with a spiked chain has presumably practiced with it (otherwise how does he get the proficiency?) If he sawed his hands in half in the process he'd choose a different weapon. If the SC has the potential to do that if used wrong, then the fighter would learn to use it right and avoid this hazard (just as a swordsman has to learn how not to hurt himself while waving a heavy piece of sharp metal around very fast).

However, IMO the spiked chain should get a large penalty for stealthy movement attempts since it'd be like having a bell round your neck. However, anyone weilding it would KNOW it jangles all the time, and DM should mention it when he tries to move silently (unless his INT is round about 4).

Tyger
2007-12-12, 08:48 AM
Penetrate armour, penetrate natural armour, strike at close range, strike in cramped conditions, strike around obstacles, not hit allies, not hit yourself, not cause a fumble every time you use it.

On the other hand, in-game it doesn't cause every experienced person you meet to burst out laughing upon seeing you try to use one, which is pretty much the only reason to use a spiked chain in real life (when they stare at you, then start pointing and laughing, you take the opportunity to run away). "Weapon" and "effective weapon" are different things.

- Saph

Here's where I have to disagree a bit. The art which WotC has used to represent the spiked chain is usually over the top, but that's already been discussed, and is no different than any other weapon presented in a lot of the books.

Chain weapons have been used for thousands of years, effectively, against any variety of foes. Including armored foes. The Kusari-Gama is a very effective weapon when used against armored foes to lock them down and incapacitate them, as it a) catches on the protrusions of the armor, and b) is thin enough that it can slip through a lot of the spaces in armor and this be used to strangle or entangle.

Could a kusari-gama (or similar chained weapon wielder) take down a medieval knight in "fullplate" armor, wielding a shield and sword? If sufficiently skilled, certainly. Knights in armor (including the samurai whom the weapon was designed to fight) are very susceptible to being tripped and entangled, due to the nature of their armor. And shield provide very little defense against a weapon that simply wraps around the shield to strike at what ever is behind it. Once they are on the ground, a thin, sharp blade through the gaps in the armor would finish them off quite nicely. But that's how most damage is done to a knight in full armor. You do not slash through fullplate with a rapier either. You had to find the gaps. Hell, you'd be relatively unlikely to cut through the armor with anything other than a very heavy and sharp blade. So the entire D&D combat system is at fault here, not just the spiked chain.

Now... that's a real weapon, and not the spiked chain as drawn by WotC. But the picture is pure fluff. There is nothing to prevent the exact same stats and uses being applied to the "fluff" of a KG, and calling it done.

Ralfarius
2007-12-12, 08:50 AM
Or, you know, he'd wrap it up like any chain weapon so it doesn't jangle, making it surprisingly concealable when compared to giant swords and axes.

Tyger
2007-12-12, 09:21 AM
However, IMO the spiked chain should get a large penalty for stealthy movement attempts since it'd be like having a bell round your neck. However, anyone weilding it would KNOW it jangles all the time, and DM should mention it when he tries to move silently (unless his INT is round about 4).

So the heavy flails, quivers of arrows / bolts, bags of sling stones, nunchaku, heavy greatswords / greataxes, giant mauls, and all those other large and or noisy weapons can be easily silenced, but this one can't?

Chain weapons are one of the easier weapons to carry quietly, as they can simply be wrapped securely around yourself like a belt or bandolier. Problem solved.

Lady Tialait
2007-12-12, 09:29 AM
As a DM there are alot of BBEGs who use spiked chains in my gain and have use minions to take advantage of the position.

Chain fighter as BBEG surrounded by three or four fighters who have big axes. The effect is you get tripped as you stand back up you get 4 axes to the face.

the Real World..well I think the Kuri Gama has been mentioned. and that is used to disarm and trip...so yeah...surrounding a person with men with hard axes to bonk you on the way up sounds about right

fendrin
2007-12-12, 09:44 AM
Penetrate armour, penetrate natural armour, strike at close range, strike in cramped conditions, strike around obstacles, not hit allies, not hit yourself, not cause a fumble every time you use it.

On the other hand, in-game it doesn't cause every experienced person you meet to burst out laughing upon seeing you try to use one, which is pretty much the only reason to use a spiked chain in real life (when they stare at you, then start pointing and laughing, you take the opportunity to run away). "Weapon" and "effective weapon" are different things.

- Saph

Here's a great video on youtube about the rope dart and meteor hammer. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhW67MBO8M8)
It's excerpted from a video by National Geographic, so it has at least some credibility.

Tyger already covered most of this, but lets break it down point-by-point:

Penetrate armour
A rope dart gets a heck of a lot more force behind it than a standard dagger, and thus can penetrate anything a dagger can penetrate, and more. This is more of a conceptual flaw anyway, as you typically don't penetrate heavy armors so much as find the gaps (or crush the armor itself into the opponents body, in the case of heavier weapons).

penetrate natural armour
See 'penetrate armor' above.

strike at close range
What, the head of the rope dart somehow doesn't hit in close range? it just phases into existence at range? Keep in mind that the 5' abstraction in D&D has no real basis in a weapon's actual range. In D&D a dagger has the same melee range as a spear. Ridiculous, but a necessary abstraction.

strike in cramped conditions
I presume you mean something like two combatants facing off in a narrow hallway? A rope dart gets it's power from being wrapped around the wielder's body. It actually requires less space to use effectively than a greatsword or greataxe, yet there are no complaints about them.

strike around obstacles
I don't see any rules saying it ignores shields or cover, so the spiked chain can't do this.

not hit allies
RAW no weapon will hit an ally. Also as I pointed out under 'cramped conditions' above, a rope dart needs less 'swinging area' than many other weapons. In fact, at range it is 'thrown' straight out, not swung.

not cause a fumble every time you use it
It is a very difficult weapon to use effectively, that's why it's exotic.

