I'm starting to miss 3.5 and I feel crazy for it!

[Ozreth]

But this is a 3.5 forum, so I know you'll all talk me into going back to it :)

I started with 3.5 around 2003/4. When 4e came out we played a handful of games and decided to skip it. I was the DM for my group almost this entire time, with a few stints of being a player. I generally prefer DMing.

By the time 5e came out, I was burnt out. We didn't even use many of the books beyond core and none of my players cared to minmax and nobody mastered the system well enough to do so anyways. But as a DM the rules were starting to weigh me down and I had been getting involved in the OSR and looking back to 1e and 2e. I had also been wanting to tailor my D&D games more to the type of fantasy I grew up reading, particularly the Elric novels and Lord of the Rings. Older styles seemed to suit this better.

Then 5e came out and we all jumped ship. It felt like the perfect balance for us and it was so much easier on me as a DM. I also ran a few games using 2e and Castles & Crusades, and I own a handful of OSR rulebooks, my favorite being OSE.

Now, in 2023, it's been a few years since I've actually ran a game. I just read a lot about OSE stuff. While we played a lot of 5e, I'm not particularly attached to it, but figured when I started running games again it would be with 5e, if not OSE. When 5e came out I vowed that I would never run 3.5 again.

But now the time has come and after all these years I'm looking back fondly on 3.5e. My original draw to dungeons & dragons was the sheer verisimilitude presented in the PHB and DMG, and for all I knew, that was Dungeons & Dragons. In the beginning editions meant nothing to me and I couldn't have known how much the game changed from TSR editions.

The vast amount of interesting rules to present a living, breathing game world in our heads and on the table were intimidating and exciting to me. Looking back, a lot of what I came to feel slowed our game down are actually some of the things that made for the best memories. Discussing (we never argued) minutiae of rules around the table, laughing at character builds that people came to the table with, the rules lending themselves to enhancing experiences both in and out of combat etc. The game felt so deep and nuanced and like a labor of love. It's wild and sometimes all over the place and sometimes in over it's own head. But it's all part of the charm.

5e, while a beautifully streamlined game, is starting to feel a lot more "safe" of a system to me. A bit bland. Not something that I can grow with over many years. Not enough soul maybe.

Maybe this is all nostalgia talking, but I wanted to write it down. I'll probably throw it on Reddit as well to a not specifically 3.5 crowd and see how people react.

Tonight I'll be flipping through my 3.5 PHB and pulling some old modules off the shelf for some inspiration.

Anybody else go down a similar path?

PS - I haven't posted here in years. Where did all of the pages of threads god?

[King of Nowhere]

But this is a 3.5 forum, so I know you'll all talk me into going back to it :)

I started with 3.5 around 2003/4. When 4e came out we played a handful of games and decided to skip it. I was the DM for my group almost this entire time, with a few stints of being a player. I generally prefer DMing.

By the time 5e came out, I was burnt out. We didn't even use many of the books beyond core and none of my players cared to minmax and nobody mastered the system well enough to do so anyways. But as a DM the rules were starting to weigh me down and I had been getting involved in the OSR and looking back to 1e and 2e. I had also been wanting to tailor my D&D games more to the type of fantasy I grew up reading, particularly the Elric novels and Lord of the Rings. Older styles seemed to suit this better.

Then 5e came out and we all jumped ship. It felt like the perfect balance for us and it was so much easier on me as a DM. I also ran a few games using 2e and Castles & Crusades, and I own a handful of OSR rulebooks, my favorite being OSE.

Now, in 2023, it's been a few years since I've actually ran a game. I just read a lot about OSE stuff. While we played a lot of 5e, I'm not particularly attached to it, but figured when I started running games again it would be with 5e, if not OSE. When 5e came out I vowed that I would never run 3.5 again.

