What's going to happen to the souls of (spoiler) and (spoiler)?

[Somniloquist]

Lirian and Dorukan? In Start of Darkness we saw how Xykon imprisoned their souls in a gem after murdering them. Anyone here who's familiar with D&D's rules for soul-binding, what happens when a soul is bound to an object and that object is destroyed? Can bound souls be freed? Does Xykon even still have that thing?

I just want there to be a reasonable hope that these two can have an ending in the afterlife.

(By the way, I had to recheck my copy of Start of Darkness, since I thought I'd remembered them being bound to the phylactery. That would have guaranteed that the subject would come up, but oh well.)

[Tzardok]

To free them, the gem must be broken or the spell dispelled.

[Errorname]

I don't know. They might have already been freed when Xykon exploded.

It's possible the Order might find the gem and use their knowledge to some end, since they know Snarl-lore that even Serini doesn't, but it feels like a Redcloak's niece thing to me. It's a thing which exists for the sake of Start of Darkness's plot and is unlikely to come up in the main books.

[Kish]

Most likely, the last few strips of the comic will include the gem being smashed and a depiction of Dorukan and Lirian floating off to the Neutral Good afterlife, as part of the post-victory wrap-up.

[Metastachydium]

Belkar will willingly take their place in the gem, fulfilling the prophecy "without dying", because although that's not how the spell works and it makes no sense, that will be found satisfying by lots of readers! T-W-E-E-S-T!

[Windscion]

Honestly, I see no reason for the gem to even exist unless the aforementioned epic casters can be rezzed to help patch up this mess. Of course, that might just be Giant laying a false trail.

[Emberlily]

I feel it's more the mirror of that. since dorukan was already established early to have been killed thru violence shortly before the comic, and given that lirian was the only one who would have 0 chance of dying from old age (thus preventing a resurrection as strongly as kraagor's fate), it's a fairly solid already-established-in-D&D way to lock those two out of any chance of being brought into the story (and thus taking focus away from our main characters). it also allows for a bit of a poignant moment at the end of that book for the two of them, as a nice bonus.

now, having this established [reversible way of barring the characters from the story] could imply it's also doing groundwork setup for said barring to be reversed. however, I don't think that's necessary, given the work it's already done for tightening up the story

[Ruck]

Honestly, I see no reason for the gem to even exist unless the aforementioned epic casters can be rezzed to help patch up this mess. Of course, that might just be Giant laying a false trail.


I feel it's more the mirror of that. since dorukan was already established early to have been killed thru violence shortly before the comic, and given that lirian was the only one who would have 0 chance of dying from old age (thus preventing a resurrection as strongly as kraagor's fate), it's a fairly solid already-established-in-D&D way to lock those two out of any chance of being brought into the story (and thus taking focus away from our main characters). it also allows for a bit of a poignant moment at the end of that book for the two of them, as a nice bonus.

Yeah, I think that's the right answer.

Plus, conservation of detail is overrated (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=11671842&postcount=99).

[KorvinStarmast]

Most likely, the last few strips of the comic will include the gem being smashed and a depiction of Dorukan and Lirian floating off to the Neutral Good afterlife, as part of the post-victory wrap-up. Will certainly not bet against this.

[Precure]

Lirian and Serini will be tried in court for their crime of revealing the gates, their locations, and endangering the universe. Dorukan will die from the old age.

[Errorname]

Honestly, I see no reason for the gem to even exist unless the aforementioned epic casters can be rezzed to help patch up this mess. Of course, that might just be Giant laying a false trail.

I think having the story bend so that the previous heroes can solve the problem instead of the protagonists is not the sort of ending Rich is likely to use. I don't know, I've been wrong before, but I'm pretty confident about this. You could maybe use the gem to let them interact with our heroes and especially Serini, that could be a good moment, and it may be useful as a way to impart Snarl-lore to the actual protagonists, but they're definitely not going to actively solve the problems for anyone.

[Unoriginal]

I think having the story bend so that the previous heroes can solve the problem instead of the protagonists is not the sort of ending Rich is likely to use. I don't know, I've been wrong before, but I'm pretty confident about this. You could maybe use the gem to let them interact with our heroes and especially Serini, that could be a good moment, and it may be useful as a way to impart Snarl-lore to the actual protagonists, but they're definitely not going to actively solve the problems for anyone.

It is extremely nlikely they will be solving the problem, but "powerful good guys who were defeated and imprisoned are part of the epilogue's cleanup-of-the-world crew" is possible, if only because the rifts left by the Snarl will likely need to be patched even if the Snarl is dealt with by the Order of the Stick & Friends (& Sereni).


I think it is also possible the gem where Lirian's and Dorukan's souls are imprisoned will be used as part of Sereni's character arc.

By this I mean, Sereni is extremely fearful of Xykon and is constantly comparing herself unfavorably to her former teammates (even when gloating she tricked them). Having a moment where Xykon taunts the good guys (or Sereni by herself) with the gem could be an effective two-birds-with-one-gem way for Sereni to finally confront her demons and show what an Epic Rogue can do when motivated and unburdened by self-loathing.

[Precure]

Serini is still using pet names for them, implying there is still love between them. This might foreshadow a tearful meeting between them.

[Windscion]

I think you all are missing a fundamental point. V will never be an epic caster. If given a chance to go back to Inky, it seems clear that they would, once the world's continuted existence is secured. And I suspect Inky would take them back once Roy and Durkon explain what was at stake (and V grovels a lot).
Becoming epic would require a bunch of time that the Order doesn't have before the inevitable deluge.
And having Lirian and Durokan patch a few holes is NOT solving the problem. They need TDO and his cleric to solve the problem.

[Tubercular Ox]

Of course, that might just be Giant laying a false trail.

I don't think this happens near as often as people suggest it. Instead, I think sometimes Rich is done with things before we are.

Maybe at the time of Start of Darkness he was worried about people asking why X or Y didn't just rez Dorukan and Lirian and rebuild the gates. For example, the elves living near Lirian's gate after trading intel with Azure City. Or the IFCC. Think of the leverage of having a rebuilt gate in Lirian's Glade as Kraagor's gets destroyed.

So he closed the door on it, but then in the intervening years the story changed just enough that it did not become the pressing concern he thought it would be. But it's still in print and now it feels like a false trail.

Or not. They could come back. I think it's ambiguous.

[Errorname]

It is extremely nlikely they will be solving the problem, but "powerful good guys who were defeated and imprisoned are part of the epilogue's cleanup-of-the-world crew" is possible, if only because the rifts left by the Snarl will likely need to be patched even if the Snarl is dealt with by the Order of the Stick & Friends (& Sereni).

Yeah I don't think Thor's original plan is actually going to pan out. There's a twist that has yet to be sprung about the snarl and the world within the rifts and I think that's going to recontextualize what the actual endgame is.

[Unoriginal]

It would be neat if the gem was shattered/de-magicked and, since Lirian and Dorukan are technically Oathbound spirits, they got to Order of the Stick around for a while.

[Fish]

Clearly, they return at the end of the movie when the Dark Crystal has been healed, and re-unite with the bodies of the Skeksis and urRu to form a weird spiky-looking Muppet before ascending into space.

[gbaji]

By this I mean, Sereni is extremely fearful of Xykon and is constantly comparing herself unfavorably to her former teammates (even when gloating she tricked them). Having a moment where Xykon taunts the good guys (or Sereni by herself) with the gem could be an effective two-birds-with-one-gem way for Sereni to finally confront her demons and show what an Epic Rogue can do when motivated and unburdened by self-loathing.

Yeah. I could see something like this happening. It would also allow Rich to inject something which is otherwise only known from SoD into the main story. At which point, their fate can be addressed more directly. None of the protagonists in the story know that they are bound into the gem, so you kinda can't just have them find it and "hey! The spirts of Dorukon and Lirian are in there!" (and you certainly can't have a whole side quest where they go off looking for the gem to free them). But having Xykon gloat about it, could totally be a thing that could happen. And now, you could have a whole bit about needing to destroy the gem to free their spirits, or whatever.

But yeah. I totally agree that they will not be significant to the resolution of the rifts/snarl themselves. That will be done by the actual protagonists.

[Jay R]

As a great literary philosopher once said, "There is no end, there’s just the point where story-tellers stop talking. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html)" Lirian and Dorukan got their fitting conclusion in Start of Darkness. There's no point in continuing their story; that's the point where story-tellers stop talking.

