3.5 Psionics - Epic Astral Constructs?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'm looking mainly at 3.5 psionics, since 3.0 and PF are so different in a lot of ways, although if there's anything revolving around PF 1e or even 3.0, I guess I could consider it.

Are there any options for constructs made from the astral construct power in levels 17+, especially at or after level 21? Later level ACs are a bit anemic when going up against Gargantuan and Colossal walking apocalypses, so more options at and after then would be quite useful. And I'd prefer adjuncts to the actual astral construct power, since so much of a build can go into optimizing that one power. Swapping over to that 9th level power that creates Gargantuan and/or Colossal constructs [edit: astral juggernaut] just takes all of that optimization and throws it out the window, since all the previous options tend to specify the astral construct power itself. So that won't work.

Also, searching the Mind's Eye archives is a bit difficult these days, since they no longer exist, and searching on the Wayback Machine isn't that great.

Thanks, everyone!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I doubt anything official exists. Most higher level and epic conjurations are effects like Gate that are only limited by what uber-powerful beings are published. I think you're stuck making a custom epic power, or homebrewing something.

If you were to homebrew a ~9th level power that accomplishes this, just make it say that any effect that applies to the Astral Construct power also applies to this power.

Or, since the SRD version of Astral Construct doesn't contain the CP nerf that limits you to one at a time plus most groups choose to ignore that, make a power that Voltrons several into one bigger construct.

Or, make a feat that allows you to simply manifest Astral Construct a second time to boost the first construct instead of making a new one. Something like, +1 HD and +1 round duration per 2 pp augmented, if you spend 16 or more +1 size, and it gains one more menu ability based on how many pp you spent to augment: A for 6+, B for 12+, C for 18+. Or, make that a Shaper ACF that replaces your 10th+ level bonus feat. If you have Personal Construct, you can manifest Astral Construct as a bonus action and then do it again twinned to buff it twice (at the start of your next turn, since it's normally a 1-round casting time).


Mind's Eye Archives (https://web.archive.org/web/20210729144949/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/psi)
3.5 Articles Archives (https://web.archive.org/web/20210729134101/archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archives)
Most of the links inside those should work.

[loky1109]

Also look here (https://web.archive.org/web/20161031215620/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20041029a). There two links on rar archives of almost all Mind's Eye column.

There is 3.0 feat to make several AC at once somewhere in the Mind's Eye (https://web.archive.org/web/20190913143851/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pse/20020727c), but it isn't epic enough I think.

[icefractal]

Yeah, that's a tricky one. I've found most summoning fall off at high levels of power (which can be well prior to Epic in an optimized group), for the same reason that they're good in low-power conditions - you mostly get what you get, and the improvements you can make are limited.

The closest thing I've seen be effective is "prepared minion summoning", where you get some strong minions, buff them up appropriately, then have them just chilling in a demiplane until you "summon" them with Gate (travel version, so no XP cost) or Wish (if you're in a teleport-blocked area). Or alternately, keep them on your person with a Smoky Confinement or the like.

[Prime32]

The Dual-Plane SummonsDr313 feat lets you manifest astral construct at half cost as you cast a summon monster spell, granting it whatever menu options the construct would have received.

Epic levels in the 3.0 Constructor PrC continue to reduce the cost of manifesting astral construct, and could be combined with Linked Power. If you get enough of them so out at once, then you could have them combine them into a mobDMG2.

You could also develop an epic power and ask the DM if astral construct boosts can apply to it.