But now the time has come and after all these years I'm looking back fondly on 3.5e. My original draw to dungeons & dragons was the sheer verisimilitude presented in the PHB and DMG, and for all I knew, that was Dungeons & Dragons. In the beginning editions meant nothing to me and I couldn't have known how much the game changed from TSR editions.

The vast amount of interesting rules to present a living, breathing game world in our heads and on the table were intimidating and exciting to me. Looking back, a lot of what I came to feel slowed our game down are actually some of the things that made for the best memories. Discussing (we never argued) minutiae of rules around the table, laughing at character builds that people came to the table with, the rules lending themselves to enhancing experiences both in and out of combat etc. The game felt so deep and nuanced and like a labor of love. It's wild and sometimes all over the place and sometimes in over it's own head. But it's all part of the charm.

5e, while a beautifully streamlined game, is starting to feel a lot more "safe" of a system to me. A bit bland. Not something that I can grow with over many years. Not enough soul maybe.

Maybe this is all nostalgia talking, but I wanted to write it down. I'll probably throw it on Reddit as well to a not specifically 3.5 crowd and see how people react.

Tonight I'll be flipping through my 3.5 PHB and pulling some old modules off the shelf for some inspiration.

Anybody else go down a similar path?

PS - I haven't posted here in years. Where did all of the pages of threads god?

well, if you still have your old group, convert to 3.5 immediately! 5e is easier, but it's like the dark side: easier does not mean stronger. in fact, the more one is practiced, the more one can enjoy 3.5

[JNAProductions]

Use whichever system you have more fun with.

Tweak as your group sees fit, and borrow freely from other systems.

[pabelfly]

well, if you still have your old group, convert to 3.5 immediately! 5e is easier, but it's like the dark side: easier does not mean stronger. in fact, the more one is practiced, the more one can enjoy 3.5

3e and 5e are filling different niches, and liking one over the other is more personal preference than objective taste.

As to the OP, I'd suggest running it. You might have to pull DMing duties for a while though, at least until another player decides they want to help fill the role and are more comfortable with the rules, but it sounds like you won't mind that.

[Ozreth]

well, if you still have your old group, convert to 3.5 immediately! 5e is easier, but it's like the dark side: easier does not mean stronger. in fact, the more one is practiced, the more one can enjoy 3.5

Thankfully it is still the same group. There are about 10 of us who started playing together between 2003 and 2005 and all still play together and the group makeup is whoever can make the time slot for the current campaign, which is never all of us.

As players they are less concerned about which edition we play, the just didn't enjoy 4e, but would probably even play that if it is what I was running. And I agree 3.5 rewards you for learning the system well in a way that some other editions don't seem to. And I don't mean by power, but by immersion.

[Ozreth]

3e and 5e are filling different niches, and liking one over the other is more personal preference than objective taste.

As to the OP, I'd suggest running it. You might have to pull DMing duties for a while though, at least until another player decides they want to help fill the role and are more comfortable with the rules, but it sounds like you won't mind that.

I would be the DM for sure, which is my preference anyways :smallsmile:

And I do like 5e! I think I'm just growing to appreciate what 3.5 had on offer in a way that I didn't have the perspective to appreciate years ago.

I'm currently eyeing Age of Worms as it's one of the few of the well known adventures that I haven't run or played in.

[OracleofWuffing]

PS - I haven't posted here in years. Where did all of the pages of threads god?
When you're looking at the thread list, scroll down to the "Thread Display Options" and play around with the "Show threads from the..." drop down box. I believe it defaults to "Last 45 days," so you can select "Beginning" to go further back in time.

[H_H_F_F]

If your players have a good handle on the mechanics, definitely go for 3.5 if you miss it! It's more work as a DM, sure, but if everyone around the table gets the system I agree it just offers so much more.