But as long as we’re making absurd conclusions based on something shown earlier, here’s one:

When Durkon fails to get a spell from Redcloak, the gods destroy the entire world (again), and kill everyone, but they will cash out all their souls before the end, including Dorukan and Lirian's.

No, of course I don’t believe this – but it's just as plausible as anything else. I don't believe any of the other suggestions, either. Dorukan and Lirian’s story is over.

[Errorname]

As a great literary philosopher once said, "There is no end, there’s just the point where story-tellers stop talking. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html)" Lirian and Dorukan got their fitting conclusion in Start of Darkness. There's no point in continuing their story; that's the point where story-tellers stop talking.

That's a point where a story-teller could stop talking. Whether there's no point in following up on that is a value judgment. There are definitely things you could do with those characters if you wanted to, some of them could even be pretty compelling, personally I think having Serini literally confronted by the ghosts of her dead friends could be a great moment for her character and a brief one-panel "hey these two were freed from Xykon's soul prison and can finally rest in peace" in the epilogue wouldn't hurt.

[Mic_128]

I don't know. They might have already been freed when Xykon exploded.

Oh god, or more likely, buried deep underground in the rubble under the destroyed dungeon. Redcloak didn't exactly stop to loot Xykon's scattered remains.

[Errorname]

Oh god, or more likely, buried deep underground in the rubble under the destroyed dungeon. Redcloak didn't exactly stop to loot Xykon's scattered remains.

There was a pretty big explosion centered directly on the spot where any debris from Xykon exploding would have ended up, so if it was still in the dungeon it was probably destroyed?

[brian 333]

As a great literary philosopher once said, "There is no end, there’s just the point where story-tellers stop talking. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html)" Lirian and Dorukan got their fitting conclusion in Start of Darkness. There's no point in continuing their story; that's the point where story-tellers stop talking.

But as long as we’re making absurd conclusions based on something shown earlier, here’s one:

When Durkon fails to get a spell from Redcloak, the gods destroy the entire world (again), and kill everyone, but they will cash out all their souls before the end, including Dorukan and Lirian's.

No, of course I don’t believe this – but it's just as plausible as anything else. I don't believe any of the other suggestions, either. Dorukan and Lirian’s story is over.

That's exactly what I said about Eugene.

[Tubercular Ox]

As a great literary philosopher once said, "There is no end, there’s just the point where story-tellers stop talking. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html)" Lirian and Dorukan got their fitting conclusion in Start of Darkness. There's no point in continuing their story; that's the point where story-tellers stop talking.

Dorukan and Lirian’s story is over.

This sounds dreadfully close to, "This story must have ended because I have determined that the story has ended." Before I believe that I want to know what the tangible difference is between Lirian, Dorukan, Thog, Tarquin, Ian, or anyone else who is never coming back, and Eugene, the Linear Guild, Sunny, the Oracle, Crystal, Julio Scoundrel, or anyone else who came back anyways after their story was "over".

Also, the line is delivered by a villain in an attempt to demoralize a hero. If it's technically true, it makes the villain sympathetic, which is a generic goal many writers have for their villains. That doesn't mean it secretly represents the philosophy the author wants to show off when designing the plot. The opposite, really. It indicates that Rich considers this philosophy suitable for villains to justify their villainy.

[Jay R]

This sounds dreadfully close to, "This story must have ended because I have determined that the story has ended."

The words you put it quotes is not a quote of anything I have ever said, implied, or thought.

It would be more accurate to characterize my position as, "This story must have ended because it appears that Rich Burlew has determined that the story has ended." Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what it looks like to me. He wrapped up the focus of their lives.


Before I believe that I want to know what the tangible difference is between Lirian, Dorukan, Thog, Tarquin, Ian, or anyone else who is never coming back, and Eugene, the Linear Guild, Sunny, the Oracle, Crystal, Julio Scoundrel, or anyone else who came back anyways after their story was "over".

The tangible difference between Lirian and Dorukan on one side vs. Eugene, the Linear Guild, Sunny, the Oracle, Crystal, and Julio Scoundrel on the other? A clear denouement that closes out the biggest theme in their personal story, of course. "No, no ... Not a prison anymore."

Again, maybe I'm wrong. But my belief is that their personal story was wrapped up with a final and satisfying conclusion. And that means that they aren't likely to come back. If I'm wrong, then nobody except Rich can convince me, when the time is right. If I'm right, it doesn't matter; nobody but Rich will convince you.

And that's how it should be. Neither of us can, or needs to, convince the other. We'll see what happens when it happens. I hope you're enjoying it as much as I am.

[Ruck]

Also, the line is delivered by a villain in an attempt to demoralize a hero.

Yeah, I kind of agree with you here. Just because a character says it in the strip and sounds articulate and witty saying it, doesn't mean it reflects what Rich thinks, or is even particularly accurate.

Jay,

I guess my question is what you mean exactly by "their story is over." I don't think Lirian and Dorukan will be resurrected and become part of the team, because I think that would undercut a lot about the story, in particular that the Order are the heroes of the story. But I do not think their story ends with "and they were trapped in a Soul Bind gem for all of eternity," either.

[Errorname]

The tangible difference between Lirian and Dorukan on one side vs. Eugene, the Linear Guild, Sunny, the Oracle, Crystal, and Julio Scoundrel on the other? A clear denouement that closes out the biggest theme in their personal story, of course. "No, no ... Not a prison anymore."

I would say that several of those characters had stronger ending points than Lirian and Dorukan. Crystal getting literally murdered and Julio Scoundrel's "I sincerely hope we never cross paths again" would both be perfectly fine places to leave those characters, and nobody predicted that Sunny would come back. "We're both stuck in Xykon's soul gem but at least we're together" is an ending, but I think it's also very easy to see why some people might want to see those characters revisited and maybe get a slightly less depressing fate


But my belief is that their personal story was wrapped up with a final and satisfying conclusion. And that means that they aren't likely to come back. If I'm wrong, then nobody except Rich can convince me, when the time is right. If I'm right, it doesn't matter; nobody but Rich will convince you.

The thing is that you didn't say "I think Rich is probably done with this story". I frankly agree with that, but you said "There is no point in continuing this story" and that the idea that it might get followed up on is absurd, which is both a lot more disputable and a lot more incendiary.

[brian 333]

The OotS universe is destroyed, while its inhabitants migrate to the planet formerly known as 'The Planet In The Rift™' but thereafter to be known as 'The Planet™' (Bob to its friends.)

Meanwhile, in a forgotten Astral Fortress, surrounded by unimaginable horrors that were somehow imagined, and thus came into existence on the Astral Plane, on a bedside table under an extremely gaudy Tiffany Genie Lamp™ sits a forgotten jewel. As the PoV zooms in there appears to be flaws in the perfection of the crystal. At an even closer perspective the flaws appear to be in the shape of two humanoids in an embrace. As the viewpoint penetrates the gemstone the images resolve into those of Lirian and a young Dorukon dancing while locked in the pose of a famous sculpture by the master sculptor Rodin.

This is the final panel of OotS.

[Tubercular Ox]

The tangible difference between Lirian and Dorukan on one side vs. Eugene, the Linear Guild, Sunny, the Oracle, Crystal, and Julio Scoundrel on the other? A clear denouement that closes out the biggest theme in their personal story, of course. "No, no ... Not a prison anymore."

Again, maybe I'm wrong. But my belief is that their personal story was wrapped up with a final and satisfying conclusion. And that means that they aren't likely to come back.

I'd like to learn how you make this determination. What could Rich have said differently to convey the same emotions but also indicate that they would be showing up in the story later?

[Jay R]

Jay,

I guess my question is what you mean exactly by "their story is over." I don't think Lirian and Dorukan will be resurrected and become part of the team, because I think that would undercut a lot about the story, in particular that the Order are the heroes of the story. But I do not think their story ends with "and they were trapped in a Soul Bind gem for all of eternity," either.

"No, no ... not trapped anymore."


I would say that several of those characters had stronger ending points than Lirian and Dorukan. Crystal getting literally murdered and Julio Scoundrel's "I sincerely hope we never cross paths again" would both be perfectly fine places to leave those characters, and nobody predicted that Sunny would come back.