A quick-and-dirty way to boost the stats of existing constructs could be "Add the multiheaded template by paying +2pp per point of CR increase". You could also try some mechanic which lets them combine their stats with other creatures - e.g. using them as vectors for your attacks and AoOs (using your BAB + Int if higher than their own stats), or letting your piscrystal "pilot" one (a la fusion).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Would researching an augment that grants +1 CR/LA's worth of templates that stack to the astral construct possibly work? Spend +10 pp and gain +5 CR/LA in templates? Since the astral constructs are crafted on the fly and not actual creatures, you wouldn't even need for them to technically even qualify for said templates, either. Adding lycanthropy to give your construct an alternate animal form, ability score bonuses, extra senses, extra movement modes, extra attacks, etc, for instance, even though constructs don't typically have the human or giant type. (It'd remain a construct regardless of type changes.) It's not like a lot of template requirements aren't completely arbitrary regardless.

[Morphic tide]

Are there any options for constructs made from the astral construct power in levels 17+, especially at or after level 21?
Technically speaking, as the Astral Construct power is not capped, 10th+ level Astral Constructs for 19+ PP "should" exist but are undefined. Writing up a guideline for these Epic Astral Constructs (even though 10th is technically pre-Epic) could easily supply an adequately scaling baseline.


If you were to homebrew a ~9th level power that accomplishes this, just make it say that any effect that applies to the Astral Construct power also applies to this power.
Alternatively, you can refer to Ecto Protection as an addon to the Construct with a separate Power, possibly directly so with Ecto Protection itself. I'd prefer to reserve that for updating the qualitatively-different Tether Hounds and Astral Taskers.


Or, since the SRD version of Astral Construct doesn't contain the CP nerf that limits you to one at a time plus most groups choose to ignore that, make a power that Voltrons several into one bigger construct.

Or, make a feat that allows you to simply manifest Astral Construct a second time to boost the first construct instead of making a new one. Something like, +1 HD and +1 round duration per 2 pp augmented, if you spend 16 or more +1 size, and it gains one more menu ability based on how many pp you spent to augment: A for 6+, B for 12+, C for 18+. Or, make that a Shaper ACF that replaces your 10th+ level bonus feat. If you have Personal Construct, you can manifest Astral Construct as a bonus action and then do it again twinned to buff it twice (at the start of your next turn, since it's normally a 1-round casting time).
All this could instead be handled with symbiotic Ectopic Forms or supplemental Powers, depending on how one wishes to parse effects.


Mind's Eye Archives (https://web.archive.org/web/20210729144949/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/psi)
3.5 Articles Archives (https://web.archive.org/web/20210729134101/archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archives)
Most of the links inside those should work.
To be specific, Astral Taskers (https://web.archive.org/web/20211007140320/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pse/20020727b) are a counterpart referring to body layout for statistics, this article (https://web.archive.org/web/20190913143851/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pse/20020727c) has a few feats including some Menu D options and extras of lower rank, with some more at the bottom of this article (https://web.archive.org/web/20130531112844/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030829a), this is the 3.0 version (https://web.archive.org/web/20161101194605/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20020727a) of the specialized PRC, this is the 3.5 version (https://web.archive.org/web/20161031215639/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b) of the same PRC, and this article (https://web.archive.org/web/20120201044626/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a) has the Shaper feat-replacing AFCs.

Since most of that is 3.0-exclusive, you can mine it for update shenanigans, like having Boost Construct replace Augment Construct as the prerequisite to Ecto Manipulation to restore the needed pair of menu options to be able to trade for an "over-level" option.


Swapping over to that 9th level power that creates Gargantuan and/or Colossal constructs [edit: astral juggernaut] just takes all of that optimization and throws it out the window, since all the previous options tend to specify the astral construct power itself. So that won't work.
Astral Juggernaut is part of DSP's PF1e Psionics, has a bunch of inbuilt shenanigans from the crunch support for argument-provoking weirdness from specially-shaped Constructs.


Would researching an augment that grants +1 CR/LA's worth of templates that stack to the astral construct possibly work? Spend +10 pp and gain +5 CR/LA in templates? Since the astral constructs are crafted on the fly and not actual creatures, you wouldn't even need for them to technically even qualify for said templates, either. Adding lycanthropy to give your construct an alternate animal form, ability score bonuses, extra senses, extra movement modes, extra attacks, etc, for instance, even though constructs don't typically have the human or giant type. (It'd remain a construct regardless of type changes.) It's not like a lot of template requirements aren't completely arbitrary regardless.
I think that this would more be a thing for an Ectopic Form mirroring Effigy Creature.

