Advice for designing prestige classes?

[Tzardok]

Exactly what it says on the tin. I have ideas for homebrewing some prestige classes, but I never did that before. Does anybody with experience have any tipps on how a prestige class is designed, how to make it both interesting and useful, but not overpowered?

[Inevitability]

Add interesting abilities: stuff you actually need the PrC for. The worst insult possible is giving spellcaster PrCs features that their spells should already be replicating.

For prereqs: don't overdo it, but don't make entry too easy. One or two feats is best, in my experience - three is almost always too many, even when the class itself is excellent (see Windwalker), and zero makes it too easy for people to just fill in dead levels with it. Really heavy skill requirements (on the order of Sublime Chord) can substitute for a feat in this case.

Ask yourself who you are making this class for, and whether such characters will truly be served by a ten-level detour instead of just sticking with their original chassis.

For skill lists, it's always fun to innovate on the expected entry's skill list with a handful of more out-there skills, like how Blood Magus grants Heal or Demonologist gives Ride.

[Crake]

My best advice is find a place for the prestige classes in your setting. If the prestige classes simply fit a theme or niche, they’re better off being done with feats or ACFs, prestige classes are actual, in game things, not just some mechanical collection of abilities.

[loky1109]

Be sure that prestige class is really needed. If player can replicate all (or most valuable) PrC goodies without taking it and really heavy investment this PrC shouldn't exist.

This is also true about later levels. It's ok when somebody dip into PrC, it isn't ok if there is no good abilities after 3rd level and always better to go into another PrC.

[glass]

For prereqs: don't overdo it, but don't make entry too easy. One or two feats is best, in my experience - three is almost always too many, even when the class itself is excellent (see Windwalker), and zero makes it too easy for people to just fill in dead levels with it. Really heavy skill requirements (on the order of Sublime Chord) can substitute for a feat in this case.On the subject of prerequisites: One thing that official PrCs do not do (but I have long thought they should) is give an explicit character level as a prerequisite.

In practice, the PrCs features are going to be designed for a particular level (or at least, a fairly narrow band). Being transparent about that reduces confusion and eliminates the possibility of obfuscated level requirements not being as airtight as hoped....

[Telonius]

Ideally, I think that a Prestige Class ought to give narrower, but more powerful, options. You trade versatility (choices about feats, skills, whatever, that you might not have otherwise made) for power or utility (being stronger at something you're already good at, or getting the ability to do something you couldn't otherwise get).

You don't want it to be so useful that there's no reason not to make the choice (ie prereqs you would have taken anyway but you get more than the base class would have gotten), but you also don't want it to completely nerf the entry class at its own shtick (a PrC obviously designed for casters that only grants 5/10 casting), or give abilities that are much weaker than what you're giving up. That's as much an art as a science.

Questions to ask yourself:

- Is there any reason to take this?
- Is there any reason not to take this?
- Is there an actual trade-off here, and is it worth the price?
- Is this something my actual players might want to do?

If it's something you're working out with your player, feel free to collaborate with them on it. The decision on whether or not to try to meet the prereqs or take levels are ultimately up to them. If the players aren't ever going to see or use it, don't give yourself more work.

[AsuraKyoko]

I'm broadly of the opinion that most prestige classes should be 5 levels long. It's a lot easier to avoid dead levels that way, and allows a character to take several different ones over their career.

Beyond that, there is a key question that you need to answer when designing PRCs: Do you want Prestige classes to be more powerful than their corresponding base classes, or do you want them to be (roughly) equally viable?

The answer to that question informs how you are going to want to design your PRCs. If you are okay with them being more powerful, then some things get a bit easier. You can make them progress the "core" features of whatever class is their natural entry (eg. Spellcasting for casters; Rage for a Barbarian; Favored Enemy or Animal Companion for Ranger; Smite, Lay on Hands, or Mount for Paladin; Sneak Attack for Rogue; etc), and then have them give abilities on top of that.