Crystal's murder could have been an ending for her part in Haley's story. But the crystal golem encounter was the great ending of the story of Crystal's trauma. Similarly, Julio can end at dropping Elan off to save Haley, if we are never going to get any of Julio's story.

Sunny was a one-off joke, not a character.

Any of those could reasonably have ended there, and we would never have their story. Or they could continue on, and we could find out more about them.

By contrast, Lirian and Dorukan's separation was a focus for their story and their tragedy. Their story is now over (if I'm right), with a great and heart-warming reunion. Bringing them back would be an anti-climax.


"We're both stuck in Xykon's soul gem but at least we're together" is an ending, but I think it's also very easy to see why some people might want to see those characters revisited and maybe get a slightly less depressing fate

"No, no ... not stuck anymore."

I think you've just hit on why we see it differently. I don't see it as a depressing fate. I think it was a great, defiant triumph. Xykon killed their bodies and imprisoned their souls forever. But by imprisoning them together, he actually gave them their heart's desire—for all eternity.

If I thought they had a depressing fate, I might want their story to be continued to see them eventually triumph. But I already saw their grand triumphant ending.


The thing is that you didn't say "I think Rich is probably done with this story". I frankly agree with that, but you said "There is no point in continuing this story" and that the idea that it might get followed up on is absurd, which is both a lot more disputable and a lot more incendiary.

That's the great thing about Internet discussions at their finest. We can correct misinterpretations and finally communicate. Hope I'm explaining it better with more iterations.


I'd like to learn how you make this determination. What could Rich have said differently to convey the same emotions but also indicate that they would be showing up in the story later?

Nothing. Showing the emotions of their great climax is exactly why I think they aren't coming back (unless it's just for a one- or two-panel showing of a crowd). Conveying that emotion is (it appears to me) the end of their story.

Maybe I'm wrong. It's not a big deal for me either way. That's just what it looks like to me, based on what we've seen of Rich's story-telling approach.

My belief is that their personal story was wrapped up with a final and satisfying conclusion. And that means that they aren't likely to come back. If I'm wrong, then nobody except Rich can convince me, when the time is right. If I'm right, it doesn't matter; nobody but Rich will convince those who disagree with me.

And that's how it should be. None of us can, or needs to, convince the others. We'll see what happens when it happens. I hope you're all enjoying it as much as I am.

[Errorname]

Any of those could reasonably have ended there, and we would never have their story. Or they could continue on, and we could find out more about them.

By contrast, Lirian and Dorukan's separation was a focus for their story and their tragedy. Their story is now over (if I'm right), with a great and heart-warming reunion. Bringing them back would be an anti-climax.

This feels a bit like presentism. Obviously the stories of characters who did come back would feel incomplete to us if their stories stopped at an earlier point because our understanding of the characters is shaped by what happened when the author brought them back and did more things with them. Lirian and Dorukan's story only feels final because the author hasn't brought them back, and of the reasons you might not want to bring Lirian and Dorukan back (need to explain a bunch of stuff from Start of Darkness, clutter up the finale with two characters who could overshadow the actual protagonists) undercutting their Start of Darkness ending with an anti-climax is not one of them.


If I thought they had a depressing fate, I might want their story to be continued to see them eventually triumph. But I already saw their grand triumphant ending.

Their 'grand triumphant ending' is that they're in a horrible prison but can at least take solace in each other, which isn't unworkable as a final note for them but it's still a lot more of a tragedy than a triumph.


If I'm wrong, then nobody except Rich can convince me, when the time is right. If I'm right, it doesn't matter; nobody but Rich will convince those who disagree with me.

Here's the thing though, even if Rich doesn't bring Lirian and Dorukan back at all that won't convince me, because my stance is not "Rich is going to do something with these characters" it's that there are still compelling things you could do with these characters. By the same token, I could easily see someone who holds the "these characters have a satisfying resolution and should not reappear" still believing that even after they come back. I vaguely remember seeing that exact sentiment when Crystal came back, even.

[gbaji]

Meanwhile, in a forgotten Astral Fortress, surrounded by unimaginable horrors that were somehow imagined, and thus came into existence on the Astral Plane, on a bedside table under an extremely gaudy Tiffany Genie Lamp™ sits a forgotten jewel. As the PoV zooms in there appears to be flaws in the perfection of the crystal. At an even closer perspective the flaws appear to be in the shape of two humanoids in an embrace. As the viewpoint penetrates the gemstone the images resolve into those of Lirian and a young Dorukon dancing while locked in the pose of a famous sculpture by the master sculptor Rodin.

This is the final panel of OotS.

That's not going to happen, unless there is a heck of a lot more about them in the OotS strip. Remember that SoD is a "bonus book". The events which occur in the online strip (and in the printed books based on it), must be self contained. There will not be an ending to the strip/books that only makes sense if you have read one of the bonus books.

There will only be reference to Durokan and Lrian, trapped in a soul gem, if this is actually mentioned at some point in the main story (ie: not in a bonus book). This has not yet happened. For it to happen, someone would have to tell the main characters about the two of them being trapped in the soul gem. Serini does not know this. The Order does not know this. Only TE knows this. And I suspect that if it comes up at all, it will be something that Serini at least, would want to resolve. Rich is either going to bring it up in the story, and then resolve it (as a very minor side plot point), or not bring it up at all.


By contrast, Lirian and Dorukan's separation was a focus for their story and their tragedy. Their story is now over (if I'm right), with a great and heart-warming reunion. Bringing them back would be an anti-climax.

Except, again, there is no "their story and their tragedy" present in the strip (nor in the books, at least not that I know of, I admittedly havn't read all of the printed stuff). All we know of their fate is that Xykon killed them. To have this great story and this great tragedy, it would need to first be told to the audience within the actual main story. Which requires having these things crop back up into the main story at some point.

If there is to be any mention at all of these two, it'll first require some sort of reveal about what Xykon did to them and *then* some kind of resolution (which, yeah, could be them spending eternity inside the gem). If the first bit doesn't happen, then the last bit wont either. It can absolutely just be left as bonus material, since none of it is necessary for the main story to conclude.

[Windscion]

For it to happen, someone would have to tell the main characters about the two of them being trapped in the soul gem.
So clearly it is impossible for the Order to find the gem and determine what it is since no one told them.[/sarcasm]

[Precure]

As a great literary philosopher once said, "There is no end, there’s just the point where story-tellers stop talking. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html)" Lirian and Dorukan got their fitting conclusion in Start of Darkness. There's no point in continuing their story; that's the point where story-tellers stop talking.

As the same great literary philosopher once said, "This is a terrible ending!!! (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0936.html)"

[Tubercular Ox]

Nothing. Showing the emotions of their great climax is exactly why I think they aren't coming back (unless it's just for a one- or two-panel showing of a crowd). Conveying that emotion is (it appears to me) the end of their story.

That only confirms that Rich intended their story to end there at that time. Start of Darkness was first published in 2007 and the digital editions of the first few books were printed in 2015. The author's notes in those digital editions show a change of heart in between. How do you know Rich won't change his mind about the end of their story?

[Ruck]

"No, no ... not trapped anymore."

You think their souls being unnaturally trapped together in a gem-- preventing them from ascending to their Neutral Good afterlives, where they could still be together-- and having to watch for decades as the supervillain who imprisoned them has run around undoing their life's work, is a satisfying, happy ending, just because they're together?

We have very different standards for satisfying and happy, then.

[Emberlily]

there's a p big difference btw "happily ever after" and "satisfying narratively" and the latter is, yeah, very up to personal interpretations. I, personally, found that ending pretty satisfying for them in Start of Darkness as its own story. and as for happy ending... since they spent most of dorukan's life apart except for the occasional secret visit, and since if everything went according to plan, dorukan was gonna die centuries before lirian and might not even be around in the afterlife when she died... being alone together in some weird lil crystal world seems like a pretty alright bittersweet ending in my book. nowhere unambiguously happy, but even further from unambiguously tragic, imo

[Ruck]

To be clear, I don't consider "and then their souls were trapped for all of eternity" to be happy or narratively satisfying, no matter the spin on it.

[brian 333]

To be clear, I don't consider "and then their souls were trapped for all of eternity" to be happy or narratively satisfying, no matter the spin on it.

As opposed to dissolved on their deities' plane to become wholesome, if bland, food for the gods?