Person_Man
2007-12-12, 09:54 AM
I've used a spiked chain build in one campaign. Didn't really offer much of an improvement over a guisarme, and was less effective then using a lance. I've come to the conclusion that mechanically, there's not much reason to take one. And it tends to kill the verisimilitude of the knights and wizards feel of most campaigns, though obviously that varies by DM.

Worira
2007-12-12, 10:07 AM
The only time I try to make a special effort against spike chains, is if I'm DMing and I catch them cheesing. The party suddenly sees dozens of long reach sunder monkeys.

You can't sunder with a spiked chain. It's a piercing weapon.

fendrin
2007-12-12, 10:07 AM
You know, in the lead-up to 3.0, I thought it would be awesome to have a spiked chain wielding monk. Then I got the PHB and saw how useless that combo would be...

Maybe I should modify monks in my next campaign to be able to take EWP: Spiked Chain as their lvl 1 bonus feat, and to use a SC with a flurry. Yeah, that would make monks cool again... :smallamused:


You can't sunder with a spiked chain. It's a piercing weapon.
Pretty sure he meant that opponents would have reach and be built to sunder (probably using a glaive or guisarme). He's saying that if a SC wielder went cheesy, he would take the SC away from them.

Keld Denar
2007-12-12, 10:55 AM
As I have mentioned before, its all about cost vs benefit. If you want reach and close fighting, you have 2 options really.

1) Glaive/Longspear/Etc + Armor Spikes

2) Spiked Chain + EWP

Option 1 has the advantage of saving you a feat, but the disadvantage of having to enchant 2 weapons, or have one of the weapons being less effectual. It also requires either multiple weapon specific feats, or less effect on one or the other.

Option 2 saves you some money by allowing you to focus all your money investment into one weapon. It also allows you to channel feats into a single weapon to remain effective.

That's it. The rest of the details (weapon damage, tripping, disarming, etc) are moot in the long run.

And having reach is important at mid-high levels. Almost everything that is large has reach. Everything that is larger than large has reach. If your reach is either equal or close to equal to their reach, you avoid a lot of painful AoOs over the life of the character. Unless you are a Crusader/Warblade with the right White Raven manuvers, or spend some most-likely crossclass skill points on tumble, reach is needed just to survive as a melee type at high levels. If you can't reliably approach your target, you are a commoner with a high fort save. Your greatsword is a good weapon when everything is medium, but falls head and shoulders behind the greatspear when you have to soak up ~50 points of damage on an AoO just to get close to the thing to hit it, never mind the full attack its gonna make back on you. Its too much extra risk.

And as I have declared in another thread (the one that went out to ~10 pages) if you don't like the flavor of it, its really easy to make it a pole-arm type weapon that is mechanically the same, but flavorwise is a whole different animal.

In closing, don't punish your fighter for picking a mechanically sound weapon that allows him to defend himself against reach foes and consolidate a bit of money and a couple feats. Its not overpowered, and the fluff is easy enough to modify. The poor guy already picked to play a fighter, isn't that punishment enough?

shaggz076
2007-12-12, 10:58 AM
You could always use the short haft feat from the PHBII but you would have to use a swift action to switch from the 5ft reach the 10ft reach.

fendrin
2007-12-12, 11:08 AM
As I have mentioned before, its all about cost vs benefit. If you want reach and close fighting, you have 2 options really.

1) Glaive/Longspear/Etc + Armor Spikes

2) Spiked Chain + EWP

Except that many DMs require you to use TWF to use the armor spikes (or spiked gauntlet is another popular option) if you have already made an attack with the polearm, even if it's just for making AoO. That means you need to take one or more feats to avoid ridiculous penalties.

Of course, if you want to talk about ridiculous weaponry, spiked armor is so much less realistic than a spiked chain/rope dart. If nothing else, it should add a hefty amount to the armor's ACP and ASP, and be an exotic weapon. Spiked shield isn't much better...

Frosty
2007-12-12, 11:19 AM
Yes, go ahead and nerf melee some more. Go ahead and RESTRICT the list of "viable melee options" down to "Power Attack 2-handed." Watch as your fighters abandon their class and instead roll a Druid.

Indon
2007-12-12, 11:38 AM
I don't use spiked chains.

Though, the thought of having a Spiked Chain/Bola/Net user is now very tempting after reading this thread...

fendrin
2007-12-12, 11:39 AM
Yes, go ahead and nerf melee some more. Go ahead and RESTRICT the list of "viable melee options" down to "Power Attack 2-handed." Watch as your fighters abandon their class and instead roll a Druid.

To whom and what specifically are you talking to?

Honestly, none of my players (or my characters, for that matter) have ever used a spiked chain (cheesily or otherwise) or spiked armor. And I have never taken the options off the table, either, though I think about it sometimes.

In fact in my last game the fighter was (IIRC) a fighter 6/dervish 1. With a greataxe. She had power attack, but never used it. She may not have been uber-optimized but she was very effective, and the player had loads of fun.

Frosty
2007-12-12, 11:55 AM
Fendrin, I was referring to Hawriel, and anyone who wants to nerf spiked chains.

Keld Denar
2007-12-12, 12:12 PM
Except that many DMs require you to use TWF to use the armor spikes (or spiked gauntlet is another popular option) if you have already made an attack with the polearm, even if it's just for making AoO. That means you need to take one or more feats to avoid ridiculous penalties.

Then your DM is a twit, and making up rules on the spot. No where in the rules does it say that you need TWF to alternate weapons in an attack routine, or for making AoOs. A dragon can make AoOs with any of his natural weapons, with no additional penalties or feat requirements. A character wielding 2 weapons can alternate attacks with both weapons, against different foes even, without needing TWF, as long as that character does not claim any extra attacks for using both weapons.