You can also just template it like Legacy Champion, and have the Prestige class progress all class features of your base class, if you want to make it class agnostic. Actually, I think that there's a fair amount of design space to be explored there, with Prestige Classes basically being augmentations to your base class.


If you want prestige classes to present a tradeoff, then things get a little bit harder in some ways. My advice for mundane classes is largely the same: just advance your core features, or provide something that is a worthwhile tradeoff. The hard part is balancing tradeoffs for classes where casting is pretty much the only feature, such as Wizard, Sorcerer, or Cleric.

For these classes, the biggest thing is that partial casting advancement sucks. Losing a caster level upfront can be okay, but it's the sort of downside that is going to get more pronounced as you gain levels. There are other options for tradeoffs, though, for whih I will pull up 2 examples: Incantatrix and Archmage.

Incantatrix, while being an incredibly powerful Prestige Class, does make one tradeoff: You have to give up a Spell school to take it. This is clearly not enough of a drawback for what the class gives, but it is an interesting example of alternative tradeoffs. If could make for an interesting cost for a prestige class, if done in a way that fits with the class's themes. For example, say there is a class that focuses on manipulating material with spells, focusing on Transmutation and Conjuration. it would be thematic for a class so focused on matter to sacrifice access to something like Illusion and/or Enchantment, two schools that deal with things non-physical or unreal. Overall, though, I think that this sort of tradeoff should be used sparingly.

Archmage, on the other hand, presents a very interesting tradeoff: each ability permanently costs a spell slot of a specific level. I feel like this has a lot of potential. It's relatively easy to balance most abilities with a spell level, and thus you can give potent abilities that still represent tradeoffs in flexibility. For example, a prestige class that focuses on blasting may give Fireball as a Spell-Like Ability useable 2/day, in exchange for a 3rd level spell slot, or a prestige class could give something like the Spellthief's Steal Spell ability in exchange for a slot of the highest level you can cast.

Anyways, this ended up turning into a bit of a tangent on what types of prestige class designs I like, but I hope that you get some useful ideas from it.

[loky1109]

One more.
It's ok to make prestige classes that are underpowered or even totally unplayable if they need for your setting.
For example (it isn't my example, it's from the book), there is religious organization which members have advanced on the path of contemplation. They literally are sitting and watching. Not moving, bot eating, not breathing, thousand of years. It's of course on top of their skills, not everybody could achieve this. And when I read book I realized - it clearly is short prestige class (if I'd need to descript this book's setting through D&D). But no-one PC will enter it. And no-one DM lets them try.

[Chronos]

My rule of thumb for whether a prestige class is overpowered is, is there any reason why anyone would take base class 20 rather than taking the prestige class? If the answer is no, then the PrC is overpowered. And yes, this does mean that I consider most of the published full-casting PrCs to be overpowered.

And I agree 100% with AsuraKyoto that there are a number of ways to balance a casting prestige class, that aren't used much (but could be), and also that, while Incantatrix has a decent idea, it's still not enough for what that class gives. Non-casting levels are also an option, of course, and I think that if there weren't any of the overpowered full-casting-and-then-some PrCs available, players would take 9/10 or even 8/10 classes more seriously.

Yet another option is to not give the prestige class all that much extra power at all, instead making its abilities more thematic. Consider Alienist, for example: The main effect of the class is that your Summon Monster spells now give you pseudonatural creatures instead of celestial or fiendish. That's not a significant difference in power, so the class doesn't need to take away anything to be fair.