Both being NG doesn't guarantee both will end up together in their afterlives. He might wind up in Elysium while she might end up in Beastlands with her patron. Or he might be so far across the field by the time she dies that he will have forgotten that he ever loved her more than he loves everything else. (Which would be an even greater tragedy if she lived like Arwen in eternal mourning for him, and when she went to join him he said, "Lirian who?")

[Ruck]

As opposed to dissolved on their deities' plane to become wholesome, if bland, food for the gods?

Yes. Considering in the Good afterlives you can go at your own pace that you choose to give up material attachments, it ultimately is their choice when they proceed onward. They have no such choice in a soul prison. (Avoiding the afterlife at all costs is Xykon talk (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html).)


Both being NG doesn't guarantee both will end up together in their afterlives. He might wind up in Elysium while she might end up in Beastlands with her patron.

I think it's still possible for them to visit each other if they're both in NG afterlives. And, of course, it's still possible they do get to end up together, regardless.


Or he might be so far across the field by the time she dies that he will have forgotten that he ever loved her more than he loves everything else.

They're both already dead.

[Jay R]

... unnaturally trapped ...

... preventing them ...

... imprisoned them ...

As long as you are thinking in language like this, you have not yet emotionally processed Lirian's statement, "Not a prison any more".

[Or at least, you haven't processed it the same way I have.]


... We have very different standards for satisfying and happy, then.

Or possibly very different experiences of togetherness. Yes, I absolutely believe that it's possible to be satisfied and happy in an otherwise restricted life, if you and the right person are together.

After being struck down with MS, Annette Funicello once said, "I learned then, from my wheelchair, life doesn't have to be perfect to be wonderful." I don't think being in a soul gem is the perfect life. But after decades of separation, being together again can be wonderful. And regardless of what you or I think, it's clear that Lirian thought so too.

---

In any event, as I keep saying, maybe I'm wrong. I think that Rich has given them the ending that their years apart called for, and their personal story is over. Therefore I assume that they will not appear again (or not for more than one or two panels),

If Rich disagrees with me, and writes more story for them, I will have been proven wrong. But nobody else can prove me wrong. Most particularly, nobody in this thread can do so right now. I can't be proven wrong until they reappear for more story.

[Tubercular Ox]

If Rich disagrees with me, and writes more story for them, I will have been proven wrong. But nobody else can prove me wrong. Most particularly, nobody in this thread can do so right now. I can't be proven wrong until they reappear for more story.

I want to interpret this as saying we can't compel Rich to write the story a certain way with fancy words, because that would make me happy, but the part of me that wants to interpret it that way sees other things you say as sounding like you're trying to compel Rich to leave Lirian and Dorukan out of the future story.

I see three positions here. They'll be back, they won't, and Rich has his choice. Which is closest to your position?

[brian 333]

I want to interpret this as saying we can't compel Rich to write the story a certain way with fancy words, because that would make me happy, but the part of me that wants to interpret it that way sees other things you say as sounding like you're trying to compel Rich to leave Lirian and Dorukan out of the future story.

I see three positions here. They'll be back, they won't, and Rich has his choice. Which is closest to your position?

I don't see any attempt to compel the author. What I see is his belief about what the author intends. It is not necessary that anyone hold these beliefs to validate his, and he has excluded everyone from his list of people who can change his mind except the author.

He is saying that the author is capable of doing something different, but until the author chooses to do so, this is what he believes.

[Errorname]

If Rich disagrees with me, and writes more story for them, I will have been proven wrong. But nobody else can prove me wrong. Most particularly, nobody in this thread can do so right now. I can't be proven wrong until they reappear for more story.

Would you be? If you think the ending they have is good and satisfying and their story should be over, why would the author writing more story with these characters prove you wrong.

Crystal came up as an example of a character who had an ending and was brought back anyways, and while I personally liked that final encounter with her I know there were people who didn't and thought that bringing her back after she'd be taken care of was a waste of space. I think it'd be entirely reasonable for someone who thought "not a prison anymore" was a "grand triumphant ending" and the point where their stories should end to still think that even after the author wrote a continuation.

[Jay R]

I want to interpret this as saying we can't compel Rich to write the story a certain way with fancy words, because that would make me happy, but the part of me that wants to interpret it that way sees other things you say as sounding like you're trying to compel Rich to leave Lirian and Dorukan out of the future story.

We aren't trying to compel; we are trying to predict. Until you just brought it up, the idea of compelling Rich was neither mentioned nor implied in the entire thread. In fact, I doubt if Rich will ever read this thread.


I see three positions here. They'll be back, they won't, and Rich has his choice. Which is closest to your position?

Two and three together, of course.

Of course Rich has his choice. That is obvious. I assume everybody knows that. And in any event, it isn't and can't be an alternative to positions 1 and 2. Your position 3 must by definition come accompanied with position 1, or come accompanied with position 2.

Either:

1. Rich has his choice, and he will choose to bring them back, or
2. Rich has his choice, and he will choose not to bring them back.

I believe that Lirian and Dorukan already have the ending that best wraps up the story as Rich perceives story-telling. If I am correct in my understanding of Rich's story-telling, then they will not have any more major story.


Would you be? If you think the ending they have is good and satisfying and their story should be over, why would the author writing more story with these characters prove you wrong.

You are confusing the thought process with the conclusion. The topic is not "Is this the best possible ending for (spoiler) and (spoiler)?" The thread title is "What's going to happen to the souls of (spoiler) and (spoiler)?"

My prediction, based on my evaluation of their ending and my beliefs about Rich's approach to story-writing, is that they won't have any more substantive story (though they may show up for a panel or two).

Yes, this conclusion will be proven wrong if Rich tells more substantive story about them.


Crystal came up as an example of a character who had an ending and was brought back anyways, and while I personally liked that final encounter with her I know there were people who didn't and thought that bringing her back after she'd be taken care of was a waste of space. I think it'd be entirely reasonable for someone who thought "not a prison anymore" was a "grand triumphant ending" and the point where their stories should end to still think that even after the author wrote a continuation.

At first, Crystal had no story, except as Haley's nemesis. She was an assassin who hated Haley, they sneered at each other, and she wanted to kill Haley. That was pretty much who she was. Her first death was (potentially) the end of her part in Haley's story. Its purpose was to make Haley safer. When she came back, there was a lot more Crystal-story told. We heard about who she was, how she felt, and what she would do. This time her death was about Crystal; she couldn't be left to go on a murder spree, just to make herself feel better. That feels like the end of Crystal's story. Therefore I assume that she will not appear again.

[Errorname]

When she came back, there was a lot more Crystal-story told. We heard about who she was, how she felt, and what she would do This time her death was about Crystal; she couldn't be left to go on a murder spree, just to make herself feel better. That feels like the end of Crystal's story. Therefore I assume that she will not appear again.

I'd dispute that the point of that scene was about Crystal or that her function had significantly evolved beyond Haley's rival and Bozzok's lackey. Crystal came back because it could be used to showcase things about Haley, how she's grown as a person and a character, and because Bozzok was a loose end that needed tying off, also maybe. She does get development, but if the point of that scene was just to tell Crystal's story, then frankly we wouldn't have gotten it. Because the story's not about her.

The question of will Lirian and Dorukan come back is a question of 'could their return serve a narrative function', and I think the combination of their capacity to exposit important information to the heroes without being able to directly intervene and the potential weight of a reunion with Serini make it decently possible

[Unoriginal]

I'd dispute that the point of that scene was about Crystal or that her function had significantly evolved beyond Haley's rival and Bozzok's lackey. Crystal came back because it could be used to showcase things about Haley, how she's grown as a person and a character, and because Bozzok was a loose end that needed tying off, also maybe. She does get development, but if the point of that scene was just to tell Crystal's story, then frankly we wouldn't have gotten it. Because the story's not about her.

The question of will Lirian and Dorukan come back is a question of 'could their return serve a narrative function', and I think the combination of their capacity to exposit important information to the heroes without being able to directly intervene and the potential weight of a reunion with Serini make it decently possible

It is probably very unlikely to happen, but I think that a discussion between Vaarsuvius and Dorukan would also be extremely interesting and would work with the elf's character arc.

Dorukan achieved epic arcane power in a fraction of the time Vaarsuvius has been alive, helped save the world, and did all this while maintaining a relationship with the person he loved, despite the very real limitations their respective duties put on them.