[ShurikVch]

Some more feats:
Augment Construction (https://web.archive.org/web/20161031221928/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20020426b)
Empower Construction (https://web.archive.org/web/20161101074711/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pse/20020208b)
Tainted Construction (https://web.archive.org/web/20190905233917/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pse/20021025a)


To be specific, Astral Taskers (https://web.archive.org/web/20211007140320/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pse/20020727b)
Note: this link is for Astral Tasker I - V; Astral Tasker VI - VII is there (https://web.archive.org/web/20200314182847/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd%2Fpsm%2F20031128a).

[Morphic tide]

Some more feats:
Augment Construction (https://web.archive.org/web/20161031221928/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20020426b)
Empower Construction (https://web.archive.org/web/20161101074711/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pse/20020208b)
Tainted Construction (https://web.archive.org/web/20190905233917/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pse/20021025a)

Augment Construction also appeared in Dragon #287, while Empower Construction is a slightly worse Boost Construct. Tainted Construction options are kinda bad if you don't introduce a way to bloat the Construct's HD, as the save DC just lags too far behind.


Note: this link is for Astral Tasker I - V; Astral Tasker VI - VII is there (https://web.archive.org/web/20200314182847/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd%2Fpsm%2F20031128a).
I was genuinely unaware that it went up to VII! That helps with cannibalizing!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I worked up a Colossal astral construct of 27 HD and with 61 Str and found that the numbers on it (aside from combat maneuvers and hp) really weren't much better than a level 9 Huge astral construct, which is kinda sad. The penalties for being that big are crippling. That means that simply increasing the size and strength isn't particularly reasonable for an epic astral construct. It needs a much larger boost in numbers and abilities to be viable. Astral juggernauts are definitely more impressive, even compared to an advanced Colossal astral construct.

How about something like the following:

Epic Astral Constructs [Epic] [Psionic]
Prerequisites: Level 21+, Boost Construct, Knowledge of the astral construct power
Benefits: When manifesting astral construct for 9th level constructs [gained through augmenting the power by +16 pp], you may choose to replace the Huge constructs with Gargantuan ones as listed below for no additional cost.

You may manifest the astral construct power to create astral juggernauts [as per the astral juggernaut power] through augmenting astral construct by +18 pp. They are considered 10th level constructs, and they have access to all of the menu abilities just as normal astral constructs do. In addition to the standard menu abilities noted in the astral juggernaut description, juggernauts gain 2 Menu D abilities*, as well. All feats, abilities, and effects that alter the astral construct power affect astral juggernauts just as they would astral constructs.

In addition to the above, add the following augmentation options to the astral construct power:
--For every +1 pp spent, the astral construct created gains the following: +1 HD, +1 bonus hp per HD, +1 Str, +2 Dex, and +2 Natural Armor. For every +2 HD gained in this way, the astral construct gains +10' racial bonus to all movement speeds and +5' of natural reach. For every +4 HD gained in this way, the astral construct counts as 1 size larger for the purposes of hp, ability scores, natural armor, reach, attack damage, and combat maneuvers to a maximum of Colossal, but either is reduced to 1 size smaller to a minimum of Fine or remains the same size, at the manifester's prerogative. Its attack bonus, Armor Class and the space it takes up [and other factors based on it, such as the ability to squeeze through smaller spaces] are calculated accordingly.
--For every +2 pp spent, the astral construct gains either a +1 CR's or +1 LA's worth of templates [which stack] that can be applied to it. Since astral constructs aren't actual creatures, the templates are applied metaphysically, and the construct need not actually qualify for the templates so long as the combined CR + LA of all templates is equal to or less than the number of pp spent divided by 2. The astral construct you create remains a construct and is considered an astral construct regardless of type changes.