[Harrow]

A lot of my best advice has already been said, but it bears repeating.
1) Give it something unique. There are a lot of PrCs that primarily give a spell like ability a couple of times per day, copying a spell that they could cast more frequently if they had just been a full caster. If someone asks "Why would I take levels of this instead of Druid or Wizard?", you should have an answer.
2) Force specialization. This should be your answer when asked "Why would I take levels of a base class instead of this?". Generally, Cleric, Wizard, and Sorcerer have very little to give up in the first place other than spellcasting, which is so good that it's difficult to give up much of it without running afoul the question from #1. When making PrCs for these base classes, I would suggest things like the Unseen Seer's Divination Spell Power, which improves their caster level for Divinations but gives them a penalty to other types of spells.
3) Balance to your campaign. You aren't trying to sell your PrCs to be used in other people's tables, so you don't have to worry so much about absolute balance. If you're banning all full casters, then mid-to-high level spell likes become much more valuable and it doesn't matter if no one would rather take more Wizard levels instead of levels of your PrC. If, on the other hand, your table asks anyone who comes by with a Tier 3 class if they're sure they want to play that because you don't think they'll keep up with your Planar Shepherds and Initiates of the Sevenfold Veil, then it's more important than ever that your PrC gives something that you plain can't get elsewhere.

[redking]

Kellus wrote a class tutorial here. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?91264-How-I-Make-a-Class-(Class-Included!)-PEACH&p=4935759#post4935759)

[Morphic tide]

To add to the mentions of alternate casting progression possibilities, you can use the notation the Tome of Battle prestige classes do to define a slot-by-slot deficit relative to "normal" like Archmage while simultaneously removing delays from other PRCs or the Spontaneous Caster Tax if there's slack in the requirements. This differs from Sublime Chord in that it's giving it to the pre-existing spellcasting class, so if you did it for upgrading a Paladin's casting you still get Battle Blessing, and could lose two levels of spellcasting without failing to meet "2nd-level spells" by 10th or gimping the PRC's purpose.

[Jay R]

First: ask yourself why this Prestige class is needed. It's not justified because you want a full caster with full BAB.

You can break that question down into two parts:

Why does the game need this set of options?
Why would such a class exist in your specific world?

If you don't have answers, the prestige class is probably a bad idea.

Second: You are most likely to make the class too powerful. hat is an incredibly powerful temptation. After all, you're thinking about how fun it would be to play. Once you've finished, ask yourself if anybody who qualified for it would ever have a good reason to *not* choose it. If not, it's too powerful.

Now think about having to face it as an NPC. Is that acceptable to you?

[Note: it is virtually impossible to tell that your own creation is over-powered. Ask a friend, whose system mastery you trust.]

[Gnaeus]

I would point out that overpowered really depends on what is at your table. It's ok for Shao Lin Master to be enough stronger than monk that no one would take Monk 20, if your group is optimized enough that no one would consider monk 20 anyway. If you are making a monk PRC for a group that you know will include game savvy casters, it should probably be a lot stronger than monk. Tha monk class will not be sad if you make it obsolete. It should, however, not be clearly better than other available options that the PC should have taken.

[Chronos]

Once you've finished, ask yourself if anybody who qualified for it would ever have a good reason to *not* choose it. If not, it's too powerful.
"Anybody who qualified for it" isn't a hard and fast rule, though. It depends on whether the qualifications are something that a character would plausibly take anyway, without the prestige class. For instance, consider the Fochlucan Lyrist: On paper, that class has everything. It's full advancement for both arcane and divine casting, it's 6 skill points per level, and it's full BAB. Yes, absolutely, anyone who qualified for that would take it. The catch, of course, is that it's a huge pain to qualify for, such that nobody would ever do it except specifically to take that class, and they'd sacrifice a lot of power to do so: A straightforward entry requires levels in druid, bard, and rogue. Your divine casting ends up four levels behind and your arcane casting ends up three levels behind, and that's based on druid and bard casting, both of which don't cast as well as wizard or cleric to begin with.

Now, on the other hand, if you've got a casting prestige class and the requirements are just ranks in Spellcraft and a Knowledge skill and a couple of metamagic feats, then that's a different story: Lots and lots of casters will meet those prerequisites anyway, and so they might as well take the class.

[Tzardok]

Thanks to everyone who replied. I'll try to keep your advice in mind. :smallsmile:

One clarification: I don't have a group for which the class is intended. I simply want to design it because homebrewing is my hobby, because I want to try something different than monsters, and because I've got a bit of inspiration.