So basically, everything Vaarsuvius-before-the-Azure-City-battle could have wanted as a life.

Plus how both wizards lost to Xykon after bull-rushing and underestimating him (Dorukan because he was too angry to wait and prepare, Vaarsuvius because to their ego trip taking them through Wounded Pride Alley) mirrors each other.

While Vaarsuvius has accepted they did a monstrously terrible thing with Familicide and have been humbled by their defeat against Xykon, I think they've also not really thought about what will happen if the Order manages to save the world. And I think Dorukan is someone who could talk with them about that.

There even could be a couple jokes about how Vaarsuvius bashed their head against Cloister for months, and even a callback to the Superior Animal Messenger joke.

Like:

Dorukan: "Workshoping a better Animal Messenger? That's very clever... Yes, that would work, I can't see anything in my spell that could have stopped that."
Varsuvius: "While I appreciate the compliment, it appears your assessment is incorrect. The tropical island birds I used the spell on failed to get to reach Miss Starshine."
Belkar: "Tropical island birds? Hearing you eggheads talk reminds me of that (very) random encounter me, Haley and Roy's airy girlfriend had while moving his corpse around. Best poultry dish in weeks."


I also think it would be very funny if Lirian and Dorukan continued the gag started by Durkon's family of recognizing Elan as a certified Bardic genius.

[Tubercular Ox]

I'd dispute that the point of that scene was about Crystal or that her function had significantly evolved beyond Haley's rival and Bozzok's lackey. Crystal came back because it could be used to showcase things about Haley, how she's grown as a person and a character, and because Bozzok was a loose end that needed tying off, also maybe. She does get development, but if the point of that scene was just to tell Crystal's story, then frankly we wouldn't have gotten it. Because the story's not about her.

There is also a whirlwind (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0972.html) tour (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0973.html) of Golem (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0974.html) traits (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0977.html) she delivers.


Until you just brought it up, the idea of compelling Rich was neither mentioned nor implied in the entire thread.

Yes, that's right. I brought it up and it would make me happy if I could interpret, "Only Rich can prove me wrong," as, "Armchair story analysis can't compel Rich to write the story a certain way if he doesn't want to."

I think, "We can make predictions and grant Rich choice at the same time," is a great answer.

[Errorname]

There is also a whirlwind (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0972.html) tour (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0973.html) of Golem (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0974.html) traits (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0977.html) she delivers

Yeah, the Bozzok/Crystal encounter also serves as an early book action scene to give the actual A-plot more time to develop before things hit the fan, and getting turned into a monster so you can support an action scene singlehandedly is a sort of character development. My point is that any development for Crystal is pretty ancillary. The point wasn't fleshing out her character or telling her story. The point is to take Bozzok off the board and show how much Haley's outgrown the guild, and Crystal is a useful character for a scene like that.

But the point is never Crystal herself. I'd actually say that if her previous ending was inadequate is not because it was an unsatisfying end to Crystal's story, but because cold-blooded murder of an unarmed woman is a pretty ruthless act that reflected poorly on Haley. Bringing Crystal back makes that first murder less egregious and provides a chance for a do-over in a context where it is a lot more obviously justified.

[Ruck]

As long as you are thinking in language like this, you have not yet emotionally processed Lirian's statement, "Not a prison any more".

[Or at least, you haven't processed it the same way I have.]

I don't know how to respond to claims like "haven't emotionally processed" because that feels borderline offensive to suggest about me. I just don't think that line means "Oh, everything is fine now and it all worked out for us," as much as it is making the best of a terrible situation.

[Tubercular Ox]

I don't know how to respond to claims like "haven't emotionally processed" because that feels borderline offensive to suggest about me. I just don't think that line means "Oh, everything is fine now and it all worked out for us," as much as it is making the best of a terrible situation.

To be fair, Lirian is literally saying it's not a prison, and we're all convinced she can't mean it because we think it's a terrible situation.

[brian 333]

To be fair, Lirian is literally saying it's not a prison, and we're all convinced she can't mean it because we think it's a terrible situation.

I have to wonder about Dorukon's incompetence in his fight with Xykon. Energy Drain is trivially easy to ward against, and he had to know that would be an issue against a lich. Dominate Monster, or a half-dozen similar spells, could have been used to induce Xykon to eliminate RC and, of all things, Control Undead was still a potential option even after several lost levels to Energy Drain.

It's almost as if Dorukon wished to be trapped in the gem.

[Tzardok]

I have to wonder about Dorukon's incompetence in his fight with Xykon. Energy Drain is trivially easy to ward against, and he had to know that would be an issue against a lich. Dominate Monster, or a half-dozen similar spells, could have been used to induce Xykon to eliminate RC and, of all things, Control Undead was still a potential option even after several lost levels to Energy Drain.

It's almost as if Dorukon wished to be trapped in the gem.

Death Ward is not on the Wizard spell list and I'm pretty sure there's nothing else in the core that can defend against negative levels, making it not trivial. Nor does "lich" automatically mean negative levels.

I do not know what you mean with the whole Dominate Monster thing, but I do know that Xykon is immune against mind-affecting and that Red Cloak as a cleric has a high Will save.

Regarding Control Undead: Xykon's Will save is also very high, as he's a sorcerer. We also need to keep in mind that OOTS characters are rarely optimized and that most wizards seem to be specialized on a school. Dorukan is probably an abjurer, seeing as magic sigils and wards are his forte, and from the battle we know that neither evocation nor conjuration are forbidden schools for him. Who's to say wether his forbidden schools are enchantment and/or necromancy?

Finally, I'm not willing to call someone incompetent who opens a fight by gating in angels and manages to counter most of Xykon's favourite battle spells (evocations like lightning, fireball and so on). No, Dorukan was not suicidical, he was simply distraught and not really thinking straight.

[Unoriginal]

I have to wonder about Dorukon's incompetence in his fight with Xykon. Energy Drain is trivially easy to ward against, and he had to know that would be an issue against a lich. Dominate Monster, or a half-dozen similar spells, could have been used to induce Xykon to eliminate RC and, of all things, Control Undead was still a potential option even after several lost levels to Energy Drain.

It's almost as if Dorukon wished to be trapped in the gem.

Dorukan was not as accustomed at dueling high-level spellcasters as Xykon is, and a Wizard taking a challenge with whatever spells they have prepared for the day rather than retreat and prepare for it specifically negates the class's biggest advantage

Dorukan lost because Xykon was ready for a slaughter and he wasn't, due to his anger, not because he wanted to lose.

[Peelee]

I have to wonder about Dorukon's incompetence in his fight with Xykon. Energy Drain is trivially easy to ward against, and he had to know that would be an issue against a lich. Dominate Monster, or a half-dozen similar spells, could have been used to induce Xykon to eliminate RC and, of all things, Control Undead was still a potential option even after several lost levels to Energy Drain.

It's almost as if Dorukon wished to be trapped in the gem.

The story starts out with Dorukan gone. It's already a given that he falls to Xykon, and Start of Darkness is now about Dorukan falling, so the specifics on "how" are largely irrelevant. Replace the fight with any other headcanon fight if you wish for your own personal satisfaction. It's like Revenge of the Sith - why Anakin falls is important to the story, but the final fight against Kenobi isn't at all. And i understand exactly where you're coming from vis a vis Dorukan's fight because i am largely apathetic to Anakin and Kenobi's fight - the why is already settled, the outcome is already settled, and i find zero value in watching two people dance around with glowsticks for a half an hour. Once the narrative climax of Redcloak and Right-eye is resolved, Dorukan goes down quick, because there's no purpose to drawing out the fight any longer other than visuals. And trust me, that's the better way to go.

[KorvinStarmast]

Crystal came up as an example of a character who had an ending and was brought back anyways, and while I personally liked that final encounter with her I know there were people who didn't and thought that bringing her back after she'd be taken care of was a waste of space. I am one such. {1}

Of course You are confusing the thought process with the conclusion. The topic is not "Is this the best possible ending for (spoiler) and (spoiler)?" The thread title is "What's going to happen to the souls of (spoiler) and (spoiler)?"

My prediction, based on my evaluation of their ending and my beliefs about Rich's approach to story-writing, is that they won't have any more substantive story (though they may show up for a panel or two).