For example:
Bob the Fighter has a BAB of +11, granting him 3 attacks in a round. Bob is holding a greatsword in both hands, and has armor spikes. Bob does not have TWF. Bob's attack routine can look like any of these:

+11 Greatsword
+6 Greatsword
+1 Armor Spikes
or
+11 Greatsword
+6 Armor Spikes
+1 Greatsword
or even
+11 Armor Spikes
+6 Unarmed Strike
+1 Greatsword

If Bob dropped his greatsword and picked up 2 shortswords, he could:
+11 Shortsword A
+6 Shortsword A
+1 Shortsword A
or
+11 Shortsword B
+6 Shortsword B
+1 Shortsword B
or
+11 Shortsword A
+6 Shortsword B
+1 Armor Spikes
or any combo he feals like it. The ONLY time you need TWF would be if you are TAKING EXTRA ATTACKS with said weapons. So if Bob had TWF, GTWF, and ITWF, his attacks would look like (with the -2 for TWF):
+9 Shortsword A
+9 Shortsword B
+4 Shortsword A
+4 Shortsword B
-1 Shortsword A
-1 Shortsword B

Alternately, he could substitute any armor spikes or unarmed attacks for any of his shortsword attacks. The ONLY difference would be that all of the attacks above noted as B above would suffer from 1/2 str bonus, and all the ones marked A would receive full str bonus.

NOWHERE does it say that you suffer penalties or require TWF for switching weapons mid-iterative or between attacks for AoOs. Imposing that restriction is a deliberate NERF to non-spiked chain wielders who want reach and want to cover their close fighting abilities too.

Saph
2007-12-12, 01:08 PM
Here's a great video on youtube about the rope dart and meteor hammer. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhW67MBO8M8)
It's excerpted from a video by National Geographic, so it has at least some credibility.

Very pretty video. I enjoyed watching it. Has nothing to do with combat.

Look, you can hurt someone with a spiked chain. You also can hurt someone with a kitchen knife, a big stick, or a medium-sized rock. That doesn't mean they're the kind of things you want to carry into a battle. (And honestly, I'd bet on a guy with any of those three weapons against a guy with a spiked chain.)

Most exotic Asian weapons like kama, nunchaku, kunai, meteor hammers, shuriken, tonfa, etc., were used for the same reason that gangs today use chains, car antennas, and baseball bats - they were relatively innocuous items that could be scavenged or improvised. They used them because they had to, not because they were specially effective or powerful (they weren't).

- Saph

Indon
2007-12-12, 01:11 PM
Look, you can hurt someone with a spiked chain. You also can hurt someone with a kitchen knife, a big stick, or a medium-sized rock. That doesn't mean they're the kind of things you want to carry into a battle. (And honestly, I'd bet on a guy with any of those three weapons against a guy with a spiked chain.)


You've just described the machete, quarterstaff, and with a little innovation, the yo-yo. All have been carried into battle, though admittedly, the yo-yo was a rock on a string.

If D&D used realistic weapon selections, though, shields would usually be a far more viable combat option than 2-handers right off the bat, so the combat system's already a wash in that respect.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-12, 01:16 PM
Yeah, but as this is a heroic fantasy game, there's bound to be moderately unuseful but still feasible weapons.

This thread has actually gotten me to like the spiked chain more, as when I imagine its use as "sort of like a meteor hammer", it's significantly less retarded. I mean, clearly it's only going to have spikes at one end, illustrations and 3.0 notwithstanding. Otherwise it'd be a double weapon (and basically the same idea as swordchucks, which is not an endorsement).

Hawriel
2007-12-12, 02:12 PM
Yes your right the rules do not cover being sneaky wile carrying 15 feet of heavy chain. Or pots and pans, heavy plate armor or a back full of gold coins. This is whare the DM looks at the rules and uses common sence. Oh no not that!!! Oh wait even the writter of a christmas carol had poor old Jacob Marley clanked and jingled for all eternety when ever he moved.

The rules do say you can make trip and disarm attackes at a +2 bonus because the spiked chain raps round the enemys leg/weapon. hmm ok now that the spiked chain is rapped around somthing, how do I pull it free?

This is whare 2nd Ed. got it right. Flails, and if they had them, chain weapons ignored shields. That is the nastynes of chain weapons. when you attack you want to strike with the weighted end, not the length of the chain. The chain or flail user would strike a shield using aponent so the chain hits the edge of the shield. Now the weight already having momentum from the swing just had its folcrum moved closer. The weight would strike harder.

3rd ed got it right when they said that a chain can be used in close quarters. All the wealder has to do is choke up on the weapon. You can find many martial arts vidios on the net showing this, or kunfu movies.

The spiked chain gets ridiculed because its a dumb weapon. Its a totaly impractical fantacy weapon. If it was like the warhammer with its 20 pound sledge hammer head in the artwork, the cheese would be ignored. Wizards desided to rule in the spikes at penatration damage and draw big spiky blades in the artwork. Again its not chain weapons themselves that gets flak but wizards representation of them.

I did see a show about martial arts and weapons on the history chanel a few years ago. They had a young lady do a demonstration with two chain weapons. The weapon was about 5-6 feet long, with the chain being as thick as a shue lace. The weights where probley the size of a large marble. They had red and yellow ribons tied around them so I couldnt tell. the chain was fine enought that the lady could hold the whole thing wound up in her hand totaly consealing it in her fist. When the lady started wipping both chains around the words whirling death came to mind.

Cuddly
2007-12-12, 02:14 PM
you cannot use a chain by only holding it in the middle. Spikes on a chain is dumb because they would snag. Its also moot because a chain is a blunt force trauma weapon. Chains work the way they do because of the weight at the end. Look at any chain weapon weather its European or Asian you will not find spikes on it. Kinda like the giant cinderblock sized head on a warhammer its not real, its not feasable its dumb as hell.