[Leon]

Was still playing it up till the start of 2020 and that group wouldn't go online so it stopped, never played 4e (I ran one game as a demo when it first came out) and then played in 1.5 games of 5e and realized what a hollow shell it was of the game I know and like. Gently trying to kindle interest in Pathfinder 1e as I have a number of friends who played it a lot and I like it for its similarity's to 3.5 (even better than 3.5 it has Inquisitors)

[icefractal]

I totally get that feeling - it's not as far a jump for me, since I still play games in the 3.x family (PF1, mostly), but 3.0 has a certain feel that's interesting different from the later ones, to the extent I'm considering running it again some time (although not having many of the book anymore is inconvenient).

[Ozreth]

I totally get that feeling - it's not as far a jump for me, since I still play games in the 3.x family (PF1, mostly), but 3.0 has a certain feel that's interesting different from the later ones, to the extent I'm considering running it again some time (although not having many of the book anymore is inconvenient).

3.0 always intrigued me. I've flipped through the books often but aside from some combat features feeling less tied to a grid I never got the feeling that the game would play that much differently. But I've seen a lot of anecdotes like yours so there must be something to it.

[Pugwampy]

Then 5e came out and we all jumped ship.

Not me . I started on DND 3.5 in 2008 2 years later my cousin told me about Pathfinder so I looked it up and was very much impressed . I showed my fave DM and he along with all my other club buddies jumped into my 3.5 Pathfinder hybrid campaign in Fearun.

I only bought the starter box and half dozen 5e minis . I liked reading the Mines of Phandelver adventure booklet .

Other than that I am still a hardcore 3.PF Dungeon Master . I will never DM 5th edition . I might try playing it if someone else DM,s it .

[holbita]

I will not talk about character creation, we all know that 3.5 is full posibilites while 5e in comparison is like playing the same build no matter what class you choose.

What I want to compare here is the game pace. 5e has resting rules, surviving an adventure is basically a given and even if you die it's not much of an issue. Hazards, poisons, traps, etc. all of that is an actual problem for the characters to go through, combat is challenging and requires a lot more strategy and positioning in 3.5... and much much more.

If you just want to focus on story and plot I would say stay with 5e (or skip it completely and play cypher, much better system if you just want to do story and don't want to deal with mechanics slowing you down), but if you want to enjoy the crunch with the group? play 3.5, the adventures will feel more dangerous and your decisions more meaningful.

This can be bad some times, specially if you have players that don't enjoy the tragedies, if you have someone that will want to stop playing if their gear is sundered for example. 3.5 has way more risk and that's not for everyone.

But seems to me that risk and excitement is exactly what you are looking so... go for it!

[King of Nowhere]

I will not talk about character creation, we all know that 3.5 is full posibilites while 5e in comparison is like playing the same build no matter what class you choose.

What I want to compare here is the game pace. 5e has resting rules, surviving an adventure is basically a given and even if you die it's not much of an issue. Hazards, poisons, traps, etc. all of that is an actual problem for the characters to go through, combat is challenging and requires a lot more strategy and positioning in 3.5... and much much more.

3.5 has way more risk and that's not for everyone.

But seems to me that risk and excitement is exactly what you are looking so... go for it!

I'd think that depends more on the dm and his style than on the edition. You can play 3.5 easy mode and give the party only level appropriate challenges - any moderately optimized, moderately competent party will roflstomp those. You can play hard more 5e by adding monsters and challenges.

I guess people who liked a casual game with minimal tactical involvment converted to the easier 5e, while those that liked hard fights remained with 3.5. So, a case of self-selecting groups

[pabelfly]

What I want to compare here is the game pace. 5e has resting rules, surviving an adventure is basically a given and even if you die it's not much of an issue. Hazards, poisons, traps, etc. all of that is an actual problem for the characters to go through, combat is challenging and requires a lot more strategy and positioning in 3.5... and much much more.

I've found 5e plays quicker because there are less rules and you don't need to spend as much time referring to various mechanics. 3e plays slower but there's rules for just about everything, which take time to find, if you don't remember them, and to adjudicate.