[glass]

I think the "would anyone take the X extra levels of a base class instead of this class" test makes sense in a vacuum, but less so in the context of 3.5 as it exists, at least for casters (particularly wizards or sorcerers).

Because wizards and sorcerers have basically nothing to give up other than their spellcasting, it is difficult to make a wizard/sorcerer-focused PrC which is not either a straight downgrade (if it gives up casting progression) or a straight upgrade (if it doesn't). As a result, there are a lot of PrCs already with full casting and meaningful features - your classes will be competing with them, not with levels in the base wizard or sorcerer.

Unless you are banning all those extant full-casting PrCs, but the difficulty remains. About the only thing you can give up otehr than casting levels is individual spell slots (as the Archmage does IIRC), which is possibly an useful design space to explore if you are not competing with other classes that don't require that.

[Glimbur]

Back when I was home brewing PrCs a principle I came to later was Choice. It is workable to give a new ability or two every level, and have them be about the right power level. But then every Cat Herder 5 starts to look pretty similar. If instead they are picking abilities from a Lesser, Greater, and Supreme cat wrangling list, or if at each level they pick an Appeasement or Outsmarting power, then they start to look different. It is a lot more work to balance more choices and more interactions but I thought it was worth it. Not sure my contest results bear that out but so it goes.

[Vaern]

As far as design goes, I would say to just start with a concrete idea of what you want your class to do, Then, begin with two key features that fit the theme of the class.
First, you should have a defining trait which should be granted early on. This ability should encapsulate the essence of the class. It doesn't need to be especially powerful - heck, it can even be a drawback in certain scenarios - but it should change the way the character works in such a way that it feels immediately impactful upon entering the class.
Second, you should have a capstone feature. This is a major bonus or ability that members of the class strive to achieve, and which should ideally make it worthwhile to continue progression through the class beyond their starting gimmick.
These two features will give you a your class's starting point and your class's end point. From there, fill your empty levels with features that fit one of these three categories:
A) The feature enhances or feeds into the class's starting ability, allowing it to be used in new or more powerful ways.
B) The feature is a unique new ability on its own that reinforces the core concept of the class.
C) If your capstone is expected to give a character a lot of new abilities at once, the feature may be a portion of what the capstone is going to do, but granted early. In the case of a class whose capstone is some sort of transformation, it's also common to see filler class features throughout the mid levels which grant bonuses that the character would otherwise expect to gain from that capstone transformation - for example, a lot of the dragon disciple prestige class is literally just incremental bonuses building up to gaining the full half-dragon template.
The important thing is to stick to the class's core theme. Do not give the class abilities that don't fit the class's concept just for the sake of filling an empty level with a class feature. It's okay to have empty levels.

Looking at the elemental savant as an example, they gain elemental specialty at 1st level which automatically converts every energy damage spell to their chosen element. This immediately solidifies the character as being expertly attuned to a single element. The character was already able to use energy substitution to achieve the same effect, but this is particularly impactful for a spontaneous caster whose action economy no longer suffers from having to apply the metamagic feat. It is a double-edged sword, however, as the conversion is automatic meaning that they no longer have the option of casting spells of other energy types.
At 10th level, the elemental savant becomes an elemental and gains immunity to their chosen energy type. This presents a clear goal that the character seeks to achieve. The transformation clearly illustrates the character becoming one with the element he is attuned to. Mechanically, the character gains a whole host of new abilities and immunities that can easily make it worthwhile to stick with the class all the way to the end.
Everything between 1 and 10 is either A) an increase to the spellcasting power of the one energy type that the elemental savant has restricted himself to, or B) an aspect of the elemental creature type, granted early as the class builds up towards a full transformation.

As far as balance goes, I'd say the best starting point to do is to look at existing prestige classes, find something that's meant to do something similar, and compare what they're capable of to what your class is capable of. Beyond that, just post it here on the forum for others to critique and edit it as you find necessary.