If you only put big nasty spikes on the end, it's pretty well weighted.



Also of you can hit an enemy 15 feet away guess what your holding the other spiky end.

It has 10' reach, and it only has to be, what, 13' long, tops? A greatsword, a dagger, a short sword, and a hand axe all have the same reach- you can hit someone anywhere in an adjacent 5' square. Reasonably, if you added another 5' to either end of your weapon, you could hit people 2 squares away.


To the other poster Im being an evil jerk wad DM if an NPC hears you coming a mile away because the players thinks its cool to carry around a 15 foot heavy chain.

So do people in armor always automatically fail their move silent checks when approaching guards?

Tyger
2007-12-12, 02:48 PM
Very pretty video. I enjoyed watching it. Has nothing to do with combat.

Except all of those moves are combat moves. Every one.

Its the same as people who scoff at T'ai Chi when the watch it. Nice dance, pretty meditation. Except those moves are breaking knees, bursting eardrums, striking throats, etc.


Look, you can hurt someone with a spiked chain. You also can hurt someone with a kitchen knife, a big stick, or a medium-sized rock. That doesn't mean they're the kind of things you want to carry into a battle. (And honestly, I'd bet on a guy with any of those three weapons against a guy with a spiked chain.)

Most exotic Asian weapons like kama, nunchaku, kunai, meteor hammers, shuriken, tonfa, etc., were used for the same reason that gangs today use chains, car antennas, and baseball bats - they were relatively innocuous items that could be scavenged or improvised. They used them because they had to, not because they were specially effective or powerful (they weren't).

- Saph

Of course, most of those weapons did arise out of fuedal rules that did not permit peasants to take up arms and those peasants learning to use their farming or other implements in a martial fashion. But the exact same can be said of the scythe, the sickle, the flail, the whip, the axe, the pick, the warhammer...

Plenty of training required to use these exotic weapons, of course. But that's reflected in the feat having to be taken to use it effectively. To say that the weapons aren't effective, with no regard to the effectiveness of them throughout history, and in to the modern day, is interesting. Go to any dojo, and watch a kendo swordsman face off against a kusari gama wielder. If the skill levels are the same, that swordsman will be on his ass almost every time. The reason that those weapons are so effective is because the techniques used are specifically designed to take out wielders of "standard" weapons. You didn't train with your KG against another KG wielder. No, you trained to take down someone with a sword. So many of the techniques are specifically designed to disarm and incapacitate someone who is trying to hit you with a sword. Conversely, most sword training focuses on swordsmen as opponents, with little to no training on defeating exotics.

And sure, if the skill levels are differnent, that changes thing dramatically. If someone came at me with a knife, and I had to chose between the 2x4 and the knife on the ground beside me, I'd be grabbing that 2x4, because I know nothing about knife fighting. But a trained knife fighter, using little tiny knives, can cut apart a human being with little effort. Hell, one stab in the right place with a 2 inch blade is all it takes. :smallsmile:

All that said, never played, nor had in any of my groups, a spiked chain wielder. Did have a KG wielder. :) We used the same mechanic. Worked just fine.

Keld Denar
2007-12-12, 03:11 PM
heavy plate armor

Actually....there are rules for that...look up the equipment section of your PHB, and take a brouse under the section involving Armor Check Penalty. ACP applies to the Move Silently skill, which means the guards probably WILL hear you, unless you are a powerful character, in which case you smack the guards up as punishment for wearing red shirts on guard duty.

Stephen_E
2007-12-12, 04:53 PM
Yes your right the rules do not cover being sneaky wile carrying 15 feet of heavy chain. Or pots and pans, heavy plate armor or a back full of gold coins. This is whare the DM looks at the rules and uses common sence. Oh no not that!!! Oh wait even the writter of a christmas carol had poor old Jacob Marley clanked and jingled for all eternety when ever he moved.

The rules do say you can make trip and disarm attackes at a +2 bonus because the spiked chain raps round the enemys leg/weapon. hmm ok now that the spiked chain is rapped around somthing, how do I pull it free?


It would help yyour arguments if you got stuff right.

The Spiked Chain is 12' of chain.
The rules cover the problems of moving silently in armour with armour penalty checks.
The rules don't give a bonus to trip attempts with a spiked chain.
The binding affectcaused by something wrapping around tends to be a momentary thing, which is enough for a trip attempt, or a disarming bonus, and then comes lose naturally (it doesn't not itself) and if it does bind it can be lossened by flicking a wave down its length.

Things the rules don't cover -
Yes, a chain weapon can snarl, as can swords get stuck in people/things you slash or poke with them. If you don't have house rules for one, why the other.
Yes, the rules don't give penalties to move silently for anything other than armour. They also don't give require archers to unstring their bows, don't worry about the effects of water on bow strings, weapons or armour.

If you want to play a anal-retentive realistic game, do so, but don't DM fiat against the Spiked Chain user and hide behind a pretense of "realism".

Stephen

WhiteHarness
2007-12-12, 05:47 PM
Watching those 'rope dart' videos has only further convinced me that you can't hurt someone in armour with such an instrument. What's that you say? "But he could aim it at the gaps in the armour!" I suspect he's a lot less accurate with that thing than you give him credit for being. It's one thing to dance around, doing "kata," striking at imaginary foes, and quite another to actually take down a fully-armoured opponent before he runs you down and kills you. I want to see how reliably he can hit a small target (like, say, an armour-gap...) with that weapon...

Indon
2007-12-12, 06:10 PM
Watching those 'rope dart' videos has only further convinced me that you can't hurt someone in armour with such an instrument. What's that you say? "But he could aim it at the gaps in the armour!" I suspect he's a lot less accurate with that thing than you give him credit for being. It's one thing to dance around, doing "kata," striking at imaginary foes, and quite another to actually take down a fully-armoured opponent before he runs you down and kills you. I want to see how reliably he can hit a small target (like, say, an armour-gap...) with that weapon...