[Ozreth]

What I want to compare here is the game pace. 5e has resting rules, surviving an adventure is basically a given and even if you die it's not much of an issue. Hazards, poisons, traps, etc. all of that is an actual problem for the characters to go through, combat is challenging and requires a lot more strategy and positioning in 3.5... and much much more.

If you just want to focus on story and plot I would say stay with 5e (or skip it completely and play cypher, much better system if you just want to do story and don't want to deal with mechanics slowing you down), but if you want to enjoy the crunch with the group? play 3.5, the adventures will feel more dangerous and your decisions more meaningful.

This can be bad some times, specially if you have players that don't enjoy the tragedies, if you have someone that will want to stop playing if their gear is sundered for example. 3.5 has way more risk and that's not for everyone.

But seems to me that risk and excitement is exactly what you are looking so... go for it!

I fully agree with this and it is the feeling we are finally getting with 5e. 3.5 maintained the gamey aspect, in fact doubled down on it. 5e is a move away from that and into collaborative story telling. Not a bad thing, and something I thought I wanted for some years, but the game is what I miss. Numbers and rules and restrictions that breed excitement and critical thinking and scary moments.


I've found 5e plays quicker because there are less rules and you don't need to spend as much time referring to various mechanics. 3e plays slower but there's rules for just about everything, which take time to find, if you don't remember them, and to adjudicate.

There are times when 5e did play a lot faster for us. Come to find, however, that a lot of that slowness and minutia and rules conversations was part of the charm for us. That, and we got to a point where we were really good at remembering most of the rules we used, and when they are fully realized it brings a lot of mechanical immersion to the table.

[ericgrau]

I like 5e's simplicity while still keeping most of the essential game elements. But simplicity can get repetitive. It is not at all unreasonable to go back to 3.5e now and then for something more in depth, even though it's more complicated and difficult to play.

[martixy]

Here's how it usually goes.

At first you learn the basics and tropes and shared assumptions. And it's all new and novel and exciting. At some point you get familiar and comfortable. You've tried all the standard stuff everyone tries in the beginning. You start wanting to experiment with what the system has to offer, creating more interesting things, subverting the old cliches. You run into the limits of the system. At which point you decide you're either happy playing in your little box, or you want more - that's when you start craving 3.5e.
Any of this sound close?
How many of you are tired of human fighter #24 and elf wizard #33?

Heck, this applies not just to gaming systems, but a lot of things in life.

[Jay R]

There is almost nothing in this world that is 100% bad. And there is almost nothing in this world that is 100% good.

3.5e is something you spent lots of time enjoying. It's not surprising to sometimes look back on it with fondness, or to want to have that enjoyment again. I still enjoy the Disney movies I loved as a kid.

In the last eighteen years, I have played 3.5e, AD&D 1e and 2e, and original whitebox D&D. It's all fun, and it's different fun. This is no different from watching different kinds of movies.

Play the game you want to play right now, and don't worry about it.

[ngilop]

Me, on the other hand...


Don't miss 3.5 at all.








But, That's because I still play it.

4th Ed while a good solid ruleset. Just never felt like D&D to me. 5th ed is blander than earlier editions and now boggled down with junk, and 6th ed looks more like the same. Pathfinder is good, being 3.75. pathfinder 2nd ed, though i'll never play and i will take it as an insult of anybody ever asks me to join.


3.5 to me is the height of D&D. You have the perfect mix.

[Pugwampy]

But this is a 3.5 forum, so I know you'll all talk me into going back to it :)

I started with 3.5 around 2003/4. When 4e came out we played a handful of games and decided to skip it. I was the DM for my group almost this entire time, with a few stints of being a player. I generally prefer DMing.


Big Question . Do you have a group who will play 3.5 with you ?



3.5 to me is the height of D&D. You have the perfect mix.

I myself was ducky imprinted . I never tried anything else or had other people willing to DM any other edition .