Yes, this conclusion will be proven wrong if Rich tells more substantive story about them. Your take is about the same as mine, other than you seem to have given it a bit more thought than I ever did.

There is also a whirlwind (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0972.html) tour (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0973.html) of Golem (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0974.html) traits (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0977.html) she delivers. I suppose that folks who have not played D&D appreciate the exposition.


I think, "We can make predictions and grant Rich choice at the same time," is a great answer. The choices that Rich makes are not yours to grant. :smallconfused:

{1} One of the few aspects which Crystal as Golem helped to underscore is how D&D magic gets in the way of storytelling in terms of its impact on death of a character.
Rich has written some good points/posts about Resurrect, raise dead, etc and what it does to stories and tension. Crystal being destroyed in hot lava was a fitting end, but Haley ending her during the thieves guild fight was more than sufficient.

[gbaji]

So clearly it is impossible for the Order to find the gem and determine what it is since no one told them.[/sarcasm]

I never said that. I only said that if there is to be any additional interaction with them at all, it will include some sort of discovery of the gem, and who is inside it, narratively presented to the readers in the main strip/book. And *then* there may be some resolution/mention of Durokan and Lirian. This absolutely includes exactly what you just described. Remember it's the readers who need to be told that Durokan and Lirian are in the gem. This can absolutely happen via the Order finding the gem, and determining (on panel) who is inside.

I was specifically responding to a proposed ending to the book, in which no one ever finds the gem, nor ever talks about the gem, but the readers are shown the gem, sitting on a table somewhere (maybe in Xykon's fortress), and zooming in to show Durokan and Lirian inside, dancing together for the rest of eternity. That would be an ending that would cause every single reader who has *not* read SoD, to just go "huh? Who are they and why are they in a gem?". Because, if you don't include some narration in the actual strip/book about them being in the gem, then showing them in the gem at the end, doesn't have any impact or import at all to the readers.


I believe that Lirian and Dorukan already have the ending that best wraps up the story as Rich perceives story-telling. If I am correct in my understanding of Rich's story-telling, then they will not have any more major story.

Yup. But let's also recall, that as far as readers of the main strip/book(s) are concerned, that "ending" is "Xykon killed them both", and not "Xykon trapped them inside a soul gem". That's a perfectly fine ending, and can be left right there. *Or* Rich could incorporate their actual fate (trapped in the soul gem) into the main story in some way, and add a new/different resolution for them (the Order discovers the gem, realizes there's souls inside, Serini identifies them as her two friends, and they destroy the gem to release them to their afterlives perhaps).

But no. They will have no major part to play in the actual story and its resolution. They are not going to find the gem, release their souls and use some sort of true resurrrection to restore them to life, and then have them fix the problems the Order is facing. Durokan and Lirian's contribution to the story is already past and done.

[brian 333]

Death Ward is not on the Wizard spell list and I'm pretty sure there's nothing else in the core that can defend against negative levels, making it not trivial. Nor does "lich" automatically mean negative levels.

I do not know what you mean with the whole Dominate Monster thing, but I do know that Xykon is immune against mind-affecting and that Red Cloak as a cleric has a high Will save.

Regarding Control Undead: Xykon's Will save is also very high, as he's a sorcerer. We also need to keep in mind that OOTS characters are rarely optimized and that most wizards seem to be specialized on a school. Dorukan is probably an abjurer, seeing as magic sigils and wards are his forte, and from the battle we know that neither evocation nor conjuration are forbidden schools for him. Who's to say wether his forbidden schools are enchantment and/or necromancy?

Finally, I'm not willing to call someone incompetent who opens a fight by gating in angels and manages to counter most of Xykon's favourite battle spells (evocations like lightning, fireball and so on). No, Dorukan was not suicidical, he was simply distraught and not really thinking straight.

Funny, but Nale keeps stockpiles potions on hand to prevent level loss to Energy Drain, but Dorukon can't find one. (Not being able to cast a spell is not the same as not having access to it.)

I am aware of the circumstances of the fight. I am aware why Dorukon did what he did. I am aware that The Giant wanted the fight to go the way it was written.

Dorukon had half-a-year to prepare for a fight with Xykon, and that was his best shot? Still looks like he lost on purpose.

[Emberlily]

I feel it important to reiterate that that was demonstrably not his best shot. his best shot was "goad xykon into attacking him in the midst of his heavily-abjured fortress". as was mentioned specifically by him in dialogue, dorukan had not expected to find any reason to attack xykon, himself, until he was put in a spot where on an emotional level he did not have time to just wait until the next day's spells or to send magical servants to go on a specific potion run

[brian 333]

I feel it important to reiterate that that was demonstrably not his best shot. his best shot was "goad xykon into attacking him in the midst of his heavily-abjured fortress". as was mentioned specifically by him in dialogue, dorukan had not expected to find any reason to attack xykon, himself, until he was put in a spot where on an emotional level he did not have time to just wait until the next day's spells or to send magical servants to go on a specific potion run

Half a year to prepare. Batman could have done it in half an hour.

[KorvinStarmast]

Still looks like he lost on purpose. No. He lost by making a mistake.
Famous quote from Murphy's Laws of Combat that comes to us from either Bonaparte or Jomini:
never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake. (https://www.socratic-method.com/quote-meanings/napoleon-bonaparte-never-interrupt-your-enemy-when-he-is-making-a-mistake)

[Tubercular Ox]

The choices that Rich makes are not yours to grant. :smallconfused:

I meant grant in the sense of granting an assumption or premise. When people tell me a panel written in 2007 is profound enough to predict the story in 2024, there’s a whole bunch of stuff I have to grant to make sense of the certainty:

Rich knew Lirian and Dorukan’s entire story before he wrote Start of Darkness, despite telling us he’s half spontaneous, half planned.

Rich faithfully conveyed the entirety of that story during the writing of Start of Darkness, despite saving any number of other surprises for later.

Rich never changed his mind about the end of Lirian and Dorukan’s story in the many years of personal growth after writing Start of Darkness.

In short, I have to grant that Rich made all his choices in the past and has none left to make now.

I like, “Only Rich can prove me wrong,” because it implies that Rich can make the decision to prove Jay wrong at any time, not just in the beginning, whether Jay meant that or not. And I like Errorname’s observation that Lirian and Dorukan coming back doesn’t necessarily prove Jay wrong.

[Errorname]

Half a year to prepare. Batman could have done it in half an hour.

Yeah, because Batman is booked to win. He gets to regularly kick the ass of people who should annihilate him because he's the flagship hero of a company and everyone writing him grew up dreaming about getting to write Batman.

Dorukan is booked to lose, and getting goaded into a fight you are not prepared for because the villain taunted you with the reanimated corpse and imprisoned soul of your dead girlfriend is a good enough justification, especially since he does still put up a decent fight. It does feel like something that could have gone the other way had Dorukan forced the engagement on more favourable terms.

[Emberlily]

Half a year to prepare. Batman could have done it in half an hour.
yes, and he spent that half of a year presumably preparing to fight xykon within his heavily abjured fortress that he was trying to defend. since he was an abjurer with a fortress he was relying on, we can presume he had many many specifically anti-xykon defenses set up inside that fortress over those six months that never came up bc they weren't important to show after a very potent emotional climax of the story. to reiterate again, he did not anticipate having any reason at all to fight xykon anywhere else, since his entire mission was "defend the thing inside his fortress". you can criticize that, perhaps, but I feel it's a bit disingenuous to ignore that that was his explicitly-stated-in-dialogue thought process

[gbaji]

yes, and he spent that half of a year presumably preparing to fight xykon within his heavily abjured fortress that he was trying to defend. since he was an abjurer with a fortress he was relying on, we can presume he had many many specifically anti-xykon defenses set up inside that fortress over those six months that never came up bc they weren't important to show after a very potent emotional climax of the story. to reiterate again, he did not anticipate having any reason at all to fight xykon anywhere else, since his entire mission was "defend the thing inside his fortress". you can criticize that, perhaps, but I feel it's a bit disingenuous to ignore that that was his explicitly-stated-in-dialogue thought process

Eh. It is valid to point out that Durokan did have plenty of time to watch Xykon and have some idea what sort of spells Xykon would use against him. The main advantage that wizards have against sorcerers is greater magical flexibility. But the greatest weakeness that wizards have against sorcerers is also their greater magical flexibility. The sorcerer is always equally "prepared" for a fight on any given day. He's got the spells he's got, and he can just spam whichever ones work the best in the specific situation he's in. But the wizard can select his spell list each day, which can lead to being much better prepared for a magical conflict, or much worse prepared.