It's just as good at penetrating armor as, say, a whip is.

Or a thrown dagger. Or a javelin. Or a sap (a weapon which works equally well on people with or without helmets, I might add).

FinalJustice
2007-12-12, 06:45 PM
Have the SC bitchers ever played or seem God of War or Prince of Persia: The Two Thrones? Sure Kratos has blades attached to the chains, but he makes good use of the chains to close combat, and the evil-prince doesn't have chaos blades, but spiked chains (atached to his arms but this makes him badass =D) . To me it works just fine, and I've never seem a single person who played/saw the games and said 'dude, this is ridiculous', but I saw a lot sayin' 'kratos/evil prince are awesome/stylish/whatever'.

Stephen_E
2007-12-12, 06:51 PM
Watching those 'rope dart' videos has only further convinced me that you can't hurt someone in armour with such an instrument. What's that you say? "But he could aim it at the gaps in the armour!" I suspect he's a lot less accurate with that thing than you give him credit for being. It's one thing to dance around, doing "kata," striking at imaginary foes, and quite another to actually take down a fully-armoured opponent before he runs you down and kills you. I want to see how reliably he can hit a small target (like, say, an armour-gap...) with that weapon...


Swords don't penetrate full plate armour either. They have to try and find those gaps, and my understanding is that it was resonably difficult.

Lets face it, if you want combat that makes even a halfhearted attempt to be "realistic" you don't play DnD.

Stephen

Worira
2007-12-12, 07:23 PM
It's just as good at penetrating armor as, say, a whip is.

Or a thrown dagger. Or a javelin. Or a sap (a weapon which works equally well on people with or without helmets, I might add).

I'm not really sure of your point here. Whips are completely incapable of doing anything to a decently-armoured foe, throwing daggers in combat is pure fantasy, javelins are decent at penetrating some kinds of armour and bad at others, and saps, as you mention, work fine on people with helmets.

And to the person who mentioned kendo, of course a kendoka would be at a disadvantage to someone wielding a chain weapon. That's like saying a fencer would be ineffective against someone with nunchaku, or a WTF taekwondo practitioner against someone with a half-brick in a sock. They're athletes, not warriors.

EvilElitest
2007-12-12, 07:32 PM
Honestly, it isn't any more wrong than most of the other things in D&D combat. Shields and two-weapon combat are both fairly basic things that are represented, mechanically, in an entirely nonsensical and nonfunctional fashion. They are not only mechanically weak; they make no sense, and are not used in a way that even remotely approximates reality.

Likewise, D&D grappling has nothing to do with reality. There aren't even rules for size or weight differences outside of the size categories -- according to D&D, every single human is the same weight category, and a 1st level five-foot tall little girl commoner has an even chance of beating her 1st level six-foot-six father in a wrestling match. They may have some difference in strength, but they're probably both going to be pretty close to 10, so it's unlikely to make a huge difference. (She will also probably have a decent chance against many 1st level PCs who don't focus on strength. Want to make spellcasters who took Str as a dump stat cry? Have their characters arm-wrestle with little girls. They will lose. Repeatedly.)

Also, non-magical weapons have no impact on your chances of hitting, your attack speed, or the number of attacks you can make in a round, which is bizarre.

As it is, D&D rewards you for standing almost completely still in one place and swinging like a madman with two hands (or, with the right feats, charging your opponent like a maniac with a weapon held in two hands, then standing almost completely still while you swing at them.) These are stupid and represent (even abstractly) only a very tiny fraction of real-world combat styles, but in D&D they dominate the system.

Thematically, the spiked chain isn't what's broken. The entire system is broken. I would say that the spiked chain is a good thing, in that it adds at least a little variety; sure, it makes no sense, but neither does anything else.

D&D combat is totally, completely unrealistic. Cope.

wow, i've been thinking of house ruling combat in my games for years, you just conviced me
thank you so much
from,
EE

EvilElitest
2007-12-12, 07:49 PM
You know what else is ridicious? Magic.

I mean, seriously, there's no way it could actually work. Using a pinch of bat guano to create a fireball? No. I think a DM is perfectly justified in telling the wizard that his magic simply doesn't work, with no warning, in the middle of a game. Maybe there's a finite amount of magic in each person, and the wizard suddenly uses theirs up for good? That sounds good to me.

Also, the damage bonus from a two-handed power attack is absurd. I think it shouldn't benefit from two hands (beyond the basic strength bonus increase.) And also, when you power attack you use a lot of effort -- you should become fatigued, then exhausted if you do it again without resting. If you force yourself to do it a third time while exhausted, you collapse at -1 hp and start dying.

I think I won't tell players about this until they've written up their characters, entered combat, and have just made the third power attack, too.
I don't care about the spiked chain thing, but really, this magic argument is simple absurd. Magic is a force that does not exist in our world, combat does. Magic follows its own rules, combat should be expected to follow its rules, that are established in real life.
from,
EE

Titanium Dragon
2007-12-12, 08:03 PM
I don't see why you're worried about it. It isn't all that rediculous; its far less rediculous than many, many other things in the system, such as, say, ALL OF MAGIC. And it isn't broken or anything, either; its not like fighters are problematic as a class due to being TOO good, but rather quite the opposite.

Soups
2007-12-12, 08:04 PM
I don't care about the spiked chain thing, but really, this magic argument is simple absurd. Magic is a force that does not exist in our world, combat does. Magic follows its own rules, combat should be expected to follow its rules, that are established in real life.
from,
EE

*WHOOOOSH*

That was the sound of sarcasm going over your head. Also, I assume you don't play video games, as they are based on RL, but don't follow the rules or reality. Everytime you hit the power button to turn it off, everyone should die and you have to buy a new game. You can restart a new universe once you destroy it.