[B]9th-Level Astral Construct
Size/Type: Gargantuan Construct
Hit Dice: 19d10+60 (164 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 50' (10 spaces)
Armor Class: 35 (+29 natural, -4 size), touch 6, flat-footed 35
Base Attack/Grapple: +14/+46
Attack: Slam +28 melee (3d6+22)
Full Attack: 2 slams +28 melee (3d6+22)
Space/Reach: 20'/20'
Special Attacks: --
Special Qualities: 2 abilities from Menu D, construct traits, DR 15/magic, darkvision 60', low light vision
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +6
Abilities: Str 51, Dex 11, Con --, Int --, Wis 11, Cha 10
Skills: --
Feats: --
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 11
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: --
Level Adjustment: --

*Menu D abilities are described in the Mind's Eye article: Expanding Your Mind: Construct Feats and Items.

The numbers could undoubtedly use some work, and that's probably a bit much for one feat (maybe split into two?), but it's a potential starting point.

[Morphic tide]

To better illustrate my point about simply filling in the undefined progression doing most of the needed legwork, the notoriously under-CR'd Dragons have non-Epic-specific stats cap at the CR 27 Great Wyrm Gold, with +51 to attack rolls, +75 to Grapple checks, and AC 42. At 27 PP, you're looking at a theoretical 14th level Astral Construct. Just +5 levels of 3 HD and +4 Str each gets to 44 HD with 63 Strength, and at this point Colossal is assured, giving us +33 BAB, +21 Strength modifier, -8 size modifier to AC and attack, and +16 Grapple modifier. That's hitting on anything but a 1, with a meaningful chance of winning the Grapple check, without touching the bloating Menu options or Ectopic Forms.

Oh sure, that 250 ft. Fly speed, triple-average treasure, 21 post-20th HD, and 19th level Sorcerer spellcasting gives plenty of ways to run them that isn't seriously hampered by "just extend the trend", but needing to try with a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon is one of the critical benchmarks that you're doing things right.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I know Mind's Eye has some menu D abilities, as well as some additional ones for all the menus, but a number of the abilities (new and old) don't scale particularly well. Or at all. Does anyone think it would be overmuch to overhaul the menu abilities to scale a bit better? Feats (such as Power Attack) and [Su/Ps] abilities that scale automatically, like basically anything that properly augments both the damage/defense and DCs, as applicable?

Seems to be quite a lot of work to make one pre-epic thing work in epic, but if it's something one can devote a large amount of build resources to in order to be one's main focus, it's worth doing for anyone that actually does that, I think.

Maybe make pre-existing [Su/Ps] abilities scale, rather than being static? Concussion blast and energy bolt are quite useful up until they aren't, which just makes those into complete wastes of ink once you start hitting enemies that have scaled outside of the numbers that ML 7 and ML 8 direct-damage powers can meaningfully affect.

Adding in menu options that allow your constructs to use any of your powers at will so long as they are manifested at your base ML (without bonuses) at a -5 ML penalty could work well enough, keeping them relatively weak but relevant, as it improves your action economy without being overwhelming, numbers-wise. Perhaps the ability to take one of your own feats as a bonus feat, forcing you to take relevant feats to give to your constructs if you want them to be useful. Stuff like that.

[Morphic tide]

Again, I think you're overdoing it "Because Epic". Most of Epic runs on fairly clear formulaic progressions, so whipping up an Epic Astral Construct progression covering the level-by-level changes tuned to what those formulae indicate is the "expected" rate of change for the "base load" of statistics and an ongoing source of variety by accruing ever more Menu options, then having the Menu D that refers to cover more good-scaling options like ML=1/2 HD blasting Powers and rendering Super Buff as a Constitution bonus analogue (stackable per-HD bonus HP), would do the job much cleaner than trying for a full panoply of Epic support.