And at the end of the day, the author decided that Xykon was able to goad him out by threatening Lirian (what was left of her), and that he was less preparred to fight that battle (presumably had a set designed to synergize with his castle defenses, and not one designed for in the field combat). And that's why he lost. We can certainly question this (why not use potions to defend against energy drain, being an obvious one). But hey. Maybe he didn't have those potions handy. Maybe he was counting on other defenses set up in his castle to defend against or counter energy drain effects, so he just didn't have anything to counter it while outside. And yeah. Maybe a good part of it was a mix of anger at what Xykon had done (blinding his reason a bit), combined with the typical egotistical wizard assumption that sorcerers just aren't as powerful.

And to be fair to Durokan, at that point in time, he was quite possibly one of, if not the most powerful wizard in the world. But he was long out of the game, and hadn't actually had to cast spells in a combat situation in decades. That can absolutely make someone miss some key defensive point, and then panic when he realized he missed it, and then not take steps to deal with it properly. He was likely so accustomed to always being afforded the luxury of taking his time that he just didn't know what to do once flustered. And yeah. The story requires that Durokan lose to Xykon, so that's what happened.

[brian 333]

yes, and he spent that half of a year presumably preparing to fight xykon within his heavily abjured fortress that he was trying to defend. since he was an abjurer with a fortress he was relying on, we can presume he had many many specifically anti-xykon defenses set up inside that fortress over those six months that never came up bc they weren't important to show after a very potent emotional climax of the story. to reiterate again, he did not anticipate having any reason at all to fight xykon anywhere else, since his entire mission was "defend the thing inside his fortress". you can criticize that, perhaps, but I feel it's a bit disingenuous to ignore that that was his explicitly-stated-in-dialogue thought process

Since I do not dispute his thought process, the whole point is being smothered in an irrelevance.

But his thought process is itself relevant. That he had half a year and was unprepared for this contingency speaks of faulty planning. It didn't take half a year to reinforce his long-planned defense of the gate. He had time to wonder, "What if..."

That fact is my point. He had time. He had intelligence. He didn't plan ahead. Why?

[Tzardok]

That's the point of the counterarguments: He did plan ahead. For the wrong eventuality.

[InvisibleBison]

Since I do not dispute his thought process, the whole point is being smothered in an irrelevance.

But his thought process is itself relevant. That he had half a year and was unprepared for this contingency speaks of faulty planning. It didn't take half a year to reinforce his long-planned defense of the gate. He had time to wonder, "What if..."

That fact is my point. He had time. He had intelligence. He didn't plan ahead. Why?

Dorukan came to the conclusion, presumably fairly quickly after Xykon showed up, that Xykon didn't have anything he wanted, and therefore there was no reason to go out and fight Xykon. That is why he didn't prepare for fighting Xykon outside of his fortress - he had determined such a fight would never happen, and so preparing for it would be a waste of time. He turned out to be wrong, but being smart is no defense against that.

[KorvinStarmast]

Yeah, because Batman is booked to win. He gets to regularly kick the ass of people who should annihilate him because he's the flagship hero of a company and everyone writing him grew up dreaming about getting to write Batman.

Dorukan is booked to lose, and getting goaded into a fight you are not prepared for because the villain taunted you with the reanimated corpse and imprisoned soul of your dead girlfriend is a good enough justification, especially since he does still put up a decent fight. It does feel like something that could have gone the other way had Dorukan forced the engagement on more favourable terms. Hard to disagree. Making mistakes is a thing that characters do (see Durkula ...)

I meant grant in the sense of granting an assumption or premise. Well, for me it goes without saying, but thanks for clarifying.

[Ruck]

To be fair, Lirian is literally saying it's not a prison, and we're all convinced she can't mean it because we think it's a terrible situation.

Their expressions don't look to me like people happy or relieved to be reunited. They look like two people trying to console one another.

[KorvinStarmast]

Their expressions don't look to me like people happy or relieved to be reunited. They look like two people trying to console one another.
Misery loves company. That's one way to look at it.
The other way to look at it is: "no matter what you are doing, it's who you are with that matters"

[Ruck]

Misery loves company. That's one way to look at it.
The other way to look at it is: "no matter what you are doing, it's who you are with that matters"

Mostly, in the context of this conversation, I look at it as "I don't think their story wraps up without them being freed from the Soul Bind gem."

[Gurgeh]

Misery loves company.
Funnily enough, I've always understood this phrase to be about the tendency of unhappy people to lash out and hurt others, rather than be about people looking for solace.

[gbaji]

But his thought process is itself relevant. That he had half a year and was unprepared for this contingency speaks of faulty planning. It didn't take half a year to reinforce his long-planned defense of the gate. He had time to wonder, "What if..."

That fact is my point. He had time. He had intelligence. He didn't plan ahead. Why?

Wizards don't plan today's spell selection 6 months ahead of time. He literally woke up that morning assuming "I'm picking a spell set to assist me in defending my castle against that crazy undead thing outside". Then, he decided to go outside and fight him there instead. The planning ahead was all about setting up the defenses, wards, glyphs, and whatnot inside his castle to make it impervious to assault. His spell selection on any given day was presumably based on synergizing with that objective and whatever other spells he planned to use that day for whatever other random projects/experiments he had going on.

There's just not a lot of planning ahead one can do as a wizard for "fighting outside my stronghold", other than "pick a spell selection for fighting outside my stronghold". And that's never going to be about what you did in the previous 6 months, and always going to be about what you did in the last 8 hours. The fact that he sat in his castle for 6 months actually runs counter to what you are saying. Durokan had no greater reason to think he'd be fighting Xykon outside his defenses today than any other day in the previous 6 months. So we can sit here and speculate about all of the preparations he could have made for that eventuality, but the fact is that this didn't happen (fighting Xykon outside) for 6 months. There was certainly no special urgency that particular morning for him to prep for this.

Now, yes. You are correct, with perfect 20/20 hindsight, that Durokan *should* have planned for this, just in case something happened that would force him to leave his defenses and fight Xykon outside. But, again, the very fact that he seemed perfectly ok with just sitting there for so long with Xykon outside, suggests he just didn't think he needed to do this, nor would ever need to do this. If he had thought of this potentiality, he almost certainly would have come up with a plan and attacked Xykon much sooner. He didn't, so it's not unreasonable that he also didn't have a plan laid out for when he actually did go outside to face Xykon. His "plan" was "make him attack me where I"m strongest". Why plan for doing something with higher risk and lower chance of success? The plan would be "don't do that".

[brian 333]

Wizards don't plan today's spell selection 6 months ahead of time. He literally woke up that morning assuming "I'm picking a spell set to assist me in defending my castle against that crazy undead thing outside". Then, he decided to go outside and fight him there instead. The planning ahead was all about setting up the defenses, wards, glyphs, and whatnot inside his castle to make it impervious to assault. His spell selection on any given day was presumably based on synergizing with that objective and whatever other spells he planned to use that day for whatever other random projects/experiments he had going on.

There's just not a lot of planning ahead one can do as a wizard for "fighting outside my stronghold", other than "pick a spell selection for fighting outside my stronghold". And that's never going to be about what you did in the previous 6 months, and always going to be about what you did in the last 8 hours. The fact that he sat in his castle for 6 months actually runs counter to what you are saying. Durokan had no greater reason to think he'd be fighting Xykon outside his defenses today than any other day in the previous 6 months. So we can sit here and speculate about all of the preparations he could have made for that eventuality, but the fact is that this didn't happen (fighting Xykon outside) for 6 months. There was certainly no special urgency that particular morning for him to prep for this.

Now, yes. You are correct, with perfect 20/20 hindsight, that Durokan *should* have planned for this, just in case something happened that would force him to leave his defenses and fight Xykon outside. But, again, the very fact that he seemed perfectly ok with just sitting there for so long with Xykon outside, suggests he just didn't think he needed to do this, nor would ever need to do this. If he had thought of this potentiality, he almost certainly would have come up with a plan and attacked Xykon much sooner. He didn't, so it's not unreasonable that he also didn't have a plan laid out for when he actually did go outside to face Xykon. His "plan" was "make him attack me where I"m strongest". Why plan for doing something with higher risk and lower chance of success? The plan would be "don't do that".