If combat was realistic, I would reccomend everyone play RIFTS. Everything is a one shot kill. In D&D you can suck a fireball, but not a motar shell in RL.

Shadowdweller
2007-12-12, 08:04 PM
Swords don't penetrate full plate armour either. They have to try and find those gaps, and my understanding is that it was resonably difficult.

Lets face it, if you want combat that makes even a halfhearted attempt to be "realistic" you don't play DnD.

Swords will most definitely penetrate plate armor. We're talking a thickness of between 1 and 4 milimeters of metal here. One to two over the vast majority of the body.

It's not necessarily a matter of finding the gaps so much as striking at a solid angle.

FinalJustice
2007-12-12, 08:08 PM
A point that's highly unfair for the 'combatents', namely non-spellcasters. Magic follows an outerworldly set of 'rules' where it's possible to stop time and open a up a hole in the plane. Physical combat following the rules of physics where a man can't jump 10ft high is REALLY unfair to the poor guys who choose to go the fighter's path. The argument is not dumb, it's obvious that two characters should follow the same set of rules, being them spellcasters or not.

Edit: Lol, triple Ninja'd

Cuddly
2007-12-12, 08:30 PM
I'm not really sure of your point here. Whips are completely incapable of doing anything to a decently-armoured foe, throwing daggers in combat is pure fantasy, javelins are decent at penetrating some kinds of armour and bad at others, and saps, as you mention, work fine on people with helmets.

His point is that all those weapons not only will penetrate armor, but can, with a high enough BAB, be used to cut through a solid granite pillar.

Mando Knight
2007-12-12, 09:55 PM
Swords will most definitely penetrate plate armor. We're talking a thickness of between 1 and 4 milimeters of metal here. One to two over the vast majority of the body.

Uh... no. A knight's sword (called a longsword in D&D, but technically an arming sword) may have been sharp and may have been swung by a man with greater-than-average strength, but it still could not cleave through plate mail. German Zweihanders and Scottish Claymores maybe, but mostly because of their higher momentum increasing the total damage output...

For reference, I'm talking about the late Middle Ages through the Renaissance, during which an armorsmith would fire an arquebus at short range to prove to the buyer that he would be protected from firearms... the origin of something being "bulletproof."

Also, as according to Wikipedia:
Plate armour is virtually sword-proof. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_armour)

Plate armor also isn't nearly as ungainly as D&D would have us believe...

However, in the physics-defying world of D&D, it is probably quite possible to cut through metal armor with a sword.:smallamused:

Still, it's far more effective to make use of weak points in armor than to try to just hack at it with a sword. A mace, warhammer, etc. can, however, deal bludgeoning damage through the armor...

Stephen_E
2007-12-12, 11:05 PM
For reference, I'm talking about the late Middle Ages through the Renaissance, during which an armorsmith would fire an arquebus at short range to prove to the buyer that he would be protected from firearms... the origin of something being "bulletproof."


And before firearms became common armour would be proofed by hitting it with a sword or shooting it with a arrow or quarrel. 4mm of steel might not seem much, but when you're trying to cut through it it's awfully tough.

That's why they came up with a raft of 2HWs for the specific purpose of putting enough force into a small enough area to either punch through the armour, or injure despite the armour.

If you look at european mediaval swordfighting training it was about exposing the weak points in your opponents armour so you could shove your sword in where the sun don't shine. It wasn't about hacking through those steel plates.

Stephen

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-12, 11:17 PM
That was sort of the point of armor in the first place. If someone could just cut right through it with any old thing, why wear it in the first place?

Worira
2007-12-13, 12:36 AM
Whips don't work on targets with +1 or higher armour bonus to AC. Also, they deal non-lethal damage, so they don't work on granite pillars. And BAB doesn't increase damage.

As for a sword cutting through armour, you're welcome to take a piece of sheet metal and try to stab your way through it.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-12-13, 01:03 AM
Agree on all points, except I'm pretty sure they meant BAB increases your damage via Power Attack. There's no reason not to full power attack when attacking an object the size of a granite pillar.

Shadowdweller
2007-12-13, 01:37 AM
Uh... no. A knight's sword (called a longsword in D&D, but technically an arming sword) may have been sharp and may have been swung by a man with greater-than-average strength, but it still could not cleave through plate mail.
Please note that my argument was not at all that plate armor provided inadequate protection against swords. It was that swords most definitely are capable of penetrating plate. (Though swords, of course, were highly varied).

http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.com/search/label/Armor%20vs.%20Weapons


It is just barely possible for a sword to cut through a helmet under optimal conditions “…there was given a stroke of the sword on the crest of an armet that opened it to daylight.” This was a single handed sword stroke.
(The helm being the thickest part)


German Zweihanders and Scottish Claymores maybe, but mostly because of their higher momentum increasing the total damage output...

From: http://www.onlineessays.com/essays/history/his290.php


The estoc had a narrow triangular blade that was used to pierce the joints in the armor, rather than slash through it. But the progression in the strength of these swords made it able for the estocs to be strong enough to pierce through entire plates of the armour (Revell, “Armour”).

Ever hear of the estoc?


Also, as according to Wikipedia:

An unsourced wikipedia quotation. How singularly impressive. :smallsigh:

From: http://www.thearma.org/essays/TopMyths.htm


But, given strong effort and a hit to the right spot, a rigid point stabbing strongly could puncture armor even if its cutting edge would not. (See: "Medieval Armor: Plated Perfection" in Military History, July 2005).
I also highly recommend a comparison of that wikipedia quotation with #18 on the above webpage.

Grizzled Gryphon
2007-12-13, 06:28 AM
Who doesn't use a spiked chain? Wizards? Ranged Rangers? Soulknives? Monks? Battledancers? :tongue:

Kiero
2007-12-13, 07:05 AM
Essentially, would you throw the spiked chain out for being wrong?