My original group owned 1st edition and 2nd edition books and ADND stuff and one guy had lots to say about PF and 3.5 but he was not willing to DM 2nd edition .

[Ozreth]

Big Question . Do you have a group who will play 3.5 with you ?


I do. We've had the same group of about 10 people since around around 2012, two of whom have been in my group since 2004 and 2005. I've been lucky in that regard, never a shortage of people and none of them have super strong opinions about editions, they just want to play whatever I run, though they have played 3.5 the most except for the person who joined when 5e hit and we moved to that.

[Ozreth]

There is almost nothing in this world that is 100% bad. And there is almost nothing in this world that is 100% good.

3.5e is something you spent lots of time enjoying. It's not surprising to sometimes look back on it with fondness, or to want to have that enjoyment again. I still enjoy the Disney movies I loved as a kid.

In the last eighteen years, I have played 3.5e, AD&D 1e and 2e, and original whitebox D&D. It's all fun, and it's different fun. This is no different from watching different kinds of movies.

Play the game you want to play right now, and don't worry about it.

The truest words.

[Snowbluff]

It's still my favorite system. 5e captures a lot of the feel in gameplay while doing some welcome streamlining/tweaking, IMO, but it fails to cover a lot of the ground 3.5 did with it's various subsystems.




4th Ed while a good solid ruleset. Just never felt like D&D to me. 5th ed is blander than earlier editions and now boggled down with junk, and 6th ed looks more like the same. Pathfinder is good, being 3.75. pathfinder 2nd ed, though i'll never play and i will take it as an insult of anybody ever asks me to join.



Being called DnD is probably the worst thing to have happened to 4e's reputation. I think it's a good game, just not a good replacement for the DnD editions I like.

PF2 though... it's like a mix of everything I didn't like about 3.5 and 4e coming back to haunt me. Just... why?

[Ignimortis]

Got in a PF1 game a few months back. After years of 5e and PF2, it's been a breath of fresh air, even though I'd started with 3.5 all those years ago. Yes, it's rather janky in places, and would certainly benefit from a once-over. But it's also just so much more receptive to whatever I want to play when I hear "D&D". Neither 5e nor PF2 really feel like the game I want to play, while 3.PF might not be that game by default, but it gets the feeling right, if that makes any sense.

I wish there was a spiritual successor to 3.5. Not to the 3e core, the worst part of the edition, but to 3.5 - subsystems for every few classes, varied means of accessing special powers, and enough building blocks to smorgasbord together a character that is both effective and flavourful.

[Asmotherion]

5e is not a bad system. It's good to introduce new players to our favorite past-time. But my (hot?) take on it is, it should be used as exactly that: an introduction. When the players get a bit more experienced, I switch systems to 3.5/Pf.

My personal problem with 5e (and I would wagger, many others) is it's now dominating the landscape to the point of it being dificult to find players for anything other than 5e. And I'm not just talking D&D. I'm talking about most ttrpgs out there. I've tried to run many different ttrpgs latelly, unsuccesfully because I couldn't find players.


It's still my favorite system. 5e captures a lot of the feel in gameplay while doing some welcome streamlining/tweaking, IMO, but it fails to cover a lot of the ground 3.5 did with it's various subsystems.



Being called DnD is probably the worst thing to have happened to 4e's reputation. I think it's a good game, just not a good replacement for the DnD editions I like.

PF2 though... it's like a mix of everything I didn't like about 3.5 and 4e coming back to haunt me. Just... why?

Bold text for emphasis: While I enjoy occasionally bashing on 4e, just for the laughs, my honest oppinion is exactly that. If it was somehow a non-d&d system, it could have been successful.

[Pugwampy]

My personal problem with 5e (and I would wager, many others) is it's now dominating the landscape to the point of it being difficult to find players for anything other than 5e.

A person who never played DND in his life wont differentiate between editions . You need to find those people .