I completely get the reasons why, in comic, Dorukon chose to do what he did.

My point is simply that, with six months of planning, Dorukon never bothered to pick up a scroll of Undeath to Death. Or any of a dozen other things he could have done. He knew what he was up against. He had a TeeVo with a replay feature.

I know that The Giant had already killed him before the book was written, and was not interested in doing a long, drawn-out battle scene with a foregone conclusion.

And it is obvious that for reasons which in no way justify the result, Dorukon did not bring his A-game. This from a guy who hates playing wizards and all their variants because whenever he was not DM he had to play the party wizard.

The only way the scenario as presented makes sense to me is if Dorukon gave up. He wanted to die. He had his Butch Cassidy moment and then just stood there while Xykon killed him.

[Emberlily]

I completely get the reasons why, in comic, Dorukon chose to do what he did.

My point is simply that, with six months of planning, Dorukon never bothered to pick up a scroll of Undeath to Death. Or any of a dozen other things he could have done. He knew what he was up against. He had a TeeVo with a replay feature.

I know that The Giant had already killed him before the book was written, and was not interested in doing a long, drawn-out battle scene with a foregone conclusion.

And it is obvious that for reasons which in no way justify the result, Dorukon did not bring his A-game. This from a guy who hates playing wizards and all their variants because whenever he was not DM he had to play the party wizard.

The only way the scenario as presented makes sense to me is if Dorukon gave up. He wanted to die. He had his Butch Cassidy moment and then just stood there while Xykon killed him.
you keep giving examples of things he could've done that would help him should he go into the field. and yes, he did miss a lot of opportunities for that! but that's because he was focusing on things that would help him when xykon ran out of patience and tried to storm the tower.

maybe an abjurer wizard as a player character on a table might not play this way, but I feel like for a less-than-tertiary character, having the Abjurer-focused wizard put all his efforts into improving his defenses is a good sort of writing move. keeps things focused. and from the in-universe standpoint, it also makes sense, because if xykon never attacks, dorukan wins. if xykon attacks in dorukan's prepared defenses, dorukan wins. if dorukan attacks xykon, dorukan could easily lose. and since he had no foreseeable reason to attack xykon in the field, why waste time he could be improving his defenses preparing for a losing game?

unless you find the story to be improved by reading against the grain that dorukan deliberately let himself die (it doesn't sound like this is the case?), why not try to find a reading of the text that does? how about, dorukan spent 16hr every day of those six months casting his trademark abjuration spells to make the most absolutely xykon-destroying and xykon-attack-mitigating outer defenses for his castle? I think it's a little exaggerated (the 16hr every day that is), but as a general concept, I do in fact think this is the easiest and most sensible read of his actions. again, he had no reason to ever believe he'd need to invest in defenses that were portable

[Errorname]

The only way the scenario as presented makes sense to me is if Dorukon gave up. He wanted to die. He had his Butch Cassidy moment and then just stood there while Xykon killed him.

I mean, do you accept the premise of the scene that Xykon drew Dorukan out into a fight he wasn't prepared for and managed to beat him? Because to me that's pretty reasonable. Xykon is also a pretty powerful spellcaster and a wizard who isn't prepared for a duel is at a major disadvantage. Maybe the way it's presented doesn't sell that concept as well as it could, doesn't let Dorukan put up as much of a fight as he would, but mind that the story during Dorukan's duel with Xykon isn't about Dorukan, it's about the climax of Redcloak and Right-Eye's stories in that book.

Would the story be improved by taking time away from Redcloak deciding to murder his brother to focus on showing Dorukan's defeat in more depth.

[Unoriginal]

Several other points that matter:


1) Dorukan, on top of not having been in a high-level magic battle for decades, became an Epic level Wizard by fighting the good fight with a full party, as opposed to Xykon who was a solo act any time he could on top of being far up to date on his "fight strong opponent" game.

2) Both Dorukan and Xykon were intentionally trying to goad each other into a mistake. And both of them knew that. Dorukan was smart enough to know which buttons to push, and it could have worked with flesh-n-blood Xykon, but as a Sorcerer, Xykon was much more charismatic and could sledgehammer Dorukan's buttons when he finally found them like only an immoral, sadistic monster could.

3) Related to 2), the battle is also here to showcase how Lich!Xykon is a different level of threat from his mortal days, after he got used to it. He is smarter and wiser, and with a level of detachment that allows him far more angles to exploit.

4) Even if Dorukan didn't charge in a blind rage to play a FPS with a spell selection meant for tower defense, and he had gone 'alright, tomorrow I'll beat him, I'll drink that potion to protect against energy drains just before the fight since I can't cast it myself"... Xykon has Suberb Dispel and isn't afraid to use it against worthwhile opponents.

5) Once imprisoned, Dorukan clearly declares he failed, and is unhappy about their fates. It is Lirian who points out at least they have each other.

So the idea Dorukan wanted to lose just doesn't hold water.

[Tubercular Ox]

Well, for me it goes without saying, but thanks for clarifying.

Do you think Crystal Golem was the plan at the time Haley first killed her?

[KorvinStarmast]

Mostly, in the context of this conversation, I look at it as "I don't think their story wraps up without them being freed from the Soul Bind gem." Hmm, the story can wrap up without it, but I'd rather it worked out that way.

Funnily enough, I've always understood this phrase to be about the tendency of unhappy people to lash out and hurt others, rather than be about people looking for solace. That's not how it was explained to me, but I suspect there are a lot of ways to interpret that old adage.

Do you think Crystal Golem was the plan at the time Haley first killed her?
(1) don't know and (2) don't care.

I recall that Rich has said (not sure if it was a forum post or a bit in his commentary in one of the books) that somewhere strip 150 (or was it 100?) e'd roughed in most of what the major arcs looked like.
He may have gotten to that idea before the death of Crystal in Greysky City happened. Or not.
Doesn't really matter, to me.

[Tubercular Ox]

(1) don't know and (2) don't care.

I recall that Rich has said (not sure if it was a forum post or a bit in his commentary in one of the books) that somewhere strip 150 (or was it 100?) e'd roughed in most of what the major arcs looked like.
He may have gotten to that idea before the death of Crystal in Greysky City happened. Or not.
Doesn't really matter, to me.

This pays lip service to, "Well, for me it goes without saying [that Rich can make choices]," while also believing that Rich's choices don't matter and aren't worth considering.

[KorvinStarmast]

This pays lip service to, "Well, for me it goes without saying [that Rich can make choices]," while also believing that Rich's choices don't matter and aren't worth considering.The second part are your words, not mine, so perhaps you should in the future not try to put your words into my mouth.
It's really rude.

[Precure]

I don't think Dorukan, even slightly, planned anything for Xykon. From what I gather, he was simply ignoring him.

About Crystal, I surmise that Rich bring her back to quickly wrap up the Greysky plotlines. But personally I'd prefer the original ending, as the new one left it unclear who's gonna fill the power vacuum left by Bozzok's demise, even though it was a big plot point back then.

[Ruck]

Hmm, the story can wrap up without it, but I'd rather it worked out that way.

Yeah, I mean, they're minor enough characters that the story could wrap up without it. But the original claim was that their story was definitely over, there was no point in revisiting it, and their conclusion was fitting and satisfying. That's what I don't agree with.

[Unoriginal]

Regarding Crystal, I want to point out that Haley and Crystal discussed how Bozzok would just pay to raise her back from the dead (Crystal being sure of it, Haley acknowledging it was likely but not caring), and Haley even imagined Crystal being alive when under the Draketooth's "perfect ending" illusion.

Her showing up before the epilogue as a golem was the surprise, but her showing up again wasn't.

For Lirian and Dorukan, them showing up again is a distinct possibility, since both Xykon and Serini are heading in the same direction, and the business at hand directly relates to the imprisoned lovers.

[No good @ names]

Of course, that might just be Giant laying a false trail.

Or it’s character building - how evil and vindictive is Xykon? He’s not satisfied with just killing these two, he wants to deny them the afterlife too.

Not everyone gets a happy ending or preferred afterlife - Miko, Therkla, Eugene, Goblin master craftsman, random gnome merchant…

[Blue Dragon]

From what I know reading about Start of Darkness, it already happened.