You could throw it out for being stupid.

AstralFire
2007-12-13, 08:26 AM
Ever hear of the estoc?

Not everyone considers that a sword, FYI.

I have used a Spiked Chain character once - a Scorpion Chain, actually, the bladed version in one of the Eberron books. I gave it to my Changeling Bard, who had a dance-based fighting style and used the chain as a belt when she wasn't fighting. I've never used a Chain weapon before or since, except a few times as a DM. (However, this Bard was my favorite character ever. Build: Swashbuckler 1/Bard 16/Fighter 2/Exotic Weapon Master 1. Not the most mechanically effective, but w/e.

Frankly, I don't give a crap if the chain makes sense or not from a combatant's perspective. Sure, you can say that magic follows a different set of rules than extraordinary, but look at what extraordinary can do:

- Survive - and be on your feet - falling distances of 60 feet or more. Without being particularly high level or magicked. (d6 or higher HP by level 6 or so)
- Take down an entire horde of kobolds or orcs or humans if they've got a sword (level 5-ish)
- Punch hard enough to kill people through armor (Monks)
- End an anti-magic field by sheer force of will (Iron Heart Surge)
- Have a 1 in 20 chance of long jumping either 20 feet... or 1 foot (1st level, no str, no ranks in Jump)
- Move more freely in Chainmail than Plate
- Deflect an arrow every six seconds

And yet you're having issues with a guy using a big metal chain? Face it, the weapon is chosen for aesthetic reasons and nothing else. The whip 'realism' means you'll just about never ever see a whip being used sans houseruling, and yet whips are pretty popular in fantasy (and in the bedroom, but that's another type of equipment issue).

And to go back to an early point in the thread:
If you're drastically nerfing a (balanced, easily negated gimmick) build on the fly without warning because you feel like it, please step out of the DM seat and go sit in the corner.

Grappling builds? Freedom of Movement or bigger enemies, ranged attacks, spells
Tripping builds? Tumble, Spring Attack, four-legged, no-legged, bigger enemies, flying, ranged attacks, spells
Disarming builds? Locked gauntlets, lesser augment crystal of return, natural weapons, bigger enemies, ranged attacks, spells
Charging builds? Cover, Solid Fog, concealment, broken ground, walls, flying, ranged attacks, spells

The DM has so many game legit resources to screw over 'Spiked Chain cheese' (if such a thing really exists) that it's ridiculous, and part of the reason I never make Spiked Chain optimization builds is because a DM can unintentionally make your build totally useless with standard encounters. (I never play with vindictive DMs). The more a meleer tricks out one aspect of his combat, the more utterly screwed he is facing other types of combat.

WhiteHarness
2007-12-13, 09:22 AM
Please note that my argument was not at all that plate armor provided inadequate protection against swords.

Regardless of how you intended your argument to sound, your earlier post certainly gave the impression you believed that penetrating plate armour was easy--as long as your stroke achieved "the right angle."

I'm familiar with "A Commonplace Book;" note again that part which says "It is just barely possible for a sword to cut through a helmet under optimal conditions" The bolded parts can't be overemphasized. Note also that the man who wore the armet that was "opened to daylight" did not die. His helmet saved him; it was a victory for the armour, not the sword. That the event was mentioned in the account of noteworthy deeds performed at Noseroy that day is strong testament to what a marvelous and rare thing it was to witness such a helmet actually damaged significantly by the edge of a sword. By and large, plate armour resists swords, especially swords' edges.

Swords aren't optimal anti-armour weapons, not even estocs. Axes, maces, picks, hammers, and other such weapons are more common than estocs, which leads to the logical conclusion that they were more effective than those estocs. Moreover, to the best of my knowledge, no surviving fechtbuch teaches sword techniques that involve actually striking at the armoured portions of the body; they all advise you to strike at unprotected areas, even with the supposedly armour-piercing point.

As Ringeck says: "If you must attack a man in harness, you must find his vulnerabilities quickly....try to strike him in the face...the armpits...into the back of the knee...etc...where his harness has its articulations." He never says anything like "Dude! You've got an estoc! Ram it through his breastplate!" and neither does any other fechtbuch's author. Yeah, with an extremely powerful and well-placed two-handed thrust with all your weight and strength behind it, you just might open that 2mm+ breastplate to daylight--i.e. put a pinprick hole in it, leaving your well-protected adversary largely uninjured. You aren't likely to impale him through breastplate and torso both with your sword.

Cuddly
2007-12-13, 11:05 AM
Whips don't work on targets with +1 or higher armour bonus to AC. Also, they deal non-lethal damage, so they don't work on granite pillars. And BAB doesn't increase damage.

If you're power attacking, BAB certainly increases damage. Which, you know, virtually every fighter has, cause what else are they going to spend their feats on; toughness?


But the point, that you're working so hard to miss, is that all the weapons, regardless of how feasible, can crack plate. Or granite pillars.

Jayabalard
2007-12-13, 11:24 AM
I never use spiked chains; they're not necessary since it doesn't snow in florida.

Worira
2007-12-13, 11:26 AM
And what I'm pointing out is that whips can't. Even with Power Attack, they're still doing nonlethal damage, and they still don't work, in real life or DnD, against someone with armour.

fendrin
2007-12-13, 02:26 PM
And what I'm pointing out is that whips can't.

Sure they can. you just take a -4 penalty to hit.

calebcom
2007-12-13, 03:00 PM
I can honestly say I have never, and will never use a spiked chain for any character... except maybe a wizard.... as a joke... :D

Worira
2007-12-13, 08:14 PM
Hmm, true. They don't, however, work at all on a granite pillar wrapped in leather armour. Strange, this.