Its natural for a 5e player to think older editions are outdated and will be less motivated to learn an older system.
Remind them 3rd edition is a different but equal system that was changed up so the company could make more money for better or worse

Sell the players that 3.PF has max supplemental books and class customizing options up the wazoo .

[Yora]

Oh man, me too...

I think I first even looked at the rules again after a decade two months ago when I was having thoughts about maybe actually running a game with the very memorable and evocative Unapproachable East book. Turned out to be more style over substance when I was trying to come up with a campaign idea, but that first had me reconsider my vow to never ever touch the d20 system again.

Since then, I had a really cool campaign concept that uses a lot of ideas from Manual of the Planes and Lords of Madness, and several cool creatures from Monsters of Faerûn. And lift some things from the Expanded Psionics Handbook. And at that point, why not just make it a 3rd edition D&D campaign right away?

I've since then settled on the following for what I want to do:
- Players Handbook and XPH for characters only.
- World capped at 12th character level and 6th spell level, with 11th and 12th level NPCs taking on the role and function of epic characters.
- Various elves and goliaths as main PC races.
- Reskinned goblins, avariel, ogers, and ghouls as special PC options.
- Chitines, gnolls, grimlocks, quaggoths, and skum as the monstrous races.
- Plane ot Shadows, Plane of Faerie, and Far Realm from MotP as the entire cosmology.
- Adapting much of the material from LoM for aboleths, mind flayers, grell, and tsochari to play the role of extraplar evil. (No fiends at all.)
- Psionics as Far Realm magic.

Wizards always pretty much ignored the Plane of Shadow as it was assumed to be uninhabited and leading nowhere. But it actually connects the Material Plane to the Far Realm. (No Astral Plane.) But occasionally their minds reach through, leaving their psionics imprints on tbe world. The focus of the campaign is meant to investigate some incredibly ancient and largely neglected ruins made of green glass and their connections to the Plane of Shadow. (Very much inspired by the old dungeon The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun.)

With a campaign concept like this, there really isn't anything like 3rd edition to run it with. Pathfinder could do it, but that game still overwhelms me with its scope.
I feel that PHB and XPH only, with a clear hard cap at 12th level, and no Prestige Classes, making characters for players and a cast of NPCs is actually not that hard. Focusing on 1st to 8th~ish level should keep encounters relatively simple affairs and avoid most problems with the number of moving parts growing out of hand.
And most importantly, I now have so much more experience as a GM and how adventures can be set up and run. Running a campaign like this really doesn't seem anywhere near as daunting as the game I left behind me a decade ago.

[Forrestfire]

Honestly, I never really stopped thinking about 3.5. Even though I play plenty of other systems (4e, occasionally 5e and pathfinder 1e and 2e, Lancer, various other indie titles), 3.5 just holds a soft spot in my heart. My group recently started and then finished a 3.5 campaign just for the sake of playing 3.5, it was fun. I'd love to play it more, but opportunities are often scarce.

Reading isn't scarce, though! This year I ended up coming back to it and making a ranger handbook I had been considering writing. I found a remarkable amount of stuff I'd never seen before and it's amazing to me that I still find new things in this mess of a system even 23 years later. If you're curious about seeing some new 3.5 analysis (particularly on an often-maligned but really quite good class), check the link in my sig! :smallbiggrin:

[An Enemy Spy]

I might be a little late to the party here but if you're interested in getting back into 3.5 I'm running a game that's missing a fourth player. DM me if you're interested.

[Pugwampy]

I might be a little late to the party here but if you're interested in getting back into 3.5 I'm running a game that's missing a fourth player. DM me if you're interested.

Do you live in Windhoek Namibia ? XD

[An Enemy Spy]

Do you live in Windhoek Namibia ? XD

I live in Washington State and have a player from California and two more from Australia. It's not a physical game.

[rel]

Use whichever system you have more fun with.

Tweak as your group sees fit, and borrow freely from other systems.

This rather succinctly sums up my own views on the subject.