Woot Spitum
2007-12-13, 11:31 PM
I have occasionaly had the urge to make a character that wields one of the goofier D&D weapons with the "dancing" magical enhancement. No matter how incredibly stupid the weapon (dire flail) the dancing property makes it viable. In fact, since the weapon wields itself, I think I could go for a colossal size version.:smallamused:

Grizzled Gryphon
2007-12-14, 03:57 AM
I have occasionaly had the urge to make a character that wields one of the goofier D&D weapons with the "dancing" magical enhancement. No matter how incredibly stupid the weapon (dire flail) the dancing property makes it viable. In fact, since the weapon wields itself, I think I could go for a colossal size version.:smallamused:

How would you get it around while it wasn't dancing, though? LOL, a colossal Dancing Club. "Watch out for his flying tree!!"

Anyway, I ended up playing a character with a spiked chain. The reason? His parents were rich and politically powerful in the city he lived in, and they did not want there son to be doing anything dangerous. So, he used a spiked chain, because he could wrap it around his waist under his coat, and they would never know.

fendrin
2007-12-14, 08:33 AM
Hmm, true. They don't, however, work at all on a granite pillar wrapped in leather armour. Strange, this.

actually, a pillar is an object, not a creature, so that special property of the whip does not apply by RAW.

Woot Spitum
2007-12-14, 12:19 PM
How would you get it around while it wasn't dancing, though? LOL, a colossal Dancing Club. "Watch out for his flying tree!!"Portable hole. Gotta love those extradimensional storage spaces.

Worira
2007-12-14, 12:24 PM
actually, a pillar is an object, not a creature, so that special property of the whip does not apply by RAW.

Well, there is the whole "ineffective weapon" thing.

Anyway, whips can't hurt horses.

Crimson Avenger
2007-12-14, 02:13 PM
I never use spiked chains; they're not necessary since it doesn't snow in florida.

After reading all of this incredible goofiness, you sir have made my day.
Kudos

Crimson Avenger
2007-12-14, 02:17 PM
I have built a character with a SC, a barbarian/ bard. I really enjoyed him. He was fun, didn't do as much damage as the fighter. Ask anyone in the party, they liked having a tactical melee person on the team. Was he uber-optimized...hell no, he was a Bbn/ Brd for crying out loud, but we had alot of fun.

As a DM I've used SC guys against the party now and then. Adds a little flavor.

Indon
2007-12-14, 02:51 PM
I'm not really sure of your point here. Whips are completely incapable of doing anything to a decently-armoured foe, throwing daggers in combat is pure fantasy, javelins are decent at penetrating some kinds of armour and bad at others, and saps, as you mention, work fine on people with helmets.

And to the person who mentioned kendo, of course a kendoka would be at a disadvantage to someone wielding a chain weapon. That's like saying a fencer would be ineffective against someone with nunchaku, or a WTF taekwondo practitioner against someone with a half-brick in a sock. They're athletes, not warriors.

-You can two-hand PA with a whip, and use it for lethal damage at a penalty.
-You can TWF throwing daggers, throwing almost twice as many for little penalty.
-You can penetrate _any_ armor with a Javelin.
-Saps not only work fine on people with helmets, but against dragons, or anything else, and can also be two-handed PA'ed, if I recall (If I'm misremembering them and they're really light weapons, please disregard, except in the case of the Large Sap).

But that's not all!

-A Fighter 20 with 13 strength and Power Attack can destroy an unenchanted wall of Adamantine with his bare hands (though gauntlets make it easier... to hit). Mundane materials like iron or stone melt like butter.
-Dual Wielding Bastard Swords is more effective, as a fighting style, than using a longsword and a shield.
-You can grapple someone with a tower shield. So much for shield walls.

My point? No, the spiked chain is not a particularly realistic weapon. But it's about average realism for D&D, and if you're going to ban weapons for being unrealistic, you're going to have to start with things like bare fists.

Worira
2007-12-14, 05:51 PM
Yes, but saps actually are quite effective at ignoring armour in real life, and whips don't work on armoured foes in DnD. I just find your examples odd.

Cuddly
2007-12-14, 05:53 PM
Yes, but saps actually are quite effective at ignoring armour in real life

No, they're not.


and whips don't work on armoured foes in DnD. I just find your examples odd.

They do if you take a -4 penalty and use it as an improvised weapon.

Worira
2007-12-14, 06:09 PM
Being blunt implements, saps are quite capable of inflicting trauma through a helmet, especially a tightly-fitted one. And while there's nothing explicitly stating that weapons can't be used as improvised weapons, it's quite clear that that's what weapon non-proficiency is for.

WhiteHarness
2007-12-14, 06:33 PM
-You can penetrate _any_ armor with a Javelin.


What do you mean by this? Do you mean to say that penetrating even the best armour is possible, but unlikely? Or are you trying to say that the javelin is some sort of superweapon, capable of piercing absolutely anything?

Cuddly
2007-12-14, 06:42 PM
What do you mean by this? Do you mean to say that penetrating even the best armour is possible, but unlikely? Or are you trying to say that the javelin is some sort of superweapon, capable of piercing absolutely anything?

He's saying that a javelin, a sharp piece of fire hardened wood, can, in D&D, penetrate any armor.

Matthew
2007-12-14, 09:28 PM
-You can penetrate _any_ armor with a Javelin.

Not quite, as hits don't have to represent penetration. On the other hand, it's not that unbelievable that a Javelin could penetrate most armour types, even plate.

Most of the other things you mention are indeed dumb and often meet the same fate as the Spiked Chain in my games.


My point? No, the spiked chain is not a particularly realistic weapon. But it's about average realism for D&D, and if you're going to ban weapons for being unrealistic, you're going to have to start with things like bare fists.

I would contest this. If the other aspects generally don't come up in play or serve some other purpose in the game, then they could be accepted, even if the Spiked Chain was not on account of being 'unrealistic'.